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bmoffa
04-07-2007, 03:52 PM
A couple of times in desparation (after exhusting my machine guns) I have taken down some big aircraft with a lucky shot with an air to ground rocket. Does anyone know if it ever happend for real?

bmoffa
04-07-2007, 03:52 PM
A couple of times in desparation (after exhusting my machine guns) I have taken down some big aircraft with a lucky shot with an air to ground rocket. Does anyone know if it ever happend for real?

HuninMunin
04-07-2007, 03:55 PM
I can't give you some actual events but I can say that the R4 (those things on the Me-262) were intended for both the use against air and ground targets and were used against bombers.

Hanglands
04-07-2007, 04:02 PM
The R4 was primarily an air to air rocket, intended for bomber formations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R4M_rocket

DooDaH2007
04-07-2007, 04:10 PM
I think you have to adjust the delay for the explosion and put it to something like 3 seconds...

Then you can fire a rocket into a bomber formation and the explosion will kill them eventhough you didn't hit a bomber...

berg417448
04-07-2007, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DooDaH2007:
I think you have to adjust the delay for the explosion and put it to something like 3 seconds...

Then you can fire a rocket into a bomber formation and the explosion will kill them even though you didn't hit a bomber... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm pretty sure that some of the air to ground rockets in game are detonated by impact only.

DooDaH2007
04-07-2007, 05:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm pretty sure that some of the air to ground rockets in game are detonated by impact only. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most likly you are right...
I just mentioned it couse I read it somewhere...

tigertalon
04-07-2007, 06:43 PM
RS-82 (russian small rocket that we have in PF) was intended to be an air to air weapon. Late zeros also carry some small phosphorous rockets IIRC, while some german fighters can carry "stove pipes" - 21cm anti bomber rockets/mortars under wings.

M2morris
04-07-2007, 06:52 PM
Earlier today I hit a FW with some AP HVARS, what a lucky-shot! Heres some stills:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/planegeek/grab0001-1.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/planegeek/grab0003.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/planegeek/grab0005.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/planegeek/grab0006-1.jpg

Waldo.Pepper
04-07-2007, 06:56 PM
In combat people do what they have to. In North Africa the British threw rocks. Also during the Falklands war in 1982 the British, again (perhaps a pattern is emerging eh?) fired Milan ATGW at a Submarine, and at machine gun nests. So without looking into it I certainly believe that in desperate situations, desperate solutions were tried.

However, in game I think it is far too easy to achieve success with air to air rocketry. If it was that easy it would have been more common, especially later in the war.

M2morris
04-07-2007, 07:04 PM
Me and my wife recently watched the movie Flyboys, in one shot the German villian had a French leader shot-up disabled and clearly beaten. The German in his Tri-plane pulled up beside the French(American volunteer) pilot to take a look and to sneer-him at his death. The disabled and bloodied pilot pulled out a pistol and SHOT the German in his face! Good movie man.

Akronnick
04-07-2007, 11:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
In combat people do what they have to. In North Africa the British threw rocks. Also during the Falklands war in 1982 the British, again (perhaps a pattern is emerging eh?) fired Milan ATGW at a Submarine, and at machine gun nests. So without looking into it I certainly believe that in desperate situations, desperate solutions were tried.

However, in game I think it is far too easy to achieve success with air to air rocketry. If it was that easy it would have been more common, especially later in the war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unguided Air to air rockets were VERY common in the years immmediately following WWII. In the USAF, most if not all early jet interceptors used FFAR's (Folding-Fin Aerial Rockets) as their Primary A-A weapon. The F-86D (Radar equiped Interceptor or "Dog" Sabre), F-89, F-94 and F-102 all had unguided rockets as their Main weapon. (although the Scorpion had Genies and the Delta Dagger also had Falcon missiles)

The unguided rocket was relegated to A-G use when the U.S. Navy developed the first truly effective Air to Air Guided missile, the AIM-9 Sidewinder.

MrMojok
04-07-2007, 11:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M2morris:
Me and my wife recently watched the movie Flyboys, in one shot the German villian had a French leader shot-up disabled and clearly beaten. The German in his Tri-plane pulled up beside the French(American volunteer) pilot to take a look and to sneer-him at his death. The disabled and bloodied pilot pulled out a pistol and SHOT the German in his face! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But not before doing a complete barrel-roll around him! AMERICAN INGENUITY!

Waldo.Pepper
04-08-2007, 12:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Unguided Air to air rockets were VERY common in the years immmediately following WWII. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You post implies something about their efficacy. I think they were more common post war because there was little alternative - until guided missiles were developed. How else were you going to down Russian Bombers, with guns? Nope lots of unguided Air-to-Air rockets.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The unguided rocket was relegated to A-G use </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

... I think because of their inability to hit anything when used as Air-to Air weapons.

