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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 03:32 PM
I usually host IL2 servers. Realistic. Yesterday, I was flying my favorite mount the 109G6 AS. I dove from 5000m on a lagg5Fn. At about 700kph, I passed him in the opposite direction. I go into a shallow climb and he reversed and GAINS on me!!! After a few minutes my engine is overheating and he is almost within firing range!!!!! How is this possible?? Offline the Lagg 5fn is no problem, I can kill even the ACE setting, Am I doing something wrong? I hope in FB this is fixed with the patch. Im sick of these overmodelled russian wonder wagons!

Opinions, comments

thanks

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 03:32 PM
I usually host IL2 servers. Realistic. Yesterday, I was flying my favorite mount the 109G6 AS. I dove from 5000m on a lagg5Fn. At about 700kph, I passed him in the opposite direction. I go into a shallow climb and he reversed and GAINS on me!!! After a few minutes my engine is overheating and he is almost within firing range!!!!! How is this possible?? Offline the Lagg 5fn is no problem, I can kill even the ACE setting, Am I doing something wrong? I hope in FB this is fixed with the patch. Im sick of these overmodelled russian wonder wagons!

Opinions, comments

thanks

http://utenti.lycos.it/AEREOFAN/images/saetta.jpg

caccia buon!

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 03:42 PM
High alt modelling doesn`t exist.Even La is inferior at 5000m..However you say you dove on him so it would be 2000-3000m.

First of all there are many more factors which you didn`t mention.A track would be a proper explanation.


You flew G6AS,not G6`43 so I guess you must have done something wrong.


But I can assure you,planes don`t loose energy like they should(too slow).This is mostly visible in VVS cuz they`re turning most of the time.

In FB,you shouldn`t be surprised to see VVS pulling a horizontal loop and then gain on you.

"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 03:46 PM
carguy, i flew a G6AS. I don't see how he could have gained on me. He has to lose energy too!!?? I had kinetic and potential energy in this encounter. Physics says I should have left him in the dust!!!!!

Every aircraft has advantages and disadvantages. With VVS, I don't see and disadvantages in late aircraft. They turn better, climb like rockets dont' overheat. They were not that great in real life.

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 03:50 PM
few possibilities...
1. MW50 enebled?
2. Engine cooled before attacking? > attack with closed radiators!!!... with open rads- the AS loosing a lot of performance
with closed radiators you will outclimb him- with open rads.. byebye /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 03:55 PM
Abbuzze wrote:
- few possibilities...
- 1. MW50 enebled?
- 2. Engine cooled before attacking? > attack with
- closed radiators!!!... with open rads- the AS
- loosing a lot of performance
- with closed radiators you will outclimb him- with
- open rads.. byebye /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Playing IL2. No, had open radiators ( do it first thing on the ground) Had wep enabled in the dive and in the shallow climb.


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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 06:11 PM
How fast was the La @ the merge? Were you packing the nose cannon? It's most likely the La driver did a slanted half loop just before the merge. So that just after the merge he was behind and above you facing the same direction. He subsequently dove to regain what little speed he lost in the maneuver and chased. You can't outrun a La in a 109 G/AS unless you're above 3000m. The website lists the La as being three km/hr faster @ sea level. While this would seem to make little difference, the figure assumes you're using WEP. The difference is that that he will run WEP far longer than you can.

The energy tactics just don't work w/ the La (I'm speaking of IL2, we'll see how FB turns out after next week). He will match your climb, out speed and maneuver you. Even starting w/ a significant alt advantage he can eat you up. I've only been able to beet the La's in two ways. One is to drag them above 4000m (this is difficult and only marginally effective). Two, simply out fly him using close, slow, and horizontal scissors. An oft overlooked asset of the 109 is its excellent low speed maneuverability. If you can force an overshot you can win. The only catch is to win in a 109 vs. La you have to be a better pilot; all the AC advantages are his.




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"Altitude, speed, maneuver, fire!"-The "formula of Terror" of Aleksandr Pokryshkin, Three times awarded the rank of Hero of the Soviet Union

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 06:22 PM
all complaining about russian vs. german a/c performance aside (I mean seriously, things are as they are...you gotta work within the existing set of flight models...)

some things to consider:

A. what was his initial energy state? being a BnZer myself I know its really tough to gauge this from altitude. unless you're watching your target for a couple minutes, its hard to judge his energy state, and even then, you're still guessing...

B. how "shallow" was your climb? Im not saying he didn't have to climb too, to catch up with you.....just that sometimes its a better bet to extend for a several km, keeping an eye on your target in the rearview. if you're leaving him in the dust, then start your climb.

