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View Full Version : Amazing! why is it so hard to hit with P-39 cannon?



XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 11:01 PM
Ok, I`ve been flying FB on\offline for ages now. The lagg3 `41, I16, P40s, P47, Hurricanes (all types), LA5 series, Yaks, LA7s. I`ve flown some of the later Focke Wolves (nice planes once you get used to them), some of the Bfs and even the Stuka, all with varying degrees of success. I decide to give the P39N a proper go on campaign. Been flying 6 missions so far...

But what the hell is it with the cannon of the P-39 N? In IL2 and unpatched FB I could get a few hits with the cannon. But now it`s incredible hard to hit. I have tried lots of tactics, fire slightly high of target, further away if deflection, get closer, get even closer... Fire one shot at a time while aiming, fire rapid shots. Changing convergence settings. I always miss! With or without extra ammo!

The only time I managed a hit was when a Stuka turned hard in front of me showing its broad section of wing- then I took it off and this was at collision range (approx less than 75 m).

Hitting targets with the German MK108 is far more accurate and easier. What gives. Is there a tactic for a better chance to hit?
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).


Message Edited on 10/12/0310:02PM by SeaFireLIV

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 11:01 PM
Ok, I`ve been flying FB on\offline for ages now. The lagg3 `41, I16, P40s, P47, Hurricanes (all types), LA5 series, Yaks, LA7s. I`ve flown some of the later Focke Wolves (nice planes once you get used to them), some of the Bfs and even the Stuka, all with varying degrees of success. I decide to give the P39N a proper go on campaign. Been flying 6 missions so far...

But what the hell is it with the cannon of the P-39 N? In IL2 and unpatched FB I could get a few hits with the cannon. But now it`s incredible hard to hit. I have tried lots of tactics, fire slightly high of target, further away if deflection, get closer, get even closer... Fire one shot at a time while aiming, fire rapid shots. Changing convergence settings. I always miss! With or without extra ammo!

The only time I managed a hit was when a Stuka turned hard in front of me showing its broad section of wing- then I took it off and this was at collision range (approx less than 75 m).

Hitting targets with the German MK108 is far more accurate and easier. What gives. Is there a tactic for a better chance to hit?
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).


Message Edited on 10/12/0310:02PM by SeaFireLIV

Buzz_25th
10-12-2003, 11:07 PM
You too? I have to be 50m away to hit anything. I've gotten hits from 200m, but it always looked like the rest of the shots i've taken, and I can't figure out what was different to get a hit. Because of that. I can't repeat it.

It's a pain in the nuts, because I really like the plane otherwise. Always have since the IL2 demo.

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25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 11:19 PM
I know what you mean in away, I use to fly the P-39 quit abit and i was a prettty good shot with it. But for the last month i have mostly been flying the P-47's. The squad i joined last month mostly fly's the Jug. Im trying to use the P-39 a little more now but i cant hit anything with it most of the time now. I have to basicaly relurn how to aim with the P-39 now.

Even before the patch it took me a while to get decent with the P-39. For the last couple of days i have been using the QMB and using unlimitted amo. I would use the Q10 at 300m convergence. I usualy fight against 4 BFK4's, firing one shot at a time at any angle. I also set up friendly BF's too. it will take abit to get use to the 39 again but once you get use to aiming it will be werth your time.

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 11:28 PM
Low velocity, low rate of fire. A bad combination.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

Buzz_25th
10-12-2003, 11:36 PM
Low rate of fire is not the problem with me, because I just fire one shot at a time.

I've tried to figure out the lob. I've tried every convergence you can think of, but no success, Some days I can't miss. Other days I can't hit a thing. I just don't see a difference in what i'm doing. It's like the freaking cannon has a mind of it's own, and will only hit something if it feels like it../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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25th_Buzz
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http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/drew2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 11:42 PM
I noticed this also,for some reason the gun is not accurate anymore.In comparison try the hispano cannon on the hurrie or the mk108 in the 109"s you cant miss with them at any distance so it may just be the way oleg wants it I suppose.

Does anyone know if the game is settup to force a shot to miss every now and then?

No1RAAF_Pourshot
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XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 11:44 PM
I love this bird.. I fly it online almost exclusively. I think it's got progressively better with every patch!

I've noticed no change in the T9 though.. It's a deadly weapon and i use it often with great success.. Keep it under 200 metres.. get close and you'll do fine..

-Thanks to Freddie; i'm a sexual spastic.

