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View Full Version : The problem of a lack of maps: Solution?



VW-IceFire
03-07-2005, 02:43 PM
Ok...many of you and myself included have complained that there is a distinct lack of maps to help us with the simulation of the Pacific theater.

We're missing the Solomons, we're missing Leyte Gulf, Borneo, and other battle areas. So I'm proposing a solution that has helped FB+AEP people in the past. Patch 2.04 introduced the DesertMP map which allowed us to simulate all sorts of desert scenarios and has proved immensely useful. Its designed for online play and dogfights but its also useful for offline scenarios too.

I'm proposing something a bit more amibitous but nonetheless useful. A generic map, with no names on it, with several airbases on the ground, with a number of small scattered islands forming a larger area, mostly flat, with some hills and mountains, and a larger land mass large enough for ground battles (complete with some small villages and roads). The idea being that it can be used to represent a number of campaigns...including the Australian Borneo campaign, without actually having the build the full size map.

It would be generic enough to do small island hopping campaigns as well as slightly more impressive land battles and air operations by army units as well as navy. I'm willing to draw up some sketches...maybe some others on the board have similar feelings.

It could really help us in a tight spot. As of right now, there's no good maps for USMC Corsair campaigns, nothing good for middle 1943 USAAF campaigns, and absolutely no maps to use the Spitfire VIII on (or the Beaufighter really!).

VW-IceFire
03-07-2005, 02:43 PM
Ok...many of you and myself included have complained that there is a distinct lack of maps to help us with the simulation of the Pacific theater.

We're missing the Solomons, we're missing Leyte Gulf, Borneo, and other battle areas. So I'm proposing a solution that has helped FB+AEP people in the past. Patch 2.04 introduced the DesertMP map which allowed us to simulate all sorts of desert scenarios and has proved immensely useful. Its designed for online play and dogfights but its also useful for offline scenarios too.

I'm proposing something a bit more amibitous but nonetheless useful. A generic map, with no names on it, with several airbases on the ground, with a number of small scattered islands forming a larger area, mostly flat, with some hills and mountains, and a larger land mass large enough for ground battles (complete with some small villages and roads). The idea being that it can be used to represent a number of campaigns...including the Australian Borneo campaign, without actually having the build the full size map.

It would be generic enough to do small island hopping campaigns as well as slightly more impressive land battles and air operations by army units as well as navy. I'm willing to draw up some sketches...maybe some others on the board have similar feelings.

It could really help us in a tight spot. As of right now, there's no good maps for USMC Corsair campaigns, nothing good for middle 1943 USAAF campaigns, and absolutely no maps to use the Spitfire VIII on (or the Beaufighter really!).

Chuck_Older
03-07-2005, 03:18 PM
That makes perfect sense http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

mortoma
03-07-2005, 03:52 PM
Actually if you do a few minor edits you can indeed have a historical land-based Marine subcamapign in at least the birdcage Corsair ( Mk. I or F4U-1 )!!! What I did was changed the dates so my Guadalcanal2 subcampaign starts on the 1st of March, 1943 instead of the default Oct., 1942. Then I made some Dgen edits so make the Corsair Mk.I appear in the campaign and gave it Marine skins to boot. This is historical as the first Corsairs the Marines ( VMF-124 ) flew were on Guadalcanal and they were delivered in Dec., 1942 and January 1943. They first flew familiarization flights on February 11th but did not fly actual combat sories until the first part of March, 1943.

I'll gladly share with people how to make these edits and where to get the skins and stuff. I do agree with the original poster that we need more maps and for sure more land-based campaigns too!!!

Dexmeister
03-07-2005, 03:57 PM
How about [say for future game releases], Oleg & co. unlocked the map portion of the game instead of leaving all the maps within one huge compressed file? This would allow the community some latitude and save him and his team from having to do everything themselves.

Chuck_Older
03-07-2005, 04:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dexmeister:
How about [say for future game releases], Oleg & co. unlocked the map portion of the game instead of leaving all the maps within one huge compressed file? This would allow the community some latitude and save him and his team from having to do everything themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This has been brought up before

Not only is the map editting software complex enough to make the FMB seem like Pac-Man, it's in Russian

ElAurens
03-07-2005, 04:51 PM
I just want Rangoon....


Is that too much to ask?

StG77_Fritz_X
03-07-2005, 05:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Not only is the map editting software complex enough to make the FMB seem like Pac-Man, it's in Russian <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you trying to say there are only a few geniusses on the planet that AND speak Russian AND can use the editing software that is more complex than Pac Man?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sorry Chuck, couldnt resist. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It would be very nice to have some generic maps that can be used to simulate different fronts, especialy the major fronts not available in PF.

The "test runaways" are great in FMB, opening up a lot of new possibilities to make missions using the existing maps.
IMO one of the best things added to the FMB.
... Now limiting nationalities like aircraft restriction on bases, but that is yet another chapter. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Maps? Bring 'em on! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

LEXX_Luthor
03-07-2005, 05:52 PM
Great idea Ice, but a simplified actual mapping of real South Pacific is better.

I say, we don't need Roads. They have to program them for AI. If we remember ~~&gt; AI vehicles never need roads anyway except for bridge crossing. But, we don't need the European FB Rivers either. Rivers also must be programmed for AI ground units. Very difficult to make, Roads and Rivers. Leave them out of primitive Pacific theater.

To keep things very simple....

No Roads (no moving object needs roads in the sim)
No Rivers (FB rivers don't fit PF jungle maps)
No Airfields (we use Static Test Runways for historical airfield dates).
No Buildings (we use Building Objects for historical building dates).

Worst is "historical" Airfields and Buildings fixed on PF maps simulate only one (1) month out of the entire war. We best place our own static airfields where and <span class="ev_code_yellow">when</span> we need them. All we need is South/SouthWest Pacific map with water and land covered with jungle and maybe some bare spots.

Mountains....they made Online Summer 4 "fantasy" map. They can do the same for Owen Stanely mountains--we don't need perfect mapping, but we need the MAPS. This is easy for the Devs if they remember...

NO ROADS
NO RIVERS
NO BUILDINGS
NO AIRFIELDS
and
NO PALM TREE OBJECTS http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Such a simplfied map could extend from New Guinea to Santa Cruz, or from Borneo to New Guinea. We could load and run a map that large just like we run Gulf of Finland map crippled with 500,000 Building Objects and hundreds of Roads and Rivers.

VW-IceFire
03-07-2005, 05:59 PM
I'd have to disagree on some points but I'm glad were talking about this.

Rivers, roads, and villages are part of the aesthetic appeal of the sim and the map. If the map is dead then why bother. It needs some detail to it...even if its minor. A few roads on a larger landmass area would be entirely worth it. A few rivers here and there to spice things up...yes these things can help alot.

As for airbases, those are absolutely critical. The airbace placement tools right now are terrible. Unless something is coming to change that, I'd still request some solid airbases on the map.

LEXX_Luthor
03-07-2005, 06:32 PM
Again, good point IceFire.

The occasional River is good, like the Fly River in New Guinea for one example (I think). I would like that. But right now its nothing but massive Rivers Rivers Rivers surrounded by flat barren plains. The endless Rivers make New Guinea and other supposedly "jungle" islands half flat open terrain.

Bear with me here Ice....IanBoys posted at sinhq that FMB placed Building Objects (my idea) are more performance hit than buildings fixed to the map. Okay but THAT'S NOT THE POINT.

~~&gt; To make large size South and Southwest Pacific maps, The Devs (or IanBoys) would need to place little fixed Villages everywhere across the large map, same with Roads and Rivers. This will be greater performance hit than just the few needed FMB placed Building Objects in the locations of the player's mission .

Follow me so far? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ice:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If the map is dead then why bother. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The air warfare and surface unit combat make the map come alive. Yes? No?

