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Monterey13
04-25-2008, 07:19 AM
WOW!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVH8dI-ZTbA

TgD Thunderbolt56
04-25-2008, 07:21 AM
Preddy was a stone-cold stud...period.

Schwarz.13
04-25-2008, 08:12 AM
"Reveille came just 20 minutes after Preddy hit the sack"

He had no sleep AND threw-up in his oxygen mask http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

S!

Metatron_123
04-25-2008, 09:07 AM
Great story!

But its' glaringly apparent that even Il-2s rookie setting cannot be compared with the pilots he was up against. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

DKoor
04-25-2008, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by Metatron_123:
Great story!

But its' glaringly apparent that even Il-2s rookie setting cannot be compared with the pilots he was up against. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif That is true... also I remember one Soviet pilot shooting down 9 or so Ju-87s on one day, he perished soon after that. However Preddy wasn't flying against bombers or some sort of inferior aircraft; Bf-109 & FW-190 were extremely dangerous aircraft of their time. Therefore his achievement is highly remarkable.

DKoor
04-25-2008, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
Preddy was a stone-cold stud...period. Yes, one must be really cold-blooded to do some stuff like that, that is mark of the great fighter pilots.

Monterey13
04-25-2008, 09:26 AM
We don't know enough about those pilots to make a judgement call. We only get to see the last few seconds where he gets on their 6 and lets them have it. Who knows what the rest of the fight was like?

Hkuusela
04-25-2008, 09:31 AM
There is also the incident of FAF Lt Jorma Sarvanto shooting down 6 DB-3's in 4-5 minutes in his Fokker D.XXI during the Winter War.

Von_Rat
04-25-2008, 10:12 AM
considering 80 percent or whatever pilots never saw the plane that shot them down, id say its a safe bet that most of these never saw him either.

bad sa is all that says about their flying skills, nothing more.

Choctaw111
04-25-2008, 10:33 AM
George Preddy and several others were the things of legend that I grew up reading and daydreaming about. I just wished that I could have flown with them. This sim is the closest I will ever get.
Preddy's Six was a household phrase growing up, at least in my house http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BWaltteri
04-25-2008, 11:14 AM
I didn't know about him.

But scoring kills is just like hockey.

One goal against Canada is way more than 6 goals against Poland.

TgD Thunderbolt56
04-25-2008, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by BWaltteri:
I didn't know about him.

But scoring kills is just like hockey.

One goal against Canada is way more than 6 goals against Poland.

Yeah, I admire them both quite a bit, but IMO Preddy's 31 was way more than McCampbell's 34 too.

dirkpit7
04-25-2008, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by BWaltteri:
I didn't know about him.

But scoring kills is just like hockey.

One goal against Canada is way more than 6 goals against Poland.

Interesting point of view.

What do Canada and Poland stand for in this context?

Uzunov
04-25-2008, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
... also I remember one Soviet pilot shooting down 9 or so Ju-87s on one day, he perished soon after that.
That was the article of a certain Russian magazine where I first read about La-5. Long time ago...

9 Ju-87 is just right. And unfortunately, the pilot Aleksander Gorovetz fell in that very same fight. I still remember that article saying that the pilot got carried away by the string of shootdowns and he did not notice the German pilot sneaking behind him.

http://wio.ru/ww2a.htm

Blood_Splat
04-25-2008, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
considering 80 percent or whatever pilots never saw the plane that shot them down, id say its a safe bet that most of these never saw him either.

bad sa is all that says about their flying skills, nothing more. That's the way most pilots would like to make their kills.

Badsight-
04-25-2008, 04:57 PM
the WW2 pilot with the best kill/sortie record managed to bag 8 P-40's in one sortie

he got wasted during the war tho

R_Target
04-25-2008, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
Yeah, I admire them both quite a bit, but IMO Preddy's 31 was way more than McCampbell's 34 too.

Dunno about that. On McCampbell's big day, the odds were 40 to 2 against McCampbell and Rushing.

SeaFireLIV
04-25-2008, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:


bad sa is all that says about their flying skills, nothing more.

Haha! how bold a statement. I`d like to see you do as well. You`d probably miss every one and end up with the guy on your six!

There is something called flying, aiming and shooting on target without missing - and not in a game!

TgD Thunderbolt56
04-25-2008, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by R_Target:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
Yeah, I admire them both quite a bit, but IMO Preddy's 31 was way more than McCampbell's 34 too.

Dunno about that. On McCampbell's big day, the odds were 40 to 2 against McCampbell and Rushing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't belittle David McCampbell in the least. A 1/48 scale model I built when i was 13 graced my room until I left home and I read as much about him as I could. He was a consummate killer indeed. But don't forget 10 of his kills were during the Turkey Shoot against untrained kids for the most part too.

Von_Rat
04-25-2008, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:


bad sa is all that says about their flying skills, nothing more.

Haha! how bold a statement. I`d like to see you do as well. You`d probably miss every one and end up with the guy on your six!

There is something called flying, aiming and shooting on target without missing - and not in a game! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


where the f##k do you see me claiming i could do better.

i was just commenting on the fact that since so many kills where made by unseen attackers irl, the odds were good that was what happened in this case. if 6 guys get jumped in 5 mins by the same guy i'd call that bad sa on the victims part.

i guess that simple thought was over your head.

Monterey13
04-25-2008, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
the WW2 pilot with the best kill/sortie record managed to bag 8 P-40's in one sortie

he got wasted during the war tho

Got a name? Let's hear more.

jensenpark
04-25-2008, 11:05 PM
referring to Marseilles?

BWaltteri
04-26-2008, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by dirkpit7:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BWaltteri:
I didn't know about him.

But scoring kills is just like hockey.

One goal against Canada is way more than 6 goals against Poland.

Interesting point of view.

What do Canada and Poland stand for in this context? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In case you were from Poland I have to say too that if this was about soccer it had been "six against Canada is less than one against Poland."

I meant that not only the amount of kills measure the excellency, it is also a matter of the status of the opponent.

Schwarz.13
04-26-2008, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by jensenpark:
referring to Marseilles?

I believe Marseille downed 6 P-40s in 11 minutes - the first 5 in 6 minutes.

I am happy to be corrected though...

SeaFireLIV
04-26-2008, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:


bad sa is all that says about their flying skills, nothing more.

Haha! how bold a statement. I`d like to see you do as well. You`d probably miss every one and end up with the guy on your six!

There is something called flying, aiming and shooting on target without missing - and not in a game! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


where the f##k do you see me claiming i could do better.

i was just commenting on the fact that since so many kills where made by unseen attackers irl, the odds were good that was what happened in this case. if 6 guys get jumped in 5 mins by the same guy i'd call that bad sa on the victims part.

i guess that simple thought was over your head. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It came from the F**king fact that you dismissed the pilot`s kill as though they were nothing. Perhaps that went over your head too.