The F-89 Scorpion fired an incredible 104 rockets in a veritable shotgun blast of projectiles. One hundred and four in order to achieve a hit! The Genie was Nuclear tipped! So it would hit its target, even if it missed!

I think that the 104 rockets of the Scorpion were an attempt to copy the success of the R4M of WW2. You need a lot to get a hit. Unlike in the game.


-----

Alfred Price is justifiably sceptical about the efficacy of unguided air-to air rockets. His words are worth quoting at length. From WW2 Fighter Conflict pages 98-102.

"The Russians were the first to use air-to-air rockets during the Second World War. Their RS-82 was 3.25 inches in diameter, 24.5 inches long and weighed 15 pounds of which just under a pound was explosive in the warhead; this was sufficient for a single hit to have a good chance of destroying a bomber target. The missile was fused to explode on impact, and six were carried on underwing racks on the Polikarpov 1-16 and other Soviet fighters. Although some rather sweeping claims have been made for the success of this weapon in the air-to-air role, its all-burnt speed of 1,150 feet per second was not really high enough to give the flat trajectory required for this work; moreover a salvo of six was not sufficient to give a very high chance of a hit with the large dispersion errors that almost certainly existed. Probably the most reliable indicator of the effectiveness or otherwise of the RS-82 was that it was rarely if ever used in the air-to-air role during the latter half of the war. The German introduction to air-to-air rocketry during the Second World War, like their introduction to air-to-air bombing, began with a hasty improvisation. Purpose-built air-to-air rockets take a long time to develop, so when in 1943 the Luftwaffe found that it had an urgent requirement for its fighters to be able to hurl large amounts of explosive at the heavy bomber formations, from beyond the range of their defensive fire, it had to turn to the German army. The latter employed several types of rocket mortar of which one, the 21-cm Nebelwerfer 42, was suitable for modification for the air-to-air role. In the Luftwaffe the weapon was known as the Wgr 21; the spin-stabilised missile weighed 248 pounds at launch, of which 90 pounds comprised the warhead. A time fuse detonated the warhead at a preset distance between 600 and 1,200 yards from the point of launch, resulting in a lethal zone out to about 30 yards from the point of detonation. The single-engined Messerschmitt 109 and Focke Wulf 190 fighters could carry a single Wgr 21 in its tube launcher under each wing; the larger twin-engined Messerschmitt 110 and 410 types carried a pair of Wgr 21s under each wing. In combat, the performance of the Wgr 21 was disappointing. Its all-burnt speed of 1,020 feet per second was even lower than that of the Russian RS-82, and too low for accurate aiming. Moreover, as in the case of the air-to-air bombs, it proved extremely difficult for the pilot of the launching aircraft to judge the range so that they detonated in the right place; the majority of these missiles exploded harmlessly either short of the bombers or past them. As in the case of the air-to-air bombing attacks, the rare successes with the Wgr 21 rockets were usually spectacular: during one of the early attacks with these weapons, on July 28th 1943, the missile exploded almost directly underneath one B-17 causing it to swing into one and then a second of the bombers in the formation and resulting in the destruction of all three.

The only purpose-built air-to-air rocket to enter service in the Luftwaffe was the R4M Orkan (Tornado), which was used during the closing months of the war. It was 2 1/8 inches in diameter and just under two feet eight inches long, and weighed a little over 7.5 pounds. With an all-burnt velocity of 1,740 feet per second, the R4M was considerably more accurate than either of the other two rockets we have examined. Moreover, because it weighed so little, it could be carried in large numbers by fighters; the Me 262 jet fighter carried twelve of these missiles under each wing, on wooden racks. The usual method of attack with these weapons was to ripple fire the entire complement of R4M at the bomber selected as target, from a range of 600
yards; after launch the rockets diverged slightly, to produce circular pattern with a diameter roughly equivalent to the size of a four engined bomber at that distance. The R4M warhead was impact fused, and the explosive content weighed about a pound; this was sufficient four a single hit to give high probability of a kill against a heavy bomber.

During its short operational career the R4M proved highly successful, it did not, however, enable the German fighters to engage the American heavy bombers outside the range of their defensive fire. To fullfil this requirement the Rheinmetall Borsig company developed the R 100 BS, a large rocket weighing 242 pounds with a diameter of 8.25 inches and a length of just over 6 feet; the missile had an all-burnt velocity of 1,460 feet per second and a maximum effective range of about 2,000 yards. Tn overcome the knotty problem of accurate ranging, which had bedevilled the operations with the Wgr 21, the rather clever Oberon automatic firing system wn» produced for use with the R 100 BS.

