PDA

View Full Version : POLL --- Padlock is it a cheat?



xTHRUDx
12-18-2003, 09:30 PM

xTHRUDx
12-18-2003, 09:30 PM

Tully__
12-18-2003, 09:33 PM
Padlock is a choice.

=================================================

http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/Corsair.jpg

IL2 Forums Moderator
Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm)


Salut
Tully

adlabs6
12-18-2003, 09:44 PM
Yea, I love 'em too!

Say it with me... annonymity!

Now I can vote YES! and post NO! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/sigUBI.GIF
My FB page (http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/)| IL2skins (http://www.il2skins.com/) | OMEGASQUADRON (http://777avg.com/omegasquad/)

resev
12-18-2003, 09:45 PM
Here i go again.

I've never seen padlock as some sort of cheat, not even a exploit either.

I only have 30º of vision straight ahead of me, and while i'm on someone's six, i can't possibly mess with the POV hat.

The healty human beeing as a field of vision of 180º if using both eyes, and his head is free to move as he pleases, with no effort, wich makes him keep his eyes on the ball at all times.
Am i supposed to be stucked with only 30º FOV, i certainly do not.

I plain and simply don't fly in servers that don't have padlock activated.

The only ones with a knowledge of cause that i see complaining, are the ones using a Hotas, and/or a TrackIR.´

WUAF_Badsight
12-18-2003, 11:01 PM
its a cheat if your of limited imagination

we are using 2-D here people

georgeo76
12-18-2003, 11:06 PM
I really like PL It reduces your work load. Especially now that it's range has been limited, it's very fair IMO. What we must remember is that although some of us have the equipment to effectively pan and search, many ppl only have one hat switch if that, and for them, padlock is a must

http://webpages.charter.net/Stick_Fiend/images/alex.jpg
"Oh bliss, bliss and heaven. Oh, it was gorgeousness and gorgeosity made flesh. It was like a bird of rarest spun heaven metal, or like silvery wine flowing in a space ship, gravity all nonsense now. As I slooshied I knew such lovely pictures."
Fiend's Wings (http://webpages.charter.net/Stick_Fiend)

ElAurens
12-18-2003, 11:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
Padlock is a choice.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well put. the only exception I have is if externals are on, then it is dubious, as it is more often as not used as a long range "radar" of sorts...

LeadSpitter_
12-18-2003, 11:59 PM
padlock is good for noobs and the 40+ club who cant see so good anymore

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LS1.txt

oFZo
12-19-2003, 12:53 AM
In my defenition a cheat is something not all players have access to/know about, like speed hacks, aimbots and the like. padlock is a feature of the game that's either on or off for all players, therefore no cheat IMHO.

Now if your question is "Do you like padlock?" I'd say "no" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-oFZo

Founding member and Offical Keeper of The Herbs of the Eurotrolls.

Bearcat99
12-19-2003, 01:03 AM
No......... a cheat is something no one else can get acess to. Padlock can be used by everyone on a server.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]

Slush69
12-19-2003, 02:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
Padlock is it a cheat? when flying online
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the most absurd post I've seen today. Wait, come to think of it, Leadspitter's reply might rival it ...

cheers/slush

Foxcubs
12-19-2003, 06:35 AM
to me, padlock is an accurate simulation of turning ones head to trak a plane. In real life, people dont use their joystick to look around.

TgD Thunderbolt56
12-19-2003, 06:48 AM
I don't see PL as a cheat, but I usually don't/won't fly on a server that allows it because a key part of my "game" is to acquire the enemy with stealth and get the first shot. PL all but eliminates this tactic.

http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

NorrisMcWhirter
12-19-2003, 06:49 AM
Ditto, Foxcubs.

Now, ask me if TrackIR is a cheat... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Regards,
Norris

VW-IceFire
12-19-2003, 06:52 AM
I say it is not a cheat. Its a feature to overcome an inherent weakness in that unless you have purchased some extra device, you're neck is not connected to the control systems in the game so you cannot turn your head to follow a target. You must then manually (I do it with the hat switch) try and follow the target...an extremely annoying thing to do.

There is no argument in WWII pilots not having padlock - WWII fighters didn't have a limited view point called a computer screen and their eyes were quite a bit better than what we have here. Limitations of technology overcome by technology - what the problem with it will never cease to amaze me.