M_Gunz
04-26-2008, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
However Preddy wasn't flying against bombers or some sort of inferior aircraft; Bf-109 & FW-190 were extremely dangerous aircraft of their time.

You put a green kid in either one and it's more danger to the rookie than anyone else.

It's NOT the plane, it's the pilot. Nobody EVER went up against just a plane.

Von_Rat
04-26-2008, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:


bad sa is all that says about their flying skills, nothing more.

Haha! how bold a statement. I`d like to see you do as well. You`d probably miss every one and end up with the guy on your six!

There is something called flying, aiming and shooting on target without missing - and not in a game! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


where the f##k do you see me claiming i could do better.

i was just commenting on the fact that since so many kills where made by unseen attackers irl, the odds were good that was what happened in this case. if 6 guys get jumped in 5 mins by the same guy i'd call that bad sa on the victims part.

i guess that simple thought was over your head. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It came from the F**king fact that you dismissed the pilot`s kill as though they were nothing. Perhaps that went over your head too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



i didnt dismiss those kills as nothing, infact i made no comment at all about the attackers skill. i stated a simple fact that most kills irl where against unaware pilots. and chances were that also figured in this case. that in no way discounts the attacking pilots skill, or the victims flying skill for that matter. but your to slow to unstand simple statments i guess.

i hope this is f**king clear enough even for you.

work on your reading comprehension, you really need it.

Manu-6S
04-26-2008, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
It came from the F**king fact that you dismissed the pilot`s kill as though they were nothing. Perhaps that went over your head too.

i didnt dismiss those kills as nothing. i stated a simple fact that most kills irl where against unaware pilots. and chances were that also figured in this case. that in no way discounts the pilots skill. but your to slow to catch on.

work on your reading comprehension, you really need it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



The most important thing in fighting was shooting, next the various tactics in coming into a fight and last of all flying ability itself.
Lt. Colonel W. A. "Billy" Bishop, RAF


Sure that pilot was a good sniper.

We can't know if he was also a good overall pilot or simply the guys he shot down were poor pilots (bad SA I mean).

These kind of episode happens very often in FD servers... guys who fly in formation at 3Km, so close that they can't cover each other (sometimes with the wingman on the six of his leader!!) and you sneak on their shoulders and kill them both...

And in IL2 is a lot more easier to detect enemy above (black dot) or behind (engine sound) = many people have a good SA.

Clipper_51
04-26-2008, 08:46 AM
Any WWII pilot that in RL was able to bring down multiples in one sortie against enemy fighters is a f'ning monster in my book. I'd like to see anyone one of you arm-chairers do it. probably **** your pants instead.

DustyBarrels77
04-26-2008, 10:44 AM
Good thing he didnt have il2 brownings http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Choctaw111
04-26-2008, 10:52 AM
SeaFire and VonRat, if we could get back on topic please. I have heard quite enough of this and is starting to upset me. Between the two of you, one is surely man enough to just let it go.
All VonRat said is that 80% of pilots never saw who shot them down. That in and of itself is bad situational awareness, to a degree. There are other factors that come into play that the opposing pilot can exploit that he will never be seen despite how good the SA is of the poor fellow he is about to shoot down. So perhaps VonRat's statement of saying that it was bad SA isn't entirely accurate. That doesn't justify Seafire's remarks and then the back and fourth between the two. Come on guys. We're better than this. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Von_Rat
04-26-2008, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Clipper_51:
Any WWII pilot that in RL was able to bring down multiples in one sortie against enemy fighters is a f'ning monster in my book. I'd like to see anyone one of you arm-chairers do it. probably **** your pants instead.

agreed

i dont know how people are misreading my post to think i say anything thats not compatiable with your statment.

in fact i didnt comment on that pilots skill at all, but i agree it had to be great.

Von_Rat
04-26-2008, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:
SeaFire and VonRat, if we could get back on topic please. I have heard quite enough of this and is starting to upset me. Between the two of you, one is surely man enough to just let it go.
All VonRat said is that 80% of pilots never saw who shot them down. That in and of itself is bad situational awareness, to a degree. There are other factors that come into play that the opposing pilot can exploit that he will never be seen despite how good the SA is of the poor fellow he is about to shoot down. So perhaps VonRat's statement of saying that it was bad SA isn't entirely accurate. That doesn't justify Seafire's remarks and then the back and fourth between the two. Come on guys. We're better than this. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

my statment was made using just the infomation given.

i agree that other factors could apply as far as SA goes. heck some of those victims could of been aces for all we know. thats why i said in my 1st post that you couldnt judge the victims flying skills. (which was really the whole point of my post in the 1st place).

but all of a sudden thats twisted into me bashing the guy who shot them down, go figure.

M_Gunz
04-26-2008, 01:12 PM
We've seen written accounts here on how many things pilots in different planes had to do to go
from cruise to combat, in some cases 6 different actions that ate the critical seconds in a
bounce even with notice. Judging by "he didn't dodge" meaning "he never knew" is loose logic.
If we had CEM that damaged the engine on overload then we'd see more of that, how many players
observe proper order changing throttle and rpms or manage the same in dives to avoid shock
cooling? I know I don't!

Forget them clowns, Rat! That's just typical forum overreaction and reading in lines. You
didn't write what you're accused of, the posts are there to show it.

Von_Rat
04-26-2008, 02:15 PM
good point gunz.

i often wondered about how in most gun cam clips the target doesn't take anywhere near the instant violent evasive moves you often see in the game. your post explains some of that.


i guess i over reacted in my replys, its just that i find it insulting when someone implies that im under the impression that i'd be better than the real life guys who put their lives on the line, or that im belittling their achievments. this is just a game for crying out loud.

Krt_Bong
04-26-2008, 02:45 PM
Having an argument on the internet is a bit like being in the Special Olympics, even if you win you're still a ******.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Badsight-
04-26-2008, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by jensenpark:
referring to Marseilles?
cant remember his exact name . he died on the eastern front

just over 100 kills & sorties . flew the 109 iirc

best kill/sortie ratio of any WW2 pilot

BillyTheKid_22
04-26-2008, 04:44 PM
http://www.starduststudios.com/George_Preddy.jpg



http://www.jimlaurier.com/details/preddys.jpg



"The Preddy Brothers"
Geroge and Bill Preddy!!

Bo_Nidle
04-26-2008, 06:11 PM
An amazing pilot.

As for how the kills were achieved I think Robin Olds summed it up in an interview when he said "Dogfighting is not the romantic view of one pilot gallantly pitting his skills against an opponent. Dogfighting is sneak, surprise, slash, run!"

The lack of an opponents ability, most likely through inexperience, is how the vast majority of the famous aces achieved their status. The German aces racked up most of their large amount of victories against inexperienced Russian pilots in inferior machines. The RAF, USAAF and allied aces were no different nor the Japanese.

When you read their accounts it is invariably that the other chap didn't see him coming. Pilots shot down confirm this in their accounts.

And lets face it, in this sim how many times have you jumped out of your skin as you are reduced from spring-chicken to sh!teh@wk in one easy lesson and had no idea from whence all that nastiness came? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

IMHO any nations ace is to be admired. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

It was just such a tragedy how George Preddy met his demise - and such a depressingly familiar story even today.

zxwings
04-26-2008, 08:06 PM
The day on which he got the 6 kills was August 6, 1944. The following is an extract from a webpage.


Luftwaffe fighter pilot losses in March 1944 alone reached nearly 22 % of pilots present on 29 February 1944. In February 1944, nearly 18 % of the pilots present on 31 January 1944 had been lost. The losses surpassed the replacements, so rookies had to leave their pilot training schools before their training was completed and were sent into action - against numerically superior Allied air forces.

Thus, pilot training quality inevitably suffered. It started with the calling of many instructors to first-line service. This first step lowered the quality of the trainers themselves. Next, the pilot training schemes were shortened. Already in early 1944, the Luftwaffe fighter pilot training was shortened to an average of 160 flight hours. A few weeks later, it was further shortened to only 112 hours. Finally, in the spring of 1944, the B flight schools were disbanded, and the pilots were sent into first-line service directly after A schools. The condition for the A2 flight certificate included a basic training of sixty training flights with a total of 15 flight hours. Meanwhile, the average USAAF or RAF fighter pilot's training consisted of 225 flight hours.
The time talked about above was early 1944. Didn't find information about German pilot training during the second half of 1944.

Choctaw111
04-26-2008, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by BillyTheKid_22:
http://www.starduststudios.com/George_Preddy.jpg



http://www.jimlaurier.com/details/preddys.jpg



"The Preddy Brothers"
Geroge and Bill Preddy!!

Nice pictures Billy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

M_Gunz
04-26-2008, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by zxwings:
The day on which he got the 6 kills was August 6, 1944. The following is an extract from a webpage.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Luftwaffe fighter pilot losses in March 1944 alone reached nearly 22 % of pilots present on 29 February 1944. In February 1944, nearly 18 % of the pilots present on 31 January 1944 had been lost. The losses surpassed the replacements, so rookies had to leave their pilot training schools before their training was completed and were sent into action - against numerically superior Allied air forces.

Thus, pilot training quality inevitably suffered. It started with the calling of many instructors to first-line service. This first step lowered the quality of the trainers themselves. Next, the pilot training schemes were shortened. Already in early 1944, the Luftwaffe fighter pilot training was shortened to an average of 160 flight hours. A few weeks later, it was further shortened to only 112 hours. Finally, in the spring of 1944, the B flight schools were disbanded, and the pilots were sent into first-line service directly after A schools. The condition for the A2 flight certificate included a basic training of sixty training flights with a total of 15 flight hours. Meanwhile, the average USAAF or RAF fighter pilot's training consisted of 225 flight hours.
The time talked about above was early 1944. Didn't find information about German pilot training during the second half of 1944. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Compare that to the green kids that Britain sent up during the BoB, often with less than 10
hours in the planes they took up and the rest in trainers. I have yet to read of the LW
feeling sorry to have shot them down.

Remember who started the war, they could have quit at any time just as well.

badatit
04-26-2008, 11:38 PM
Great story, thanks for the link.

Wouldn't it be great if we had Preddys air craft in IL2 1946. What a plane.

zxwings
04-27-2008, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Compare that to the green kids that Britain sent up during the BoB, often with less than 10
hours in the planes they took up and the rest in trainers. I have yet to read of the LW
feeling sorry to have shot them down.

Remember who started the war, they could have quit at any time just as well.
Oh I was not sympathetic towards the 'evil' Luftwaffe in WWII. The extract was in reply to some words in the post immediately previous to mine, by Bo_Nidle:

The lack of an opponents ability, most likely through inexperience, is how the vast majority of the famous aces achieved their status. The German aces racked up most of their large amount of victories against inexperienced Russian pilots in inferior machines. .
I do feel however that all the aces, beside being unquestionably talented pilots, were also those who had better luck than others, with regard both to getting more kills, and to not getting killed or killed too early.

dirkpit7
04-27-2008, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by BWaltteri:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dirkpit7:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BWaltteri:
I didn't know about him.

But scoring kills is just like hockey.

One goal against Canada is way more than 6 goals against Poland.

Interesting point of view.

What do Canada and Poland stand for in this context? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In case you were from Poland I have to say too that if this was about soccer it had been "six against Canada is less than one against Poland."

I meant that not only the amount of kills measure the excellency, it is also a matter of the status of the opponent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely, I did understand your point and I agree. I just asked what countries you were referreing to with your hockey example.

And I'm pretty sure we're countrymen http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Clipper_51
04-27-2008, 06:31 AM
Getting 6 kills against rookies is still an amazing accomplishment. you're nervous, (in this case) hungover, you have to position your plane properly, aim correctly, keep watch over bandits approaching and do it all in 5 mins. absolutely amazing if you ask me.

We'll never know who flew the 109's that day or their level of skill. Based on the rapidity of Preddy's bounce and resulting handiwork, I don't think it matters much.

Choctaw111
04-27-2008, 09:09 AM
At the time, did Preddy know what their pilot skill was? It doesn't matter who you are, going up against such odds is unnerving as you hope they can't fly better than you. Even going one on one is like that. My hat is off to those guys.

M_Gunz
04-27-2008, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by zxwings:
I do feel however that all the aces, beside being unquestionably talented pilots, were also those who had better luck than others, with regard both to getting more kills, and to not getting killed or killed too early.

Luck for sure plays a part though some of those guys did prove to have working methods based
on skills. That includes the skill for picking good situation in many cases.

But then we have the American who drove Zeros away from his carrier in his Dauntless no less.
He did not start from advantage; only desperation, nerve and skill.

Butch O'Hare went against multiple Japanese bombers also from a poor start and saved his ship,
that was Feb 1942 against the best trained pilots. Though they flew Betty's his feat was still
exceptional.

Marseilles didn't have the luxury of fighting rookies every time and neither did Hartmann,
Rall and many other German Aces. Nor did Yeager who was shot down by one of those and later
did fight in poor odds for him. Bud Anderson wrote of his worst fight which was clearly
against a very experienced leader who had started the fight by bouncing Anderson's flight.

But yah you can roll up a score against rookies, dweebs and other mudhens easier than any
way otherwise! Just look at the scores a lot of players run up on kiddie-pool servers!

Schwarz.13
04-27-2008, 03:27 PM
The following is a good example of the 'fortunes of war' with regards to aces & rookies:

<span class="ev_code_yellow">'On the 11th [11th May 1944] the Eight Air Force flew two missions to numerous French and Belgian rail yards and airfields, in support of the Transportation Plan. I. and II. Jagdkorps scrambled 148 fighters, but the German-based units remained airborne only until it was obvious that no deep raids were intended, and most were then ordered to land. A few pilots , however, tangled with the leading bombers and there escorts. One such pilot was Oberst Walter Oesau, the JG1 Kommodore, who led a pair of Bf109s in an attack on a flight of P-38s. The Lightnings turned into the attack, out-turned the Messerschmitts, and after the American leader, Captain "Pappy" Doyle, fired a single high-deflection burst at the leading Bf109, broke away and resumed their escort. Doyle filed no claim until his combat film was developed, and then put in for one "damaged" Messerscmitt. Oesau had in fact been killed by a 20-mm shell, and his fighter crashed to the ground west of St. Vith. Doyle's victory had been scored during the 474th Fighter Group's first contact with the Luftwaffe; it had only been operational for two weeks. Oesau, on the other hand, was a career officer with 125 aerial victories and he was the holder of the Knights Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords. Oesau was a highly respected combat leader, and although men in his unit claim that he was by this time at the end of his physical and intellectual powers, his loss was impossible to fill, as it represented yet another reduction in the small number of successful RLV formation leaders.'</span> - Donald Caldwell

TX-Gunslinger
04-27-2008, 09:48 PM
Hauptman Hans Joachim Marseille - 1 September 1942 - North Africa - two sorties - 17 kills - 8 in 10 mins.

Hauptman Emil Lang - 3 Nov 1943, flying from Kiev-West - 18 kills in 3 sorties.

Hauptman Eric Rudorffer - Greatest master of multiple kills in one sortie:

9 February 1943 - Tunisia, 8 British A/C in 32 minutes
15 February 1943 - 7 British A/C in 20 minutes
24 August 1943 - 5 Russian A/C during one mission. 3 more during the second mission that day.
14 September 1943 - 5 Russian A/C one mission
11 October 1943 - 7 Russian A/C in seven minutes
6 November 1943 - 13 Russian A/C in 17 minutes

The pilot with the greatest mission:kill ratio was Gunther Scheel - 71 victories in 70 missions on the Eastern front with JG54, until crashing and capture. While he had several sorties with multiple kills (max 4 Il2's) he did not come close to Hauptmans Rudorffer, Marseille and Lang.

Hauptman Rudorffer also achieved 224 kills in all theaters but most importantly achieved what neither George Preddy, Hans-Jochiam Marseille, "Bully" Lang, or Gunther Scheel were fortunate enough to come out of WWII with.

His life. Rudorffer lived to a ripe old age.

None of the above achievements takes away from the great George Preddy and his greatest day.

S~

Gunny

WTE_Ibis
04-28-2008, 04:01 AM
Here is a pilot most wont have heard of but he downed five JU87s in one day to add to his tally of twenty German and Italian planes and eight Japanese.
This also touches on the earlier thread of Australians refusing to fight.
I wouldn't call this man a coward, just not stupid enough to throw away his and his mens' lives for absolutely nothing but the ego of desk bound so called "superiors".

http://www.awm.gov.au/fiftyaustralians/6.asp

http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/OG1998

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Ibissix//OG1998.jpg



.

Capt.LoneRanger
04-28-2008, 04:24 AM
As it was posted before, it all depends on the settings. It's not just good vs bad, numbers vs numbers, not even rookies vs veterans - there is a lot more to the outcome of a battle than just these figures.

To the highest scoring pilots, well, that also is a longer story than most people think. German aces for example entered WW2 with a lot of experience and credits from the Spanish Civil War. Question is, though, if that experience goes beyond aim and fire, as their opponents were largely flying WW1-machines.
Same is for the famous AVG. They shot down 300 Aircraft, loosing only 14 in less than a year. Sure thing - they were fighting against a large number of totally outdated and even unarmed Japanese planes.

Does that lower their credit? Not at all. They were still good pilots and did a great job in many regards, but nevertheless you should see what is behind the numbers and not fall for propaganda and expect any newbie-P51-jockey in IL2 to fly missions with the same results or draw conclusions about these incidents and ingame-stats.

Schwarz.13
04-28-2008, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
As it was posted before, it all depends on the settings. It's not just good vs bad, numbers vs numbers, not even rookies vs veterans - there is a lot more to the outcome of a battle than just these figures.


Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
The following is a good example of the 'fortunes of war' with regards to aces & rookies:

<span class="ev_code_yellow">'On the 11th [11th May 1944] the Eight Air Force flew two missions to numerous French and Belgian rail yards and airfields, in support of the Transportation Plan. I. and II. Jagdkorps scrambled 148 fighters, but the German-based units remained airborne only until it was obvious that no deep raids were intended, and most were then ordered to land. A few pilots , however, tangled with the leading bombers and there escorts. One such pilot was Oberst Walter Oesau, the JG1 Kommodore, who led a pair of Bf109s in an attack on a flight of P-38s. The Lightnings turned into the attack, out-turned the Messerschmitts, and after the American leader, Captain "Pappy" Doyle, fired a single high-deflection burst at the leading Bf109, broke away and resumed their escort. Doyle filed no claim until his combat film was developed, and then put in for one "damaged" Messerscmitt. Oesau had in fact been killed by a 20-mm shell, and his fighter crashed to the ground west of St. Vith. Doyle's victory had been scored during the 474th Fighter Group's first contact with the Luftwaffe; it had only been operational for two weeks. Oesau, on the other hand, was a career officer with 125 aerial victories and he was the holder of the Knights Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords. Oesau was a highly respected combat leader, and although men in his unit claim that he was by this time at the end of his physical and intellectual powers, his loss was impossible to fill, as it represented yet another reduction in the small number of successful RLV formation leaders.'</span> - Donald Caldwell

It should be said that while the 474th were 'rookies' and Oesau an experienced Experte, the rookies (in this case) had the benefit of excellent training, were 'fresh', and i'm sure eager to close with the enemy in combat and prove themselves. Whilst Oesau and other veteran leaders were literally 'flown out' from several years of warfare and continous action.

I'm sure good and bad luck played their parts too...

Badsight-
04-28-2008, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
The pilot with the greatest mission:kill ratio was Gunther Scheel - 71 victories in 70 missions on the Eastern front with JG54, until crashing and capture. While he had several sorties with multiple kills (max 4 Il2's) he did not come close to Hauptmans Rudorffer, Marseille and Lang.
thats the guy

8 P-40's in the sortie was his best

tragentsmith
04-28-2008, 05:35 AM
It was exactly the same for Marseille. At the end he was exhausted fighting all those allied fighters.

I read somewhere that Marseille alone scored 12% of all the allied aircraft shot down in North Africa during the battle in Africa.

His record was 17 aircrafts shot down in one day. And 158 total.

SheerLuckHolmes
04-28-2008, 05:44 AM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:


To the highest scoring pilots, well, that also is a longer story than most people think. German aces for example entered WW2 with a lot of experience and credits from the Spanish Civil War. Question is, though, if that experience goes beyond aim and fire, as their opponents were largely flying WW1-machines.


Funny how often "yank-whiners" try to tell us that german aces had so much experience and old kills.. considering that Hartman (+350 kills) and Lipfert (+200 kills) and many other started their flying career only in 1942. And then they claim also that polish, french and russian planes were WW1-machines or only little better. They simply can't accept that german aviators were the best (well, they lose the war, but who cares) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
But I'm not claiming that Capt Lonely is a "...-whiner"
No offence m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

berg417448
04-28-2008, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by SheerLuckHolmes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:


To the highest scoring pilots, well, that also is a longer story than most people think. German aces for example entered WW2 with a lot of experience and credits from the Spanish Civil War. Question is, though, if that experience goes beyond aim and fire, as their opponents were largely flying WW1-machines.


Funny how often "yank-whiners" try to tell us that german aces had so much experience and old kills.. considering that Hartman (+350 kills) and Lipfert (+200 kills) and many other started their flying career only in 1942. And then they claim also that polish, french and russian planes were WW1-machines or only little better. They simply can't accept that german aviators were the best (well, they lose the war, but who cares) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
But I'm not claiming that Capt Lonely is a "...-whiner"
No offence m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny how the very same thing happens when someone posts a thread about the success of an Allied pilot. We've seen in this very thread the attitude "Oh he was probably just shooting down rookies who could barely fly". Same old UBI forums standard.

SheerLuckHolmes
04-28-2008, 09:19 AM
Opened my fishing season today http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SheerLuckHolmes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:


To the highest scoring pilots, well, that also is a longer story than most people think. German aces for example entered WW2 with a lot of experience and credits from the Spanish Civil War. Question is, though, if that experience goes beyond aim and fire, as their opponents were largely flying WW1-machines.


Funny how often "yank-whiners" try to tell us that german aces had so much experience and old kills.. considering that Hartman (+350 kills) and Lipfert (+200 kills) and many other started their flying career only in 1942. And then they claim also that polish, french and russian planes were WW1-machines or only little better. They simply can't accept that german aviators were the best (well, they lose the war, but who cares) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
But I'm not claiming that Capt Lonely is a "...-whiner"
No offence m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny how the very same thing happens when someone posts a thread about the success of an Allied pilot. We've seen in this very thread the attitude "Oh he was probably just shooting down rookies who could barely fly". Same old UBI forums standard. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AND I GOT A BIG ONE....
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
04-28-2008, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by SheerLuckHolmes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:


To the highest scoring pilots, well, that also is a longer story than most people think. German aces for example entered WW2 with a lot of experience and credits from the Spanish Civil War. Question is, though, if that experience goes beyond aim and fire, as their opponents were largely flying WW1-machines.


Funny how often "yank-whiners" try to tell us that german aces had so much experience and old kills.. considering that Hartman (+350 kills) and Lipfert (+200 kills) and many other started their flying career only in 1942. And then they claim also that polish, french and russian planes were WW1-machines or only little better. They simply can't accept that german aviators were the best (well, they lose the war, but who cares) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
But I'm not claiming that Capt Lonely is a "...-whiner"
No offence m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny that Hartmann and Lipfert are the only highest scoring German aces.

I honestly wonder, though, if you really think a P.11, Romano R-82, Renard-Stampe-Vertongen 32/85, Polikarpov R-Z, Nieuport-Delage NiD 52, Loire 46, etc. compete with the 109C/D on an evenly matched basis. You also shouldn't be misled by the all-perfect-like-they-were-meant-to-be-non-failure-models we have in IL2 on the Eastern front.

And then, it really makes me laugh about that Yank-Whiner, considering I also mentioned the AVG.... Dunno, but something doesn't really fit there.

Hkuusela
04-28-2008, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
And then, it really makes me laugh about that Yank-Whiner, considering I also mentioned the AVG.... Dunno, but something doesn't really fit there.
Well, he specifically said he wasn't calling you a Yank-Whiner, so...

Btw, I don't think the I-16 was equal to the 109, but it sure as h*ll wasn't a "WW1 machine". And there were some 500 I-16's in the war.

M_Gunz
04-28-2008, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
To the highest scoring pilots, well, that also is a longer story than most people think. German aces for example entered WW2 with a lot of experience and credits from the Spanish Civil War. Question is, though, if that experience goes beyond aim and fire, as their opponents were largely flying WW1-machines.

The *highest* scoring German Ace made his first kill late in 1942 and the second much later.

M_Gunz
04-28-2008, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by tragentsmith:
It was exactly the same for Marseille. At the end he was exhausted fighting all those allied fighters.

I read somewhere that Marseille alone scored 12% of all the allied aircraft shot down in North Africa during the battle in Africa.

His record was 17 aircrafts shot down in one day. And 158 total.

He wasn't shot down. His 'error' was going up in a faulty airplane.

SheerLuckHolmes
04-28-2008, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SheerLuckHolmes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:


To the highest scoring pilots, well, that also is a longer story than most people think. German aces for example entered WW2 with a lot of experience and credits from the Spanish Civil War. Question is, though, if that experience goes beyond aim and fire, as their opponents were largely flying WW1-machines.


Funny how often "yank-whiners" try to tell us that german aces had so much experience and old kills.. considering that Hartman (+350 kills) and Lipfert (+200 kills) and many other started their flying career only in 1942. And then they claim also that polish, french and russian planes were WW1-machines or only little better. They simply can't accept that german aviators were the best (well, they lose the war, but who cares) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
But I'm not claiming that Capt Lonely is a "...-whiner"
No offence m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny that Hartmann and Lipfert are the only highest scoring German aces.

I honestly wonder, though, if you really think a P.11, Romano R-82, Renard-Stampe-Vertongen 32/85, Polikarpov R-Z, Nieuport-Delage NiD 52, Loire 46, etc. compete with the 109C/D on an evenly matched basis. You also shouldn't be misled by the all-perfect-like-they-were-meant-to-be-non-failure-models we have in IL2 on the Eastern front.

And then, it really makes me laugh about that Yank-Whiner, considering I also mentioned the AVG.... Dunno, but something doesn't really fit there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Relax m8.. this was only fishing.. and I got another one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I accept all claims that allied pilots were best of all and all their achievements were greater than anything german... and though german were inferior compared to allied, maybe they just were more skillfull... haha

But in truth.. of all those german aces with more than 200 kills only few had kills in Spain and quite many started their combat career only after the outbreak of war.
And every ace (no matter what nation) was a hero and should have some respect from us armchair aviators.