The basis of Oberon was a simple radar set in the launching aircraft, with a fixed beam pointing forwards. Prior to the attack the pilot set the missile 'running time' on both its time fuse and the sighting computer. Once he had done this and armed the system, the pilot had only to hold the target in his gunsight. The radar continuously measured the range of the target, and the computer worked out the closing speed. When the fighter reached the firing range worked out by the computer, a pair of electrical contacts closed and the R 100 BS was launched automatically. The launching position was computed so that the missile, after having run for the previously-set time, was in a position about 85 yards short of the target when the time fuse detonated the warhead. The warhead comprised 460 incendiary pellets, which were blasted out in a cone-shaped pattern in front of the missile by a bursting charge; the pellets were designed to slice through the walls of the fuel tanks of the target aircraft and ignite the petrol.

The combination of Oberon and the R 100 BS constituted an effective and workable weapons system which was well within the state of the art in 1945. At the close of the war it was in full production, and it was intended that the Me 262 should carry five and the Me 410 six of these powerful rockets. There can be little doubt that had the Germans been able to get this weapons system into large-scale service it would, initially, have given the American daylight bomber crews a lot to worry about. But like almost any system employing radar, Oberon was vulnerable to countermeasures. Against attacks from the rear, bundles of'Window' metal foil dropped from the bombers would probably have caused premature firing of the missiles; to counter head-on or rear attacks, a jamming transmitter would have been effective in neutralising the ranging system."

Akronnick
04-08-2007, 02:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
You post implies something about their efficacy. I think they were more common post war because there was little alternative - until guided missiles were developed. How else were you going to down Russian Bombers, with guns? Nope lots of unguided Air-to-Air rockets.


quote:
The unguided rocket was relegated to A-G use


... I think because of their inability to hit anything when used as Air-to Air weapons.

The F-89 Scorpion fired an incredible 104 rockets in a veritable shotgun blast of projectiles. One hundred and four in order to achieve a hit! The Genie was Nuclear tipped! So it would hit its target, even if it missed!

I think that the 104 rockets of the Scorpion were an attempt to copy the success of the R4M of WW2. You need a lot to get a hit. Unlike in the game.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That wasn't my intent, FFAR, like the Genie, was a "hope this works" kind of thing. If Russian bombers ever had flown over the pole towards the US, the USAF interceptors would have fired their Genies at the first wave, fired their FFAR's at whatever got through, tried to drop their tanks on whatever was left, and when that didn't work rammed whatever else was still flying.

If only one bomber had gotten through, It would have been "The End"

Thank God they never had to put it to the test.

F19_Ob
04-08-2007, 02:46 AM
Russian unguided rockets were used for air to air frequently early in the war. They could be fused so the air to air use had been thought of and likely for downing bombers. I believe also before the war when assisting the chinese against the japanese.
Also in finnish material I remember it mentioned about the russian il-2's , I-153 and I-16. LaGG-3 and yak's carried rockets and I think mig-3 had them too but not sure.

Kocur_
04-08-2007, 05:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Russians were the first to use air-to-air rockets during the Second World War. Their RS-82 was 3.25 inches in diameter, 24.5 inches long and weighed 15 pounds of which just under a pound was explosive in the warhead; this was sufficient for a single hit to have a good chance of destroying a bomber target. The missile was fused to explode on impact </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, wrong - RS-82 intended for A2A work, like those used over Khalkin-Gol, were time fused. Impact fused RS-82 were intended for A2G use.

The very first use of unguided rockets against aerial targets took place actually during WWI, when Allied fighters used Le Prieur rockets against observation baloons.

Hanglands
04-08-2007, 06:19 AM
Le Prieur rockets

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/LePrieurrockets.jpg

MarkSynthesis
04-08-2007, 10:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M2morris:
Me and my wife recently watched the movie Flyboys, in one shot the German villian had a French leader shot-up disabled and clearly beaten. The German in his Tri-plane pulled up beside the French(American volunteer) pilot to take a look and to sneer-him at his death. The disabled and bloodied pilot pulled out a pistol and SHOT the German in his face! Good movie man. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, running on a Zepplin's top...maybe. This? No way in hell. Especially given the sort of revolvers they issued pilots to at the time.

Good fluff stuff though.

badatit
04-08-2007, 12:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MarkSynthesis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M2morris:
Me and my wife recently watched the movie Flyboys, in one shot the German villian had a French leader shot-up disabled and clearly beaten. The German in his Tri-plane pulled up beside the French(American volunteer) pilot to take a look and to sneer-him at his death. The disabled and bloodied pilot pulled out a pistol and SHOT the German in his face! Good movie man. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, running on a Zepplin's top...maybe. This? No way in hell. Especially given the sort of revolvers they issued pilots to at the time.

Good fluff stuff though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure there are alot of boys that could make that shot. Back then, probally alot more that could do it. Couldn't have been much over thirty yards. Even with the the movement of the planes.
But I think one shot would have been needed to adjust for wind. Then, empty the gun into his left goggle.
He probally could have done it from the back of a galloping horse at that range.

Waldo.Pepper
04-08-2007, 01:19 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/flyboys/waraces1930.jpg

Flyboys is clearly as accurate as any documentary. Just like 300! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif