PDA

View Full Version : I just tried the 109G-2 and...



XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 05:45 PM
all i can say is wow...i love this thing!!!!!!!!!!!!1 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Steaks
375th FS

Is it Pets Mart...or Pet Smart????

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 05:45 PM
all i can say is wow...i love this thing!!!!!!!!!!!!1 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Steaks
375th FS

Is it Pets Mart...or Pet Smart????

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 06:25 PM
well Jippe /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 06:29 PM
Until that day comes when you fly it and you never get a kill and stall and dies everytime....then you hate it(I´ve been there or is it just me?) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_113_1062179367.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 07:03 PM
I love the G-2, there is something about it that sets it apart from anything else, I have been flying it exclusively for some odd reason, and it rocks.

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 07:10 PM
I also have just started flying this plane and i like it very much too! The only thing is it seems to take ages to down another plane -probably just my aim- the guns seem very weak. I usually get a player kill befoe the enemy breaks up.

"the empty can rattles the most"

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 08:00 PM
Yeah, the G-2 is sweat, it`s fast and climbs well. Not much less manouverable than the F-4, it`s only that you can`t be as much careless with the stick !

With an experienced pilot, this plane can hold it`s own even in 44/45 servers very well!

http://vo101isegrim.piranho.com/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 08:15 PM
It can be considered *the best 109* now.
Try it with 151/20 gunpods and you have the F4 maneuvrability(more or less) and the G6(G10?) punch.
I prefer it to any other 109.

<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 08:20 PM
gunpods make it heavy

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 08:24 PM
If you could get a nose-mounted Mk-108 on it, nobody would ever fly any of the later 109s again!!! I know I wouldn't

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 08:35 PM
Deathsledge wrote:
- gunpods make it heavy
-
Indeed, but as it is modeled now, it sacrifices a little performance for a fabulous firepower.
I like that exchange.
Somebody mentioned before that a Mk 103 cannon would be god.
I personaly don't like the M103/108. I profer tha 20mm, wich fires much faster.
the 30 mm cannonsfire like the 37mm on the P-39, but the cobra has 7mm more /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .
Anyway, if you have a good eye, all you is the nose cannon.


<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 09:24 PM
Who wouldn't like a uber G2? I think Oleg put the K4 FM on the G2.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 09:35 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Who wouldn't like a uber G2? I think Oleg put the K4
- FM on the G2
Maybe, but that bird is still great since the old Il2, and Fb1.0, when it was uch more weaker then now. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 09:42 PM
Yeah ppl always love the best planes.Sounds lame to me.

Anyway I don`t like G2,cuz it`s just as good as F4 but has no rear visibility.

"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 09:44 PM
The G2 has the firepower and speed of the later 109's with the maneuverability of the early 109's.

Boosher-PBNA
----------------
<center>Heaven is a place where the French are the cooks, the British are the butlers, the Germans are the mechanics, and the Swiss are the politicians. Hell is a place where the British are the cooks, the French are the butlers, the Swiss are the mechanics and the Germans are the politicians.<center>
<center>Boosher-ProudBirds-VFW<center>
http://proudbirdswing.tripod.com/proudbirds.htm

http://www.escadrila54.com/logo_sm.jpg

<center><marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"The ProudBirds..Flying High and Proud..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee>

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 09:51 PM
I wonder if they still like the G2 that much after the FM is fixed in the official patch.

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 10:00 PM
Oh, they love the uber G2 now that it is patched.

It can turn with any of the Yaks now, better than the F2/F4.

How that is supposed to be historically accurate flight modeling is beyond my comprehension.

Kudos to the Luftwhiners, you got what you wanted, they destroyed any semblance to historical accuracy and made an arcade game.

Budanova

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 10:49 PM
Nothing changed on the G-2, just Yak UFO's were turned into airplanes.

Be wary wary careful in them Yaks, at least until you learn how to fly.

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 10:59 PM
BfHeFwMe wrote:
- Nothing changed on the G-2, just Yak UFO's were
- turned into airplanes.
-
- Be wary wary careful in them Yaks, at least until
- you learn how to fly.
-
-

I gotta agree with you here.Since I fly it since Il2 I can say that isn't changed too much.
yes now in 1.1, you can actualy destroy something with the mg's, but the FM isn't alterated too much.
I think all these ppl are whineing just cuz now they can't simply take an Yak3 and destroy anything without any fear that they can be shot down.
on short, th VVS noob planes aren't so noob-ish aymore.

<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 11:02 PM
We wern't saying that at all. I don't think any of us fly the Yaks. What we are really saying is the G2 is the new Yak.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 03:54 AM
The G2 doesn´t have the firepower of the late 109´s since it doesn´t sport the mg131 13mm. IMHO adding those guns to it would be the ultimate. I know those flying in africa had the mg17 replaced by the mg131 on either the F4 or G2. I´ve read a similar thing on a custom armed 109 of Adolf Galland too. The G2 and F4 has otherwise exactly the same armament (I´m not 100% sure on the amount of ammo though).

It´s right you have not as good rearview as in the F4, but you have a little higher topspeed and much better climb. At least that was the case when we compared the G2 vs F4 in IL2 v1.2, the G2 reached altitide much faster.

I also think the G2 feels a bit more nimble now. I always have liked the feeling of "weight" you get compared with the F4/F2. Too me those F´s among with the Yak3 feels almost like a butterfly/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . So that "weight" immersion I think adds to its stability as a gunsplatform.

But I guess if you were to try any low speed acrobatics there would be a noticable difference between the G2 and the F´s.

/F16_Filur

Boosher-PBNA wrote:
- The G2 has the firepower and speed of the later
- 109's with the maneuverability of the early 109's.
-
- Boosher-PBNA



Message Edited on 08/31/0306:31AM by F16_Filur

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 04:18 AM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:
- I wonder if they still like the G2 that much after
- the FM is fixed in the official patch.

oh i will...i love this bird /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Steaks
375th FS

Is it Pets Mart...or Pet Smart????

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 08:55 AM
The G2 is a sweetie. Easily the best of the series.

The F4 *would* be nice if it didn't have those totally ridiculous stalls and flatspins thrown in the FM "for grins and giggles".

I can't find the sweetspot of trim to dial out that damned F4 snapstall. I can't find any mention of this phenomenon in any 109, to tell you the truth. The Emils don't have them. The Gustavs don't have them. Why the Franzes? They were the most aerodynamic of the series?

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 09:04 AM
90% of my time since the original demo has been in the G2 its a good plane now but not unless flown well you cant pull off deadly hits from 500m in the G2 unlike some of the VVS favourites, but if you have the initial advantage in height then its a hard bird to kill.
Its always been one of the top LW planes from the start and now the 20mm's actually pack some punch it no longer takes all your ammo to bring down the opposition.

JG4_Tiger

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 09:39 AM
Von_Zero wrote:
- I gotta agree with you here.Since I fly it since
- Il2 I can say that isn't changed too much.
-
- yes now in 1.1, you can actualy destroy something
- with the mg's, but the FM isn't alterated too much.
-
- I think all these ppl are whineing just cuz now
- they can't simply take an Yak3 and destroy anything
- without any fear that they can be shot down.
-
- on short, th VVS noob planes aren't so noob-ish
- aymore.

What a load of crap.
Your just afraid your new baby will be corrected.

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 09:41 AM
Steaks_361st wrote:
-
- Cappadocian_317 wrote:
-- I wonder if they still like the G2 that much after
-- the FM is fixed in the official patch.
-
- oh i will...i love this bird /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- Steaks
- 375th FS

Same here, I like the G2 as well, but not how it is now so until it's fixed I am not going to fly it online.

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 09:53 AM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
- Yeah, the G-2 is sweat.....



http://forums.ubi.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



Try some deodorant.





"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 10:37 AM
I never liked the G2 myself. I love the Emil nd F4. Great early war birds!

Gib

I am now accepting donations to help get the PBY flyable.

<center><form action="https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr" method="post">
<input type="hidden" name="cmd" value="_xclick">
<input type="hidden" name="business" value="gibbage@lycos.com">
<input type="hidden" name="item_name" value="Gibbages IL2; FB PBY Catalina Fund">
<input type="hidden" name="no_note" value="1">
<input type="hidden" name="currency_code" value="USD">
<input type="hidden" name="tax" value="0">
<input type="image" src="http://gibbageart.havagame.com/donations.gif" border="0" name="submit" alt="Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure!">
</form></center>

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 10:53 AM
I only fly the F4 because all the later 109s seem like they can only fly up and down and corner like a brick.

I would fly the G2 if it weren't for that awful visibility. I'm pretty certain that the pilot could turn his head and lean a little more to see a tiny bit more past the sides (not in the game though, I have pictures of a G2 that I photographed in a museum) but the head guard is what really spoils the view and there was no getting past that in real life either!

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 11:16 AM
In Bf109G2 you don't need looking back (at least on 42 servers), your REVI is in the direction you are supposed to have a look....

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 12:08 PM
the G2 speed and climb abilities are very very close to
2 independent flight test made in germany with an G1 and in finnland with an G2 (MT-215).

compared to the g2, the g6,g10,g14 are way off the reality

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 12:47 PM
Wastel is right here.
I first thought too that it is overmodelled.
German and Finnland test give it this climb time:

German:
geflogen mit kampf&steigleistung=1.3 ata=100% in il2-FB

speed auf: steigzeit auf:
0m->525
1k->544 47sec
2k->563 1:35
3k->583 2:24
4k->602 3:16
5k->622 4:11
6k->642 5:14
7k->649 6:23
8k->648 7:46
9k->643 9:36
10k->630 11:54
11k->609 15:41
12k->555 24:02

the test from Finnland:

1k->ca45sec
2k->1:25
3k->2:20
4k->3:12
5k->4:06
6k->5:05
7k->6:15
8k->7:40
9k->9:30
10k->12min


all this test where made with 1.3 Ata wich is 100%.
The 109er in Finnland where locked to 1.3ata but not the German G2.

This is what the G2 can do ingame:

109G2 with 1.4ata 110%
5000m-3:33
7000m-5:11

with 100% on 1.3ata with all controls at Auto

5000m-4:25
7000m-6:29min
5000m-7000m=2:04min

as you can see the climbtime of the G2 is very close to the real.It is even a little to slow to 5000m but very close to the real plane to 7000m.

So saying that it is overmodelled in climb is not real!
As example many FW190A and the La5-7 series is overmodelled by 1min to 5000m!!
Even if 1.4 ata would be not an option for G2 in real at 1942-early43 it would only be overmodelled with 30sec!

It is a brutal plane now in 42-43 servers.But it climb is much closer to real things than most other planes are!

Climbtime from La5 1942 serie to 5000m in game:
La5-4:42min
La5F-4:50min

La5FN had a climb time of 4:43min and La7 of 4:30min with forzah in real.As you can see La5 climbs as good as La5FN should!

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 01:41 PM
Good work Col.Kurtz, seems like the G2 climbrate is very close to what it was IRL. Too bad for the VVS whiners.

"I find your lack of brains disturbing"
http://ourworld.cs.com/Demolisher%20SWE/signature01.jpg
Former Würgerwhiner extraordinaire

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 01:55 PM
Col.Kurtz wrote:
- Wastel is right here.
- I first thought too that it is overmodelled.
- German and Finnland test give it this climb time:
-
- German:
- geflogen mit kampf&steigleistung=1.3 ata=100% in
- il2-FB
-
- speed auf: steigzeit auf:
- 0m->525
- 1k->544 47sec
- 2k->563 1:35
- 3k->583 2:24
- 4k->602 3:16
- 5k->622 4:11
- 6k->642 5:14
- 7k->649 6:23
- 8k->648 7:46
- 9k->643 9:36
- 10k->630 11:54
- 11k->609 15:41
- 12k->555 24:02
-
- the test from Finnland:
-
- 1k->ca45sec
- 2k->1:25
- 3k->2:20
- 4k->3:12
- 5k->4:06
- 6k->5:05
- 7k->6:15
- 8k->7:40
- 9k->9:30
- 10k->12min
-
-
- all this test where made with 1.3 Ata wich is 100%.
- The 109er in Finnland where locked to 1.3ata but not
- the German G2.
-
- This is what the G2 can do ingame:
-
- 109G2 with 1.4ata 110%
- 5000m-3:33
- 7000m-5:11
-
- with 100% on 1.3ata with all controls at Auto
-
- 5000m-4:25
- 7000m-6:29min
- 5000m-7000m=2:04min
-
- as you can see the climbtime of the G2 is very close
- to the real.It is even a little to slow to 5000m but
- very close to the real plane to 7000m.
-
- So saying that it is overmodelled in climb is not
- real!
- As example many FW190A and the La5-7 series is
- overmodelled by 1min to 5000m!!
- Even if 1.4 ata would be not an option for G2 in
- real at 1942-early43 it would only be overmodelled
- with 30sec!
-
- It is a brutal plane now in 42-43 servers.But it
- climb is much closer to real things than most other
- planes are!
-
- Climbtime from La5 1942 serie to 5000m in game:
- La5-4:42min
- La5F-4:50min
-
- La5FN had a climb time of 4:43min and La7 of 4:30min
- with forzah in real.As you can see La5 climbs as
- good as La5FN should!
-
-
-
-
-

so obviously i think g6,g10&g14is undermodeled but why nobody care about this?

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 02:03 PM
Of course we care... anything that makes the sim closer to the truth in real life makes it so more interesting. Every step away from the arcade game is good, be it in favour of the VVS or Luftwaffe - who cares!

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 02:04 PM
because no one is interested in.
beta testers told it to maddox long ago, nothing happened.
then there is this luftwhiner thing.
try to say something, even with real datas and facts..you will be allways one.
lot of people with knowledge are quiet now because of this.

luftwihners you see now in the boards are guys with no real knowledge or bad bad sources

wastel

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 02:10 PM
Hey Stiglr, this snapstall is modelled on the F2 as well right? Just flew it at the Greatergreen server and the damn thing just flipped over when I made a medium hard righthanded turn at about 300km/h. Not used to it since I mostly fly the G´s. But the sound of the 15mm alone is lovely/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . A bit like the mk103 in a way...


Stiglr wrote:
- The G2 is a sweetie. Easily the best of the series.
-
- The F4 *would* be nice if it didn't have those
- totally ridiculous stalls and flatspins thrown in
- the FM "for grins and giggles".
-
- I can't find the sweetspot of trim to dial out that
- damned F4 snapstall. I can't find any mention of
- this phenomenon in any 109, to tell you the truth.
- The Emils don't have them. The Gustavs don't have
- them. Why the Franzes? They were the most
- aerodynamic of the series?
-
-

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 02:13 PM
so i ask who have the real datas show it to us and oleg.even i havnt but i think i have the right to say something.

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 02:16 PM
Performance-wise, the G2 was always the best 109 in the game, even in the original IL2; the patch didn't change that. It isn't totally uber, however, since it's armament is only adequate. The 13mm guns on later 109s are a big improvement over the little doorknockers. Stick gunpods on it and it can do some damage, but then the performance tapers off. However great the G2 is, I think the Emil is even more relatively superior to its Red contemporaries.

I've found that the best counter to the early 109s (which always outclassed most of their Soviet contemporaries in this sim) is the Mig. Every one laughs at the Mig, makes the obvious burning jokes--but it's the only early Russian bird that can match the 109s at BnZ. With gunpods the Migs can do serious damage. And there's the MigU, which I know wasn't actually produced in quantity, but that thing can give the 109G2 a run for the money.

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 03:01 PM
Demolisher_ wrote:
- Good work Col.Kurtz, seems like the G2 climbrate is
- very close to what it was IRL. Too bad for the VVS
- whiners.

I agree that there are more planes that have incorrect climbrates and the G2 is among them.
So for pointing that out in a thread about the G2 I am a whiner because?
I have never said that the "Red" planes are correct in a climb, all I said was that the G2 as it is now is not completely correct.

Besides, it's not 30 seconds off, I just made a test myself and climbed to 5000 meters in 3.09 minutes.

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 03:11 PM
Cappadocian

You need to tell us how you performed the climb before simply stating that you made it to 5k in 3.09.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/rcafpost.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 03:12 PM
Cappadocian, read Col Kurtz data again. The FB G2s climbrate matches the real historical figures very well. The G2s climb is NOT overmodelled. It's historically accurate.

"I find your lack of brains disturbing"
http://ourworld.cs.com/Demolisher%20SWE/signature01.jpg
Former Würgerwhiner extraordinaire

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 03:32 PM
Demolisher_ wrote:
- Cappadocian, read Col Kurtz data again. The FB G2s
- climbrate matches the real historical figures very
- well. The G2s climb is NOT overmodelled. It's
- historically accurate.

Maybe you need to read it again, even Col Kurtz numbers are not historicly accurate since it's 3.33 and the correct figure should be 4.11.

Your lack of reading is really well modelled.

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.jpg </center>


Message Edited on 08/31/0303:33PM by Cappadocian_317

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 03:40 PM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:
- Maybe you need to read it again, even Col Kurtz
- numbers are not historicly accurate since it's 3.33
- and the correct figure should be 4.13.
-
- Your lack of reading is really well modelled.

4:13 is correct for 100% and 1.3ata

G2 was able for 1.4 ata what is 110% in FB.

I testet many speeds and angels but 3:30 is the maximum at fullpower with useing of Auto Prop.

My test was made with 300Km/h IAS starting speed at 100m high.Climbspeed was 280-260Km/h IAS(260 Km/h at highalt)

The tests from Finnland where with 270 IAS the Germans betwenn 270-300 Km/h.

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 03:46 PM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:
- Demolisher_ wrote:
-- Cappadocian, read Col Kurtz data again. The FB G2s
-- climbrate matches the real historical figures very
-- well. The G2s climb is NOT overmodelled. It's
-- historically accurate.
-
- Maybe you need to read it again, even Col Kurtz
- numbers are not historicly accurate since it's 3.33
- and the correct figure should be 4.11.
-
- Your lack of reading is really well modelled.

You need to read more carefully yourself Capp. Kurtz's figures say 4min 11 secs from German tests and 4min 6 sec from Finnish test. This is at 100% power. That is also how the game's object viewer arrives at it's figures.

Kutz's in-game climb of 3.33 was at 110% power, not 100%, thus the improved time.

Edit: (You're quick on the keyboard Kurtz) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/rcafpost.jpg

Message Edited on 08/31/03 10:48AM by Chadburn

Message Edited on 08/31/0310:49AM by Chadburn

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 03:47 PM
guys, you have to read the times AND the infos about the tests!!!!

the 4 minutes to 5000 is with 1.3 ata=100% in il2!!!!
and!!!! radiator open to 2500m!!!!!

you guys must test with this settings!!!!

wastel


PS: if you test it with the historical settings! the 109g2 is close to the hisorical tests!

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 04:59 PM
- 4:13 is correct for 100% and 1.3ata
-
- G2 was able for 1.4 ata what is 110% in FB.


In real life, the 109G2 was limited to a max of 1.3ata until June 1943, because of problems with the engine.

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 05:25 PM
Someone types out a bunch of numbers, and you all take it as gospel? I'm not saying he's wrong, but I need better proof.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 05:28 PM
My online expierence: When the russians are knocking at your door, bust out hte G2 and send em hoke crying in their La7's and Yak3's. Only thing those planes have on the G2 is top speed, but usually they just want to yank and bank/make all things equal. The G2 can out turn those birds if flown properly, and the La7/Yak3 can out turn the G2 if flown properly. Really even match.

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 05:36 PM
Elfunko

Just so I have this straight. I don't want any misunderstandings. In real life. The G2 was equal to the Yak3/La7 in a dogfight?

btw..I don't fly Russian planes.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 05:47 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Elfunko
-
- Just so I have this straight. I don't want any
- misunderstandings. In real life. The G2 was equal to
- the Yak3/La7 in a dogfight?
-
-
- btw..I don't fly Russian planes.
-
- 25th_Buzz


He didn't say that, Buzz. He's talking about in the game. There are lots of virtual VVS pilots who think all they have to do is yank and bank and they should be able to evade any LW plane.

They are generally the less-experienced ones who then go on to complain that LW planes are over-modelled in their turn abilties.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/rcafpost.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 06:07 PM
Wait a minute! You can't have it both ways. They take the figures of the game G2 and compare it to the real plane. If it's close, then it's ok. Even if it's overmodeled compared to the other planes?

If your going to say the FB G2 is right compared to the real plane. Then it's fair to compare it to the the real Yak3/La7. If the real G2 could beat the Yak3/La7, then it's fair to have the FB G2 beat the the FB Yak3/La7.

If it couldn't. Then something is wrong in FB. Either the G2 is overmodeled, or the other planes are undermodeled.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 06:10 PM
actually, i prefer the BF-109G-6 A/S with an armament of the MK:108 nose cannon.



<Center>
<table>
<tr>
<TD align="center">
<font color="WHITE">"If one must kill or be killed. It must be done with dignity" (The famous words of Adolf Galland)</font>
</TD>
</TR>
<tr>
<TD align="center">
http://www.d-n-i.net/images/f-22_ote.png
</tr>
</TD>
<tr>
<TD>
<center><font color="white">***F/A-22 Raptor***</font></center>
</TD>
</TR>
</table>
</CENTER>

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 06:24 PM
Lt. Steaks get out of that Jerrie bird now and back in your Jug or I will ground you indeffinately! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif For those of you who don't know I am joking. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
The G-2 has replaced the F-4 as my favorite 109 since FB came out. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Steaks go try the FW190A-9 and be prepared to be amazed.
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center> <center> www.361stvfg.com</center> (http://www.361stvfg.com</center>)
<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1003.jpg

</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 06:33 PM
To F16 Filur:

Yes, both Franzes have what I call Oleg's "Bullsh** Stall" (usually uttered right after it happens) tossed into the FM with no historical justification for it.

The Focke Wulf should have that tendency to pull you out of a right hand turn and flip you left onto your back....if you don't fly carefully and coordinated with the rudder. But not the 109s.

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 06:40 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Wait a minute! You can't have it both ways. They
- take the figures of the game G2 and compare it to
- the real plane. If it's close, then it's ok. Even if
- it's overmodeled compared to the other planes?
-
- If your going to say the FB G2 is right compared to
- the real plane. Then it's fair to compare it to the
- the real Yak3/La7. If the real G2 could beat the
- Yak3/La7, then it's fair to have the FB G2 beat the
- the FB Yak3/La7.
-
-
- If it couldn't. Then something is wrong in FB.
- Either the G2 is overmodeled, or the other planes
- are undermodeled.
-
-
- 25th_Buzz
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- <center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg
-
-

Or perhaps the pilot is undermodeled? I'm not defending the G-2, I even think that they moved on to the later 109's for a reason, or else there would be G-2's until the end of the war, wouldn't there?

I just wanted that hey gave a lil'o boost in my G-10, the poor thing is anemic /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/reincarnation.jpg (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
Are you damned? (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
<

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 06:50 PM
Buzz, "They" didn't say the real G2 was able to defeat the Yak3 or La7. Elfunko alone in this thread said, "Only thing those planes have on the G2 is top speed, but usually they just want to yank and bank/make all things equal. The G2 can out turn those birds if flown properly, and the La7/Yak3 can out turn the G2 if flown properly. Really even match."

Online players who turn too much or bleed off too much speed as sometimes happens when vulching a base, are susceptable to being shot down. Even if they are in Yak 3 or La7 and the opponent is in a G2 or earlier 109.





http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/rcafpost.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 07:01 PM
The truth is, the G2 is more than a match for the late Russian planes in FB. I have to wonder how accurate this is?

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 07:03 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Wait a minute! You can't have it both ways. They
- take the figures of the game G2 and compare it to
- the real plane. If it's close, then it's ok. Even if
- it's overmodeled compared to the other planes?
-
- If your going to say the FB G2 is right compared to
- the real plane. Then it's fair to compare it to the
- the real Yak3/La7. If the real G2 could beat the
- Yak3/La7, then it's fair to have the FB G2 beat the
- the FB Yak3/La7.
-
-
- If it couldn't. Then something is wrong in FB.
- Either the G2 is overmodeled, or the other planes
- are undermodeled.

No, that is an entirely fallacious way to approach the issue. Aircraft do not "beat" other aircraft. Pilots beat other pilots. There are too many other factors to attribute victory in a fight only to aircraft performance. Aircraft performance should be modelled to match historical data and nothing else. Otherwise, you enter into the dangerous realm of "balancing."

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 07:34 PM
A.K.Davis

It can be done. As an example. Find a pilot that is close to your skill. One takes a Yak3, and the other takes the G2. Have 10 fights, and keep track of the results. Then switch planes, and do the same. This will give you an idea of which plane is better, or at the very least if they are equal.

My point in this thread is you can't mix real life performance with game performance. You need to decide how the real planes performed against the other planes in the war. Then see if they have the same balance in the game. It doesn't matter so much how they compare to the rel planes performance, as much as how they perform against the other planes in the game.

In a perfect world. We would have perfect FM's in the game, and then we just let the planes perform against other planes as they did in real life. Since this seems impossible. It's easier to adjust the FM's so they perform against each other as they did in real life.

So, I ask the question again. Should a G2 be able to beat a Yak3/La7?

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 08:10 PM
- So, I ask the question again. Should a G2 be able
- to beat a Yak3/La7?

How should this question work???
Every plane has its strong points!
Example:
At 5000m the G2 can beat both easy in climb!The La7 maybe at 3000m!
But you can also say:
La7 and Yak3 are superior at Speed
So both can runaway or hunt the G2 easy!
If they are faster they also can zoomclimb higher!

Yak3 and La7 could outurn G2,but could it be made in 2 turns by simple pull stick back???

The FM must be made by performace of the Realplanes as good as it is gets.

If a G2 needs 5min to 5000m it is simple wrong.And it should match the real specs as close as possible.

The G2 was in realife better in Climb to 5000m than the La7.
So why should the G2 be unable to win?
Does the G2 Pilot sticks to the strongpoints of his plane he will win.
Does the La7 Pilot stays fast and dont bleed energie the G2 will be unable to climb away and should "if" the pilots are simular in skill be beaten.

I think the greates Problem for VVS Pilots is now not the Performance of turning or Climbing of the Planes,the real problem for them is the dive performance of the 109.So at alt the 109 can dive away and use the speed in zoomclimb.
The La7 Pilot is limited to a max. Speed of 660IAS the 109 Pilot can use 800 IAS.

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 08:30 PM
Col.Kurtz wrote:
- Cappadocian_317 wrote:
-- Maybe you need to read it again, even Col Kurtz
-- numbers are not historicly accurate since it's 3.33
-- and the correct figure should be 4.13.
--
-- Your lack of reading is really well modelled.
-
- 4:13 is correct for 100% and 1.3ata
-
- G2 was able for 1.4 ata what is 110% in FB.
-
- I testet many speeds and angels but 3:30 is the
- maximum at fullpower with useing of Auto Prop.
-
- My test was made with 300Km/h IAS starting speed at
- 100m high.Climbspeed was 280-260Km/h IAS(260 Km/h at
- highalt)
-
- The tests from Finnland where with 270 IAS the
- Germans betwenn 270-300 Km/h.

I made my test with 100% power, the only thing I had to do is close the radiator to obtain the numbers.
I made a climb to 6000 meters in 4.09 minutes like this and the engine didn't overheat.
The G2, like many other planes on LW and VVS side can obtain better climb rates like this in the game.
Many LW flyers here don't use the automatic controls because they can get more power out of their plane with manual control, I didn't even use manual prop pitch in my test but I am sure when used right it can go up even faster.

So basicly what people see online is "Ufo" like behaviour because of this "feature".

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/banners/Giobanner.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 08:33 PM
Well I spent the whole of Sunday flying the G2 and now I am a convert /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif no more F4 for me, I started a campaign on full real and shot down 5 enemies in the first mission, now I really love the plane, with Track IR and a spiral climbs it's not that bad if your six isn't as visible as in other 109's. I've got to stop playing this game and get a life I hardly leave my room anymore /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 09:14 PM
25th Buzz rhetorically asked:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So, I ask the question again. Should a G2 be able to beat a Yak3/La7?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Those two late model VVS planes are simply more powerful, better designs than the 1942 Gustav G2/G4. Even when you figure that the G2 will gain some on these planes above 4KM, they're that much better down lower that the "high alt" factor will not sway things for the G2 pilot the way it might with, say a early Yak 9 or La5.

Given equal pilot ability, the Lavochkin and Yak 3 should win the majority of the time.

This is not to say a Gustav 2 can't ever shoot down a La7 or Yak3. If the VVS pilot's a greenhorn, or flies stupidly, he can be had by a cagey G2 pilot.

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 09:14 PM
Col.Kurtz wrote:
the 109 Pilot can use 800 IAS.
actualy, IIRC 109 G2 dive speed was limited to 770km/h IAS, but it doesn't make much difference since the diff between 109 and La7 is more then 100kph.
Buzz, you asked earlier for a better proof.

Romanian pilots flew 109 versions from E3 to G-10(G-14?), most of them considered the G2 and G4 version to be the most "thrustable" 109.
In Romanian Af almost all G2 were used with 200mm gunpods and they scored kills even against P-51.
Romanian top ace, Constantin Cantacuzino, prefered the G-2 , and (due to the fact that he was an ex-aerorobatics pilot b4 the war) he sometimes entered turn fight with soviet pilots.
Buzz, I don't understand the part with the balance,....
If we compare ALL planes like in RL, and therefore obtain the correct balance for RL, and then we modell al plane on the same basis, wouldn't get the same balance?
The G2 appears to be modeled right, but also some VVS plane are more or less modeled right. Howcome we don't have the same balance?
Anywa, you ppl stop argueing, or Oleg in a desperate gesture to satifie you will destroy the Historically G2(wich is now) and we will get the p-26 FM instead!
I heve the feeling that somebody already sended some reports to Oleg to informe him that the G-2 it's too *GOOD*.....hmmmm.


<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 10:15 PM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:
- I made my test with 100% power, the only thing I had
- to do is close the radiator to obtain the numbers.
- I made a climb to 6000 meters in 4.09 minutes like
- this and the engine didn't overheat.

Im unable to reproduce this.
If i close radiator i get only 15sec less time than opened at 100%
Please post a track to back this up.

What was your constant climb and startingspeed?
I flown with 300Km/H IAS startingspeed at 100m Smolensk map in Summer in QMB.
With a wintermap you will get wrong data.

300-260KM/H IAS substained climbspeed.At about 5000m i hold 260IAS.

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 10:31 PM
I never whine to Oleg. I'm sure someone will though. I just want to see the planes in good balance to each other, as they were in real life. I'm so freaking sick of hearing uber/noob handle being put on every good plane. I may say it sometimes to rag on someone who is getting cocky, but the bottom line with me is I want the planes as they were in real life. With the proper balance to each other.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 10:52 PM
Yhea, the G-2 is probably the most loveable 109 there is (I named mine Marlene, LOL!)

If I could change it to be how I wanted it i'd put the G-6/AS canopy and MW-50 system on it.
Maybe even thow in the MK-108 as an option....

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Now, could you ppl all just shut up!?! The G-2 is perfect, so no more complaining!


Message Edited on 08/31/0309:58PM by VOL_Jon

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 11:07 PM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:

- Many LW flyers here don't use the automatic controls
- because they can get more power out of their plane
- with manual control, I didn't even use manual prop
- pitch in my test but I am sure when used right it
- can go up even faster.
-
- So basicly what people see online is "Ufo" like
- behaviour because of this "feature".

*Sigh* You can't get "UFO" performance from LW planes using manual prop pitch! If you are very careful and run your plane close to the edge, you get better performance than the auto-prop system we are stuck with in FB. So when you are fighting you must manage throttle, prop pitch, and rad positions all the while trying to manoeuver your plane.

On the other hand, you can hop in a VVS plane, set throttle and prop pitch to 100% and never worry that your missing top performance.

The general drift seems to be that if you can't easily down an LW plane in your late model Yak or La, then something must be terribly amiss in the game. The Finns used the G2 model until the end of their war with Russia, Sept. 4, 1944. Finnish aces Like Hasse Wind and Ilmari Juutilainen engaged many later model VVS planes, and Juutilainen even downed a P-51 in his G2. Of course, these were ace pilots, but flown properly, the G2 is not entirely out-classed by later model allied planes.




http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/rcafpost.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 11:08 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- I never whine to Oleg. I'm sure someone will though.
- I just want to see the planes in good balance to
- each other, as they were in real life. I'm so
- freaking sick of hearing uber/noob handle being put
- on every good plane. I may say it sometimes to rag
- on someone who is getting cocky, but the bottom line
- with me is I want the planes as they were in real
- life. With the proper balance to each other.
-
-
Agree.
BTW, Buzz, i wasn't refering to you. He knows who he is.....


<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>