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Jwtp
10-01-2008, 09:33 PM
hello, i played IL2 when it first came out ago and i admit i've been living under a rock for the past few years regarding this game, but recently i have picked up a copy of 1946 and been playing it sp****ly whenever i'm free so please forgive me if i am asking a question that has been asked and answered many times before, the search function isn't working http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

anyway, regarding stalls and spins, why is it that whenever i try to make a turn, most of the aircraft (if not all) go into a spin and dig a big hole in the ground? i have been through the basic phase of military flying in my country's airforce and i have performed steep turns, loops and barrel rolls without going into a crazy uncontrollable spin, yet in this game when i bank and pull back on the stick i go all loopy, what am i doing wrong?

i found that by turning off stalls and spins, the handling is closer to that of real life (reminding everyone that i fly a single prop trainer, not a jet so its definitely nothing to do with torque and gyro issues). but of course i am not satisfied flying with that option turned off, just doesn't feel...satifying, you know? so can someone help me out? what's with the ease of going into a spin?

thank you all in advance! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WTE_Galway
10-01-2008, 09:52 PM
You are probably just not use to the sensitivity of a game joystick.

Remember that an inch or two stick movement on a game joystick probably equates to almost pulling the yoke back as far as your chest in a real cessna or piper http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You can either soften your joystick profile so its less sensitive or learn to be less aggressive on the stick.

Jwtp
10-01-2008, 09:57 PM
ok, maybe thats true, but how the heck do you do a steep turn in IL2 without spinning like a top? i tried flying in a mission with no AI around, and just did some basic turns and i find the plane keeps trying to turn in the opposite direction, and if i keep the stick back it goes into a spin rightaway...thats not real? i've did that in flight training and i managed 45 or even 60 deg AoB steep turns...with the stick pretty far back too..when i fly in IL2 it feels like i'm trying to balance on a tightrope..well..maybe i'm yanking too hard on the stick then.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

ImMoreBetter
10-01-2008, 10:40 PM
I think you're being too ham-fisted.

Be gentle, pull back very slowly until you get a feel for it..

Also watch your speed, you don't have much time if you are anywhere below 300kph (and not always much even then).

Freiwillige
10-01-2008, 10:41 PM
Thats called exceeding the angle of attack. Basically you need to pull back until the aircraft starts shaking a bit and you will be in your tightest turn for that speed, anything beyond that will exceed the angle of attack a wing needs for proper airflow and lift resulting in a stalled wing followed by engine torqe or the lift of the other wing throwing you into a uncontrollable roll/stall situation.

It is quite realistic and is known officialy as a high speed stall or exceeding the angle of lift. Google it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WTE_Galway
10-01-2008, 11:11 PM
Soften your profile.

Now personally I prefer everything closer to 100 (I use a MSFFB2 and the force feedback helps a lot with flying on the edge of incipient stall ).

However the profile of choice on the forums for a long while was what is known as "Oleg's Profile" as it was apparently the stick profile used by the man himself back when he actually could fly online with the rest of us without being abused by 16 year olds http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


[rts_joystick]
elevator=0 1 4 8 15 24 33 44 60 77 100 0
rudder=0 0 10 19 32 43 54 63 74 86 100 0
aileron=0 1 3 6 12 21 32 44 61 81 100 0

May people swear by this profile.

Notice that almost nothing happens towards the centre "softening" the stick response.

Buzzsaw-
10-02-2008, 12:33 AM
Salute Jwtp

I just replied to another query regarding stalls not too long ago, so here it is again. I am going to have to disagree with WTE Galway and Oleg's profile, I used to use a profile exactly like that, but after much examination and experimentation, discovered Oleg's profile results in a situation where you move your stick a lot for almost no virtual result, then about halfway through the travel small amounts of stick movement suddenly have a big virtual effect. Such a profile amplifies the potential of a stall. It took a while for me to get my head around the facts, but I am convinced, (and many others too) that the best way to create a profile is not to follow Oleg's suggestion.

If you consider the reality of virtual air combat, most stalls happen when the stick is about halfway through its travel. Ie. you are in a turn, pulling back on the stick, you try to add just a little more elevator, and the plane stalls.

The best scaling for a stick is one which modulates the jumps in the virtual input at that critical middle section of the stick.

It's all about transitions, if you do not have smooth transitions between each step in the 10 programmable units in the scaling of input for the elevator, you will have a tendency to stall more easily. The same applies to Rudder and Aileron, although poorly setup scaling for these last two cause less problems re. stalls.

If you doubt me, take at careful look at the movement of the joystick as shown in the game's input section, ie. the twin axis setup, where two marker squares move along the axis of the joysticks movement. The red square follows exactly the physical movement of your joystick, the green square is the virtual movement you are inputting to your aircraft's controls. Compare Oleg's ideal profile, with the one I list below in my suggested profile, and notice how smoothly one moves compared to the other. Olegs profile has the green box jumping quickly in the middle range, making those fine adjustments when you are on the edge of the stall very difficult to input.

Here is an excerpt from the RAF74 Pilot's guide, showing how to setup INPUT for your joystick:

>>>

Pilot Handbook Part 1 (continued)

>>>

2) Scaling the Joystick


A Joystick must now be set up so that the Elevator, Aileron and Rudder are easily and smoothly controlled by the pilot. Incorrectly setup Elevators, Ailerons and Rudder will cause the pilot to stall his aircraft more often and also to maneuver less efficiently.

A Pilot scales his Joystick by using the INPUT interface. Access the INPUT interface by selecting HARDWARE SETUP from the main menu and then INPUT.

You will see on the upper left a box which allows you to select one of three Axes: Pitch (Elevator), Roll (Ailerons) and Yaw (Rudder). Each selection then can program a ten step scale of input degree for each of the three potential Axes. Step 1 must be at least 1, and Step 10 can be a maximum of 100.

The idea for the scale is that a Pilot will want to have a slightly finer set of inputs available to him when he is using the initial few centimeters of movement of the joystick, but at the same time, a set of smooth, non-abrupt transitions in the middle range, where stalling typically happens. This is to allow him to make fine adjustments to allow for accurate gunnery, with larger, but smooth adjustments to input in the middle and upper range.

Normally a pilot will program, by entering a number between 1 and 100 for each of the ten steps, a rising scale, that takes the form of an initially gentler slope, slightly steepening as it approaches 100.

Each pilot will have to determine what best suits him, but as an example of what I program here are my 10 steps for each of Pitch, Roll and Yaw.

50-55-60-70-82-88-90-95-100-100

What this level of scaling means, is that when I have moved the joystick the physical equivalent of 7 of the ten steps, or 70% of the movement distance available to the Joystick, I am inputting electronically just slightly over 63% of the virtual control. At the low end of the scale, I am inputting less electronically with a greater amount of joystick movement. With movement equivalent to 3 of the ten steps, or 30%, I have inputted only 18% of the virtual control. At the 10% step, I am inputting 5% of the virtual control. At 9 of ten steps, I am inputting 90% of the virtual control. The whole key to setting the input is to make the transitions between the steps as smooth as possible, otherwise you will not be able to fly the aircraft as accurately as you wish.

There are also scalable settings availabe for FILTERING and DEADBAND. Filtering is used when a Joystick is slightly prone to spiking, and can moderate such wild inputs. For those with a good joystick, this is unnessesary. Deadband creates a dead area around the center of the joysticks physical movements and thus prevents small, involuntary movements of the pilot's hand from affecting the plane's control surfaces. I prefer to set both to zero, but many like to have a deadband of 5 or 10. However, when you allocate a percentage to deadband, you are actually reducing the amount of physical movement of your joystick, which is actually dedicated to control. Therefore the whole scale becomes less fine, and less movement of your hand results in more movement in the virtual aircraft.

<<<

Some other suggestions:

It takes a while for an aircraft to get settled into a turn, a pilot has to have the patience to allow it to. I almost always used to find that I had to back off on the elevator input once I got into a turn, but now am disciplining myself to add just enough.

Putting aside elevator inputs, in many ways though, using just the ailerons and rudder to set the aircraft into a bank, thus initiating a turn is a better solution than over-using the elevator. Aileron turns use the natural lift of the aircraft's wings without the extra drag of the elevator, thus speed stays high. So you set the aircraft into the turn with ailerons and rudder, and only then do you think about adding any elevator. In some cases, you may find you don't need any.

RAF74 has a number of elements in our training program which can help less experienced pilots move more quickly into flying and fighting more effectively.

RAF74 homepage is here:

http://www.raf74.com/

Fehler
10-02-2008, 01:58 AM
That's an interesting setup Buzz..

I am going to try it out tomorrow.

Mine is similar to Oleg's but with a higher start number of 20. I don't have it here or I would post the numbers, but the point I am trying to make is that I don't get to the 100 range until the last (10) step. From 20 to 100 it is as linear as I could make it.

A squad mate of mine sets everything to 100. I don't know how he can fly it like that, but he does, and he likes it over the "Oleg" method.

Different strokes I suppose...

I will let you know how I do with your setup...

M_Gunz
10-02-2008, 02:43 AM
If you keep the ball centered, you won't spin.
If you don't pull too much stick for the IAS you're flying, you can keep the ball centered.

It's that simple.

ADD:
Hey, you think different then let's see a track of how easy it is to spin when flying RIGHT.

lesterhawksby
10-02-2008, 03:39 AM
I think it's a lot harder to get this right in the sim than real life. In real life you have a longer and hence less sensitive stick, real rudder pedals, stick forces, and gut feeling. None of these are present in game so it's really easy to go way past the point you'd dare to in a real plane. Watching your tracks from external view will probably confirm this! The sim's lack of non-visual cues and depth perception also seems to cause impatience - I've lost count of the number of times I've felt like it's taking me a century to pull a tight 90, then timed myself and realised that I've never done anything like that in real air :-)

You don't say whether you have a twisty stick or rudder pedals. If the former, it's quite difficult to pull off perfect coordination. Real pilots don't have twisties for good reasons! Fly more conservatively until you get more used to it.

STENKA_69.GIAP
10-02-2008, 10:10 AM
The joysticks and pedals we use in a sim are far lighter than in a modern light aircraft. You don't get the air resistance firming up the controls, you don't get gravity trying to squeeze your guts through the stitching in the seat as you pull back on the stick.

So imagine you have been turned into the Hulk, given a general anasthetic and then been told to fly a plane. That's IL2.

Also aircraft design has moved 60 years on. I was trying to stall a plane the other day. I felt a slight wobble, controls lightened up and it just dropped it's nose. End of story.

I suspect some of the WWII planes were very capable of biting back if not treated with respect.

Buzzsaw-
10-02-2008, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Fehler:
A squad mate of mine sets everything to 100. I don't know how he can fly it like that

Your friend's joystick is setup to send input to the virtual aircraft in a 1-1 ratio to his hand movements. Ie. virtual input corresponds EXACTLY to physical movement. Ie. if your friend moves his joystick .25 of an inch, the IL-2 program will read it as moving .25 of an inch.

That means there is no curve to his input line, its a straight line from zero to 100. The disadvantage is that for very fine adjustments just off the horizon, such as coming in for a landing, or lining up a shot from directly behind an opponent, he will have to depend more on the steadiness of his hand and his ability to move it precisely over small distances.

On the other hand, the advantages of such a setup are that the inputs in the center of joystick movement, where stalls typically happen, will also correlate exactly to his hand movements, so he will actually have to be less precise with his hand movements at that point than a joystick which is setup with a curving input line.

A curving input line results in MORE virtual input in the central area of joystick motion, than actual physical motion. For example, in an imagined curving input line, for the midrange of joystick motion, if you move your hand .25 inch, the IL-2 program would read it the same as if you had moved it .35 inch. Hence in a curving input line, the physical adjustments you make in the center range of joystick motion result in abrupter, less fine virtual adjustments.

M_Gunz
10-02-2008, 03:36 PM
On the other hand, the advantages of such a setup are that the inputs in the center of joystick movement, where stalls typically happen,

People don't usually stall with the stick pulled back, you say?

Really Buzz....

Urufu_Shinjiro
10-02-2008, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
On the other hand, the advantages of such a setup are that the inputs in the center of joystick movement, where stalls typically happen,

People don't usually stall with the stick pulled back, you say?

Really Buzz....

He meant in the center of the radius, not the centered position.

crucislancer
10-02-2008, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fehler:
A squad mate of mine sets everything to 100. I don't know how he can fly it like that

Your friend's joystick is setup to send input to the virtual aircraft in a 1-1 ratio to his hand movements. Ie. virtual input corresponds EXACTLY to physical movement. Ie. if your friend moves his joystick .25 of an inch, the IL-2 program will read it as moving .25 of an inch.

That means there is no curve to his input line, its a straight line from zero to 100. The disadvantage is that for very fine adjustments just off the horizon, such as coming in for a landing, or lining up a shot from directly behind an opponent, he will have to depend more on the steadiness of his hand and his ability to move it precisely over small distances.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have mine set up for 100 all the way across as well, but that works the best for my stick (Saitek X52) then my previous stick, a Logitech Wingman. The Saitek has a very light feel from center to fully deflected, so it's much easier to be precise. But, I tend to make minor corrections with trim when I need absolute precision.

Urufu_Shinjiro
10-02-2008, 04:11 PM
Another thing that contributes to all 100 being effective on the X52 is it has a much longer throw (the distance between center and edge) than most joysticks.

M_Gunz
10-02-2008, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
On the other hand, the advantages of such a setup are that the inputs in the center of joystick movement, where stalls typically happen,

People don't usually stall with the stick pulled back, you say?

Really Buzz....

He meant in the center of the radius, not the centered position. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joystick halfway back? That I can agree with.

WTE_Galway
10-02-2008, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
Another thing that contributes to all 100 being effective on the X52 is it has a much longer throw (the distance between center and edge) than most joysticks.

Yeah my understanding is 100 all the way across works well for long throw sticks especially the custom ones in homebuilt pits and is also the way to go with a flight yoke.

Lemky
10-03-2008, 03:32 PM
..maybe i'm yanking too hard on the stick then.. Yup you is.What you lack in this game is the lack of flying by the seat of your pants,one's butt can give alot of info,like G force,like skiding or sliding

M_Gunz
10-03-2008, 05:31 PM
If you only pull stick and continue pulling -as- the nose comes around faster and then let up
-when- the nose stop coming around faster or even slows down (plane speed drops about then)
then you won't go into stall (maybe just ride the edge).

M2morris
10-04-2008, 01:59 AM
This might be over-kill because you probly found this out already anyway, but heres a picture of the pitch control adjustment thing.
From the opening, go to Hardware, then hit Input, and it will put you here where you can fine-tune your elevator to however you like.
BTW, I dont know what the hell dead band or filtering is; maybe someone else can snswere that.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/planegeek/grab0001-5.jpg

BashChelik
10-04-2008, 04:53 AM
Dead band = the area around the stick center position that will not convey any stick movement to the sim, as in the larger it is the more you can move your stick without effecting the elevator and the ailerons.

Filtering = if a stick has spikes in its signal (you move it to a position other then central and the red square doesn't stay in one place but dances around) turning up this option will make the signal smoother

Regarding the original topic, I don't think there's a universal stick sensitivity curve that will fit all the different models of joysticks and humans out there. From personal experience I can tell that for two different types of joystick two different sensitivity curves are needed.

It would be good for the original poster to go through a process of repeatedly adjusting the stick curve and flying a plane until he finds the setting that feels best and gives him the most precision for a given plane, as this will take less time than relearning stick movements for an existing curve setting. A set of rudder pedals would also be a bonus as I'm ready to bet that most of the birds modelled in our game have heaps more of torque moment (and thanks to that gyroscopic moment while turning) to counter than the birds which are used for training purposes...

M_Gunz
10-04-2008, 07:58 AM
A good chunk of Filter will smooth out all stick/muscle movements.