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pmckelvy
02-25-2005, 06:31 PM
This maybe a newbie question, but the forums are pretty slow. I feel like I'm getting better at dog fighting but I still suck at deflection shots. I've gotten good at getting on the AI's six at will. (you good pilots may laugh but I feel good) Anyway , I go through missions in Fall Blau or the given campaigns in the game and don't get even shot at by enemy fighters but I just seem to suck at deflection shots. Should I expect to kill on every pass or every couple or are they hard and I'm progressing as is normal because it's a hard shot. Just wondering how I might be doing. Online I'm happy becuase I've dodged better planes with better pilots but not come close at a firing solution and been happy but offline I'm wondering if I should be better.

Mac out

pmckelvy
02-25-2005, 06:31 PM
This maybe a newbie question, but the forums are pretty slow. I feel like I'm getting better at dog fighting but I still suck at deflection shots. I've gotten good at getting on the AI's six at will. (you good pilots may laugh but I feel good) Anyway , I go through missions in Fall Blau or the given campaigns in the game and don't get even shot at by enemy fighters but I just seem to suck at deflection shots. Should I expect to kill on every pass or every couple or are they hard and I'm progressing as is normal because it's a hard shot. Just wondering how I might be doing. Online I'm happy becuase I've dodged better planes with better pilots but not come close at a firing solution and been happy but offline I'm wondering if I should be better.

Mac out

Tully__
02-25-2005, 06:37 PM
Until you get your eye in, deflection shots are hard. Set up some practice runs in Quick Mission Builder to allow you lots of practice.

ClnlSandersLite
02-25-2005, 07:40 PM
I suggest enemy bombers with no ammo first as they're big slow and will let you make a **** load of passes before you have to relaunch. Once you're confident with the bombers, set up enemy fighters with no ammo. They're harder cause they're smaller and faster and will dodge you more.

Foxtrot-Hotel
02-25-2005, 08:35 PM
Just keep practicing, with harder targets from time to time, and you'll maybe see amazing results, you wouldn't belive what "unreal" shots are possible with some of the planes....
Sometimes I hit the fire butten in a dogfight not knowing myself why I have done this, until I see bullets hitting the target at impossible distance or angle, but such reflexes, which appear from time to time may need some more training(I fly the sim 3 years now, and I consider myself a good since half a year or so..)

pmckelvy
02-25-2005, 11:22 PM
Thanks guys I'll just keep at it, every few shots I nail 'em good and sounds like I'm on the right track.

F19_Ob
02-26-2005, 02:43 AM
Deflection shooting is the key.
Some planes are more difficult than others depending on armament and performance.
There are also usually problems when switching between planes.
For example:
A bf109 with 30mm cannon is totally different to a yak3 regarding how much lead to pull.
-------------------------------------------

A tip is to stick with a few planes while learning and getting used to some guns and distances.
The optimal thing is to be able to deflectionshoot at both short and long distances.
To be able to do that u need to get familiar with the situation when to fire at a certain distance.

How much lead must I pull at 500m in a 90' shot, and what does that picture look like?
If u have fired enough times U will know the right moment to fire. In time u also will be able to determine the approximate distance comparing the enemy planes size with your crosshair and its circle.

Record tracks so u can determine if your shots go infront or behind.
The standard problem to overcome when starting to fire at long distances is to learn to fire earlier than u think is nescessary. The majority of the rounds usually still goes behind the target.
One have to practise this part even when experienced.

With small caliber ammo U usally dont fire beyond 4-500m because the rounds do little damage.

With heavy mg's or fastfiring cannons its possible to fire even beyond 500m.
Note that some planes have too little ammo to waste but sometimes a near hit also may give desired results. There are other reasons to fire than to hit.

A monster on longrange deflectionshooting is the il-2 with its fastfiring cannons and mg's and generous ammo load.
It can hit targets at 4-500m frequently with the proper tecnique but also at the incredible range of 700-800m, although 800m is really too far. But if one plane can Its the sturmovik.
I have hit at 1000m on climbing planes enough times ,so it cant beonly luck although I very much enjoy good fortune.