Basically, if such a large map is not possible because its "too hard" then maybe the only way is No Roads, No Rivers, No Airfields, and No Buildings. If programaming any of these objects is "too hard" for the Devs to make a large South (or Southwest) Pacific map, then we either have No Objects or No Map.

Again, the airfields fixed on the map are not always historical even if they are "historical." Example are the Guadacanal maps, one has later airfields, one an early airfield. This is impossible to deal with unless we just use static test runways.

The Static Test Runwyas are not perfect, and we could use the exace same game tech for placeable Static Test Ramps and Static Test Parking areas (same as runways but shorter and you can taxi off the runway onto them). This could work.

I would love to see a just a few of the larger rivers, but if its "too hard" then fine, No Rivers or No Map...easy choice for me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
03-07-2005, 06:45 PM
Doesn't have to be a huge map either....here's my suggestion with a rough appreciation of scale. Roughly based on the Borneo/Gulf region.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/imgs/pf-map2.gif

Please draw your own ideas too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Its bigger than the Desert map but smaller than some of the others. The details wouldn't be unbelievable and there'd be a couple of small cities and some small villages. I didn't put any roads on there but there would be only a few of them and a mountain in hte middle of the main landmass.

Just large enough to have dogfight servers run on the large island and just large enough to have campaigns take place in one area without the other area necessarily becoming involved.

Comments? Thoughts? I'd like to see a Western Front map with a similar appreciation of land details without going overboard but thats in the ORR and this is Pacific related.

LEXX_Luthor
03-07-2005, 07:46 PM
Those grids...10km? For something that small, yes all the usual Objects would work as normal. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I was talking about Offline 2000km map, say from Java to New Guinea. That's why I say no fixed Buildings, No Roads, No Rivers, and No Airfields can fill something that large. We place our own Buildings in the locations where we fly, and place static test runways in locations and dates they were historically there (or as result of Dynamic Campaign).

BaldieJr
03-07-2005, 08:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElAurens:
I just want Rangoon....


Is that too much to ask? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just want crab rangoon.

ElAurens
03-07-2005, 09:37 PM
Sounds good.

strewth
03-07-2005, 09:51 PM
I dont know how many of you blokes have flown over PNG, Guadalcanal and other islands, but the terrain is generally very steep and most rivers cannot be seen from the air easily due to the foliage cover. Only the larger rivers, waterfalls and rivers toward the coastal plains are easily visible. The other thing is that in the 30s and 40's there were hardly any roads and once again most "tracks" towadr the mountains were not all that easily seen. What you do see is little settled and cultivated patches appearing out of very dense jungle.

So my view for all it's worth is to not worry very much about the roads and rivers and concentrate more on the little clearings and small village clusters. The Jungle is also a very dark green and some areas of lighter Kuni grass is visible down on the coastal mountains. The mountains are also generally very steep, not rolling plains as we have currently. IMHO this would make it alot more immersive.

jarink
03-07-2005, 10:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Not only is the map editting software complex enough to make the FMB seem like Pac-Man, it's in Russian <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I work on PCs for a living and do some programming. I also speak Russian. Well, read, write and listen po-russki. (11 years in the US Army).

I like the idea of a generic SW Pacific island map. It would not need the man-made detail of a European map, since there simply were not that many roads, bridges and urban areas at the time.

If we could get a 'real' map, though, I would vote for the Solomons. Depending on it's size you'd get about 1 1/2 years of play from it! It could work for USN, USMC, USAAF, RAAF, IJN and IJA, leaving out only the Brits.

Sorry you Limey-lovers, but you're getting BoB! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

VW-IceFire
03-07-2005, 10:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Those grids...10km? For something that small, yes all the usual Objects would work as normal. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I was talking about Offline 2000km map, say from Java to New Guinea. That's why I say no fixed Buildings, No Roads, No Rivers, and No Airfields can fill something that large. We place our own Buildings in the locations where we fly, and place static test runways in locations and dates they were historically there (or as result of Dynamic Campaign). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah thats a different concept. One that I don't know if its entirely possible but one to consider nonetheless.

LEXX_Luthor
03-08-2005, 03:51 AM
We need to keep this Quote around the boards; this is what I was thinking would be the case...

strewth:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I dont know how many of you blokes have flown over PNG, Guadalcanal and other islands, but the terrain is generally very steep and most rivers cannot be seen from the air easily due to the foliage cover. Only the larger rivers, waterfalls and rivers toward the coastal plains are easily visible. The other thing is that in the 30s and 40's there were hardly any roads and once again most "tracks" toward the mountains were not all that easily seen. What you do see is little settled and cultivated patches appearing out of very dense jungle.

So my view for all it's worth is to not worry very much about the roads and rivers and concentrate more on the little clearings and small village clusters. The Jungle is also a very dark green and some areas of lighter Kuni grass is visible down on the coastal mountains. The mountains are also generally very steep, not rolling plains as we have currently. IMHO this would make it alot more immersive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

jarink:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If we could get a 'real' map, though, I would vote for the Solomons. Depending on it's size you'd get about 1 1/2 years of play from it! It could work for USN, USMC, USAAF, RAAF, IJN and IJA, leaving out only the Brits. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, a simplified map may enable multiple maps where Brits and Dutch can play too, and a *very* simplified full map could include Java to New Guinea and New Guinea to Guadacanal where every body can play.

IceFire:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yeah thats a different concept. One that I don't know if its entirely possible but one to consider nonetheless. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your idea is good too since the Devs seem to have a problem with any map larger than 400km unless its almost all blank water. This is why I suggest No Objects including No Airfields. Actually a small 800km Solomons map would be sufficient with the eastern tip of New Britain so Rabaul can be included. The problem here is that the Rabaul--Wewak--Moresby triangle is (for me) the far more fascinating area to sim, and (I think http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif) for much longer than Rabaul--Guadacanal Solomons chain. We really need a super simplified Wewak--Guadacanal map or even beyond to simplified Allied staging islands east of Guadacanal (these islands were also planned for Japanese invsasion after a succesfull Midway operation to cut Aussomland from USA.

The problem with Airfields is what Time of war do you suggest? I suggest early war map, for example, the Aussom base at Rabaul that the Japanese took over...later built airfields would have to be static test runways.

Don't forget, fewer or no Airfields is easier to program, if making maps is too hard on the Devs.

HotelBushranger
03-08-2005, 05:09 AM
I think a combination of Ice's and Luthors idea is what is needed; a sort of generic map, based loosely on a combination of different areas, that includes airfields, flat plains for tank battles, river/s (not many though), perhaps a couple of main roads linking one side of the island to the other, with villages at the end of the roads. Surrounded by water, the main island could also support naval operations, as well as coordinated air/sea/land assaults. Ice's map is a good one I think, as there is a main island, as well as several other small ones, which would add diversity to the possible action. It would be a relatively small/medium size map, with about 5 minutes flying time from one island to the other, which would sound good if it was the frontlines of a campaign.


Strewth:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I dont know how many of you blokes have flown over PNG, Guadalcanal and other islands, but the terrain is generally very steep and most rivers cannot be seen from the air easily due to the foliage cover. Only the larger rivers, waterfalls and rivers toward the coastal plains are easily visible. The other thing is that in the 30s and 40's there were hardly any roads and once again most "tracks" toward the mountains were not all that easily seen. What you do see is little settled and cultivated patches appearing out of very dense jungle.

So my view for all it's worth is to not worry very much about the roads and rivers and concentrate more on the little clearings and small village clusters. The Jungle is also a very dark green and some areas of lighter Kuni grass is visible down on the coastal mountains. The mountains are also generally very steep, not rolling plains as we have currently. IMHO this would make it alot more immersive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He also makes some good points. The visible things would be perhaps 2 airfields on each side of the airfield, a village beside it, and a road linking each side of the island.

My 2 cents.

ElAurens
03-08-2005, 05:12 AM
Lexx...

While I understand why you feel deleting airfields is a good idea from a programming point of view, from the perspective of a 99% online flyer, it is not a good idea. I don't know how much time you spend online, but the majority of onliners will be quite upset with the thought of those crowded, several meter high airfields that look like the shiny plastic gamepieces from some board game haphazardly strewn all over the place.

They are just ok for co-ops, but when you have 30 or more aircraft jockeying for position, or if you simply drop one wheel off the matting you will understand what I mean.

I would much rather have a properly detailed map. Which we still don't have for the Pacific at this point. Where is the jungle?

Chuck_Older
03-08-2005, 05:20 AM
Well, you guys who speak Russian and love to program PCs have convinced me.

Now all you have to do is convince Oleg to release the software.

Your first map can be a big one, if you don't mind- Rangoon to Lashio, please, with Akyab in the west and Thailand to the East, maybe all the way to Cheingrai. Make the Salween gorge longe and deep, if possible http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

ElAurens
03-08-2005, 05:29 AM
Can't wait!!!!!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
03-08-2005, 06:28 AM
To get Oleg to releace the map tools, we may need to License it to make maps for PF. Also, I read somewhere that UBI and Oleg keep PF maps in house...one reason (I think) IanBoys makes Eastern Front maps.

Ya Ice, we are talking different ideas. Your "generic" map has some precedent and is probably closer to what the Devs would be willing to do. I should start another thread for simplified large South/Southwest Pacific map.

IceFire, I would suggest just a little larger size. It takes loaded AI Betty about 50km to reach good bombing altitude. And for an offline mini~campaign it needs to be larger with more ability to island hop and push back the "enemy" (or get pushed back by them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ).


ElAurens:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Lexx...

While I understand why you feel deleting airfields is a good idea from a programming point of view, from the perspective of a 99% online flyer, it is not a good idea. I don't know how much time you spend online, but the majority of onliners will be quite upset with the thought of those crowded, several meter high airfields that look like the shiny plastic gamepieces from some board game haphazardly strewn all over the place.

They are just ok for co-ops, but when you have 30 or more aircraft jockeying for position, or if you simply drop one wheel off the matting you will understand what I mean.

I would much rather have a properly detailed map. Which we still don't have for the Pacific at this point. Where is the jungle? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed. For online dogfight at sea level the number of airfields is few enough to NOT be a programming problem, nor are historical dates of airfield construction.

What would be nice is FMB placeable short Static Test Ramps and Static Test Parking Areas where we can taxi off the Static Test Runways. Lacking that, for running off the runway, the mission designer can place Static Test Runways side by side, making as wide a takeoff and taxi field as needed (try it now in FMB, it works). I assume its possible to use more than one Static Test Runway on the dogfighter or coop servers, thus solving the internet dogfighter Taxi Collison problem another way.

I spend Zero time in online dogfight. 95% of PF purchasers are offline, so large scale simplified South/Southwest Pacific map will help 95% of purchasers of PF, and if the Devs can't place Airfields across the map, then they can't. We know this is of interest to offline simmers only.

Buzzsaw-
03-08-2005, 08:41 AM
Salute

Forget the generic maps, Oleg should give the green light to creating some Mediterranean maps.

Even if we get a Med expansion on BoB, (and that is far from a certainty) how long will it be before it comes out?

My understanding is that BoB is at least a year and a half away, and the first addon hinted at by Oleg are 1941 aircraft for a "KanalKampf", such as the 190A1 and A3, Spitfire II, Spitfire Va, etc. A major addon for the med would come after that and take another, what... two years?

That makes a likely release four years from now.

I know for one, that I would still buy a BoB Med expansion whether or not we get a few Med maps in IL-2/PF.

In fact, I'd pay for some IL-2/PF Med maps plus the Italian planes that are in the works if Oleg released them over the net as a pay for download.

A map of Tobruk and a map of Malta would be great.

A map of Tunisia would also work.

LEXX_Luthor
03-08-2005, 08:50 AM
According to IanBoys at sinhq, maps of Britain and The Meds are "reserved" by Oleg. The sinhq board decided that means The Meds will be releaced not long after BoB.

The Meds won't help offline play Newbie purchasers of Pacific Fighters. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif And these PF Newbies are hurting more than crusty FB Old Timers, very Badly hurting.

Buzzsaw...a very Object simplified Java--New Guinea map will have a historical place for British planes...(I think http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif )...or at least Dutch, in case you are interested. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Look at the Dutch East Indies and Celebes region on a map...this would be fascinating to sim...and maybe small pieces can be broken off for online dogfight Death Match.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The vast expanse of the East Indies, the great number of their islands, and the lack of good roads mad their defense extremely difficult. The Dutch ahd built an excellent system of airfields throughout the East Indies, but since the Allied had only a handful of planes, mostly obsolescent, these airfields could not be exploited, except by the Japanese.

~ The West Point Atlas of American Wars Vol II, page 128
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Buzzsaw-
03-08-2005, 08:59 AM
Salute LL

I doubt very much that the Med expansion will be released "...soon after BoB".

Why?

Simple, there are a TON of objects etc which would need to be made.

All the Italian planes which did not see service during the BoB, such as the MC200, MC202, RE2000, RE2001, SM79, etc. etc.

Plus all the various Italian warships, British mediterannean warships, Italian vehicles, American lendlease planes used in the Med like the Tomahawk, Kittyhawk, Boston, etc.

Plus the maps themselves. To make a real Med Sim for sale in the stores, you would need at least the following:

El Agheila
Tobruk
El Alamein
Tunisia
Malta
Sardinia/Sea of Tunis (for the British convoys to Malta)

What I'm asking for is simple. Just a few maps players can make up their own scenarios with, along with the Italian planes which are already in developement and look like they are ready for the upcoming patch, and which will have no maps to fly on when if they DO arrive.

If we got those, there would be a plethora of player made scenarios created to go with them. As it is, even without Med maps, players are cranking out "Med" setups using Guadalcanal maps, etc. There are three Malta addons coming out in the next while.

By all means, have Oleg charge us for some real Med maps. I would be happy to pay for a download.

LEXX_Luthor
03-08-2005, 09:12 AM
We agree with Oleg charging for maps. If so there is no limit to what can be accomplished over The Meds, Pacific, or anywhere. If UBI could offer simple Map CDs for download or ship them in cheap paper envelopes. But if not, right now its Pacific Fighters and the Newbie customers who are hurting the most, and very painfully so. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Buzzsaw:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I doubt very much that the Med expansion will be released "...soon after BoB".

Why?

Simple, there are a TON of objects etc which would need to be made. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The same TON of objects etc which would need to be made for any new Theater after BoB. Yes? No?

According to sinhq theory, The Meds will be the *first* theater releaced after BoB...at least after Battle of Poland/France. This is long before another Pacific theater...5 years for BoB Pacific according to Oleg.

LEXX_Luthor
03-08-2005, 09:27 AM
Buzz, I feel the exact same way about China as you feel about The Meds, and both China and The Meds can be fairly well simulated with the maps we have now as you posted. The South/Southwest Pacific offers a totally different multi~island "archipelego" environment that cannot be simulated *now* because of the small crippled PF maps.

If Oleg releaces some The Meds maps, all we will do is Whine about missing Tropical Filters. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Maybe Oleg knows to stay clear of this desert minefield until the proper time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Krt_Bong
03-08-2005, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
I think a combination of Ice's and Luthors idea is what is needed; a sort of generic map, based loosely on a combination of different areas, that includes airfields, flat plains for tank battles, river/s (not many though), perhaps a couple of main roads linking one side of the island to the other, with villages at the end of the roads. Surrounded by water, the main island could also support naval operations, as well as coordinated air/sea/land assaults. Ice's map is a good one I think, as there is a main island, as well as several other small ones, which would add diversity to the possible action. It would be a relatively small/medium size map, with about 5 minutes flying time from one island to the other, which would sound good if it was the frontlines of a campaign.


Strewth:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I dont know how many of you blokes have flown over PNG, Guadalcanal and other islands, but the terrain is generally very steep and most rivers cannot be seen from the air easily due to the foliage cover. Only the larger rivers, waterfalls and rivers toward the coastal plains are easily visible. The other thing is that in the 30s and 40's there were hardly any roads and once again most "tracks" toward the mountains were not all that easily seen. What you do see is little settled and cultivated patches appearing out of very dense jungle.

So my view for all it's worth is to not worry very much about the roads and rivers and concentrate more on the little clearings and small village clusters. The Jungle is also a very dark green and some areas of lighter Kuni grass is visible down on the coastal mountains. The mountains are also generally very steep, not rolling plains as we have currently. IMHO this would make it alot more immersive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He also makes some good points. The visible things would be perhaps 2 airfields on each side of the airfield, a village beside it, and a road linking each side of the island.

My 2 cents. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree here too, I've been saying that maps like the Kuban, the Owen Stanley range and two or three others that I'm sure everyone has a preference for all have good variety of terrain and land form details, but they are all labelled and if we could remove the labels and have them with as you say no objects then we could use them for whatever theatre or battle we needed. I wish there were an online Pearl Harbour that only had the Big Island because with all the objects that one wants to place in it the map is just too vast.
If I want to do a map of Burma/ Rangoon or something you can use the Russian maps but it would be nice if you didnt have it all covered with russian towns, if were only possible to turn the labels off? Anyway prolly a stupid idea just thinking out loud.

LEXX_Luthor
03-08-2005, 10:04 AM
Yes, the Kuban mountains show they can make Steep mountains if they want to. Those are my favorite mountains in all FB/PF. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Also, the Online Summer 4 map shows they don't need "satellite data" to make these huge 4km tall mountains covered mostly with Forest. I *think* Pacific jungle mountain tops are usually covered with Forest, and not topped with snow. Strewth??

The *best* thing about Kuban map southern mountain region is...No Rivers!

Aero_Shodanjo
03-08-2005, 10:35 AM
Cant agree more about Dutch East Indies map http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Anyway, just for information, exactly at this date, 63 years ago, the Dutch & allied forces fighting in the EI surrendered to Japan after putting heavy resistance in various areas.

Im planning a trip to the spot where the surrender happened in the end of this month. If anyone interested, I'll post pictures here. If not, well, atleast it will be a nostalgia trip for me.

Cos I was born there http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LEXX_Luthor
03-08-2005, 10:48 AM
Aero, Post them. Thanks that would be wonderful. Can you make trip to old airfields or battle areas if they are still there?

What you need to do is take pics with an eye toward us comparing with PF terrain grafix. If you are flying, take pics from the air if possible.

Buzzsaw-
03-08-2005, 10:51 AM
Salute

A map of the Albania/Greece border would also be nice.

Aero_Shodanjo
03-08-2005, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Aero, Post them. Thanks that would be wonderful. Can you make trip to old airfields or battle areas if they are still there?

What you need to do is take pics with an eye toward us comparing with PF terrain grafix. If you are flying, take pics from the air if possible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LEXX, thanks m8. Actually the trip will be a visit to Kalijati airbase where my father stationed some 30 years ago. That's where the surrender happened.

IIRC, after that, the base was used as one of several main airbases for the IJAAF during their occupation in 42-45.

Seems that I'll be taking a lot of pics http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LEXX_Luthor
03-08-2005, 12:04 PM
I am now Desperatly trying to find Kalijati. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
~&gt; http://www.pacificwrecks.com/provinces/indonesia_java.html

Kalijati
Subang in West Java with its nearby airfield of Kalijati

Kalijati (Karichagi ) Airfield

Also know as Karichagi, the Japanese phonetic name for Kalidajati.

Allied Defense
This airfield was defended by a mixed force of Royal Dutch Netherlands East Indies Army, 49 Battery of the 48 Light Antiaircraft Regiment R A, a detachment of RAF acting as ground troops, and a company of light tanks of the 3rd Kings Own Hussars, RAC. During the night the Dutch forces were withdrawn without notice from the airfield prior to the Japanese attack.

Occpuation by Japanese
On March 1, 1942 the remaining defenders unexpectedly discovered Japanese armoured vehicles advancing onto the edge of the field. They hastily assembled and flung up a remarkable defense, one in which almost all the defenders laid down their lives, 49 Bty losing over 50 of their men. The survivors were taken prisoner by the Japanese. When later that week the Allied commanders met with the Japanese in connection with the capitulation negotiations, the Japanese commanders congratulated the British on the courageous stand their men had made during the defense of the Kalijati airfield, and the JAAF began using the strip as a forward airfield, and afterwards for attacks on Darwin.

JAAF Units Based at Kalijati
7th Sentai (Ki-49s)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Also, we didn't know about this...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Surabaja (Surabaya)
Lat 7? 15' 0S Long 112? 45' 0E

Located on the north coast of Java. On February 28, 1942, the remnants of the Allied force in Java flee to Surabaya, sheltering briefly there before trying to escape to Australia. <span class="ev_code_yellow">After August 1943, German U-Boat satellite station located here, main base at Penang.</span> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just looking for Kalijati and found EXACTLY what we need over the PF...but maybe with Sumatra cut in half to exclude Malaya and Singapore City (Singapore map coming soon). This would have to have No fixed Objects, the Devs could never fill the map with programmed Roads, Airfields, Buildings, and Palm Tree Objects. Maybe a few of the largest Rivers to help air navigation, and maybe an Aussom little slice of Australia where we could put a few Building Objects when we fly missions to attack or defend Darwin. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/asia/outline/idout.gif
WorldAtlas.com ~&gt; http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/asia/outline/idout.htm

VW-IceFire
03-08-2005, 12:47 PM
I wonder if the devs would be open to doing this? Undertaking something to redress the situation. I know its a bit of an undertaking when they are so close to signing off on things and moving forward but I suppose its a possibility.

I'd love to make a Spit VIII RAAF campaign but we have no maps. I'd love to do a Spit VIII RAF SEAC campaign over Burma and Rangoon but we have no maps (it was on the list initially, but we never saw it)...and I'd love to do an island hopping campaign but nothing is really useful for that.

LEXX_Luthor
03-09-2005, 12:03 AM
IceFire:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wonder if the devs would be open to doing this? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We may need to help open their minds. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Vast island archipelegos of this region are a unique environment in air warfare.

Just thinking, the map you suggested earlier, its about the size of our Guadacanal map, the later version. Still, anything would be helpful, anything.

strewth
03-09-2005, 04:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:

Also, the Online Summer 4 map shows they don't need "satellite data" to make these huge 4km tall mountains covered mostly with Forest. I *think* Pacific jungle mountain tops are usually covered with Forest, and not topped with snow. Strewth??

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only snow capped mountains in the area of the Pacific as far as PNG and the Solomon chain goes is in western New Guinea near what is now the huge Freeport Mine. There is actually a glacier there.

To give you an example of the steepness of the terrain on in the Pacific Islands. I grew up on Guadalcanal and played on many wrecks as a kid. We lived on dozed off portions of ridges such as Langakiki. The valleys were littered with un-exploded bombs due to the bombs missing the targets maybe by only a couple of meters and sliding down the side of the valleys. The British government used to send up a bomb disposal expert twice a year to dispose of the bombs uncovered regularly. Sometimes when the kuni grass caught fire and was burning up the side of the hill, you might hear an almighty explosion and see a heap of rubbish fly into the air down in the valley (we used to watch these fires on a regular basis). This was caused by an old bomb with just one fire too many going over it and it finally detonates.

Most sims just do not do credit to the steepness of the terrain and the height of some mountains. You should not be able to take off and just fly straight up the side of a mountain range. "TOO STEEP!". I really hope that we can get a Pacific mesh that finally gives you immersion. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Aero_Shodanjo
03-09-2005, 05:32 AM
Here's three pictures from Indonesian Air Force website (http://www.tni-au.mil.id) to show typical terrain (well, sort of) in this archipelago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/photo_20031211_63118edd.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/photo_20031215_1290.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/photo_20031215_123930.jpg

Sorry, I couldnt find any pictures that show just the terrain minus the a/c in that website http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Aero_Shodanjo
03-09-2005, 05:43 AM
LEXX, I think you'll find this interesting:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/ww220asia20map2010.jpg

The link (http://www.dean.usma.edu/history/web03/atlases/ww2%20pacific/ww2%20pacific%20war%20index.htm) contains a lot of WWII maps.

And specifically about Dutch East Indies campaign, check this one: The Netherlands East Indies 1941-1942 (http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/)

JG53Frankyboy
03-09-2005, 06:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I wonder if the devs would be open to doing this? Undertaking something to redress the situation. I know its a bit of an undertaking when they are so close to signing off on things and moving forward but I suppose its a possibility.

I'd love to make a Spit VIII RAAF campaign but we have no maps. I'd love to do a Spit VIII RAF SEAC campaign over Burma and Rangoon but we have no maps (it was on the list initially, but we never saw it)...and I'd love to do an island hopping campaign but nothing is really useful for that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
i used the following for VOW2 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

misionfile:
[MAIN]
MAP Netmountains/load.ini
TIME 8.0
WEAPONSCONSTANT 1
CloudType 0
CloudHeight 1500.0
army 1
playerNum 0
[Wing]
2SquadronRAAF03
30SquadronRAAF00
30SquadronRAAF01
IJA_F_S_64z00
IJA_F_S_64z01
[2SquadronRAAF03]
Planes 4
Skill 1
Class air.BEAU21
Fuel 50
weapons 8xrock
[2SquadronRAAF03_Way]
TAKEOFF 1710.10 48832.04 0 0 6_Static 0 &0
NORMFLY 27967.80 50105.27 1000.00 320.00 &0
NORMFLY 20689.15 19131.32 1000.00 320.00 &0
GATTACK 31753.55 12286.01 1000.00 320.00 2_Chief 0 &0
GATTACK 33025.03 11784.11 1000.00 320.00 1_Chief 0 &0
GATTACK 34296.51 11349.13 1000.00 320.00 0_Chief 0 &0
NORMFLY 19406.80 24331.61 1000.00 320.00 &0
NORMFLY 1974.14 27242.63 1000.00 320.00 &0
NORMFLY 1873.76 39355.16 1000.00 320.00 &0
LANDING 1486.71 47886.63 0 0 6_Static 0 &0
[30SquadronRAAF00]
Planes 4
Skill 1
Class air.SPITFIRE8
Fuel 75
weapons default
[30SquadronRAAF00_Way]
TAKEOFF 1136.51 50376.14 0 0 3_Static 0 &0
NORMFLY 27921.70 50190.84 3000.00 350.00 2SquadronRAAF03 1 &0
NORMFLY 20855.21 19162.38 3000.00 350.00 2SquadronRAAF03 2 &0
NORMFLY 31838.35 12507.27 3000.00 350.00 2SquadronRAAF03 3 &0
NORMFLY 33187.32 12102.58 3000.00 350.00 2SquadronRAAF03 4 &0
NORMFLY 34423.86 11607.96 3000.00 350.00 2SquadronRAAF03 5 &0
NORMFLY 19540.32 24423.10 3000.00 350.00 2SquadronRAAF03 6 &0
NORMFLY 2338.20 27548.20 3000.00 350.00 2SquadronRAAF03 7 &0
NORMFLY 1573.79 39351.62 3000.00 350.00 &0
LANDING 1158.10 50353.63 0 0 3_Static 0 &0
[30SquadronRAAF01]
Planes 2
Skill 1
Class air.SPITFIRE8
Fuel 75
weapons default
[30SquadronRAAF01_Way]
TAKEOFF 1136.51 50376.14 0 0 5_Static 0 &0
NORMFLY 27928.92 50183.81 3000.00 350.00 2SquadronRAAF03 1 &0
NORMFLY 20831.96 19206.30 3000.00 350.00 2SquadronRAAF03 2 &0
NORMFLY 31845.89 12516.71 3000.00 350.00 2SquadronRAAF03 3 &0
NORMFLY 33236.86 12058.51 3000.00 350.00 2SquadronRAAF03 4 &0
NORMFLY 34447.81 11600.31 3000.00 350.00 2SquadronRAAF03 5 &0
NORMFLY 19572.69 24397.17 3000.00 350.00 2SquadronRAAF03 6 &0
NORMFLY 2340.09 27571.84 3000.00 350.00 2SquadronRAAF03 7 &0
NORMFLY 1570.97 39337.75 3000.00 350.00 &0
LANDING 1158.10 50353.63 0 0 5_Static 0 &0
[IJA_F_S_64z00]
Planes 4
Skill 1
Class air.KI_61_IOTSU
Fuel 75
weapons default
[IJA_F_S_64z00_Way]
TAKEOFF 50138.48 199.95 0 0 2_Static 0 &0
NORMFLY 18390.72 17483.26 4000.00 350.00 &0
NORMFLY 26150.33 19479.50 4000.00 350.00 &0
NORMFLY 22479.81 5634.57 4000.00 350.00 &0
NORMFLY 33845.54 13651.75 4000.00 350.00 &0
NORMFLY 21256.30 17322.27 4000.00 350.00 &0
NORMFLY 39930.87 1384.49 4000.00 350.00 &0
LANDING 50138.48 199.95 0 0 1_Static 0 &0
[IJA_F_S_64z01]
Planes 4
Skill 1
Class air.KI_61_IHEI
Fuel 75
weapons default
[IJA_F_S_64z01_Way]
TAKEOFF 50138.48 199.95 0 0 0_Static 0 &0
NORMFLY 18387.99 17506.79 4000.00 350.00 &0
NORMFLY 26137.47 19496.99 4000.00 350.00 &0
NORMFLY 22438.85 5618.37 4000.00 350.00 &0
NORMFLY 33851.73 13649.66 4000.00 350.00 &0
NORMFLY 21258.82 17330.66 4000.00 350.00 &0
NORMFLY 39892.80 1373.77 4000.00 350.00 &0
LANDING 50138.48 199.95 0 0 1_Static 0 &0
[Chiefs]
0_Chief Vehicles.JapanCarsColumnB 2
1_Chief Vehicles.JapanCarsColumnB 2
2_Chief Vehicles.JapanCarsColumnB 2
[0_Chief_Road]
39839.75 8961.08 120.00 0 12 3.055555582046509
39700.00 9100.00 20.00
38500.00 10300.00 20.00
37500.00 10300.00 20.00
37100.00 10700.00 20.00
36300.00 10700.00 20.00
34700.00 12300.00 20.00
31700.00 12300.00 20.00
30500.00 13500.00 20.00
26900.00 13500.00 20.00
23700.00 16700.00 20.00
23589.19 16807.43 120.00
[1_Chief_Road]
39260.97 9540.49 120.00 0 12 3.055555582046509
39100.00 9700.00 20.00
38500.00 10300.00 20.00
37500.00 10300.00 20.00
37100.00 10700.00 20.00
36300.00 10700.00 20.00
34700.00 12300.00 20.00
31700.00 12300.00 20.00
30500.00 13500.00 20.00
26900.00 13500.00 20.00
23500.00 16900.00 20.00
23379.75 16902.57 120.00
[2_Chief_Road]
38647.47 10151.53 120.00 0 12 3.055555582046509
38500.00 10300.00 20.00
37500.00 10300.00 20.00
37100.00 10700.00 20.00
36300.00 10700.00 20.00
34700.00 12300.00 20.00
31700.00 12300.00 20.00
30500.00 13500.00 20.00
26900.00 13500.00 20.00
23500.00 16900.00 20.00
23300.00 16900.00 20.00
23185.64 17012.96 120.00
[NStationary]
0_Static ships.Ship$RwySteel 2 50523.06 494.26 675.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
1_Static ships.Ship$RwySteel 2 50500.50 516.80 675.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
2_Static ships.Ship$RwySteel 2 50477.89 539.36 675.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
3_Static ships.Ship$RwySteel 1 1475.92 50715.55 675.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
4_Static ships.Ship$RwySteel 1 1453.41 50738.09 675.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
5_Static ships.Ship$RwySteel 1 1498.41 50693.04 675.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
6_Static ships.Ship$RwySteel 1 1580.05 48358.55 645.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
7_Static ships.Ship$RwySteel 1 1549.21 48366.88 645.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
8_Static ships.Ship$RwySteel 1 1610.95 48350.27 645.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
9_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Twin25mm_JA 2 50480.51 731.74 675.00 0.0 0
10_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Twin25mm_JA 2 50304.25 642.48 675.00 0.0 0
11_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Twin25mm_JA 2 50304.25 642.48 675.00 0.0 0
12_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Twin25mm_JA 2 50512.14 320.47 675.00 0.0 0
13_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Twin25mm_JA 2 50622.87 390.52 675.00 0.0 0
14_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$KI_46_RECCE 2 50430.61 684.98 464.10 0.0 ja
15_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$L2D 2 50289.01 552.65 334.10 0.0 ja
16_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$L2D 2 50337.84 598.06 394.10 0.0 ja
17_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$KI_61_IOTSU 2 50581.98 373.94 229.10 0.0 ja
18_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$KI_61_IOTSU 2 50551.71 365.64 199.10 0.0 ja
19_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$KI_61_IOTSU 2 50541.94 336.34 219.10 0.0 ja
20_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$KI_43_IIKAI 2 50453.08 253.82 219.10 0.0 ja
21_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$KI_43_IIKAI 2 50434.52 230.39 219.10 0.0 ja
22_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$KI_43_IIKAI 2 50403.27 222.08 265.00 0.0 ja
23_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$KI_43_IIKAI 2 50406.69 255.29 190.00 0.0 ja
24_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$SPITFIRE8 1 1199.57 50679.76 360.00 0.0 gb
25_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$SPITFIRE8 1 1188.09 50653.38 360.00 0.0 gb
26_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$SPITFIRE8 1 1188.52 50624.92 360.00 0.0 gb
27_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$SPITFIRE8 1 1235.38 50636.90 315.00 0.0 gb
28_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$HurricaneMkIIc 1 1465.69 50916.51 420.00 0.0 gb
29_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$HurricaneMkIIc 1 1491.98 50931.20 464.10 0.0 gb
30_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$HurricaneMkIIc 1 1521.01 50927.10 464.10 0.0 gb
31_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$P_47D22 1 1411.74 50861.19 420.00 0.0 gb
32_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$P_47D22 1 1331.14 50802.80 420.00 0.0 gb
33_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$P_47D22 1 1337.97 50775.48 375.00 0.0 gb
34_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$P_47D22 1 1250.90 50732.11 405.00 0.0 gb
35_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$B_24J100 1 1365.81 48108.88 360.00 0.0 gb
36_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$B_24J100 1 1339.75 48286.99 360.00 0.0 gb
37_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$B_24J100 1 1402.07 48218.12 285.00 0.0 gb
38_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$BEAU21 1 1679.44 48149.07 200.00 0.0 gb
39_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$BEAU21 1 1696.33 48117.06 200.00 0.0 gb
40_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$BEAU21 1 1687.75 48091.58 200.00 0.0 gb
41_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$BEAU21 1 1751.48 48338.07 200.00 0.0 gb
42_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$BEAU21 1 1751.48 48396.76 200.00 0.0 gb
43_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$P_47D22 1 1703.01 48272.37 200.00 0.0 gb
44_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$P_47D22 1 1694.71 48241.75 200.00 0.0 gb
45_Static vehicles.planes.Plane$P_47D22 1 1668.56 48210.50 230.00 0.0 gb
46_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$StBofors_40mm_UK 1 1481.55 48485.70 590.00 0.0 0
47_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$StBofors_40mm_UK 1 1766.08 48438.28 590.00 0.0 0
48_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$StBofors_40mm_UK 1 1341.88 48006.31 590.00 0.0 0
49_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$StBofors_40mm_UK 1 1654.86 48038.21 590.00 0.0 0
50_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$StBofors_40mm_UK 1 1170.30 50563.62 590.00 0.0 0
51_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$StBofors_40mm_UK 1 1419.47 50949.02 590.00 0.0 0
52_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$StBofors_40mm_UK 1 1568.64 50661.91 590.00 0.0 0
53_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$StBofors_40mm_UK 1 1503.97 50544.65 590.00 0.0 0
54_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$_50calMG_water_US 1 1265.21 50776.46 410.00 0.0 1000
55_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$_50calMG_water_US 1 1502.22 50627.55 410.00 0.0 1000
56_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$_50calMG_water_US 1 1714.02 48210.52 410.00 0.0 1000
57_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$_50calMG_water_US 1 1488.78 48370.28 410.00 0.0 1000
58_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Type98_20mm_JA 2 50457.93 702.69 410.00 0.0 1000
59_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Type98_20mm_JA 2 38107.56 10359.42 410.00 0.0 1500
60_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Type98_20mm_JA 2 35090.52 12011.17 410.00 0.0 1500
61_Static vehicles.artillery.Artillery$Type98_20mm_JA 2 31920.48 12462.65 410.00 0.0 1500
62_Static vehicles.stationary.Stationary$Kurogane 2 34581.79 14396.17 410.00 0.0
63_Static vehicles.stationary.Stationary$Kurogane 2 34456.21 14384.26 410.00 0.0
64_Static vehicles.stationary.Stationary$Kurogane 2 34360.60 14393.90 410.00 0.0
65_Static vehicles.stationary.Stationary$Kurogane 2 34206.46 14375.94 410.00 0.0
66_Static vehicles.stationary.Stationary$Kurogane 2 34057.20 14368.45 410.00 0.0
67_Static vehicles.stationary.Stationary$Kurogane 2 33880.60 14361.74 410.00 0.0
68_Static vehicles.stationary.Stationary$Kurogane 2 33693.50 14352.51 410.00 0.0
69_Static vehicles.stationary.Stationary$Kurogane 2 33522.38 14323.32 410.00 0.0
70_Static vehicles.stationary.Stationary$Kurogane 2 33241.97 14272.30 410.00 0.0
71_Static vehicles.stationary.Stationary$Kurogane 2 33288.96 14134.10 410.00 0.0
72_Static vehicles.stationary.Stationary$Kurogane 2 33537.59 14174.73 410.00 0.0
73_Static vehicles.stationary.Stationary$Kurogane 2 33717.90 14178.62 410.00 0.0
74_Static vehicles.stationary.Stationary$Kurogane 2 33948.08 14208.31 410.00 0.0
75_Static vehicles.stationary.Stationary$Kurogane 2 34198.25 14218.80 410.00 0.0
76_Static vehicles.stationary.Stationary$Kurogane 2 34495.08 14216.05 410.00 0.0
[Buildings]
0_bld House$Henderstower 1 50429.04 604.12 675.00
1_bld House$FlagJarmy 1 50451.39 605.75 675.00
2_bld House$Bamboo_barrack 1 50358.43 698.03 680.00
3_bld House$Bamboo_barrack 1 50336.50 682.91 680.00
4_bld House$Bamboo_barrack 1 50317.13 668.56 680.00
5_bld House$BP_Earth 1 50435.85 232.19 585.00
6_bld House$BP_Earth 1 50563.51 354.24 585.00
7_bld House$Hangar_Med2 1 50241.35 564.71 555.00
8_bld House$Longbarrack 1 50499.44 296.43 675.00
9_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 50623.08 390.31 540.00
10_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 50512.36 319.94 585.00
11_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 50303.72 642.47 360.00
12_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 50480.23 731.84 480.00
13_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 50474.73 290.22 550.00
14_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 50278.96 589.25 550.00
15_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 50315.63 693.78 550.00
16_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 50464.63 720.83 550.00
17_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 50403.20 706.15 550.00
18_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 50434.38 616.30 550.00
19_bld House$FurniturePalmAg1 1 50413.75 593.83 550.00
20_bld House$FurniturePalmAg1 1 50605.38 396.69 550.00
21_bld House$FurniturePalmAg1 1 50239.99 535.15 550.00
22_bld House$FurniturePalmAg1 1 50235.40 525.52 550.00
23_bld House$FurniturePalmAg1 1 50405.49 726.79 550.00
24_bld House$FurniturePalmAg1 1 1478.78 48377.73 550.00
25_bld House$FurniturePalmAg1 1 1763.88 48289.42 550.00
26_bld House$FurniturePalmAg1 1 1362.67 48155.01 550.00
27_bld House$FurniturePalmAg1 1 1495.87 48446.34 550.00
28_bld House$FurniturePalmAg1 1 1364.20 48338.10 550.00
29_bld House$FurniturePalmAg1 1 1371.71 50864.10 550.00
30_bld House$FurniturePalmAg1 1 1508.20 50961.67 550.00
31_bld House$FurniturePalmAg1 1 1509.06 50608.60 550.00
32_bld House$FurniturePalmAg1 1 1417.96 50914.25 550.00
33_bld House$FurniturePalmAg1 1 1192.41 50594.52 550.00
34_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1544.71 50640.90 550.00
35_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1332.53 50876.92 550.00
36_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1492.90 50577.94 550.00
37_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1293.50 50790.29 550.00
38_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1196.19 50719.67 550.00
39_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1786.33 48420.38 550.00
40_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1441.54 48425.74 550.00
41_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1674.34 48046.72 550.00
42_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1350.80 48045.48 550.00
43_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1474.79 48342.81 550.00
44_bld House$Control_tower 1 1478.44 48359.98 375.00
45_bld House$Henderstower 1 1518.31 50631.94 405.00
46_bld House$HQ_JP01 1 50434.90 718.21 615.00
47_bld House$HangarLG 1 1315.62 48287.52 540.00
48_bld House$Metal_hut 1 1473.94 48440.44 600.00
49_bld House$Metal_hut 1 1454.36 48430.80 600.00
50_bld House$Metal_hut 1 1431.09 48419.08 600.00
51_bld House$Hangar_Med2 1 1376.46 50896.35 585.00
52_bld House$Hangar_Med2 1 1301.83 50828.63 585.00
53_bld House$Hangar_Med2 1 1224.18 50761.77 585.00
54_bld House$BP_Earth 1 1188.81 50655.22 360.00
55_bld House$BP_Earth 1 1493.36 50934.75 460.00
56_bld House$Bamboo_hut_3 1 1498.97 50591.80 430.00
57_bld House$BP_Earth 1 1698.07 48117.09 555.00
58_bld House$BP_Earth 1 1764.53 48363.21 555.00
59_bld House$HangarLG 1 1310.84 48111.34 540.00
60_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1354.32 48220.46 540.00
61_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1339.55 48349.26 540.00
62_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1404.37 48417.36 540.00
63_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1410.93 48438.69 540.00
64_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1801.45 48345.98 540.00
65_bld House$FurniturePalmAg2 1 1734.99 48177.80 540.00
66_bld House$Cablehouse 1 1733.35 48233.59 555.00
67_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 1504.53 50543.58 590.00
68_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 1169.84 50563.32 380.00
69_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 1418.95 50950.27 440.00
70_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 1569.35 50662.13 515.00
71_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 1341.01 48005.46 680.00
72_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 1654.87 48036.99 635.00
73_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 1766.50 48438.93 515.00
74_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 1481.23 48487.14 440.00
75_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 1489.01 48370.81 500.00
76_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 1713.70 48210.17 680.00
77_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 1502.54 50627.34 590.00
78_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 1264.61 50776.74 410.00
79_bld House$FurnitureSandbags_Round 1 50457.63 703.14 410.00
[Target]
1 2 1 20 1000 33842 12308 3000
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FrontMarker0 369.82 15039.49 1
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FrontMarker4 17956.98 23381.06 1
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FrontMarker9 27613.48 31845.91 1
FrontMarker10 33818.30 34229.21 1
FrontMarker11 39283.47 34434.67 1
FrontMarker12 43146.07 31599.36 1
FrontMarker13 47090.85 29339.33 1
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properties:
Short \n
Description &lt;ARMY NONE&gt;\nBurma/India ,spring 1944\n\n the Battle of the Imphal Valley, the last japanese offensive.\n&lt;/ARMY&gt;\n&lt;ARMY RED&gt;\n\n"Gentlemen.\nour Beaufighters will attack japanese convoys at sector D2. altitude 1500m\n\nSpitfires will fly cover."\n\nyour forces: 4 Beaufighter , 6 Spitfire\ngoal: destroy convoys\ntime: 20min\n&lt;/ARMY&gt;\n&lt;ARMY BLUE&gt;\n\n"Samurai!\nStart and cover our sector around C2 . \naltitude 4000m."\n\nyour forces: 8 Army Fighter Typ3\ngoal: defend groundtroops\ntime:20min\n&lt;/ARMY&gt;\n\nDESIGNERS NOTE:\n1.the map is sure a fake http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif\n2.dont roll off the runways! you will explode if you do that\n3.you will be counted only as "landed" when you land at your homebase. if you land on the other bases you will get an "emergency landed" in your VOW stats\n\n\ngood luck to all !\nenjoy your flight.\n&lt;ARMY NONE&gt;\n

LEXX_Luthor
03-09-2005, 09:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by strewth:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:

Also, the Online Summer 4 map shows they don't need "satellite data" to make these huge 4km tall mountains covered mostly with Forest. I *think* Pacific jungle mountain tops are usually covered with Forest, and not topped with snow. Strewth??

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only snow capped mountains in the area of the Pacific as far as PNG and the Solomon chain goes is in western New Guinea near what is now the huge Freeport Mine. There is actually a glacier there.

To give you an example of the steepness of the terrain on in the Pacific Islands. I grew up on Guadalcanal and played on many wrecks as a kid. We lived on dozed off portions of ridges such as Langakiki. The valleys were littered with un-exploded bombs due to the bombs missing the targets maybe by only a couple of meters and sliding down the side of the valleys. The British government used to send up a bomb disposal expert twice a year to dispose of the bombs uncovered regularly. Sometimes when the kuni grass caught fire and was burning up the side of the hill, you might hear an almighty explosion and see a heap of rubbish fly into the air down in the valley (we used to watch these fires on a regular basis). This was caused by an old bomb with just one fire too many going over it and it finally detonates.

Most sims just do not do credit to the steepness of the terrain and the height of some mountains. You should not be able to take off and just fly straight up the side of a mountain range. "TOO STEEP!". I really hope that we can get a Pacific mesh that finally gives you immersion. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You grew up on the Pacific wrecks? aussum Aussum AUSSUM http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Oleg's Kuban mountains are very steep. The sad thing is Oleg's *best* terrain technology--Kuban style mountains--were never fully used during the life of FB/PF. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

I am getting to really love this Pacific thing. Flying along and a lush *GREEN* island appears on the horizon. But there are so few maps and all too small that have these jungle islands. The 3 islands off the east of New Guinea map are nice. If they only extended the map a little further they would have even more islands like that. Just looking at our PF maps makes me so Depressed at the ignored potential here.

LEXX_Luthor
03-09-2005, 09:33 AM
Aero_Shodanjo:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/ww220asia20map2010.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Something like that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Phillipines may be too much to handle on something this size and would need its own map. For the south, we just need a long strip from the eastern tip of Sumatra to the middle of New Guinea, and from Darwin to the northern tip of Borneo -- that may require just the southern tip of Mindanao which would be useful for basing.


Awsum link Aero... Dutch East Indies campaign...thanks.
~~&gt; http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/

Capt._Tenneal
03-09-2005, 09:38 AM
For a Philippine map, I can suggest two areas : for early '41 scenarios -- the Manila Bay area. That will encompass Manila and suburbs, Bataan, and Corregidor (right in the middle of the bay). That can be used for the '45 scenarios too.

Another is the Leyte Gulf area from San Bernardino strait in the north to Surigao strait in the south. That would encompass most of the operational areas in Oct. 1944.

bigchump
03-09-2005, 10:12 AM
I don't care what language the map editor uses.
I don't care how "complicated" using it is.
Just give me a shot at it!

No stinking palm trees.
No bogus objects.
No Pitomnik airfield at the wrong longitude.

Yeah, I think I could do that...

csThor
03-09-2005, 11:50 AM
It took Ian Boys 14 months to get through the cliffs of the editor - and he had to ask Oleg directly. The editor was never intended to get out of Maddox Games's Team and it shows. And - even if the map is "ready" - it still takes a few hours of work by Maddox Games to get into the game (plus bugfixing).

I honestly do believe that anyone asking for a release of said tool is having "delusions of grandeur" (lacking a better term, no offense in mind). I don't think anyone could learn it fast enough to be of use and neither I can see Maddox Games keeping work on PF/FB open long enough to get new maps.

LEXX_Luthor
03-09-2005, 12:56 PM
Actually, Oleg posted that the work over theFB/PF will continue for a very long time because of a backlog of completed or almost complete in~house and/or 3rd Party aircraft and cockpits. This does not even include the Russian CDs, all 3 of them.

csThor you are correct. We don't absolutely need a 3rd Party. Oleg's team can still make large simplified Pacific maps with...

No AI programmed Roads
No AI programmed Rivers (or just a very few of the very largest Rivers)
No AI programmed Airfields
No Building Objects
No Palm Tree Objects

Saunders1953
03-09-2005, 03:16 PM
On the next episode of "Spit Take Theatre"....

"*Cough* Sputter* *Spits Out Drink* My God man, you just casually mention that you GREW UP on Guadalcanal, playing on wreckage, then go back into silent mode!?!?!?!"

strewth
03-09-2005, 05:58 PM
Saunders,

I lived on Guadalcanal for nearly 7 years in the 1970's. Best years of my life. The people were good, the lifestyle (especially for a young boy) was good and the scenery was great.

My father used to take my sisters and myself snorkling around old ship wrecks. I have some photos somewhere of some of the old amphibious landing craft left behind at the mouth of the matanako river as well of old ammo disposal sites. I will see if I can find them and scan them in.

The other great game we used to play was in the school yard while waiting to be picked up by our parents. We would go around in certain areas and if you knew where to scuff your feet around in the dirt, you would see who could kick up the most live bullets.
When flying into Henderson Airfield in the 70's, you could still see alot of the old bomb craters around the strip. The place was just full of WWII history. I also still have a Japanese water bottle with a bullet hole right through it that we found up there.

strewth
03-10-2005, 03:46 AM
I found a couple of photos. I have to scan them in. My father still has a photo somewhere of a wildcat that was pulled out of the jungle still in pretty good condition. Looking for them especially

LEXX_Luthor
03-10-2005, 06:34 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

jeanba2
03-10-2005, 06:42 AM
I am certainly dreaming but I would like a "skinnable map" ie : a map on which people can add their own skin (ie : spring, winter, desert ...).
Given the good capacities of the communauty to create template and the number of existing objects, it would offer a lot of opportuniies.

csThor
03-10-2005, 07:03 AM
Still no go Luthor. Ian was asked not to do anything from the PTO and nearby theaters and he is sticking to this agreement.

I really believe that Kurland and Murmansk were also the last maps from him for FB/PF as I doubt MG will keep up support for further maps.

And BTW - the maps would probably still be too small to simulate things like the Slot or Indonesia. FB/PF's engine is geared towards tactical missions on the EF and not to PTO distances.

Buzzsaw-
03-10-2005, 08:57 AM
Salute

Thor has hit the nail on the head:

"FB/PF's engine is geared towards tactical missions on the EF and not to PTO distances."

This is the essential flaw in PF. The game engine cannot handle maps of the size required for the Pacific. Not at 1-1 scale.

The maps for the Theater should either have been done at 1/2 scale, or the sea area between locations should have been compressed. Making 1-1 maps in the PTO is just not a viable option, especially if you are limited to the time compression tools available from IL-2/FB engine.

If the New Guinea/Rabaul area had been done at 1/2 scale, then we would have a viable set of campaigns for the whole Guadalcanal campaign, as well as the New Guinea campaigns and the air campaign to isolate Rabaul.

A decent Burma map could also be made at 1/2 scale, trying to do it at 1-1 is completely impractable.

With 1/2 scale, and compressed sea distances, we could have had Okinawa and Southern Japan on the same map.

Reduced scale would have detracted almost nothing from the realism of the sim. So what if you don't spend 4 hours flying over empty water and terrain? That was the number one complaint anyway for PF, better to reduce scale and compress and make the game playable with a better selection of maps.

Capt._Tenneal
03-10-2005, 10:22 AM
I looked up distances on the net and present day Rabaul to Honiara, Guadalcanal (the capital) is 1741 km./1082 miles distance.

Moved to the Eastern Front with origin point being Moscow, the equivalent distance (approximate) will end around Oslo, Norway. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

csThor
03-10-2005, 11:24 AM
Precisely my point, Capt._Tenneal.

GerritJ9
03-10-2005, 02:37 PM
The Singapore map will be about 275 x 275 miles, or 400 x 400 km. For east Java, this could cover the island east of Tajoe and would include the site of the eastern invasion landing, as well as the area where the Java Sea battle was fought and would also include Bali. This would make dogfights over Soerabaja a great possibility!

Saunders1953
03-10-2005, 03:06 PM
Don't mean to steal this thread people, just wanted to thank Strewth for the information. I am soooo jealous. I thought I had it good with a cool ravine behind my house which, of course, was a perfect trench to fight off the Japanese, Germans, Rebels, Indians, and Redcoats. It sucks in comparison! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

On point, I would definitely pay for more maps for PF--even smaller scale historical or quasi-historical maps. I agree with Lexx that an archipelego would be best so that the Slot and Sumatra/Java/Borneo/Malaysia could be simulated. But realistically, does this idea have a decent chance of seeing the light of day? I sure hope so.

LEXX_Luthor
03-10-2005, 06:07 PM
It would be sweet for UBI to make a Map CD, sell it online or in paper slip CD envelope.


Don't let csThor or Buzzsaw buffalo (trick) you fellas. They are slipping you a Brewster!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

IanBoys cannot make PF maps right now, but Oleg/UBI can, if they want to. We already know this.


Buzzsaw:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
This is the essential flaw in PF. <span class="ev_code_yellow">The game engine cannot handle maps of the size required for the Pacific</span>. Not at 1-1 scale.

The maps for the Theater should either have been done at 1/2 scale, or the sea area between locations should have been compressed. Making 1-1 maps in the PTO is just not a viable option, <span class="ev_code_yellow">especially if you are limited to the time compression tools available from IL-2/FB engine.</span>
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Buzz, nowhere do you say PF cannot run large simplified maps. You only indicate that some people would not enjoy flying long distances.

Capt_T:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I looked up distances on the net and present day Rabaul to Honiara, Guadalcanal (the capital) is 1741 km./1082 miles distance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1740/2 = 870 ... Buzzsaw, 870km is twice the size of the largest PF map. Is that still too large for you? Yes? No?

If 1/2 scale can help Simplify the maps for the Devs, then whatever it takes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif In the end, I would like to have some real 1-1 sized Pacific maps. For online dogfight Death Match, they can use 1/72 scale. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif