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View Full Version : Rate Of Cannon Fire Seems Set Too High



SeminoleX
01-10-2005, 12:07 PM
One quick tap on the cannon fire button results in a very high number of rounds being fired...in all the planes I have flown that are cannon equiped.

Seen from the external view a huge number of shell casings can be seen being ejected. Whether or not this graphic imaging is proportional to the number of shots actually fired...I don't know....but it seems that the rate of fire has been set too high for a sim that takes pride in realism.

SeminoleX
01-10-2005, 12:07 PM
One quick tap on the cannon fire button results in a very high number of rounds being fired...in all the planes I have flown that are cannon equiped.

Seen from the external view a huge number of shell casings can be seen being ejected. Whether or not this graphic imaging is proportional to the number of shots actually fired...I don't know....but it seems that the rate of fire has been set too high for a sim that takes pride in realism.

p1ngu666
01-10-2005, 12:10 PM
i think most cannons fire around 10 rounds per second (20-30mm)

VW-IceFire
01-10-2005, 12:15 PM
On what do you base this conclusion on? What is "too high" for a rate of fire on a cannon?

I'd suggest reading this website: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

Its a great resource for data on the firing rate, muzzle velocity, and so on for cannons, machine guns, and all types of fired weapons for WWII planes.

Just to prove my point, here's some base points of comparison.

MG151/20 (on the FW190 and 109s in FB) has a fire rate between 700 and 750 rpm (rounds per minute). The Hispano 20mm cannon (on the Spitfires, the P-38, P-40, Beaufighter, and others) has a fire rate of 600 rpm. The Russian ShVAK 20mm cannon(on most early to late war Russian fighters) has a fire rate of 800 rpm. Then we goto the big cannons like the MK108 (which is the 30mm hub cannon on the 109 and Ta-152H amongst others) which still has a fire rate of 600 to 650 rpm which is in the same class as the Hispano 20mm in terms of fire rate which is incredible for a heavy cannon (and one of the fastest firing). Just to compair to machine guns, the Browning .50cal M2 has a fire rate of 750-850 rpm and the German MG 131 (a common cowl heavy machine gun on the late 109s and 190s) has a fire rate of 900 rpm.

As you can see, the cannons aren't that far off and in some cases are nearly the same rate of fire as their heavy machine gun cousins. If you're talking about the MK108 30mm cannon mounted on many German birds then its also correct in that it has a very high fire rate for a heavy cannon. Probably one of the many reasons it was chosen for use.

Furthermore, this game accurately corresponds the number of rounds fire to the duration of fire time historically noted for the plane. So if you compare fire times on the Spitfire IXc to that listed by official documents the results are virtually identical. So this game is deadly accurate in these areas.

What you may be fighting against is the preconcieved notion that cannons in WWII era were very slow in firing compaired to heavy machine guns which is just not true...there is a difference in fire rates but its generally not a large one.

SlickStick
01-10-2005, 12:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
i think most cannons fire around 10 rounds per second (20-30mm) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds about right. This is one of the best links to WWII fighter armament that I've found. http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

For instance, the SHVAK 20mm fires at 800 rounds per minute = 13.33 rounds per second.

SlickStick
01-10-2005, 12:18 PM
Oops, posted while I was typing, eh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Ain't that a great table, IceFire? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

VW-IceFire
01-10-2005, 02:51 PM
Its certainly the best I've found online! Its a fascinating thing to look at.

I used to just assume that all cannons, machine guns, and whatnot were cut from the same mold but they are all quite a bit different and varried in their usage and abilities.

LStarosta
01-10-2005, 02:58 PM
Seminole, let's keep our whining down to stuff based on facts, not your personal opinion.

MEGILE
01-10-2005, 03:04 PM
This is exactly why Oleg shouldn't listen to Forum whiners... they talk alot of craph.

SeminoleX
01-10-2005, 06:34 PM
Thanks VW-IceFire for confirming my suspicions.

The cannon model with the higest rate of fire on the above chart is listed as a mere 14 shots per second. Naturally,of course, it stands to reason those with lower rates of fire would fire even fewer rounds per second.

Now then...Hold down the cannon fire button for a full second and it will become readily apparent that you have fired more than 14 shots....in fact many more ....even allowing for multiple cannon mounts per plane....no matter which plane you're are flying in the IL2 series..

I can only conclude that those who may have doubted my observations about a too high rate of fire must be having some difficulty distinguishing between exactly what is a machine gun and what is a cannon.

LEXX_Luthor
01-10-2005, 06:51 PM
How are you counting rate of fire?

SeminoleX
01-10-2005, 07:10 PM
That's the problem.

There is no way of doing it precisely.

Thus my statement that the rate of fire seems to be set too high.

What would you guess the number of shots coming from your cannons are each full second?

I would be astonished if you feel that you are getting off 14 or less per cannon per second.

The developers could clue us in on what the settings actually are...but will they?

I really do understand the opposition to the idea that the rate of fire might be too high. Online fliers would naturally want fast firing cannon for spray and pray needs. Offline players on the other hand are more attracted to historical situations.

LStarosta
01-10-2005, 07:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeminoleX:
That's the problem.

There is no way of doing it precisely.

Thus my statement that the rate of fire _seems_ to be set too high.

What would you _guess_ the number of shots coming from your cannons are each full second?

I would be astonished if you feel that you are getting off 14 or less per cannon per second.

The developers could clue us in on what the settings actually are...but will they?

I really do understand the opposition to the idea that the rate of fire might be too high. Online fliers would naturally want fast firing cannon for spray and pray needs. Offline players on the other hand are more attracted to historical situations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thus, you yourself have proven that your claims hold NO water and have NO credibility. Please, for everyone's sake, don't make a claim about what seems to be the case when you have no hard data to back it up with. It's considered trolling.

And to think that you were saying that WE couldn't distinguish between a cannon and an HMG...

WUAF_Badsight
01-10-2005, 07:44 PM
hey Starosta , he might not have been around when this was last discussed , lets cut some slack

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeminoleX:
That's the problem.

There is no way of doing it precisely. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
open the command consol (shift + tab)

type user STAT

it will give you info about what you have done in the game thus far , like the rounds you fired & the rounds that hit are some of the things that command can tell


.........BTW.......... There was also an upgraded model, the Ultra ShKAS, which had an extremely high rate of fire for its time: 2700 rpm. But this weapon seems to have seen no or very limited use, because Russian fighters were quick to adopt medium-calibre machineguns and cannon.

wicked for 1940

&

The USSR had an excellent cannon in the ShVAK, a compact, fast-firing and powerful weapon. The ShVAK was basically an enlarged ShKAS, and it also existed in a (very rare) 12.7 mm version. It was fitted to Soviet fighters throughout the war, but in 1945 its replacement by the equally performant, much lighter B-20 began. The B-20 was one of the best aircraft guns of the war.

the B-20 is what is fitted to La-7's no ?

FatBoyHK
01-10-2005, 07:46 PM
ha, funny thread, nice read, lol

VW-IceFire
01-10-2005, 07:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeminoleX:
That's the problem.

There is no way of doing it precisely.

Thus my statement that the rate of fire _seems_ to be set too high.

What would you _guess_ the number of shots coming from your cannons are each full second?

I would be astonished if you feel that you are getting off 14 or less per cannon per second.

The developers could clue us in on what the settings actually are...but will they?

I really do understand the opposition to the idea that the rate of fire might be too high. Online fliers would naturally want fast firing cannon for spray and pray needs. Offline players on the other hand are more attracted to historical situations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm arguing against your position actually. And what does a cannon VS a machine gun have to do with anything? The Browning .50cal has a similar fire rate to a MG151/20 or ShVAK 20mm which are both cannons. In all three cases, the rounds fired per second are between 12-15 per second. The differences in fire rates are slight. So quite honestly, the fire rates of cannons and machine guns are of limited points of comparison. The real difference is the size of the shell and the ability to pack ammunition. Traditionally, in the Luftwaffe, USAAF, and RAF the Cannon starts at 15mm or 20mm and up (with potential for explosive charges) while the machine gun is of 13mm or lower in size.

Also, my point about fire times is also a key indicator. The Spitfire IXc has 120 rpg and I think the recorded fire time for 120 rounds is 12 seconds. In game it corresponds to the same number...I checked. Furthermore, the user STAT system actually tells you the details of how many shots you've made so far. Go ahead and test it...if its a Spit IXc and you fire only the cannons then you should expend 240 rounds (120 per gun). I'll go test for fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JG53Frankyboy
01-10-2005, 08:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeminoleX:
That's the problem.

There is no way of doing it precisely.

Thus my statement that the rate of fire _seems_ to be set too high.

What would you _guess_ the number of shots coming from your cannons are each full second?

I would be astonished if you feel that you are getting off 14 or less per cannon per second.

The developers could clue us in on what the settings actually are...but will they?

I really do understand the opposition to the idea that the rate of fire might be too high. Online fliers would naturally want fast firing cannon for spray and pray needs. Offline players on the other hand are more attracted to historical situations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm arguing against your position actually. And what does a cannon VS a machine gun have to do with anything? The Browning .50cal has a similar fire rate to a MG151/20 or ShVAK 20mm which are both cannons. In all three cases, the rounds fired per second are between 12-15 per second. The differences in fire rates are slight. So quite honestly, the fire rates of cannons and machine guns are of limited points of comparison. The real difference is the size of the shell and the ability to pack ammunition. Traditionally, in the Luftwaffe, USAAF, and RAF the Cannon starts at 15mm or 20mm and up (with potential for explosive charges) while the machine gun is of 13mm or lower in size.

Also, my point about fire times is also a key indicator. The Spitfire IXc has 120 rpg and I think the recorded fire time for 120 rounds is 12 seconds. In game it corresponds to the same number...I checked. Furthermore, the user STAT system actually tells you the details of how many shots you've made so far. Go ahead and test it...if its a Spit IXc and you fire only the cannons then you should expend 240 rounds (120 per gun). I'll go test for fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

btw, has the XIe still 140 shells in its Hispanos ? im to lazy to test http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LStarosta
01-10-2005, 08:12 PM
Mk V had 60RPG for the Hispano while the MkIX had 120RPG.

JG53Frankyboy
01-10-2005, 08:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
Mk V had 60RPG for the Hispano while the MkIX had 120RPG. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, in game (3.03)
Vb has 60rpg
IXc 120rpg
IXe 140rpg !

SeminoleX
01-10-2005, 10:51 PM
The Japanese Cannon type 99 had a loadout of 100 rounds per gun.

The rate of fire was 590 per minute or 9.8 rounds per second.

Simple math reveals that a Zero pilot would have had 10.2 seconds of total firing time for the cannon weapons.

In the Il2 Zero you do not have 10.2 seconds of firing time. Measured with a stop watch you would do well to see 4-5 seconds of firing time.... Pure and simple....this comes out to an incredible rate of fire of 1200-1500 rounds per minute for the Il2 Zero fighter's cannon.

The only conclusion possible is that the rate of fire is set too high for cannons.

Calculations for other cannon equiped planes give similar results.


I'm really sorry if my observations have aroused petulant behavior but that's really their problem and none of my own. One really needs a measure of maturity and judgement to face the truth sometimes.

FatBoyHK
01-11-2005, 12:28 AM
haha SeminoleX, why don't you try WUAF_Badsight's method first, before jumping into conclusion?

pourshot
01-11-2005, 01:52 AM
What model zero are you testing by the way, if memory serves me well the early ones had a very short cannon clip.

edit; I just did a very quick test with the M3 zero and get around 11-12 seconds of cannon fire.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In the Il2 Zero you do not have 10.2 seconds of firing time. Measured with a stop watch you would do well to see 4-5 seconds of firing time.... Pure and simple....this comes out to an incredible rate of fire of 1200-1500 rounds per minute for the Il2 Zero fighter's cannon.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Blackdog5555
01-11-2005, 04:27 AM
It would help if you guys did a little proper research before you post. Don't like to sound like a know it all but the facts are readily avialable.
1. the A6M2 had 60 rounds per gun
2. the A6m5 had 120 rounds per gun

I tested both planes with Lorus digital stopwatch
the type 99 cannon fires about 520 RPM
1. the A6m2 fired for about 7.2 sec @540 min.
2. the A6m5 fired its 20s for about 12.2 sec. just about right
The 20s arent perfect but they are dam close.



didnt test the other models so please test them yourselves. But you cant go by sound or casings..jeesh this isnt real life. your listening to a wave file and looking at pretend 3d casings.

and again Badsight you posted without any data. just wind...

WUAF_Badsight
01-11-2005, 04:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
.... bla bla bla ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
oh jeez , what was the "data" that i was supposed to have supplied ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

i gave him the console command that would enable him to verify his own test

to tell you the truth Blackdog5555 , your a bit of a w@nker , have i offended your sence of self-importance sometime in the past or something ?

JG53Frankyboy
01-11-2005, 04:56 AM
actually
A6M2-11 & A6M2-21 & A6M2-N had 60rpg in 20mmCanons

A6M3-32 & A6M3-22 & A6M5 had 100rpg

A6M5a till A6M7-63 had 125rpg

so it is in game 3.03

and btw, i forgott to mention, Typ 99 canon of the Reisen familie isnt always the same !

A6M2(all) & A6M3-32 & A6M3-22
had Typ99 Model 1 , ~ 520 rounds per minute

A6M3-22a & A6M5
had Typ99 Model 2 Mark 3 , ~490 rounds per minute

A6M5a till A6M7-63
had Typ99 Model2 Mark 4 , ~500 rounds per minute

VW-IceFire
01-11-2005, 08:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
It would help if you guys did a little proper research before you post. Don't like to sound like a know it all but the facts are readily avialable.
1. the A6M2 had 60 rounds per gun
2. the A6m5 had 120 rounds per gun

I tested both planes with Lorus digital stopwatch
the type 99 cannon fires about 520 RPM
1. the A6m2 fired for about 7.2 sec @540 min.
2. the A6m5 fired its 20s for about 12.2 sec. just about right
The 20s arent perfect but they are dam close.



didnt test the other models so please test them yourselves. But you cant go by sound or casings..jeesh this isnt real life. your listening to a wave file and looking at pretend 3d casings.

and again Badsight you posted without any data. just wind... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-fi.html

According to this link, that duration of fire time is bloody close. I think this is a case open and close in one shot but I'd love to hear counter arguments if they actually had anything. So far we have "they look too fast".

I was having a bit of trouble with counting the shells today. It used to record them with user stat but I can't seem to get it to do that. Does it happen only online these days?

JG53Frankyboy
01-11-2005, 08:37 AM
only on a dogfight map , online ore offline.