Most fighters should really not fire beyond 500 if its not a special situation ( on a plane on top of his climb or so), perhaps mainly because of the ammo load.

There is no doubt in my mind that the pilot who maximises his shooting opportunities will also survive often because he is used to fire and hit on ranges where some pilots have no thought of even start firing.
U also have a chance to hit a comparable or better fighter since u have more time to pull proper deflection on long range and may even force a foe to evade your burst and let u end up in a more favorable position .
---------------------------

I belive the above have allowed me to disable or kill multiple experienced axis pilots online
In my heavy doubleseater il-2, wich is rare.
I have been able to damage them on long range before they have had the opportunity to fire at me, or get too close for me to maneuver to shooting positions.
Still get wasted often by the ones that sneak up on me unseen in heat of battle and stay close.

Hmm...perhaps I shouldnt have given away this last tactic for 109's, they still have the advantage anyway.

well, a few thoughts.

F19_Orheim
02-26-2005, 04:19 AM
Good post ob.... I fly too much Cr@pplanes so when I enter those late war monsters I totalyy suck at deflection shooting.

rnzoli
02-26-2005, 12:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pmckelvy:
Thanks guys I'll just keep at it, every few shots I nail 'em good and sounds like I'm on the right track. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Speaking of the right track, save the tracks and re-play them from the viewpoint of the target. That way you can see how much you missed and which direction.

While playing, I try to look at the smoke trail of the tracer, and try to see whether the target aricraft covers it for a short moment or not. If the trail gets covered for a moment, my shot missed in front (too much lead), if the trail remains visible, the shot passed behind (too little lead).

Also pay attention to head shake effect in tight turns.

These things helped to resolve my beginner's frustration. I am still a beginner though, but a happier one.

ClnlSandersLite
02-27-2005, 12:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Speaking of the right track, save the tracks and re-play them from the viewpoint of the target. That way you can see how much you missed and which direction.

While playing, I try to look at the smoke trail of the tracer, and try to see whether the target aricraft covers it for a short moment or not. If the trail gets covered for a moment, my shot missed in front (too much lead), if the trail remains visible, the shot passed behind (too little lead).

Also pay attention to head shake effect in tight turns.

These things helped to resolve my beginner's frustration. I am still a beginner though, but a happier one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I go further than this and it's really helped my gunnery. I started messing around with this guncam applet ( http://www.errthum.com/troy/warbirds/guncam/index.html ) and reviewing my gunnery.

After playing with it for a couple of days, I found that my gunnery suddenly doubled in accuracy. This is probably because I ended up spending a fair bit of time looking at my gunnery. Not flying, not blowing shots in the wind, just watching my gunnery with no other distractions. The more I watch it, the better I get. Now I create cam footage for every mission I fly and watch it very closely. Every time I study my footage, I get a little better.

For a quicker less effort version of this, you could start saving tracks, turn on manual view and turn off the cockpit while watching them. Just keep the camera straight and watch closely. The advantage of going to the extra effort to make straight up footage is that you can watch JUST the gunnery and not be distracted by the rest of the fight.

F19_Ob
02-27-2005, 02:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ClnlSandersLite:
..... I found that my gunnery suddenly doubled in accuracy. This is probably because I ended up spending a fair bit of time looking at my gunnery. Not flying, not blowing shots in the wind, just watching my gunnery with no other distractions........ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Good show. That applet probably made U focus and think about what u were doing instead of just reacting on the situation .

For a long time (a few years)I flew only a few planes. mostly one plane. I think that made me improve fast in regards of learning to understand and recognize the situations 'when' to fire at all distances.


Thinking ahead in battle can actually be divided in several parts.
One is the pure gunnery part and another is the tactical part, know thy enemy and such.
yet another one is maneuvering your plane to the limit.

Together these parts will give u enough experience to make educated 'guesses', like for example to know where the enemy likely will be in the next moments and thus already concentrate to aim at that spot from start instead of trying to counter or dodge the enemys moves.
This extended understanding works wonders when flying in low-performance planes against better ones.
Exept for maximizing the shooting opportunities it also may shorten the actual combat wich always is good.

With this said U probably also know that there are many extreemly good online pilots who mainly uses one or two planes and has been practising this "thinking ahead" for years now and they are almost unbeatable, especially in the highperformance planes.

--------------------------------

oh...and thnx orheim.

VFA195-MaxPower
02-27-2005, 02:54 AM
Enemy bombers with no ammo are not necessary. Start a mission vs b17s and attack them only from head on or diving from above them where your speed is greater than 450 km/h. This will teach you how to deflection shoot quickly. If you are not getting hit by them, you are diving fast enough.

Once you can do all 4, try a bomber challenge where you try to down as many as you can without getting hit. This is how I taught myself the mk108 vs. fighters. You simply practice judging the speed, and then try and extrapolate it onto the faster moving fighters. It's not instananeous but it works.

F19_Ob
02-27-2005, 02:59 AM
I just wanted to add a thing to my first post. A thought about a problem with high-angle deflectionshots and the targets speed.

The problem is determining the enemys speed wich play a major part when trying to hit on these high angles, especially so on longer ranges.
To know the performance of the enemy plane is very good because u can then guess what speed he might have after a hard turn and thus calculate the deflection better.
A longer burst lessens the problem a bit and makes a hit more likely. This is to prefer on long ranges, even with cannons, since even if only one single shell hits its worth the waste if it damages the enemy so u can improve your situation.
Better to return to base with empty guns than be shot down with full ammoload.
Especially important in slow unmaneuverable planes like a Hurricane or il-2, for example.

Another trick when firing on long range is that u have slightly more time and acually can roll your plane level after pulling lead, so u can see the enemys flightpath from the front+side or side window and thus will be able to determine the right moment to start firing and be able to watch and corrct the burst.
This is possible to do on short range aswell but u then have less time and therefore mostly snapshoot by pulling lead so the enemy dissappears under your nose instead wich is the most common.

"Thinking ahead" practise has allowed me to do the 'first' more frequently on shorter ranges and I often instinctively maneuver so I see the enemy coming from my side window , instead of dissappearing far below my nose and thus lose contact.
This perhaps don't sound so difficult but it took me a long time to get used to this and it really messed up my orientation and situational awareness in the biginning. But as always, when done enough times it becomes second nature and I cant say that I actively think about it anymore. Its more like another tool along with the rest.
I guess one dont think much on how one uses the screwdriver when working with it.
But at one point one have to think: What to do,
how to do it and why.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

-------------------------
Sometimes later I will post some shortened tracks from my archives as examples on this matter, as I used to do.
These tracks still helps me to remember and contemplate.
I also still study and cycle through other players on my tracks and try to figure out their tricks and specialities. Sometimes I have logged on online only to record a track of an interesting pilot.
-----------------------------

For me the two hardest angles to fire on is the 90 degree shot and the semi-headon (=almost head on) and are the ones I practise on offline.

This is one of the reasons why one should turn into the enemy when attacked or bounced, so u give him the hardest angle possible.


ok... done

TheCrux
02-27-2005, 06:36 AM
Nix unlimited ammo if you're using it.

I started out and used to fly with unlimited ammo, and then slow down the action while shooting.....and I sucked at gunnery.

I started flying w/limited ammo on a campaign and gunnery in real time ( normal ). I found the "pressure" made me a much much better shooter. Even though it's just a game, there was enough immersion that I REALLY wanted to make it through a campaign and really believed I had to conserve my shots. Rather than spraying and praying, I got to the point where I could tag an enemy plane HARD with just a quick half-second Buuurrrrp.

han freak solo
02-27-2005, 11:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I started out and used to fly with unlimited ammo, and then slow down the action while shooting.....and I sucked at gunnery.

I started flying w/limited ammo on a campaign and gunnery in real time ( normal ). I found the "pressure" made me a much much better shooter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, I got better with limited ammo. It forced me to aim more precisely and use burst shooting. A short burst can be just like shooting a scoped rifle. Kinda sniper like, "1 shot - 1 kill", but of course more "shots" or passes on target can be neccessary.

However, when flying American aircraft, my bursts have to be longer to have effect.

JerryFodder
03-16-2005, 06:38 AM
The biggest shock for me was realistic gunnery over unlimited ammo. When I first switched to that I felt I couldn't bring a thing down whilst getting cut up easily myself. With practise I now tend to just get in closer and more accurately which can rip off the odd wing and certainly have enough to bring down 3 fighters.

What distances do others shoot at? and how do the figures relate to real life? I used to shoot at .35 ish, but now I don't bother unless it's .25 at least, .20 - .12 is normally the kill zone for me - Does this make me a **** shot? Head on nutcase passes under 1.0 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The IL2 is a tough beast though, only the other day I unloaded the remaining 3/4 of ammo I have in a zero directly on the 6 but the monster flew on with all the damage. Yes I did hit it too!
I also had a head on collision with a 109 trying to stop my bomb run in and IL2, he went down in flames, I only lost my rudder but flew on to hit the target and get home to land! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

F19_Ob
03-16-2005, 08:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JerryFodder:
What distances do others shoot at? and how do the figures relate to real life? I used to shoot at .35 ish, but now I don't bother unless it's .25 at least, .20 - .12 is normally the kill zone for me - Does this make me a **** shot?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


With fighters its normal to save ammo for shorter ranges up to around 300m.
Fighters with many heavy mg's can fire on longer ranges and hope to damage the foe to improve the situation.
Planes like La7 or fw190 with 3 or four 20mm cannons can also benefit from firing up to 400-600m.
Small caliber ammo should really be used up to 300m only because of the small impact, but the situation determines.

Pilots in Bf110 and il-2 really must learn longrange shooting if they want to deal with fighters because they cant turn with the enemy and thus shouldn't let them close.
These both have a big ammoload compared to most other planes so one can chance often and try to force the enemy to maneuver.

As mentioned in my earlier post I often fly the Il-2 and I normally try to shoot first if I can and often begin firing beyond 800m if in some kind of head-on.
The dense fire, range and hittingpower is what enables it to do that.
I often succeed in forcing the enemy to evade if I dont hit, wich may allow me to maneuver to a better position for the next shot.
This still doesn't make it easy though.

On long range u have more time to aim and pull lead and thus aim on a spot in space wich the enemy likely will pass.
The almost head-on at long range is perhaps the most difficult to hit on since the profile is small and the deflection is difficult because of the high closingspeed.
I try to start firing a few seconds earlier than I think is nescessary and let the foe fly through my burst.

Many online 110 and il2 pilots that I have watched and recorded tracks with have not maximized their shooting opportunities and have waited for the enemy to come closer before firing and thus playing on the fighters terms and lost if they missed because of their worse maneuvering performance.

So generally one can say its good to fire on long ranges if U have lots of heavier ammo and are hampered in performance (cant turn well or catch up with the enemy).
If u have only a few guns and/or have speed u are capable of slashing attacks on closer ranges and thereby have a choice.
-------------------------------------------

The figures in RL varies depending on plane and pilotskill.
Only experienced pilots hit frequently on long ranges but as I mentioned above, the planes with speed could catch up with the enemy and thus could choose to fire on closer ranges wich was the norm.

I read about one Morane saulnier pilot who on several occasions hit enemy fighters on around 500m with the 20mm cannon.
A Finnish pilot did this aswell.

jugent
03-16-2005, 09:35 AM
Check you conf file in the ubisoft catalog. Set arcade=1 and you can se your hits. If the AI is a plane that can take a lot of punishment, you think that you miss.