SheerLuck Holmes

Capt.LoneRanger
04-28-2008, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Hkuusela:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
And then, it really makes me laugh about that Yank-Whiner, considering I also mentioned the AVG.... Dunno, but something doesn't really fit there.
Well, he specifically said he wasn't calling you a Yank-Whiner, so...

Btw, I don't think the I-16 was equal to the 109, but it sure as h*ll wasn't a "WW1 machine". And there were some 500 I-16's in the war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the contrary. He said he is "not claiming that Capt.Lonely is a '...-whiner'", but he said that yank-whiners try to tell you, that german aces had so much experience and old kills. As in some regards I actually said the later, which actually makes me a yank-whiner, but not a ...-whiner.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif


I also didn't say that the I-16 was WW1-equipment. But how many top-scoring aces flew the I-16?


@SheerLuckHolmes

I'm not at all upset. I'm here for far too long to take things personal or even serious... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif If I would, I'd be rather upset as always people take one line or paragraph out of a post instead of getting the message. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Hkuusela
04-28-2008, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
On the contrary. He said he is "not claiming that Capt.Lonely is a '...-whiner'", but he said that yank-whiners try to tell you, that german aces had so much experience and old kills. As in some regards I actually said the later, which actually makes me a yank-whiner, but not a ...-whiner.
Oh... yes... terribly sorry about that old boy... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif


Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
I also didn't say that the I-16 was WW1-equipment. But how many top-scoring aces flew the I-16?
Well, you said the opponents were largely flying WW1 machines. They were not. They were largely flying I-15's and I-16's. Far from WW1.

Capt.LoneRanger
04-28-2008, 03:07 PM
Yeah, Hkuusela, that is the problem if you take things a) literally and b) out of the context.

I never said 109s opponents were largely fighting WW1 aircraft.
I said their pre-WW2 opponents were largely WW1, taking the SpanishCivilWar as an example. And most of these planes really were Biplanes looking very much WW1 and having their first flights in the mid-20s the latest. That doesn't mean they literally were salvaged from WW1, but they didn't evolve as much beyond that, unlike a plane like the 109.

The same way experiences made during these times directly influenced modern German tactics and training. So, if you don't take it literally but think about it, even pilots starting in 1942 could largely benefit from the experiences made in these times. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

M_Gunz
04-28-2008, 06:21 PM
The introduction of the Clark-Y wing at the end of the 20's was a huge departure from what
came before. The closest thing in WWI was the Gottingen thick wings used on the DrI and
Fokker DVII, perhaps on the DVIII but those were still far short of the Clark-Y.

The biplanes of the 30's were so far beyond WWI biplanes in terms of flight and maneuver it
just wasn't funny. Stall characteristics alone are a world apart.

And how did German Aces who started in late 1942 rack up experience in the Spanish Civil War
or get experience in mid to late 1941 when the 100's of Russian biplanes, most on the ground,
were destroyed?

SOME German Aces did but the best did not get most of their scores in those days or those ways.
Trying to say so is just another form of revisionism, same as saying US Aces scored big by 20:1
attacks on rookie German pilots and always the Ami pilots outnumbered their foes. All BS.

Hkuusela
04-28-2008, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
Yeah, Hkuusela, that is the problem if you take things a) literally and b) out of the context.

I never said 109s opponents were largely fighting WW1 aircraft.
I said their pre-WW2 opponents were largely WW1, taking the SpanishCivilWar as an example.
I understood this and replied, that that is not true. The Republican Air Force was largely I-15's and I-16's that were nowhere near WW1. That's not out of context.

I understand your point about Spanish Civil War influencing German fighter tactics. It probably helped the Luftwaffe train their pilots.

DKoor
04-28-2008, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Ibis:
Here is a pilot most wont have heard of but he downed five JU87s in one day to add to his tally of twenty German and Italian planes and eight Japanese.
This also touches on the earlier thread of Australians refusing to fight.
I wouldn't call this man a coward, just not stupid enough to throw away his and his mens' lives for absolutely nothing but the ego of desk bound so called "superiors".

http://www.awm.gov.au/fiftyaustralians/6.asp

http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/OG1998

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Ibissix//OG1998.jpg



. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Related to it; here is the guy who managed to bag 7 Ju-87's in one sortie... Maj. Bill Leverette; overall tally of him and his buddies at that day was 16 Ju-87 and 1 Ju-88. His buddy that flew with him Lt. "Troy" Hanna bagged five Stukas. They flew P-38's.

http://www.nostalgicaviation.com/New%20Photos/Leverette%202.jpg

BTW his achievement in that mission was hi score in one mission of all American pilots during the war.

DKoor
04-29-2008, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
The pilot with the greatest mission:kill ratio was Gunther Scheel - 71 victories in 70 missions on the Eastern front with JG54, until crashing and capture. While he had several sorties with multiple kills (max 4 Il2's) he did not come close to Hauptmans Rudorffer, Marseille and Lang.
thats the guy

8 P-40's in the sortie was his best </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That kind of score would be quite tough to do even in this game. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

DKoor
04-29-2008, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tragentsmith:
It was exactly the same for Marseille. At the end he was exhausted fighting all those allied fighters.

I read somewhere that Marseille alone scored 12% of all the allied aircraft shot down in North Africa during the battle in Africa.

His record was 17 aircrafts shot down in one day. And 158 total.

He wasn't shot down. His 'error' was going up in a faulty airplane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes... it is somehow funny when one is reading about fate of those guys... they were monsters in combat, excellent fighter pilots yet some of them perished in a very unusual way.

I remember reading about one German ace who traveled aboard the Ju-52, they went into some fog and crashed...

Strange twist of fate.

Capt.LoneRanger
04-29-2008, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by Hkuusela:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
Yeah, Hkuusela, that is the problem if you take things a) literally and b) out of the context.

I never said 109s opponents were largely fighting WW1 aircraft.
I said their pre-WW2 opponents were largely WW1, taking the SpanishCivilWar as an example.

I understood this and replied, that that is not true. The Republican Air Force was largely I-15's and I-16's that were nowhere near WW1. That's not out of context.

I understand your point about Spanish Civil War influencing German fighter tactics. It probably helped the Luftwaffe train their pilots. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is out of the context, because I posted that it was largely WW1planes and that is was never just planes, numbers or pilot abilities, but rather a combination and various other influences.
Same as I never said Hartmann flew in SpanishCivilWar.

Of course I would be delighted if you can quote my statement that an I-15 or an I-16 was WW1 equipment? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Anyway, Russia only started to deliver early I-15s "Chato" after the war had started. So it was not only few numbers at the start, when the Legion Condor had the chance to learn how to fight them, but the pilots were also not trained on this type, which rather supports all of my statements above.

This is a nice site about the planes that flew in the SpanishCivilWar. Please note that most of the transports listed on the Republican side are completely unarmed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/did.html

Hkuusela
04-29-2008, 01:05 AM
@Capt.LoneRanger
We seem to have different opinion on the meaning of the word "largely". The way I understand it, it means in this context, that the 109's fought mainly WW1 machines. That is the way Merriam Webster defines the word. This is not true, since the Republican Air Force flew mainly I-15's and I-16's. So taking the Spanish Civil War as an example just does not make sense.

I would like to see you quote the part where I say you said the I-15 or I-16 were WW1...! I told you they were not and hence your message is not accurate, because the 109's did not fight largely WW1 machines, but Soviet pilots in Soviet fighters. Apparently the Soviets did not gain from the experience the way the Germans did...

Capt.LoneRanger
04-29-2008, 01:56 AM
I think the question is rather how you take it.

The Legion Condor participated in the major attacks only, yet shot down 314 enemy planes.

Compared to 242 aircraft of Russian origin (flown by Spanish pilots), according to the Russians themselves, who were pretty upset the Spanish didn't pay their bills in 1956.

Between 1937 and 1938 a maximum of 450 "foreign" planes were in service (including volunteers / Russian Forces), over 120 of which were bombers, another large portion were recon- and transport-planes. Mid 1938 the Russian forces were withdrawn.

So you say the Legion Condor eliminated over 100% of all Russian Fighters ever participating in the Spanish Civil War? I doubt that. I rather bet there were some other planes in the numbers, like transports, recon-planes and the original planes of the Republican Air Force, like 60 Breguet XIX, 20 Vickers Vildebeest, 40 Nieuport-Delage Ni.D.52, 20 P.11, etc.

That also explains the outcome of the first major engagement in the battle in April 1937, where 100 of 150 fighters were lost for the Republican Forces, while Condor, Italy and Nationalists lose 23 all together.

Hkuusela
04-29-2008, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
Compared to 242 aircraft of Russian origin (flown by Spanish pilots), according to the Russians themselves, who were pretty upset the Spanish didn't pay their bills in 1956.
You probably know, that the Russian estimates vary. Yours is probably one of them. RGVA (Russian state military archives) puts the Soviet losses at 220 I-15's and 187 I-16's. The number of I-15 and I-16 Soviet pilots from the same source is 394.


Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
Between 1937 and 1938 a maximum of 450 "foreign" planes were in service (including volunteers / Russian Forces), over 120 of which were bombers, another large portion were recon- and transport-planes. Mid 1938 the Russian forces were withdrawn.
As you know the Soviet help was at its peak in the beginning of the war. Total Soviet losses were 567 planes, fighters and bombers, so your number is hardly relevant.


Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
So you say the Legion Condor eliminated over 100% of all Russian Fighters ever participating in the Spanish Civil War?
Actually it is you who says so. I don't know where you get that information, at least I have not said so.


Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
I doubt that. I rather bet there were some other planes in the numbers, like transports, recon-planes and the original planes of the Republican Air Force, like 60 Breguet XIX, 20 Vickers Vildebeest, 40 Nieuport-Delage Ni.D.52, 20 P.11, etc.
That does not constitute the majority of the losses, neither comes nowhere near the amount of the Soviet fighters. Hence, the word largely is not appropriate. Unfortunately your bet can not be considered as a source of information.


Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
That also explains the outcome of the first major engagement in the battle in April 1937, where 100 of 150 fighters were lost for the Republican Forces, while Condor, Italy and Nationalists lose 23 all together.
Could you please provide some information that would show that the majority of the Republican Air Force fighters were something else than I-15's and I-16's. That is the question at hand. Did the 109's fight largely WW1 machines or I-15's and I-16's. This information would be surprising, since the SU was the main provider of foreign aid to the Republican forces and the Republic had retained only two thirds of its 550 planes in the beginning of the war. However anything is possible, but I would have to see some sources.

Here is an interesting website on the matter:

http://www.gutenberg-e.org/kod01/kod01.html

Schwarz.13
04-29-2008, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
Yes... it is somehow funny when one is reading about fate of those guys... they were monsters in combat, excellent fighter pilots yet some of them perished in a very unusual way.

I remember reading about one German ace who traveled aboard the Ju-52, they went into some fog and crashed...

Strange twist of fate.

Are you perhaps thinking of Mölders? He died in November 1941 when his transport, taking him to the Eastern front (as General der Jagdflieger), crashed in bad weather...

SheerLuckHolmes
04-29-2008, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:


Anyway, Russia only started to deliver early I-15s "Chato" after the war had started. So it was not only few numbers at the start, when the Legion Condor had the chance to learn how to fight them, but the pilots were also not trained on this type, which rather supports all of my statements above.

This is a nice site about the planes that flew in the SpanishCivilWar. Please note that most of the transports listed on the Republican side are completely unarmed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/did.html

Good link... thanks. But have you thought that germans actually had more Arado and Heinkel biplane fighters than Messerschmitts in Spain?
And these biplanes were inferior to Soviet Polikarpovs. I think only one third of Legion Gondors fighters were Bf109. (not 100% sure about this).

SheerLuck Holmes

tragentsmith
04-29-2008, 04:59 AM
OK, now to settle this : You want to see what real ACES are ?

Look at this internet site and just take the 5 leading german aces score. Both in the Easter in the Western Front, so there's no argument like : They were fighting P11s or biplanes or whatever other stupidity ("it's not the plane, it's the pilot" I heard 2000 times when I said that the 109 was inferior to the 47...)
Compare to any other country and make your own conclusion :

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/

I like this website because all the details of the enemyy aircrafts shot down are really clear. You can see the type of the aircraft shot down and the date.

We have on the Western Front, 5 top scoring ACES together :

601 victories for 5 pilots. Among them mostly fighters.

Eastern Front, 5 top scoring ACES together :

1444 victories for 5 pilots.Mostly fighters too.

So the argument about fighting obsolete aircrafts is really not available.

Capt.LoneRanger
04-29-2008, 05:04 AM
Yeah, maybe with another few years in this forum I will finally learn to post EXACT numbers by 2 decimals, instead of going for the main content, just like everybody else does.

The Communist Party of Spain only won the election in 1936. I wonder how this can be the date their Russian brothers peaked their military support for the freshly installed regime? Well, anyway...


I suggest you read a bit of this:
http://www.historynet.com/spanish-civil-war-german-cond...ical-air-power.htm/1 (http://www.historynet.com/spanish-civil-war-german-condor-legions-tactical-air-power.htm/1)

Very interesting read, especially considering the quite reasonable organization of the Spanish Air Force at the start of the war, forcing the Spanish to beg France and Russia for support. It is also interesting that Knüppel, Eberhardt, Trautloft, von Houwald, Hefter and Klein scored 15 victories mostly against Nieuports and Potez, before the first shipment of I-15s arrived in Spain? Maybe you can tell them your numbers, so they can correct that?
It should also be noted, that from the 19 pilots from the Legion, who died in Spain, only 6 pilots died from enemy fire...

You also see a lot of other very renown names there, who participated in the airwar above Spain. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
And there are also some very nice notes on tactical conclusions and changes made during that period.

Capt.LoneRanger
04-29-2008, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by SheerLuckHolmes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:


Anyway, Russia only started to deliver early I-15s "Chato" after the war had started. So it was not only few numbers at the start, when the Legion Condor had the chance to learn how to fight them, but the pilots were also not trained on this type, which rather supports all of my statements above.

This is a nice site about the planes that flew in the SpanishCivilWar. Please note that most of the transports listed on the Republican side are completely unarmed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/did.html

Good link... thanks. But have you thought that germans actually had more Arado and Heinkel biplane fighters than Messerschmitts in Spain?
And these biplanes were inferior to Soviet Polikarpovs. I think only one third of Legion Gondors fighters were Bf109. (not 100% sure about this).

SheerLuck Holmes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFAIK the German military leaders used this war rather as a testing-platform. While there were only a few early 109s competing with Heinkels and some Arados in the beginning, it seems they constantly refitted and replaced their machines to adapt to the enemyplanes and mission-parameters.

But you are correct. In the beginning Heinkel 51 were often used and did very well against inferior Spanish planes, so it makes little sense the Spanish started out with I-15s and I-16s as their mainstay. I doubt an inferior number of Heinkel 51against I-15s and I-16s would make a reasonable background for the kill/death-ratio of the Legion.

You should also note, that a large part of this group were actually bombers and fighter-bombers, which just makes it very hard for me to believe the Spanish started with these planes in such large numbers.

Hkuusela
04-29-2008, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
The Communist Party of Spain only won the election in 1936. I wonder how this can be the date their Russian brothers peaked their military support for the freshly installed regime? Well, anyway...
"To meet the pressing needs of the Republican air force, and in response to direct requests from the Madrid government, Soviet planes were en route to Spain by early October 1936, just weeks after Stalin received the blueprint for Operation X. The first shipment of ten SB fast bombers arrived aboard the Staryi Bolshevik on 15 October, with two identical shipments following within a week. On 28 October, twenty-five I-15 biplane fighters arrived, and three days later, another fifteen. In the first week of November, thirty-one of the newer mono-wing I-16 fighters reached the Republican zone."

That's a hundred planes in Oktober-November 1936. The numbers are there, no need for conclusions. And you know, there are 365 days in 3 out of 4 years, so 1936 is not a date, it is a year with 366 dates. Well, anyway...

"By the end of the winter of 1937, the Republican air force had already begun to lose its advantage. The chief cause was the development of disparate supply patterns on either side. Despite suffering heavy losses, Hitler and Mussolini doggedly kept up their deliveries of aircraft and fresh pilots to the Nationalists. As newer and more efficient aircraft were developed in Germany and Italy, these were sent on to Franco's side. Conversely, the Soviet leadership began to decrease aircraft deliveries just as the German and Italian dictators were settling into a routine of consistent replenishment. For the Republic, this led to a marked decrease in the supply of aircraft compared to the first months of Soviet involvement [see Tables IV-3 and IV-4]. The number of planes delivered to Spain averaged over sixty per month in the period from October-December 1936. By early the summer of 1937, aircraft deliveries were down a third, to just forty per month, and they would continue to decrease for the remainder of the war."

I'm not just making this up you know...

http://www.gutenberg-e.org/kod01/kod20.html

PikeBishop
04-29-2008, 07:20 AM
Dear All,
Don't want to drag up old discussions but why is it that this 6 kills in 5 minutes is accepted without question.......(it is a propaganda film). But when it comes to Kinsuki Muto shooting down 4 Hellcats out of 12, it is questioned and Knitpicked hundreds of times over??
regards,
SLP

Schwarz.13
04-29-2008, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by PikeBishop:
Dear All,
Don't want to drag up old discussions but why is it that this 6 kills in 5 minutes is accepted without question.......(it is a propaganda film). But when it comes to Kinsuki Muto shooting down 4 Hellcats out of 12, it is questioned and Knitpicked hundreds of times over??
regards,
SLP

Sorry PikeBishop but this thread is no longer about Preddy's 6 in 5 - it is now a handbag fight between Capt. Loneranger and Hkuusela! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Hkuusela
04-29-2008, 07:44 AM
Oh yes, this is unheard of here: A debate evolving into something completely different than the starter had in mind. To think that I had to live to see this! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

P.S. What's a handbag fight (never too late to learn more English)?

TgD Thunderbolt56
04-29-2008, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by Hkuusela:
P.S. What's a handbag fight (never too late to learn more English)?

Kinda like one of these... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/Thunderbolt56/sissy-1.gif

Hkuusela
04-29-2008, 09:10 AM
Ok, I can take a joke... *looking for a baseball bat*

DKoor
04-29-2008, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Hkuusela:
Ok, I can take a joke... *looking for a baseball bat* This is the smiley you're looking for; http://www.mission4today.com/images/smiles/bat.gif http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
04-29-2008, 10:17 AM
LOL - I'm rather like that:
http://users.telenet.be/kotm/fmp/poster/bluff_2.jpg

So sorry, but I can't take thread like this serious, especially not since SheerLuckHolmes and Hkuuselas first replies. Just said it all for me, but funny as hell.

BWaltteri
04-29-2008, 10:32 AM
If there's somebody who doesn't know what is a handbag fight, I'd recommend him to watch a movie called Slap Shot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hkuusela
04-29-2008, 01:35 PM
O captain, my captain, if your bluff was to try to make an impression you knew something about the subject, you didn't quite pull it off... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dkoor, that's exactly the smiley I was looking for! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

R_Target
04-29-2008, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by PikeBishop:
Don't want to drag up old discussions but why is it that this 6 kills in 5 minutes is accepted without question.......(it is a propaganda film). But when it comes to Kinsuki Muto shooting down 4 Hellcats out of 12, it is questioned and Knitpicked hundreds of times over??

It's probably questioned because that's not how it happened. Muto had his squadron with him when four of twelve Hellcats were shot down in the VF-82 pilots' first combat sortie.

SheerLuckHolmes
04-30-2008, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:

So sorry, but I can't take thread like this serious, especially not since SheerLuckHolmes and Hkuuselas first replies. Just said it all for me, but funny as hell.

Good that you didn't upset. But as I wrote in my earlier posts, I was only fishing.. trolling...
You know the exitement when you sink the bait beneath surface and wait if you get anything...

M_Gunz
04-30-2008, 01:37 AM
You should catch a nice vacation for fishing out of season.

SheerLuckHolmes
04-30-2008, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
You should catch a nice vacation for fishing out of season.

rightyright http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif