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View Full Version : Dead horses, censorship, swastikas



XyZspineZyX
12-12-2002, 09:20 PM
Which horrible backwards countries are stopping the rest of the world for enjoying horses in Forgotten battles?

On a somewhat related topic, I am fairly certain the display of swastikas is forbidden in Germany. This makes sense, considering all the controversy and negative vibes surrounding swastikas. It is too bad that the fascist oppressors were defeated only for the Germans to have their freedom of speech taken away. Please hold your flames, I'm not a Nazi, just making a point /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Now as for our beloved dead horses, Oleg and others have said that killing animals would result in a "mature" rating in some countries. Apparently, there are countries that value the lives of virtual horses over the lives of virtual human beings who are already getting killed in this game.

It seems that making the swastikas turned off by default allowed the game to be sold in Germany. Blood and gore was turned off by default too, and I would guess that allowed the game a broader market as well. A good solution that satisfies everyone.

Would it be possible to have blood-free horses by default? It's probably too late to change things, anyway.

Absolute censorship is never the right answer!

The following picture is forbidden in Germany. Sorry, Germans, you'll have to cover your eyes or the P.C. police might arrest you or something. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif This is a lamp post in Glendale California, made in the year 1900.
http://www.manwoman.net/swastika/GlendaleLamppost.jpg

This next picture is of the Bamiyan Buddha in Afghanistan. Afghanis may freely observe this picutre, but the real statue was unfortunately blown up last year by the Taliban because they believed in censorship of symbols.
http://www.lexas.net/de/legacy/a/afghanistan/_media/bamiyan-buddha.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2002, 09:20 PM
Which horrible backwards countries are stopping the rest of the world for enjoying horses in Forgotten battles?

On a somewhat related topic, I am fairly certain the display of swastikas is forbidden in Germany. This makes sense, considering all the controversy and negative vibes surrounding swastikas. It is too bad that the fascist oppressors were defeated only for the Germans to have their freedom of speech taken away. Please hold your flames, I'm not a Nazi, just making a point /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Now as for our beloved dead horses, Oleg and others have said that killing animals would result in a "mature" rating in some countries. Apparently, there are countries that value the lives of virtual horses over the lives of virtual human beings who are already getting killed in this game.

It seems that making the swastikas turned off by default allowed the game to be sold in Germany. Blood and gore was turned off by default too, and I would guess that allowed the game a broader market as well. A good solution that satisfies everyone.

Would it be possible to have blood-free horses by default? It's probably too late to change things, anyway.

Absolute censorship is never the right answer!

The following picture is forbidden in Germany. Sorry, Germans, you'll have to cover your eyes or the P.C. police might arrest you or something. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif This is a lamp post in Glendale California, made in the year 1900.
http://www.manwoman.net/swastika/GlendaleLamppost.jpg

This next picture is of the Bamiyan Buddha in Afghanistan. Afghanis may freely observe this picutre, but the real statue was unfortunately blown up last year by the Taliban because they believed in censorship of symbols.
http://www.lexas.net/de/legacy/a/afghanistan/_media/bamiyan-buddha.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2002, 09:41 PM
America's fought

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2002, 09:44 PM
Blowing that statue was really a sacrilege! And I am no buddhist either.

Nic

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XyZspineZyX
12-12-2002, 09:49 PM
LOL Chaika, you can buy carpets fron India in Germany with that mirrored swastikas....

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"Wenn es scheint wie ein Stein, scheint es ein Stein zu sein..." <- Klingt komisch, iss aba so !

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2002, 09:54 PM
While I think you're right, Chaika, how do you rate your chance of changing the legislation in a number of nations with these articles? When politicians are set on fighting symptoms instead of real problems, there's little one can do, but to shake ones head in disbelief and sigh.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2002, 09:55 PM
Actually considering buddhists are very aware of the imperminance of everything and celebrate the fact daily, the blowing up of the statue was a very good lesson http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2002, 09:56 PM
I do agree though I would love to have the option of horses, and option of turning on and off blood/gore, I mean a cockpit filled with blood, would really add something special, or pilots splatting down etc. wow

RichardI
12-12-2002, 10:08 PM
Chaika-90:-
Why is it that you want swastikas in the game? What is missing without them? Is the game any less immersive? I don't get it? Please don't give me that old tired line about historical accuracy. The game is just as accurate without as with. The planes are still accurate. The swastika is offensive to a lot of people for very understandable reasons. Let's just leave it at that. If you can't understand why a lot of people don't want it, then I'm wasting my words anyway.
As for dead horses, are you serious? What would that add to this game? This game has class. Dead horses and swastikas would only detract from that.
BTW, I personally would not object to swastikas, but I can understand why a lot of people do, and I understand why 1C did not include them by default.
IMO

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XyZspineZyX
12-12-2002, 10:40 PM
They should add horses to Forgotten Battles but make them invincible. To destroy the carts you would just shoot the horse or any of it and it would register damage to the cart. Horses wouldn't die and the rating would stand plus horses would be there and there would be a point to take out these supply carts. Good idea? No? What do you think?

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2002, 10:44 PM
RichardI wrote:
- Chaika-90:-
- Why is it that you want swastikas in the game?

The game already has swastikas.

- I don't get it?

Apparently not.

- BTW, I personally would not object to swastikas, but
- I can understand why a lot of people do, and I
- understand why 1C did not include them by default.

I agree /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2002, 10:56 PM
Once FB comes out we'll all ahve the ability to use custom skins offline, I think then this swastika thing will become a dead issue.

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XyZspineZyX
12-12-2002, 11:01 PM
Wow,

talk about flogging a dead horse. Go outside and get some sunshine.

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XyZspineZyX
12-12-2002, 11:06 PM
Yeah really. Swastikas *are* a dead issue.

If people would bother to read before getting wrapped around the axle, they'd know this thread comparing the highly controversial /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif subject of dead horses with the relatively tame subject of swastika-censorship.

According to Godwin's Law, this thread was dead before it ever got started, though, so please feel free to carry on discussing swastikas if you wish. S!

XyZspineZyX
12-12-2002, 11:32 PM
chlywly wrote:
- I do agree though I would love to have the option of
- horses, and option of turning on and off blood/gore,
- I mean a cockpit filled with blood, would really add
- something special, or pilots splatting down etc. wow
-
-

Well there are no horses in IL2 ..

but the Blood and Gore feature is already there .. its a setting in your conf.ini, cant remember which one now (something like hi_gore=1 ???)but its pretty obvious when you spot it. Just set whatever it is =1 instead of =0

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 12:24 AM
I could care less about swastikas, IL2Stab already has that area covered, but killing horses? Sure it may be more realistic. But if your going to add horses...why not add women, children, dogs, cats, etc?

I am happy the way IL-2 is...sometimes censorship gets out of hand, but sometimes games can get out of hand as well, and I feel IL-2 is just right where it's at.

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 12:41 AM
Well the horse issue is complicated...

One one hand, killing virtual soldiers and pilots is different than killing virtual animals - soldiers volunteer and are aware of their potential fate when they sign on. Horses don't volunteer.

On the other hand - in Il-2 we are perfectly capable of bombing villages and other civilian structures. How come THAT doesn't get a violence rating?

On the third hand, I personally don't want horses just because they are complicated to animate and they'll inevitably slow down the game. Yeah I know it would be "switchable" if it were done - but if they were going to do something like that, I'd rather they make infantry /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif



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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 01:04 AM
Earwicker wrote:
- Well the horse issue is complicated...
-
- One one hand, killing virtual soldiers and pilots is
- different than killing virtual animals - soldiers
- volunteer and are aware of their potential fate when
- they sign on. Horses don't volunteer.
-

Where I live, there is thing called national service which means that you actually don't need to volunteer. It is obligatory (if unsure, ask the kind policeman, that came to take you to draft session when you forgot about it).

And sure as hell it was obligatory in 1940's Europe!



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 01:15 AM
A good simulation takes account of the sometimes huge difference between performance under fire of conscripts, elites and line troops.

In Napoleonics for example a regiment of Prussian jager may well stand when fired at by cannister at close range but your Landwehr will pretty like leg it for the hills.

A Waffen SS Panzer Division like totenkopf is going to stand up a lot better under fire then wehrmach equipped with the same tanks.

The difference between conscripts and ergular troops is not overlooked in most games.

- Where I live, there is thing called national service
- which means that you actually don't need to
- volunteer. It is obligatory (if unsure, ask the kind
- policeman, that came to take you to draft session
- when you forgot about it).
-
- And sure as hell it was obligatory in 1940's Europe!
-
-
-
--jippo

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 03:52 AM
I must laugh at this thread.

I made some observations earlier about the games' handling of geometry, lighting, and camera-depth/ view angle.

All of which actually add to realism in a real way.

And of course, all some folks worry about is simulated destruction of life and gravely mistaken political angles.

Funny world, this. Back to planning my virtual fly-in for January... Geeky, but so very non-offensive.

As a child, I was enthralled with the idea of flight. Through-out puberty, this all changed: Money and Women became top priority. Now that I'm in my 30's, I've realized that I have None of the Above. Untill someone writes a sex/money-simulator, I'll stick with IL-2.

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 04:37 AM
Horses were a huge form of transportation in the region and in WW2,you would see horse "convoys" carrying more equipment and troops then armored vehicle from a aerial view,I say enable them and make by default they are indestructable,so the censors review it in their fast and non indepth way and see the image doesnt show them getting hurt,since animals are so Godlike and supreme to human life,and then enable horse damage(lol) with a manual code change of 0 to 1 in the ini after we get the FB sim.

Swastica's, no comment,personally a non issue to me,I don't use them and if someone else does, so what.

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 04:45 AM
Is this not a War/Flight simulator? If you have a problem with a symbol, dont play it. Its just a game after all. No need to get offended by a game.

As for killing horses... I mean really... Its worse than a human being killed? If it happened in history, why not put it in?

History happened. I cant see why people are offended by history. I find it ignorant and immature to turn a blind eye to humanity's darkest moments like it never happened. Face it: There IS hate in the world and there always will be.

/end rant /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



Message Edited on 12/12/0210:47PM by DodgeGTS

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 05:44 AM
But if that is the case, then how come in Soldier of Fortune 1&2 you had to shoot dogs or they would kill you, same thing killing an animal........

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 06:04 AM
Dirk_Diggler1 wrote:
- But if that is the case, then how come in Soldier of
- Fortune 1&2 you had to shoot dogs or they would kill
- you, same thing killing an animal........
-


Well there are plenty of games that obviously don't care about ratings. You don't think GTA3 fans discuss this kind of nonsense, do you? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 06:31 AM
The rating that Oleg is trying to avoid with the horses is M15+

I suppose in a way, if all it takes to avoid a m15+ rating is to leave out horses which are going to be a FPS killer anyway, then why not leave them out

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 06:38 AM
Ok, what i've never understood is how is the swastica any different from the normal German cross markings? they both represent the German military, can someone clear this up for me, im lost

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 07:53 AM
For all the things IL2 might need. All you can come up with is "I want to kill horses" Perfect!

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 08:28 AM
'soldiers volunteer'
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 08:41 AM
Whitekid1786 wrote:
- Ok, what i've never understood is how is the
- swastica any different from the normal German cross
- markings? they both represent the German military,
- can someone clear this up for me, im lost
-

The iron cross stands for the german military, the swastika for "Dritte Reich". The german military is now on the "good" site, don´t forget that.
So the iron cross is just a symbol, that already served before the Third Reich. It stands only for the military and not for an unhuman crappy ideology.
I think swastikas should NOT be allowed in any country(except for india or their religion), because the people, that follow this ideology, could show their disrespect for the human rights in an easy way by using swastikas.They can easily influence children with it. It is easy to paint swastikas, and this could be the beginnig for some of them for a bad career.
It is just my opinion, and I want NOT to flame anybody, who want to use it, for the sake of clarity(in history).

(Sorry for my bad english)

Gute Jagd

michapma
12-13-2002, 08:58 AM
Whitekid1786,

As far as I have understood it, the iron cross is a long-standing symbol of the German military. It is still used today by at least the German air force. The swastika is also a very old symbol, but was for several unfortunate years adopted by and closely associated with the National Socialistic (Nazi) Party that started WWII and assasinated and tortured many, many people, bringing long-lasting shame to Germany. Because of its special adoption by the Nazi Party, in contrast to the iron cross which was already a military symbol before that party, the swastika today has a strong taboo and is banned (with exceptions) in many countries, I think mostly to discourage open neo-Nazi demonstrations, which often provoke violent reactions (probably intentionally).

Anyone please add or correct.

Regards,
Mike

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 09:06 AM
Chaika-90 wrote:
- The game already has swastikas.

Chaika, the game already has swastikas? Really? How do you get them?