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig.jpg

SmokeJaguar
12-19-2003, 06:53 AM
I do not classs padlock as a cheat. If I find a server without padlock I fly bombers. Though I prefer a server with padlock enabled because my eyes are 37 years old and I love flying P39's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.km011a0004.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/siggy.jpg
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Lights?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Server crashed again!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

tsisqua
12-19-2003, 06:58 AM
If you map a joy key to "return to center with padlock", it can be very useful. When I first started using padlock in IL2, it killed me more than the enemy planes did. Very disorienting.

http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg

StG77_Kondor
12-19-2003, 07:07 AM
I voted no for a few reasons.

Personally I dont like padlock, nor use it. Padlock in the right settings is good, but if you have PL set at 5-10km distance, then people will use it as radar.

A good distance for PL is 1-1.5km

-------------------
Stukageschwader 77
"The Fire Brigade!"

http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/181203-NeumullerF-1.jpg
Leutnant Fritz Neumuller
Staffelkapitan 7./StG77 May 1944
610 combat missions
Over 50 Russian tanks destroyed
-----------------------------
http://members.fortunecity.com/stg77/index.htm

Real_Kill
12-19-2003, 07:15 AM
You forgot the...

Silly Poll
I Want A Taco

options.

I vote... Silly Poll

Aardvark892
12-19-2003, 08:01 AM
Yes, I voted "NO", but I had to follow thru with why I think it ain't. I've got TrackIR, but I still allow PadLock on the Lan servers I host here in Korea. Not having padlock means you're limited to that awkward forward/90 left/90 right view, and in dogfights, that just isn't acceptable. Padlock needs work, admittedly, to stop the "radar" effect, but it's too necessary to let that interfere.

Recon_609IAP
12-19-2003, 08:04 AM
Not a cheat, but an easier setting than full real.

Highest difficultly level is full real, any added item is merely decreasing the difficulty.

I prefer full real as it adds the immersion, and the pilot must track his own bogey's without computer aids.

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

BpGemini
12-19-2003, 08:08 AM
Decreasing screen resolution is way more of a "cheat" than padlock.
Padlock levels the playing field for people with low-end systems.
I can play with or without it but I host with it for the reason above.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/bp_geminiCombined.gif

gibbleturge
12-19-2003, 10:26 AM
I vote "NO"

I would say using Track Ir in servers with padlock disabled is cheating though.


Soul

tagert
12-19-2003, 10:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
Padlock is it a cheat? when flying online
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes... and no

TAGERT

A.K.Davis
12-19-2003, 10:38 AM
As far as I know, you cannot adjust padlock distance. It is set for 3km. Adding an ability to adjust this distance to the "mpdotrange" command lines would be very nice. I think 2km-1.5km would be ideal.

Another refinement would be making padlock not break when an enemy moves behind part of the canopy frame, and definitely not break if the enemy is anywhere within the player's line-of-sight. As it is now, it tends to break when the enemy is in the 5, 7 or high 6 o'clock positions, even though the aircraft is still in plain view using the "wide" setting. (It appears that padlock is tied to the "normal" field-of-view range.)

Also, the snap-view-forward function needs to be refined to be somewhat more restrictive, but only if the above are corrected first.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

tagert
12-19-2003, 10:49 AM
|_|_|_|_|T|
|_|_|_|_|r|
|_|_|_|M|a|
|_|_|_|O|c|
|_|_|P|U|K|
|P|K|O|S|I|
|L|B|V|E|R|
===========
|X|_|_|_|_| Auto Detect/Find TGT's
|X|_|_|_|_| Auto Identify
|X|_|_|_|_| Auto Tracks TGT's
|X|_|_|_|_| Maintain Track
|X|_|_|_|_| Places Target Box around TGT's
|X|_|_|X|X| Fluid Motion
|_|X|X|_|X| Provides Feedback

Definitions:

PL = Pad Lock
KB = KeyBoard
POV = Point of View (HAT)
MOUSE = Mouse
TrackIR = TrackIR

1) Auto Detect/Find TGT's
The ability to lock onto a target you actually have not seen yourself. That is you can press a key and if there is a target within the the viewing area it will lock onto the closest one. This feature removes the responsibility from the pilot to find a target and gives it to the PC. Thus making Situational Awareness (SA) tatics automatic. Considered by many as un-realistic and therfore disabled by most HOSTS in realistic servers.

2) Auto Identify
The ability to determin friend or foe without seeing the markings on the aircraft. Typicaly indicated by the icon itself, but when icons info and range can be adj by the host, making the icon harder to see. Considered by many as un-realistic and therfore disabled by most HOSTS in realistic servers.