C. you dived from 5km...so, what altitude did the engagement and subsequent chase take place? if you lost 4km diving, and hit him at 1000m then you're down low on his "home turf" and trying to zoom up and away just doenst always work out. a 5FN will catch an A/S down low. diving/climbing isn't always an efficient way to convert energy, especially so when it comes to huge dives....law of diminishing returns sort of thing.

D. fuel states (maybe the guy was running on fumes...and you had 50% fuel...)

again, Im not saying anything about the accuracy of flight models, climb rates, energy bleed, acceleration, etc.....the game is as it is. Im just trying to find an explaination/solution within the constraints of the game, so next time you can blow his red star a$$ out of the sky, or extend away to safely make attempt #2.....


=)


mike_espo wrote:
- I usually host IL2 servers. Realistic. Yesterday, I
- was flying my favorite mount the 109G6 AS. I dove
- from 5000m on a lagg5Fn. At about 700kph, I passed
- him in the opposite direction. I go into a shallow
- climb and he reversed and GAINS on me!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 06:35 PM
I have also noticed this...as have many others. Hopefully the new flight models will stop this kind of thing. I have often been caught when doing BZ with a 109 of any type by a VVS of many types. And with my altitude and speed advantage this never would have happened in the real world. I'm not the best pilot in the world but getting shot down when your tactics are good keeps me away from usually flying German planes.

"Nothing difficult is ever easy"

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 06:43 PM
One answer..spiral climb...and they stall. Don`t matter where...IL2 or FB

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 06:47 PM
Thanks guys. Real good replys. I guess I let my anger get the best of me. This really is a great sim and I love it! I guess I just want the aircraft to perform like I read about. If we can't BZ vs late VVS, then were sunk!!

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 06:47 PM
mike_espo wrote:
- carguy, i flew a G6AS. I don't see how he could have
- gained on me. He has to lose energy too!!?? I had
- kinetic and potential energy in this encounter.
- Physics says I should have left him in the dust!!!!!
-
- Every aircraft has advantages and disadvantages.
- With VVS, I don't see and disadvantages in late
- aircraft. They turn better, climb like rockets dont'
- overheat. They were not that great in real life.
-
I feal your Pain !!!

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 06:57 PM
Ughhhhh, it's even worse offline... I was horsing around last night, practicing my B&Z, so I took an F4 against first 2 veteran I-153s then 2 I-16s...

Let me tell you, it's like those guys have EWR or eyes in the back of their heads, cuz every time I was getting close to opening up... barrell roll, every single time.... after a while it got really annoying.. still took'em down, but after using all my ammo, and boy was I *&&#^$*#^! off!

I don't why, but it seems only the Is do this thing, I kept playing QMB for the past week and I haven't encountered this problem so bad w/ any other VVS aircraft.

Guhh... I hope the patch will fix some of this stuff.


Sorry, just felt like ranting /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 07:02 PM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- One answer..spiral climb...and they stall. Don`t
- matter where...IL2 or FB

Excellent point Ivan! I love looking back on enemies as they fall behind. The only catch is you have to time it just right or you'll leave yourself vulnerable. I've yet to master this technique yet, but am learning.



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"Altitude, speed, maneuver, fire!"-The "formula of Terror" of Aleksandr Pokryshkin, Three times awarded the rank of Hero of the Soviet Union

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 07:04 PM
cuski wrote:
- Ughhhhh, it's even worse offline... I was horsing
- around last night, practicing my B&Z, so I took an
- F4 against first 2 veteran I-153s then 2 I-16s...
-
- Let me tell you, it's like those guys have EWR or
- eyes in the back of their heads, cuz every time I
- was getting close to opening up... barrell roll,
- every single time.... after a while it got really
- annoying.. still took'em down, but after using all
- my ammo, and boy was I *&&#^$*#^! off!
-
- I don't why, but it seems only the Is do this thing,
- I kept playing QMB for the past week and I haven't
- encountered this problem so bad w/ any other VVS
- aircraft.
-
- Guhh... I hope the patch will fix some of this
- stuff.

Wow!! I totally agree. I flew vs I-153s and could not get the thing in my sights. I had two veteran f-4s vs 1 reg and 2 rookie I-153s and I lost my wingman and I got killed from 350meters with my wing shot off!!!! Un F &^%$ believable!!!

Its funny. the other vvs aircraft I can handle. Wonders why the russkies got rid of these little devils!

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 07:07 PM
Spiral climb isn`t an emergency maneuver.You have to get away to make some distance and you can`t do it once the bogie will be close.He`ll stay there,making sc closer than 1000m is a sueside.

"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 07:15 PM
Nobody said it was carguy. In his situation where he initially had distance and then it faded away... spiral climb would be the way to go. Spiral climb is a number one manuever that should be mastered by any 109 jocks.. just like low level split-S. Late 109`s are still better on vertical then LA5FN. By the way, IMO back in IL2 days, LA5FN wasn`t that of a big deal for G6/AS...Yak3 was the troublemaker /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
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"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 09:09 PM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- (.....) Spiral climb is
- a number one manuever that should be mastered by any
- 109 jocks.. just like low level split-S. .......

i enjoy flying the 109s on occasion too (i don't really have one a/c or side that i always fly...i like em all!) and i have found that a spiral climb is a great way to use their great climb rate to advantage. i can't always get the tactic to work though. do you tend to try and maximize rate of climb when performing a s/c, or do you focus on airspeed, or maintain a certain turning radius? what's the "optimum" setup"? i usually attempt to maintain a fixed rate of climb, and let the airspeed and radius of turn settle where they might, but i often find that my radius of turn is not quite optimal (ie. its too tight, and my climb performance falls off, or its too big a turn, and i end up in a turning fight instead of a s/c). i tend to fly the F4, G2, or G6A/S.
also, whats the best way to break off of your s/c and extend again? i generally just continue the climb until A. the russian plane stalls out in his attempt to match my climb (rookie opponent) or B. reaching 3-4km where things even out a bit, or at least I can try and dive away to extend, and see if he follows....

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 09:30 PM
whitechapel wrote:
- crazyivan1970 wrote:
-- (.....) Spiral climb is
-- a number one manuever that should be mastered by any
-- 109 jocks.. just like low level split-S. .......
-
- i enjoy flying the 109s on occasion too (i don't
- really have one a/c or side that i always fly...i
- like em all!) and i have found that a spiral climb
- is a great way to use their great climb rate to
- advantage. i can't always get the tactic to work
- though. do you tend to try and maximize rate of
- climb when performing a s/c, or do you focus on
- airspeed, or maintain a certain turning radius?
- what's the "optimum" setup"? i usually attempt to
- maintain a fixed rate of climb, and let the airspeed
- and radius of turn settle where they might, but i
- often find that my radius of turn is not quite
- optimal (ie. its too tight, and my climb performance
- falls off, or its too big a turn, and i end up in a
- turning fight instead of a s/c). i tend to fly the
- F4, G2, or G6A/S.
- also, whats the best way to break off of your s/c
- and extend again? i generally just continue the
- climb until A. the russian plane stalls out in his
- attempt to match my climb (rookie opponent) or B.
- reaching 3-4km where things even out a bit, or at
- least I can try and dive away to extend, and see if
- he follows....
-

First off, let me start with the fact that spiral clmib allows you to see your opponent all the time on FR servers, and vision of your enemy is already half of success. The optimal speed of s/c (at least for me) is about 270-290 km/h and they way i usually build it...is starting at high speed wide radius making it tighter and tighter...loosing speed to 300 give or take.. and turn it into sustained/fixed spiral climb...but here`s the trick...the whole point of this is to see the moment where your opponent stalls or (if he`s a good pilot) levels out...and at this point you strike... Sure you can extend and gain even greater distance...but that is not the purpose of s/c IMO. The biggest thing in my opinion is to figure out how fast your opponent going before you perform such a manuever and what kind of plane he`s flying...but once you get use to it...it will save you almost every time.
I am not the greatest 109 jock...but i aint going down easy either /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
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"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 10:03 PM
good point, and good aggressive thinking. i agree that if i pull up into a s/c and a rookie pilot stalls, i would hop on him. but a veteran pilot who levels out, well, personally im more likely to continue my "escape" and wait for another opportunity for a high energy attack. im not a great offensive pilot in a turning fight, which most likely I would just get sucked in to in the latter scenario.
i do agree with you about visual contact and having a good idea of your opponents energy and attitude being (more than?) half the battle on FR servers.
that's why they're so fun. =) aircombat is a chess game, when it comes right down to it. set-up and opportunity are where fights tend to be lost and won. at least for me. if i find myself down low and turning with an enemy a/c my only thought is to maneuver so he loses sight of me long enough for me to escape, and live to fight another day. or at least, a bit later that same day. =)

crazyivan1970 wrote:
- First off, let me start with the fact that spiral
- clmib allows you to see your opponent all the time
- on FR servers, and vision of your enemy is already
- half of success. The optimal speed of s/c (at least
- for me) is about 270-290 km/h and they way i usually
- build it...is starting at high speed wide radius
- making it tighter and tighter...loosing speed to 300
- give or take.. and turn it into sustained/fixed
- spiral climb...but here`s the trick...the whole
- point of this is to see the moment where your
- opponent stalls or (if he`s a good pilot) levels
- out...and at this point you strike... Sure you can
- extend and gain even greater distance...but that is
- not the purpose of s/c IMO. The biggest thing in my
- opinion is to figure out how fast your opponent
- going before you perform such a manuever and what
- kind of plane he`s flying...but once you get use to
- it...it will save you almost every time.
- I am not the greatest 109 jock...but i aint going
- down easy either

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 10:13 PM
whitechapel wrote:
- good point, and good aggressive thinking. i agree
- that if i pull up into a s/c and a rookie pilot
- stalls, i would hop on him. but a veteran pilot who
- levels out, well, personally im more likely to
- continue my "escape" and wait for another
- opportunity for a high energy attack. im not a great
- offensive pilot in a turning fight, which most
- likely I would just get sucked in to in the latter
- scenario.

You will always have more energy then opponent below you, strike away, before his teamates will show up /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
The scenario is pretty simple...you climb...you watch your opponent stall or level out...strike again..climb again. In the real life all this would be different...but here, in the virtual world target fixation is the biggest enemy. Even fantastic pilots are getting annoied with non-stop yo-yo and lose it...B&Z is a game of patience and ....shall i say cold mind(that`s how it would translate from russian /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif )?

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 10:14 PM
No dont do a spiral climp u die.

if u turn u just make it easyer for the plane behind u to come closer and closer.

and the hope that the VVS planes get fixed in 1.1
better you forget taht they even will get stronger.

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 10:21 PM
You`ve got a point there,pigpig/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 10:21 PM
pipgig wrote:
- No dont do a spiral climp u die.
-
- if u turn u just make it easyer for the plane behind
- u to come closer and closer.
-
- and the hope that the VVS planes get fixed in 1.1
- better you forget taht they even will get stronger.
-
-
-
-

Sometimes i am not sure...if people are being serious or jocking /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 10:35 PM
i m not joking.

maybe u fly the K4 in 1.0 with manuel prop and 104%

but if the 1.1 will be like 0.8 (and it looks so) you better forget spiral climps.
all german planes will fly like crap.

(No Jokes)

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 10:52 PM
pipgig wrote:
- i m not joking.
-
- maybe u fly the K4 in 1.0 with manuel prop and 104%
-
- but if the 1.1 will be like 0.8 (and it looks so)
- you better forget spiral climps.
- all german planes will fly like crap.
-
- (No Jokes)


I hope you'll excuse me if I won't take your word for it. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 10:56 PM
Yeah i fly K4 in 1.0 and also i flew K4 in beta8 and didn`t notice that much of the difference. No, i don`t fly on manual prop pitch. And besides that, i flew 109`s since IL2 demo and spiral climb worked thru a good and bad times. So whatcha saying? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Carguy...if you are really 109 jock and agreeing with pigpig... just doesn`t make sence... How do you deal with Yak/LA/Hurry/P-39....etc? I am all ears now.

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 11:02 PM
sure!

its just my opinion i was flying 0.8 was u ?

i fly german planes only.

i know how to use energy i also know how to make a spiral climp.

i know the performance of the german planes well to can see taht the german planes got worser.

u dont have to belive me just take me seriouse ok.

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 11:10 PM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- Carguy...if you are really 109 jock and agreeing
- with pigpig... just doesn`t make sence... How do you
- deal with Yak/LA/Hurry/P-39....etc? I am all ears
- now.


I have serious problems with judging my opponent`s energy state.Everytime I do sc I look back and see hem right on my tail even after a long time.When viewing tracks I see him fall behind gradually.That`s why sc never worked for me.B&Z makes me sure I have a big E advantage.

I`ll never become an ace but it`s at least safe.


BTW pigpig makes me laugh cuz he`s one o the most LW biased guys I`ve "seen"/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 11:12 PM
pipgig wrote:
- sure!
-
- its just my opinion i was flying 0.8 was u ?
-

I just said before that i flew all late 109`s in beta8 and didn`t notice much of the difference. The reason is simple...i always used 110% throttle and didn`t get use to the 105% bug.

- i fly german planes only.
-
- i know how to use energy i also know how to make a
- spiral climp.
-
- i know the performance of the german planes well to
- can see taht the german planes got worser.
-

Good for you mate, i didn`t doubt your skills, i just disagreed with you on the concept...why are you getting upset? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- u dont have to belive me just take me seriouse ok.
-
-
-
-

I don`t believe you, because i have my own experiances and i am taking you seriously by disagreeing with you in respectful manner...am i not?

By there way, beta8 is not even close to what final release would be...from what i heard...so let`s see and wait.



Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 11:14 PM
carguy_ wrote:

- I have serious problems with judging my opponent`s
- energy state.Everytime I do sc I look back and see
- hem right on my tail even after a long time.When
- viewing tracks I see him fall behind
- gradually.That`s why sc never worked for me.B&Z
- makes me sure I have a big E advantage.
-
- I`ll never become an ace but it`s at least safe.
-
-
- BTW pigpig makes me laugh cuz he`s one o the most LW
- biased guys I`ve "seen"

I gotcha mate...let`s say it`s not your style then...hey everybody has his own ways /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

V!

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub