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Kettenhunde
05-24-2009, 03:57 AM
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/449/spitfirepilotletters1.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spitfirepilotletters1.jpg)

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/8628/spitfirepilotletters2.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spitfirepilotletters2.jpg)


All the best,

Crumpp

Kettenhunde
05-24-2009, 03:57 AM
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/449/spitfirepilotletters1.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spitfirepilotletters1.jpg)

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/8628/spitfirepilotletters2.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spitfirepilotletters2.jpg)


All the best,

Crumpp

Kurfurst__
05-24-2009, 04:34 AM
Very enjoyable read, thank you for sharing it. Its especially revealing how surprisingly men at the lower ranks were aware of the upcoming conflict in May 1939, or the problems with attacking and flying three plane Vee formations, as per the RAF's interwar doctrine.

rnzoli
05-24-2009, 05:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">letters that might have been </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So these are not real letters? Only some kind of "re-enactment"?

JtD
05-24-2009, 06:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">letters that might have been </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So these are not real letters? Only some kind of "re-enactment"? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, and not a very good one if you ask me.

Thanks for posting nonetheless.

mhuxt
05-24-2009, 07:08 AM
Needs more cowbell.

Kettenhunde
05-24-2009, 07:24 AM
It is written by Jeff Ethell thru EAA Warbirds.

Just trying to be nice and give you guys some access to sources you might not have access too.

Some people need to learn some manners.

TS_Sancho
05-24-2009, 10:51 AM
Thank you for sharing, I thouroughly enjoyed the fictional correspondance above and found it colorful and well researched from my lamans perspective.

Please keep content like this coming. I find your contributions to this forum educational and enlightening (although I do struggle following some of the math but thats the educational part).

Jaws2002
05-24-2009, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
Thank you for sharing, I thouroughly enjoyed the fictional correspondance above and found it colorful and well researched from my lamans perspective.

Please keep content like this coming. I find your contributions to this forum educational and enlightening (although I do struggle following some of the math but thats the educational part). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

K_Freddie
05-24-2009, 12:01 PM
When I started readin.. I thought that this cannot be the real stuff (read the other posts later) as this would have been a major security breach.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

F0_Dark_P
05-24-2009, 02:15 PM
Nice read non the less http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

rnzoli
05-24-2009, 02:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
Some people need to learn some manners. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know if you wanted to address that to me, but I really wasn't sure, so I had to ask. As other's said, it's an interesting perspective anyway, thank you.

Ba5tard5word
05-24-2009, 02:49 PM
I got a warning signal when I saw "appeasement." I'd be surprised if people saw it like that then before war had broken out, but then I wasn't there.

M_Gunz
05-24-2009, 04:21 PM
I think that word was used to criticise the inaction of governments towards Hitler's increasing buildup back then.
Not everyone was playing ostrich.

Kettenhunde
05-24-2009, 08:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I think that word was used to criticise the inaction of governments towards Hitler's increasing buildup back then.
Not everyone was playing ostrich.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you imagine seeing the storm clouds, knowing it would be you and your friends doing the dying, and still continuing on with the "flying club" mentality? Many individuals did see the storm and their preparations helped win the victory that followed.

I thought it was interesting too on the perspective of a pilot transitioning aircraft. I think the Spitfire pilot in the story has a wider mental gulf to cross in terms of accepting new technology than a modern fighter pilot transitioning to an F22 Raptor would today.

Drag has become more of an issue with designers. Consequently cockpits are getting smaller and gaining an enclosed canopy. We look at open cockpit fighters as archaic and forget that not being able to feel the relative wind and interact with the airplane was a real concern to pilots. That's why you see open cockpit aircraft and the ability to open the canopy in flight were still popular design traits with pilots well into WWII.

This is a pilot who is used to steel girders providing the strength of his airplane. Now we are asking him to rely on a thin softer alloy called duralumin and a construction technique without the girders. He airplane is a hollow tube and no longer the filled with comforting cross braces of steel tubing.


All the best,

Crumpp

Kettenhunde
05-24-2009, 08:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">it's an interesting perspective anyway, thank you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are welcome!

All the best,

Crumpp

M_Gunz
05-24-2009, 10:38 PM
It wasn't just the pilots, it was a lot of regular people. The Great War was not forgotten, including the way that
the war staff threw men at machineguns and cannon for little or no gain. Really the war might have been avoided by
a combined effort of France, Great Britain and Poland before 1938. The treaties Hitler violated would have been
cause enough. OTOH if France had not taken Alsace-Lorraine then Hitler might not have gained power in the first
place. Still, knowing the history and the Russian buildup I'd be wondering if a bigger war would not have started
in 1950 as per Stalin's plans.

Kettenhunde
05-24-2009, 11:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Really the war might have been avoided by a combined effort of France, Great Britain and Poland before 1938. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hindsight is 20/20 but even without that benefit; I agree that a policy of appeasement has never prevented war.

Wars occur only when one side thinks the other is weak and the world is not interested or has the power to prevent it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Still, knowing the history and the Russian buildup I'd be wondering if a bigger war would not have started in 1950 as per Stalin's plans.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many German veterans look upon their going to war with Russia as saving Western Europe from this outcome.

All the best,

Crumpp

WTE_Galway
05-24-2009, 11:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
It wasn't just the pilots, it was a lot of regular people. The Great War was not forgotten, including the way that
the war staff threw men at machineguns and cannon for little or no gain. Really the war might have been avoided by
a combined effort of France, Great Britain and Poland before 1938. The treaties Hitler violated would have been
cause enough. OTOH if France had not taken Alsace-Lorraine then Hitler might not have gained power in the first
place. Still, knowing the history and the Russian buildup I'd be wondering if a bigger war would not have started
in 1950 as per Stalin's plans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


European politics was rather messy at that stage.

Czechoslovakia probably could have stymied Hitler with the right support as early as the Munich Crisis - however aside from Britain and France doing the dirty on them, ironically Poland and Hungary probably would have supported Hitler in attacking the Czechs as well.

Waldo.Pepper
05-25-2009, 12:49 AM
Two points I would like to make. Firstly the posted article was a better read than Hotel Tacloban. (If you have not read Hotel Tacloban - don't bother!)

And secondly regarding the talk of appesement. Read this article to find out how conflicted the public was about the coming conflict in the pre-war run up. There was almost NO stomach for another war. Appeasement was a word used. But it did not have as much resonance as it did acquire. Chamberlain was a hero of epic proportions. Right up until the day he wasn't.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/book/chamberlain/a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/book/chamberlain/b.jpg

Kettenhunde
05-25-2009, 01:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> And secondly regarding the talk of appesement. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good point. Just like the Spitfire article attempts to put the reader in the thinking of the period; we should remember things were seen in a very different light at the time.

IIRC, almost an entire generation of British men went missing in the casualties of WWI.

IMHO the lesson for the present is that no matter how much we value peace, the only way to have peace is to be prepared for war.

All the best,

Crumpp

Ba5tard5word
05-25-2009, 02:05 AM
If you want an interesting look at how Britons around 1938 or 1939 saw the clearly upcoming war, I would recommend George Orwell's novel "Coming Up for Air." It was published not long before the outbreak of WW2, and has several interesting and chilling passages where the narrator talks about how obvious it is that the nation is going to war, and about bombers doing daily practice flights over London. Plus it's a really good book besides. Orwell's view at the time was that the war would cause the UK to become fascist or authoritarianly socialist (as also seen in 1984) in order to fight or join the Germans, fortunately he was wrong.

Waldo.Pepper
05-25-2009, 02:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
IMHO the lesson for the present is that no matter how much we value peace, the only way to have peace is to be prepared for war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suspect that you realize this already but merely preparing for war is insufficient. 'Preparing for war to preserve the peace -' I think, is a trite homily that performs the function of brevity well, but fails miserably as an admonition for policy makers. Furthermore, unless examined more completely, it tends to serve as ammunition for the hawks. Sadly, the complexity of the world is again to blame.

I am not wishing to be critical of your opinion or to drag the topic too far off topic. Or perhaps worse still - to commit the unpardonable sin of talking of contemporary politics. But I draw a lesson for the present which is different.

I can't help thinking that if things had turned out differently and the peace were preserved by Chamberlain, then he would have remained a hero, and the then 'hawk' of British politics, Churchill, would have been the buffoon of history. (Or more likely returned to the pasture of obscurity.) Wasn't it Churchill himself who proposed The Unnecessary War as the moniker for World War Two, as it could so 'easily' had been avoided? 'Achieving' a war, any war - is in itself a failure and nothing to be celebrated. Churchill knew this, hence his nomenclature suggestion. Preventing WW2 was an achievable goal, everyone believed this - yet it occurred anyway.

These days, until recently the Hawks had been ruling the roost. They had prepared for war and look at what it got them/us? They prepared for a war, and by gum they got one. If preparing for a war was necessary and sufficient to guarantee the peace, then we should have achieved peace.

The failure of a war is to be avoided by the tool of diplomacy, backed up by a credible deterrent. Timing would seem to be very nearly everything. But in addition to timing you still have to implement your decisions deftly with intelligence. And even then - you can make all the right decisions and still loose. It makes me wonder about the psychology of politicians. Why is it that they would be so willing to enter such an arena - where the stakes are so high and the variables so ephemeral? They much all have gangantuan egos.

Waldo.Pepper
05-25-2009, 03:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
If you want an interesting look at how Britons around 1938 or 1939 saw the clearly upcoming war, I would recommend George Orwell's novel "Coming Up for Air." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Coming up for Air - Public domain - online here.

http://www.george-orwell.org/C...p_for_Air/index.html (http://www.george-orwell.org/Coming_up_for_Air/index.html)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Orwell's view at the time was that the war would cause the UK to become fascist or authoritarianly socialist (as also seen in 1984) in order to fight or join the Germans, fortunately he was wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps it only took a little longer for Big Brother to achieve dominance? Hope not.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

uppurrz
05-25-2009, 04:00 AM
It was nice of Chamberlain to buy time with his appeasement. GB was in no position to challenge Nazi Germany.

Kettenhunde
05-25-2009, 04:50 AM
You in fact agree with what I wrote.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Wald.Peper says:
backed up by a credible deterrent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is the same as:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Crumpp says:
IMHO the lesson for the present is that no matter how much we value peace, the only way to have peace is to be prepared for war.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All the best,

Crumpp