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 11:52 PM
Hey buzz whats the story with the plane in your sig,It looks like the tail comes from another plane?



http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/drew2.jpg


No1RAAF_Pourshot
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CA-15%20Kangaroo.jpg

No1_RAAF

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2003, 11:55 PM
Go to the source. From an <a href=http://www.JG11.com/><img border="0" alt="III/JG11 Homepage" src=http://www.users.on.net/apoulos/jg11.jpg> (http://airforce.users.ru/lend-lease/english/articles/golodnikov/part3.htm>interview</a>)
Read the <a href=http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm>IL2 FAQ</a>
Got Nimrod? Try the unofficial <A HREF=http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=4870c2bc08acb0f130e5e3396d08d595>OT forum</A>

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 12:13 AM
I have flown the P-39 for over a year now, and I have developed a system for hitting at least 50% of the time. A few seconds before you shoot, start praying. Dont stop until you score a hit. Closing your eyes also helps.


Seriously, i think it is just that innacurate. You can test this out by parking against a hill and firing at it. Takng into account any movement from your aircraft, you will see that the shots are all over the place, even at 100m.

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Buzz_25th
10-13-2003, 12:21 AM
pourshot,

I didn't notice that. This one better?../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 12:29 AM
Ask anyone who has flown against my P-39. Im very accurate with it. I have about a 33-45% hit ratio on the 37MM. It takes a lot of skill and practice to hit with it. I can now hit in high deflections with the target flying paralell to mine, distance hits of .30 to .40 (300-400 meters) and a few head on's. This is my trick. I wear the target down with .50 cal's first. This makes them an easy target. I set convergance to 100M. Dont fire when your dead on there 6. Even if you strike, it will only damage there rudder. Hose them with .50 cal and wait for them to pull or turn. Then hit them. They present a LOT bigger target when they are turning.

Gib

No fancy quote or cool photo.... YET

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 12:46 AM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- pourshot,
-
- I didn't notice that. This one better?..<


It's all good with me I was just wondering if it was damaged in combat and repaired or something like that.I was thinking it may have a interesting story to go along with it.

No1RAAF_Pourshot
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CA-15%20Kangaroo.jpg

No1_RAAF

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 12:46 AM
I've also gotten pretty dead-eye w/ the 37mm. Given the choice, I prefer the Q-10, because I don't need all those MG anymore.

Practice is the key, I don't have a system, just sometimes it 'feels' right to fire. I mostly fire one aimed shot at a time w/ fighters and only open up when using slashing attacks on bombers.

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XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 12:52 AM
I've noticed the same thing-it wasn't nearly as hard to hit in IL-2.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/051003-Screen1.1a.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ZG77_Nagual
10-13-2003, 12:57 AM
Mostly I get close - however it is great fun when 262s are all confident and flying level away from you to take em out with a sniper shot. I practice offline vs 4 aces in whatever - try to keep it under 10 shots.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

Buzz_25th
10-13-2003, 12:59 AM
pourshot,

I can't find a reason of why the tail is like that. The plane was flown by Lt Urban L. Drew. Here's a story of him, and his P-51 "Detriot Miss"


Second Lieutenant Urban Drew began World War Two as a flight instructor, in seven months flying 700 hours in P-51 "Mustangs", while his cadets out had all of 60 hours in the P-51. After making an 'accidental' low pass over a parade of Army troops headed for the Far East, Drew got his chance for combat with atransfer just after D-Day to the 361st Fighter Group, which was flying ground support to Patton's Third Army. Drew flew 76 missions with the 361st, and says his hours of training gave him confidence he might not have had otherwise. Drew says when he gotto Europe, five kids in his group were pilots he'd trained and were already aces. Some were Captains and Majors yet they still called 2nd Lt.Drew, "Sir".

It was on a mission in October, 1944 that Drew first saw a German jet. Drew pursued the aircraft in what provedto be a futile chase. All he could do was fire his guns at a distance, to no avail, while the jet outran his "Mustang". Wanting to know more about the Me 262, Drew contacted his intelligence officers, who said they could not divulge secret information. From British intelligence, he found out, among other things the new jets were based at Achmer and at Lechfeld, Germany.

On a mission soon there after, Drew shot down an Bf 109. Performing a victory roll before landing, Drew was grounded for the maneuver. He and his squadron mate Billy Kemp, who'd also been grounded, were in their billet starting a bottle of bourbon, when Drew's squadron commander came in. "Put the bottle away" he said, because we're going on a mission to Brux, Czechoslovakia. There are Me 262s operating in the area, and you know more about them than anybody in this squadron. So, you're leading the mission."

October 7th. Drew was flying with wingman McCandless when he spotted the German airbase at Achmer and went down for a look. Two "Schwalbe's" were just taking off when Drew dived on them, McCandless keeping right with him. The first Me 262 exploded when hit by the .50s of "Detroit Miss". Drew says he was surprised when the second Me 262 tried to climb away, allowing him to turn inside and shoot away the jet's control surfaces. When Drew returned to base, he found that not only had his wingman failed to return after being hit by flak following Drew's victories, but the gun camera also failed. Only after the war did Drew learn his wingman had survived.