2) Auto Tracks TGT's
The ability to follow a target as it changes direction without any intervention from the player. This feature removes the responsibility from the pilot to maintain track and gives it to the PC. Thus making the old saying LOSE SIGHT LOSE FIGHT a non-issue. Considered by many as un-realistic and therfore disabled by most HOSTS in realistic servers.

3) Maintain Track
The ability to follow a target as it changes direction even when it passes behind an obstruction, i.e. wings, canopy struts, mountain, clouds, etc. without ever losing lock. The lock was intended to break after a few seconds thus requiring the pilot to maneuvers his aircraft to remove the obstruction and maintain sight of the target. But due to the LOOK FORWARD key it was found that you only have to hold down the LOOK FORWARD key while the target is obstructed. This comes in very handy for the Boom and Zoom tactics employed by some Bf109 pilots that like to make repeated passes on their targets. In that there is no need to maintain sight of the target, just apply the LOOK FORWARD key, zoom up and and get into position. When ready, turn back for another pass, release the LOOK FORWARD key and you have instantly re-lock onto your original target. It is also very useful when at tree top level and tracking a drak green aircraft, where if you dont maintain SA you could lose sight of it, no need to worrie here the PC maintains the lock for you. Considered by many as un-realistic and therfore disabled by most HOSTS in realistic servers.

4) Places Target Box around TGT's
It is intended to be used to indicate which target the PC has Auto Detected/Found. Problem is it never goes away, and comes in very handy when one is chasing a target that has passed over some ground clutter i.e. trees, towns, etc. Considered by many as un-realistic and therfore disabled by most HOSTS in realistic servers.

5) Fluid Motion
The smooth transition of the view system from one view to the next. It provides no advantage over other view systems, but for what it lacks in advantages it makes up for in immersion.

6) Provides Feedback
There are certain views from within the cockpit where there is no part of the aircraft visible to provide a reference point of where you looking. This is very noticeable in the bubble type canopy. Without a form of reference the pilot can become disoriented and thus reform an un-intended maneuver.

TAGERT

[This message was edited by tagert on Fri December 19 2003 at 09:58 AM.]

millwall_mick
12-19-2003, 10:58 AM
i'm not exactly a noob but i an over 40 and i have never used padlock or external views or icons so to me its nothing.
to my way of thinking it is possibly a nuisance,how can you fly properly close to the ground while you are padlocked onto someone ?

resev
12-19-2003, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by millwall_mick:
i'm not exactly a noob but i an over 40 and i have never used padlock or external views or icons so to me its nothing.
to my way of thinking it is possibly a nuisance,how can you fly properly close to the ground while you are padlocked onto someone ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh realy!?
In that case tell me how can you support having 30º of field vision horizontaly, and 20º verticaly, straight ahead of you, when you are on top of a bogey at 0.10m, trying his damnest to shake you, and still keep your eyes on him!?

Don't bother to answer, without PL or trackIR or a Hotas mouse emulation, its not possible, no matter how many turns you may give it.


BTW, only someone seriously dumb would keep an enemy padlocked while close to the ground, one might as well just pick a tree of choice and ram it hard, it would be a faster way to die.

The answer is no one inteligent would use PL close to the ground.
We fly aircrafts, not lawnmowers, they are meant to be kept high and above, not low and shaved, unless you are flying a IL-2, in wich case at that height you won't be doing much dogfight either way.
Its the same thing regardless of how i show it.

DrDave242
12-19-2003, 11:38 AM
Padlock in itself is not a cheat, IMHO, simply because anyone on a PL-enabled server can use it. I choose not to.

Here's how I would improve padlock to eliminate its usage as a sort of radar: Simply make it impossible to lock onto any plane not within your field of vision. If you're not looking at something, you can't padlock it. Doesn't seem like it would be too hard to implement.

There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who can count in binary, and those who can't.

HL callsign: FruitPieJones
Today is a good day for pie.

gates123
12-19-2003, 01:59 PM
________________________________________________
Quote:
Oh realy!?
In that case tell me how can you support having 30º of field vision horizontaly, and 20º verticaly, straight ahead of you, when you are on top of a bogey at 0.10m, trying his damnest to shake you, and still keep your eyes on him!?

Don't bother to answer, without PL or trackIR or a Hotas mouse emulation, its not possible, no matter how many turns you may give it
________________________________________________

I've been playing this game for 4 months. I've never used padlock, track IR or hotas and I seem to do just fine using my hat and mouse with full realism. Yeah its tough to spot bandits at 200m when your at 3k but thats why they invented camo. I've also noticed that servers that disable padlock on and cockpit off always attracts better pilots which in turn makes it a more challanging and fullfilling game. So for all you padlock and external view users out there try a realism server (no enemy icons either) one time and check your pilots skills before you brag about that 4 kill sortie you had the night before.

US380thBG-Tug-
12-19-2003, 03:52 PM
As other posters have pointed out, a game feature such as padlock is hard to consider a "cheat" per se. Not being a TrackIR (or similar) user, I appreciate the option to use padlock in servers. Moreover, your average hat users are at a significant disadvantage to TrackIR users in padlock-off situations, so the option to use padlock sort of levels the playing field. That said, after reading Tagerts post, I can better understand and appreciate while real-setting hosts do not like padlock on their servers.

-Tug

http://imageshack.us/files/siggy.jpg

PriK
12-19-2003, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by resev:
The only ones with a knowledge of cause that i see complaining, are the ones using a Hotas, and/or a TrackIR.´<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it's probably because you aren't aware of the full issue surrounding padlock so your ignorance may be excused. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

#1) Padlock is a choice not a cheat as mentioned earlier. You can choose to fly as you like.

#2) Padlock is excellent for keeping your eyes on the enemy instead of fumbling with the hatswitch.

#3) Padlock, no matter how it's set, allows anyone to instantly find a bogie they might otherwise have missed sneaking in on them simply by repeatedly stabbing the padlock key. Just like the WWII pilots did. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

#4) You are not less of a man for using padlock as long as you are playing with other people who also rely on it to find and identify opponents.

#5) Yes, it is harder to play without PL but more immersive without floating coloured triangles telling you where to shoot. Some people seem to like playing this way. Go figure!

#5) Yes, everyone is well aware that they are playing a video simulation. Let's find some new argument that doesn't delve into the semantics of what is Full Real and what isn't. Let's just call it, "More Real". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

#6) You are absolutely correct that we would probably see a lot farther and be able to identify targets better in real life than in the game. Unfortunately, back in the day pilots had to use their own eyes to find planes.

#7) People have found a way to use PL to stay locked when chasing someone through clouds. Nice eh? I'm not sure if this was fixed or not after the patches so feel free to correct me if this is no longer the case.

#8) And most important: Play whichever way is most FUN for you! Just don't try to convince yourself and others that the radar capabilities of Crutch Lock are more "real" than without.

That should sum it up. Oh, and many in my squad use padlock which is fine by me because I play this game for the immersion not for bragging rights. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://members.rogers.com/4xtreme/chbanner.jpg

millwall_mick
12-19-2003, 04:19 PM
[/QUOTE]


Oh realy!?
In that case tell me how can you support having 30º of field vision horizontaly, and 20º verticaly, straight ahead of you, when you are on top of a bogey at 0.10m....blah blah"

well son you lost me on the first line.
all padlock is to me is another button to push. i dont reckon it makes life easier or harder,its an option nothing more.

RayBanJockey
12-19-2003, 04:41 PM
If padlock is a cheat then someone needs to tell Oleg about it.

Oh wait Oleg already said it should be part of full real ...nevermind.

It's just an option for trackIR users to turn off should they need an extra advantage to succeed.

SmokeJaguar
12-19-2003, 04:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soulsurfer25:
I vote "NO"

I would say using Track Ir in servers with padlock disabled is cheating though.


Soul<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that is exactly why I (and others) rarely play in PL off servers!

http://www.km011a0004.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/siggy.jpg
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Lights?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Server crashed again!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Scragbat
12-19-2003, 05:12 PM
Oleg likes it, I like it.
Using padlock close to the ground is not suicide. Maybe it is if you are not adept with it. It can be used simply or it can be used with skill.
I for one can use padlock while I am close to the ground in a weaving turning fight and I am still able to know/sense where the ground is and not crash. This requires skill.

I have never used PL as a radar by constantly tapping it as has been said to find invisible NME's. I zero my prey visually then hit PL simple as that. Anyone who says I radar with it hasn't seen me playing.

For a host with TrackIR to disable PL and expect people to match his/her tracking capabilites with their HAT switch is deluded.
If you don't have trackIR and you join a PL disabled server that has trackIR users, then you are at a disadvantage.
Fumbling with the HAT switch while manouvering your flight stick simultaneously trying to follow an NME is difficult.
Using your flight stick and turning your head with trackIR is easier, much easier than using the HAT.
If the HAT was just as easy then why would people buy trackIR. It's an aid, meaning it makes things easier.
It's a great toy and makes tracking aircraft more realistic and gives you more immersion maybe, but to then take PL away from people who might join your server just because you have TIR puts them at a disadvantage.

I know, I know it is your choice wether you join a server with PL on or off but it is still plain that you are at a disadvantage on PL disabled servers hosted by TIR users.

If trackIR was so great why should these users feel threatened by PL users.

PL is not a cheat. It's built into the game. TIR doesn't come with the game.

TIR users on PL disabled servers have two choices. Use TIR or use HAT.
Those without TIR only have the HAT option.

Both of course have mouse look.

If you host with TIR and deliberatley disable PL... Then I think that is perhaps a little bit of a cheat. If you own TIR you will probably say I am full of $h!t...

OH no the flames, the heat!!!! NOOOOOOO!!!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Scragbat
12-19-2003, 05:29 PM
Here's a funny thing.
Can you imagine if alongside Padlock on/off there was another button which said TrackIR on/off.
TIR users, will you sleep tonight now that I have put this thought into Olegs mind? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif LMAO

I would love for people to have the ability to disable TIR on their server. I think this is only fair since they can disable my tracking aid.
I wanna disable yours muhahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

Oleg, implement it Pleeeeeeeaaaaaaasssssseeeee!!!!!

Sleep easy folks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PriK
12-19-2003, 06:57 PM
I think I will sleep very easily tonight knowing that Oleg is intelligent enough to be able to distinguish between a tracking aid and crutch. I really wonder at the IQ level here sometimes when some folks can't use simple logic. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I suggest reading Tagert's post again. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As for the person who says they don't use PL as radar, well, that's nice of you but maybe a little nieve to think that people wouldn't use PL like that. I commend you on your noble intentions though.

Those of you that whine about TrackIR as a cheat are incredibly dumb, young, or just new. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

TrackIR users have no problem with you using padlock to follow your targets, why would they? I bought a TIR so I could be immersed in the game and have a more realistic situational awareness without having to rely on the computer to find targets. I dunno, maybe we actually like a challenge and not have the work done for us.

Like I said, in my squadron servers I'm at a serious disadvantage with TIR because PL is enabled. I do well enough despite this and get a great deal more satisfaction in doing the work myself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://members.rogers.com/4xtreme/chbanner.jpg

Scragbat
12-19-2003, 07:22 PM
What was that about IQ?

'nieve'?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Would you like me to spell it for you?

That's Tagerts view of PL.

Anyway with icons off PL cannot auto identify. PL locks any a/c with icons off I beleive...
Auto tracking? With TrackIR I assume moving your head is second nature. Meaning you don't really have to think about it. Isn't this close to auto tracking?

I don't radar...
Where did I say people don't use it like that?
I said I didn't. Don't care if people believe me or not really.
TrackIR is fine if PL is available. Disable it and you have the edge...

Tagerts diagram is pretty but it's his creation, thus his opinion.

Tracking aid = PL
Crutch = TrackIR
Oleg knows the distinction.

[This message was edited by Scragbat on Fri December 19 2003 at 06:41 PM.]

gibbleturge
12-19-2003, 07:48 PM
PriK wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Those of you that whine about TrackIR as a cheat are incredibly dumb, young, or just new.

TrackIR users have no problem with you using padlock to follow your targets, why would they? I bought a TIR so I could be immersed in the game and have a more realistic situational awareness without having to rely on the computer to find targets. I dunno, maybe we actually like a challenge and not have the work done for us.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The people who "whine" about Track IR, are simply saying that people who use it in servers with padlock disabled have an advantage. I would imagine using Track IR makes life a lot easier than using the mouse or hat switch to look around. I fail to see how that makes them "incredibly dumb". After glancing at your avatar name, I can see why you would make such comments http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Soul

A.K.Davis
12-19-2003, 09:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tagert:
|_|_|_|_|T|
|_|_|_|_|r|
|_|_|_|M|a|
|_|_|_|O|c|
|_|_|P|U|K|
|P|K|O|S|I|
|L|B|V|E|R|
===========
|X|_|_|_|_| Auto Detect/Find TGT's
|X|_|_|_|_| Auto Identify
|X|_|_|_|_| Auto Tracks TGT's
|X|_|_|_|_| Maintain Track
|X|_|_|_|_| Places Target Box around TGT's
|X|_|_|X|X| Fluid Motion
|_|X|X|_|X| Provides Feedback

Definitions:

PL = Pad Lock
KB = KeyBoard
POV = Point of View (HAT)
MOUSE = Mouse
TrackIR = TrackIR

1) Auto Detect/Find TGT's
The ability to lock onto a target you actually have not seen yourself. That is you can press a key and if there is a target within the the viewing area it will lock onto the closest one. This feature removes the responsibility from the pilot to find a target and gives it to the PC. Thus making Situational Awareness (SA) tatics automatic. Considered by many as un-realistic and therfore disabled by most HOSTS in realistic servers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Padlock only works within 3km and, just like a human, has huge blindspots (in fact, blindspots are worse than human, as I noted above). If you are relying on padlock to make your initial spot on an enemy, you are putting yourself at a HUGE disadvantage. 3km is a matter of seconds in high speed air combat, and if you are only reacting to enemies within this distance, your situational awareness will be terrible. Furthermore, you will not spot targets even when they are within 3km if they are in the rather large padlock blindspot areas. Padlock "radar" will also do nothing for you if you are properly bounced from behind and below. But even if someone does foolishly decide to use padlock this way, they will still have to be constantly moving their head. In real life, if an average fighter pilot was constantly scanning the skies, he would very likely spot any aircraft within 3km given normal conditions. The result of using this padlock "exploit" is in fact not terribly unrealistic.

I have always used padlock because 1. I do not have TrackIR and 2. thumb-hatting aggravates my wrist. I have never used padlock to make my first spot on an enemy. The only time I have used it to lock an enemy I can't see is when I have rotated my view to where I know an enemy I have already spotted should be, but which I can't see due to some LOD merging problem typical of FB graphics at this range (but more on that below). In fact, I find myself using padlock less and less other than for close range maneuvering, because it tends to ruin your situational awareness.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>2) Auto Identify
The ability to determin friend or foe without seeing the markings on the aircraft. Typicaly indicated by the icon itself, but when icons info and range can be adj by the host, making the icon harder to see. Considered by many as un-realistic and therfore disabled by most HOSTS in realistic servers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not a problem on "no icons" servers. On icon servers, it is only a problem if you chose to use very restrictive icons. If you want friendly-only icons, then just set them for 3km and the problem is solved. "3km is too far to be realistic" you say? Well consider it a compromise for both the artificial view of the sim, the disparities in graphic output between different computer systems and for the average player's lack of real-time radio communication with his wingmen.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>2) Auto Tracks TGT's
The ability to follow a target as it changes direction without any intervention from the player. This feature removes the responsibility from the pilot to maintain track and gives it to the PC. Thus making the old saying LOSE SIGHT LOSE FIGHT a non-issue. Considered by many as un-realistic and therfore disabled by most HOSTS in realistic servers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unrealistic in comparison to TrackIR or to a 360 deg. viewing system certainly, but no more or less realistic than tracking something visually using your thumb.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>3) Maintain Track
The ability to follow a target as it changes direction even when it passes behind an obstruction, i.e. wings, canopy struts, mountain, clouds, etc. without ever losing lock. The lock was intended to break after a few seconds thus requiring the pilot to maneuvers his aircraft to remove the obstruction and maintain sight of the target. But due to the LOOK FORWARD key it was found that you only have to hold down the LOOK FORWARD key while the target is obstructed. This comes in very handy for the Boom and Zoom tactics employed by some Bf109 pilots that like to make repeated passes on their targets. In that there is no need to maintain sight of the target, just apply the LOOK FORWARD key, zoom up and and get into position. When ready, turn back for another pass, release the LOOK FORWARD key and you have instantly re-lock onto your original target. It is also very useful when at tree top level and tracking a drak green aircraft, where if you dont maintain SA you could lose sight of it, no need to worrie here the PC maintains the lock for you. Considered by many as un-realistic and therfore disabled by most HOSTS in realistic servers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is a legimate problem with padlock, one which we should all let Oleg know is an important issue. Snap-view forward is an absolute necessity (even Track IR has a center view automatically function), but it should not be used to maintain a lock when it should break. However, the unrealistic advantage this offers to ALL players in limited situations does not outweigh the advantage afforded to only SOME players with superior hardware (i.e. TrackIR and better, smoother, faster graphics) in ALL situations.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>4) Places Target Box around TGT's
It is intended to be used to indicate which target the PC has Auto Detected/Found. Problem is it never goes away, and comes in very handy when one is chasing a target that has passed over some ground clutter i.e. trees, towns, etc. Considered by many as un-realistic and therfore disabled by most HOSTS in realistic servers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you consider it realistic that a large object relatively close to you that you are tracking with your eyes should be visible over a field, but as soon as it passes over a forest, become invisible? You also probably are not considering that it is easier for some players to track aircraft over certain backgrounds because they have better FPS when viewing these backgrounds.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>5) Fluid Motion
The smooth transition of the view system from one view to the next. It provides no advantage over other view systems, but for what it lacks in advantages it makes up for in immersion.

6) Provides Feedback
There are certain views from within the cockpit where there is no part of the aircraft visible to provide a reference point of where you looking. This is very noticeable in the bubble type canopy. Without a form of reference the pilot can become disoriented and thus reform an un-intended maneuver.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is of course why Oleg considers padlock an essential part of a realistic simulation experience, despite its foibles.


If you want to host a padlock server. Fine. If you want to host a TrackIR server. Great. Just can the BS realism and macho-man arguments.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-19-2003, 11:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
Padlock is a choice.


Salut
Tully<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

http://www.il2airracing.com/images/IL2AirRacing.gif

Eagle_361st
12-20-2003, 12:46 AM
When the visibility and movement and field of vision is real, and things can be seen as they were in real life. Then and only then would I consider flying Fullofyourself Real.

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
www.361stvfg.com (http://www.361stvfg.com)
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1003.jpg

RayBanJockey
12-20-2003, 01:51 AM
People who don't like padlock are the same people who refer to something by it's button, instead of it's name. They never put padlock and padlock-next on top of their stick where it belongs. They get owned online because their buttons positions havent changed. So they have to buy trackIR as a crutch in order to see any good.

I don't need padlock to beat the 2nd best pilot in full real 1 vs 1. But when it's a furball going on, padlock is one of those things that makes the sim alot more enjoyable. Basically padlock then hit gunsight view for ID. Otherwise, you are just trapped behind a computer screen.

RocketDog
12-20-2003, 04:51 AM
Padlock is great. Much more realsitic with it enabled.

Regards,

RocketDog.

WooHooToYou
12-20-2003, 05:21 AM
I think this poll is a bit stupid.

As has already been mentioned a cheat is something that gives some players an unfair advantage (like a wallhack in an FPS game).

If it's there for everyone to use it's NOT a cheat.

PriK
12-20-2003, 12:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soulsurfer25:
PriK wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Those of you that whine about TrackIR as a cheat are incredibly dumb, young, or just new.

TrackIR users have no problem with you using padlock to follow your targets, why would they? I bought a TIR so I could be immersed in the game and have a more realistic situational awareness without having to rely on the computer to find targets. I dunno, maybe we actually like a challenge and not have the work done for us.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The people who "whine" about Track IR, are simply saying that people who use it in servers with padlock disabled have an advantage. I would imagine using Track IR makes life a lot easier than using the mouse or hat switch to look around. I fail to see how that makes them "incredibly dumb". After glancing at your avatar name, I can see why you would make such comments http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Soul<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alright then, let me clarify for you since you decided to take your own meaning from my post instead of what was written there. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Yes, TIR is an advantage in PL disabled servers for those that have it. Oh, and so is that shiny new Radeon 9800 or big screen monitor or P4 5ghz. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What's dumb is classifying TIR as a, CHEAT. I really hope you can see the distinction here. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Oh, and very clever comment about my nick, you must be awfully pleased with your imaginative wit. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://members.rogers.com/4xtreme/chbanner.jpg

PriK
12-20-2003, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eagle_361st:
When the visibility and movement and field of vision is real, and things can be seen as they were in real life. Then and only then would I consider flying Fullofyourself Real.

~S!
Eagle
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's great and you can enjoy the game that way if you wish! Some people like to play with unlimited ammo and no stalls too, that's one of the great things about this game.

Pouty wittle comments like Fullofyourself Real makes you look a little childish though. You really don't have anything to prove to anyone do you? Oh, that's right it's not the way YOU like to play so there must be something wrong with it.

Not everyone can handle playing FR or simply don't find it fun or have the time. No need to get defensive about it.

I'll say it again: padlock is great! The only major issue with it is having it find planes that you wouldn't have seen otherwise. Nobody really has a problem with using it as a tracking aid.

http://members.rogers.com/4xtreme/chbanner.jpg

AFJ_Locust
12-20-2003, 12:48 PM
NO!

Padlock is not a cheat but it does ruin DF IMO,
Id rather see limited/custom Icons and no padlock in a game because its alot easier to force the overshoot & take back a fight if padlock is off. if its on it makes sizors & other overshoot manuvers alot less effective

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1068129235.jpg

Tully__
12-20-2003, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:

Some stuff....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ease up on the personall stuff (and the others involved) and stick to the subject please http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

=================================================

http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/Corsair.jpg (http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm)

IL2 Forums Moderator
Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm)


Salut
Tully

PriK
12-20-2003, 01:05 PM
I didn't think I was being personal but on re-reading my posts I can see how it might be provocative. The "dumb" comment was an unintentional generalisation. I'm sure the intended recipients of that remark may just be a touch ignorant about the subject matter and not actually dumb. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://members.rogers.com/4xtreme/chbanner.jpg

SmokeJaguar
12-20-2003, 01:06 PM
Padlock off servers are great if you have TrackIR.

Otherwise (IMHO) they suck unless you dont mind flying bombers!

http://www.km011a0004.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/siggy.jpg
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Lights?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Server crashed again!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFJ_Locust
12-20-2003, 01:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RayBanJockey:
People who don't like padlock are the same people who refer to something by it's button, instead of it's name. They never put padlock and padlock-next on top of their stick where it belongs. They get owned online because their buttons positions havent changed. So they have to buy trackIR as a crutch in order to see any good.

I don't need padlock to beat the 2nd best pilot in full real 1 vs 1. But when it's a furball going on, padlock is one of those things that makes the sim alot more enjoyable. Basically padlock then hit gunsight view for ID. Otherwise, you are just trapped behind a computer screen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ray Id rather have external padlock if you use internal padlock people tend to get target fixation & forget about there wingman & the fact that theres 6 or 8 other bandits that are in the area lookin to whak him, while hes locked in on one pilot....

about 75% of the time im fighting 3 or more ground huggers and internal padlock just slows down reaction time, I change targets constantaly according to there threat matrix http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1068129235.jpg

BM357_cat6
12-20-2003, 01:30 PM
Padlock is a feature...not a cheat.. I never use it though....

antifreeze
12-21-2003, 02:29 PM
Try evading and disengaging from a player who is using padlock and has 'instant-forward-view-with-padlock' bound to a trigger button. It is very difficult. Whatever smart maneuvers you pull, you can't lose him long enough so that you can get on his six. He can always quickly see where you are in the sky, using the IVFWP to retain lock on you even if you are not in line of sight.
I find that dogfights are different when padlock is available. In 'full-real' alot more dogfights seem to end in one or both planes disengaging due to losing sight of each other and the players becoming too nervous to stick around. But padlocked dogfights tend to play to the death, because the person who disengages is basically dead meat (if the enemy has enough speed to get on his six).

Also try sneaking past someone who knows you are somewhere down there amongst the trees, but actually can't see you. A few left and right turns whilst clicking the padlock button and he's got you.

If both pilots are using padlock then it is fine, I guess, because neither has an advantage. But if one player is using only mouse/hatswitch, surely he needs to have much more skill in flying and shooting than the other guy to win. ie. I think a player can raise their skill level by using padlock.

http://forgotten.battles.pulpo.co.uk/il2logo.gif

PriK
12-21-2003, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by antifreeze:
Try evading and disengaging from a player who is using padlock and has 'instant-forward-view-with-padlock' bound to a trigger button. It is very difficult. Whatever smart maneuvers you pull, you can't lose him long enough so that you can get on his six. He can always quickly see where you are in the sky, using the IVFWP to retain lock on you even if you are not in line of sight.
I find that dogfights are different when padlock is available. In 'full-real' alot more dogfights seem to end in one or both planes disengaging due to losing sight of each other and the players becoming too nervous to stick around. But padlocked dogfights tend to play to the death, because the person who disengages is basically dead meat (if the enemy has enough speed to get on his six).

Also try sneaking past someone who knows you are somewhere down there amongst the trees, but actually can't see you. A few left and right turns whilst clicking the padlock button and he's got you.

If both pilots are using padlock then it is fine, I guess, because neither has an advantage. But if one player is using only mouse/hatswitch, surely he needs to have much more skill in flying and shooting than the other guy to win. ie. I think a player can raise their skill level by using padlock.

http://forgotten.battles.pulpo.co.uk/il2logo.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the ironic thing TIR whiners don't get, their padlock is more of an advantage than a TIR but they tend not to notice when they are happily flying along in PL enabled servers.

http://members.rogers.com/4xtreme/chbanner.jpg