Might that have something to do with this?

http://www.sturmovik.com/skin-Fw190A5-Schlacht-WhiteA.htm

Look at the screenshots. The top skin, White A, has the swastika painted on the tail as part of the skin, which is how it works for online play. But look at the bottom one; that one has a swastika too - in overlay form, like with the black crosses and Gruppe markings. If you download the skins and look at the bmps, you'll see that there's no swastika on the tail of that one. That implies that the game is placing it there. But the game doesn't do that... or does it?

I asked the webmaster about this and haven't yet received a reply. Can you shed any light on this?

--
"Swastikas are scary, guy!"
- Cal


EDIT: After further investigation I discovered Il-2 Stab, which, among other things, allows the display of swastikas on German aircraft. So... never mind.

Message Edited on 12/13/0201:49AM by NVAFRickyMartin

michapma
12-13-2002, 12:28 PM
I tried once or twice to implement swastikas with IL2Stab, but it didn't work.

Mike

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 01:26 PM
Earwicker wrote:
-
- Dirk_Diggler1 wrote:
-- But if that is the case, then how come in Soldier of
-- Fortune 1&2 you had to shoot dogs or they would kill
-- you, same thing killing an animal........
--
-
-
- Well there are plenty of games that obviously don't
- care about ratings. You don't think GTA3 fans
- discuss this kind of nonsense, do you?

In fact they do...... There are only adult humans in GTA3, people have been whining they want children and animals as well.... No swastika-whining though /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .



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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 01:43 PM
how about the good old Carmaggedon2? i once received 2000 pints for hitting(and killing) a dog with the back of the car while landing/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif In bulgaria, this game is still played by the less tha 14year-olds!

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 02:20 PM
Horses? Why bother?

Seriously, what can it add to the game? Realism? Such a minor detail is surely unimportant?

The game models flying and ground combat with tanks and trucks, things of military importance. Horses were one of the major forms of transport in the East, but that doesn't mean they must be included so you can destroy them. What challenge do they represent anyway? There is no Flak Horse or Katyusha Horse is there?

I firmly believe that there is absolutely no justifiable reason whatsoever to add horses to IL2.

Sm

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 04:24 PM
Ok... so why add trucks? what challenge to they pose? Kubelwagans.... personelle transports should all be removed because they dont shoot back? Why not take out the buldings out of the cities? Or instead hook up a giant 88mm flak gun to anything that is currently unarmed. The reason why this very game exists is because everyting in the game did exist.

The IL-2 crew wants to get as close to perfection as possible. Every tiny detail has to count. The makers of this game never do a half-*** job.

No justifiable reason? How about they were used during the war. You dont consider that a reason? Yall talk like there is no violence in war.



Message Edited on 12/13/0210:32AM by DodgeGTS

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 04:31 PM
You call being drafted volunteering?

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 04:46 PM
I am SERIOUSLY offended by RED STARS!
USSR attacked Finland with no good reason. Ban STARS now! Remove them from the game!

Well.. no. red stars are not banned in Finland nor in Russia. I can draw a red star.. that's it. Does it remind me about the millions of people Stalin killed? Not exactly..

I don't see what's the fuss with swastikas.. it's just a swastika. It's not like it jumps out of the monitor and kills you. If we can have red stars... why not swastikas?

Everyone seems to think nazis are bad when in reality, Stalin killed more than nazis ever did... huh?

And our country lost a huge amount of land to soviets that they still haven't returned and I don't see tons of people being offended by just hearing "Russia" or "Soviet Union". Propaganda?

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 05:24 PM
Well said Lukki.

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 05:50 PM
DodgeGTS wrote:
- Ok... so why add trucks? what challenge to they
- pose? Kubelwagans.... personelle transports should
- all be removed because they dont shoot back?

My opinion refers to ADDING horses. We already have trucks etc which of course i don't object to.

The point is, when a truck is destroyed, its contents, driver, fuel etc is destroyed with it, reducing force levels. You might feel that you have done some good against the enemies supply level. You also get a truck shape in the kill board graphic.

When shooting a horse and cart, you aren't shooting to kill the horse - you are shooting to destroy the cart and contents (wounded, whatever...). I don't see the point of adding something that will reduce FPS, give the game a warning to young children etc and be any more bloody than it need be when a truck carries the same amount, or more materiel.

Of course war is cruel. I read in "Swastka in the Gunsight" how a pilot strafed some 'fascists' who were bathing, without remorse. Do you propose this to be added as well?? Why not concentrate on getting the FM right, the AI right and every other detail right first?

By the way, i know horses were the most used form of transport for example by the 6th Army.

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 06:27 PM
Stalin killed more innocent people, like the Nazi's did to the Jews? This is a question, so you don't jump on me.

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 06:37 PM
michapma wrote:
-
- I tried once or twice to implement swastikas with
- IL2Stab, but it didn't work.

Did you leave it running while you played the game? I tried it, and it does work, but only while it's running in the system tray. If you turn it off and then start the game again, the swastikas disappear.

I don't know why it works like this... but it does.

I think that the best way for Maddox Games to have handled this would be to have a downloadable patch for those who wanted swastikas on the German planes, with a suitable disclaimer of course. The Russian version of the game apparently has them as part of the game anyway, so what's the big deal with making it a bit more accessible? The only ones who would see them are those who want to, on their own computers at home, and those who don't never even have to hear about the issue at all.

I don't understand why they didn't do that.


--
"Swastikas are evil, guy!"
- Cal (from Undergrads)

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 06:40 PM
I dont see your point. Where is the problem with attacking a supply line that just happens to be powered by horses? Lower FPS? Well your gonna need a behemoth of a computer in the first place to play FB.

About the rating.... Kids and Parents dont even pay attention to it. (Unless the kid is 7 yrs old.) So it wont hurt sales.


Strafing enemy soldiers while they were bathing was not a common occurance in WW2. But attacking supply convoys was a common practice.

So what if a truck carries the same amount if more material than a cart? Does that reduce the amount of carts thet were used during the war?

Is it just that you dont want virtual horses to be killed?

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 08:04 PM
JG50_Chute wrote:
- They should add horses to Forgotten Battles but make
- them invincible. To destroy the carts you would just
- shoot the horse or any of it and it would register
- damage to the cart. Horses wouldn't die and the
- rating would stand plus horses would be there and
- there would be a point to take out these supply
- carts. Good idea? No? What do you think?

Yeah, having the invulnerable horses ran away from the destroyed cart would be a good work around, I think.

C'mon Oleg! Imagine the fun we'd have watching guys kiss the dirt trying to shoot the invulnerable horses!


-- 777_Cossack_AVG (One day, you're terrorizing the Ukraine on horseback, the next day, flying a P-39!)

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XyZspineZyX
12-13-2002, 08:15 PM
Damn... everyone in this community loves watching Newbies f*ck up and crash. (Im currently somewhere between an average flier and a noob.)

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:28 PM
swastica

Be seeing you.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:50 PM
DodgeGTS wrote:
-
- History happened. I cant see why people are offended
- by history. I find it ignorant and immature to turn
- a blind eye to humanity's darkest moments like it
- never happened. Face it: There IS hate in the world
- and there always will be.

Same here, I got no Nazi convictions I would have liked the Swastikas on the Luftwaffe planes for realism and historical reasons...Not to mention more accuracy in the details.

Wouldn't you know it? I saw an Anime whose storyline was during WW2 in Europe, the main character was a Luftwaffe pilot and they decided to put a Swastika on ALL Luftwaffe Aircraft.

Like I care what the German government thinks on that issue.

The horses is also something that I had overlooked but it would have been interesting as well as the infantry.

What the heck is going on here? I just landed and it's full of Swastikas topics

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:03 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Stalin killed more innocent people, like the Nazi's
- did to the Jews? This is a question, so you don't
- jump on me.
-

Unfortunately, yes, Buzz... and you really can't accuse him of anything, cuz he didn't hold back... intellectuals, workers, "undesirables", jews, gypsies, POWs were all treated the same. And many of them died in a Godforsaken camp in Siberia. But since he was fighting for the "good" in this case.... no one said anything about it ( http://web.qx.net/jon/stalin.html).

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg

Message Edited on 08/07/0312:08PM by cuski

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:18 PM
Well even today historians are trying to debate on who was the worst between Hitler and Stalin, but yep since he was on the allies side nobody gave him any bad press, especially since he battled the bulk of the Wermacht with the Red Army and at least took on half of the entire Luftwaffe.

Without Stalin it's obvious that the British would have never won the war even with help from the US.

Btw Stalin also killed Chechens and Armenians as well as the rest of his usual victims, ever heard of the NKVD?