More than 40 years later, an Air Force clerk noticed Drew's claim for two Me 262 victories on the same mission. She contacteda custodian of German war records, who knew former Luftwaffe pilots whomight be able to shed light on the claim. Georg-Peter Eder had been set to lead the Me 262s of JG 7 that day, but when his aircraft had problems taking off the two-ill-fated pilots took off to lead JG 7. Eder says he saw a yellow-nosed P-51 dive on the Me 262s and shoot them down. Eder couldn't read "Detroit Miss" on the nose of the "Mustang", but his account was sufficient to confirm Drew's two Me 262 victories.

Drew says two of his three victories over Bf 109 pilots came relatively easily. "It's who's in the cockpit that counts." The third proved his toughest challenge.

Flying at about 23,000 feet, he saw a flight of P-38s fall prey to Bf 109s. The Germans dived past Drew and his wingman, and Drew pulled a hammerhead stall to come around behind one Messer. The German pilot saw him, went into a Lufbery, and Drew followed, the two aircraft in a tight cork screw down to 10,000 feet. That's when Drew asked himself, "Is this guy better than you? I had to put it out of my mind immediately, because if you don't, the wrong mother's son is going to come home that night."

Spiraling closer to the ground, Drew kept some altitude on the Messerschmitt, until the German pulled out. The G forcesin the Lufbery (about 7Gs) had jammed five of his six guns, but the one gun proved enough to down the Bf 109. Drew says this was the one time in his combat career he felt remorse over a victory. "I felt very bad, because I said, Drew, there was one of the great fighter pilots of all time. Who ever was flying that 109, he almost got you. And I was the best, as far as I was concerned. Maybe he was a big ace and maybe he wasn't, but by God he could fly that Messerschmitt."

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25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 01:08 AM
Thats not a P-51 in your sig. Thats why the tail is differant! Its something like a CA-21 or something like that. Its an Aussy build P-51 after the war. You can tell by the radiator, tail, and wings are differant.

Gib

Buzz_25th wrote:


No fancy quote or cool photo.... YET

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 01:14 AM
I like the hacked *** end but you historians get the goblet /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/051003-Screen1.1a.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 01:28 AM
Interesting and great responses, guys. I gotta agree with Buzz_25th that the cannon shots seem almost random, like they`re just hitting when they feel like it rather than for any logical reason.
Anyway, I`ll try a convergence of 100m (I`m a bit uncomfortable with that, I`m usually used to anything from 150 to 250). At the present moment I tend to use the mgs cos at least I can hit with them.
Perhaps, the P39 just isn`t for me.

Anyway, you guys are prob across the water and it`s 2:00am here, so I gotta sleep. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Thnx again.

"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 01:38 AM
You have to be real close 200 meters or less AND it is MUCH better when used as a deflection shot at the meat of the plane, not the six. Engine and wing shots are the best. One shot one kill type of weapon under those conditions.

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 01:55 AM
The trajectory factor is cool, it would be worth a question to OLEG if he modeled it with a high traj.


How you holding up black?


rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/051003-Screen1.1a.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



Message Edited on 10/12/0305:56PM by Rogodin

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 02:05 AM
Hey Rogo. Pretty good thanks. I was in a bad mood earlier. Looked for your screen shots of LOMAC, but didn't see a thread? Can't wait until you start posting those works of art that you make but for LOMAC instead. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ~S~.

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 02:17 AM
the russian pilots all say the same...farther than 50 meters its innacurate. which is correct. russian mig jet pilots from korea said similar things of their 20 mil cannons. not accurate past 100 yards. russian cannons for whatever reason are not accurate past short ranges. by russian pilot accounts during ww2 AND korea. this should be modelled in yaks the same as in the p39. but that will never happen in a russian game i know i know

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XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 02:26 AM
I think Chuck Yeager called it the "grapefruit gun" or something like that because when he shot, it was like lobbing a grapefruit out there. The velocity was low and the trajectory sank very quickly. The Mk.108 has a higher velocity and a flatter trajectory (though still not all that flat) so the 108 should be easier to hit with. I remember how you couldn't misss with the big gun Yaks in Il-2, at least they are harder to hit with now like the P-39.

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Message Edited on 10/13/0301:27AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 02:27 AM
I know that Gibbage I was refering to the one in buzz's sig.

The one in mine is a CAC-CA15 kangaroo and it's not really a copy of the mustang it's much larger,If you think about it what other way could you design a long range escort.I think they would all look like the mustang in the end.



http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CA15.jpg


Also it was powered by the griffon not the merlin and it had more range then the mustang.The test pilots comments was it's by far the best griffon instalation he ever flew behind.

Bye the way we did build mustangs under licance But I think it was after the war.

No1RAAF_Pourshot
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No1_RAAF

XyZspineZyX
10-13-2003, 02:28 AM
I've been lazy black /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

but I'll work on those LOMAC shots /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

thanks for the "thumb"

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/051003-Screen1.1a.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif