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hugso
11-23-2005, 12:20 PM
As an old(ish) geezer who has been playing IL2, PF etc offline for nearly 12 months (Xmas present) I am still amazed at the level of detail and realism of the sim. It is a childhood dream come true.

I have recently achieved an extra level of immersion with my set-up by picking off the signals to the motors of my Force Feedback joystick and, after a bit of trial and error, filtering the signal and feeding it through an amp to Bass Shakers in my seat.

Now I feel the bump as my wheels touch down on the runway, the rumble and bumps when rolling along a grass strip, the jolts with air turbulence, the extra vibration when flying with full flaps down, the shock when plane is struck by shells etc.

It has been well worth the effort, you really feel far more immersed in the sim. In fact just simply feeding the audio into the seat is fun - engine noise vibration, gun vibration etc, but the FFB is the best bit.

Now, does anyone know of a more elegant way of obtaining the FFB information from inside the program and converting it into analogue signals suitable to feed into an amp?

While my set-up works really well, at present I have 2 pairs of wires coming out of my joystick (and a fiddly job it was taking it apart, soldering on wires and re-assembling it).

Having read some of the recent posts about making instrument displays on separate screens etc I am sure this must be child's play to some of you guys, but it is way beyond me. While I am quite happy with some simple electronics I have no idea how to go about extracting information from inside the program and converting it into analogue outputs (ideally ignoring the "stiffness" and "springiness" information which is not required) to feed into a mixer and amp. My perfect gizmo would be a box to plug into a USB port with two phono outputs of analogue signals. Any ideas? There must be a market for something like this, it really does add a whole extra level of involvement.

Great sim! Looking forward to BoB. - can't believe the level of detail in that Spitfire cockpit.

P.S. Has anyone else noticed since 4.02 the engine noise runs on for one or two seconds after the prop has stopped turning when engine turned off?

DxyFlyr
11-23-2005, 12:33 PM
achieved an extra level of immersion with my set-up by picking off the signals to the motors of my Force Feedback joystick and, after a bit of trial and error, filtering the signal and feeding it through an amp to Bass Shakers in my seat


As ridiculous as that sounds... I want one! I don't know what a bass shaker is, however. Does it make low frequency noise loud enough to shake stuff? ...like wake the wife and kids loud?

When the smart people come and figure this out for you, you could market this gadget. I'd buy one.

rnzoli
11-23-2005, 12:36 PM
I have recently achieved an extra level of immersion with my set-up by picking off the signals to the motors of my Force Feedback joystick and, after a bit of trial and error, filtering the signal and feeding it through an amp to Bass Shakers in my seat.

Oh, noooo! I wanted to do this as the world's first...! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

But oh, yesss! So finally it works for someone! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Now serioiusly, I see your problem, but I don't think the devicelink possibility conveys FFB information. I would think along the lines of processing the FFB signals X-Y and the actual stick position X-Y. There should be a way to get rid of the centering spring force and leave only the dinamic forces to shake your chair. But perhaps even some low-pass filters would do this job anyway.

LEBillfish
11-23-2005, 12:39 PM
Not so sure I'd get much combat done with that.......and I'd end up smoking too much http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

neural_dream
11-23-2005, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Not so sure I'd get much combat done with that.......and I'd end up smoking too much http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.nrj12.fr/commun/n318x238/news_1113223758.jpg

polak5
11-23-2005, 12:47 PM
be careful not to light ur butt on fire.

Freelancer-1
11-23-2005, 12:47 PM
Someone beat you to it.

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/ButtKicker%20Gamer_home.html

And it actually works as advertised!

DxyFlyr
11-23-2005, 12:49 PM
Wouldn't you know it... all the great ideas are already taken.

Freelancer-1
11-23-2005, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Not so sure I'd get much combat done with that.......and I'd end up smoking too much http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


Like the song says...dirty, sweet and you're my girl...

neural_dream
11-23-2005, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
Someone beat you to it.

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/ButtKicker%20Gamer_home.html

And it actually works as advertised!
too expensive http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

davstub
11-23-2005, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
Someone beat you to it.

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/ButtKicker%20Gamer_home.html

And it actually works as advertised!

Yes, but it's only playing with the audio signal, not the force feedback.

DxyFlyr
11-23-2005, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by davstub:

Yes, but it's only playing with the audio signal, not the force feedback.

Good point. I imagine the wheels touching down should have a more pronounced impact on the uh, seat, than when the guns are fired, but the guns are louder in game than the touchdown.

BaldieJr
11-23-2005, 08:15 PM
Buy a cheapy ffb stick and gut it.

With this game you can have a ffb stick plugged in and ffb enabled in-game and the stick will wobble/buck even if its not in use.

I had a gutted wingman on my test bench one day when i discovered that the ffb continued working even though i was flying on my x45.

Bearcat99
11-23-2005, 10:28 PM
So arent you going to tell us what wires you routed and where?

Troll2k
11-23-2005, 10:57 PM
You can get some Aura Bass shakers here pretty cheap.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Par...%20Shakers%20at%20PE (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-027&raid=1&rak=Aura%20Bass%20Shakers%20at%20PE)

I suspect that the sound and ff forces are related.

As I understand them these are transducer that convert the signal to mechanical movement.there is no sound to wake the wife.

I while make someone made a vest(looked like a motocross vest) with some transducers in it that when you got shot it thumped your chest.

From the site wired.com I found this.

Magic Fingers Vest
The Interactor Vest from Aura Systems, Inc. will kick you in the chest and tickle you up and down your spine. Strap it on and plug it into the audio output of any game, CD, or TV system. Using the same technology currently employed at the Luxor Hotel's Theater of the Future, the US$100 vest translates bass sounds into transducer vibrations. Adjustments allow you to filter out particular sounds while intensifying others. With the Interactor, playing Mortal Kombat will never be the same again. Aura Systems Inc.: +1 (310) 643 5300.

TooCooL34
11-24-2005, 01:13 AM
Wow, I want to know the mechanism. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
Buttkicker is a bit lame idea since it produces vibration from sound source.
It'll be far better if they would catch vibration source from FFB signal, not sound. Gadget itself is a cool idea.

Hope FFB vibration comes into chair or rudder pedals in future. Stick simulate tension change, chair or pedals simulate vibration of aircraft.

rnzoli
11-24-2005, 03:02 AM
Yeah... How sweet it would be to fly into a cloud and feel the shaking of your chair due to turbulence in the sim.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

polak5
11-24-2005, 04:10 AM
kinda of $$$$ sounds kol dough...

Dew-Claw
11-24-2005, 04:54 AM
http://www.saitek.com/uk/images/product/pcp/p2500.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Plus_sdkfdkfd.gif/180px-Plus_sdkfdkfd.gif
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:XG0HC9TpewwJ:http://www.panthereast.com/images/duct%2520tape.jpg
http://www.anabiosispress.org/images/equalsign.gif
$21.99
same thing on a budget, slightly less powerful, but strong enough to shake the whole chair, and the buttons and can be mapped to AND it reacts to force feedback not Bass sound waves.

hugso
11-24-2005, 04:56 AM
Further to my original post, if there is not an elegant IT solution to this I will stick with my wires coming out of my joystick.

For anyone with the pluck to dismantle their joystick and invest in an amp and bass shakers, this is what I did.

I soldered a pair of thin wires to the terminals on the motors in the joystick. (You really only need the to and fro one, there was not a lot of "bumps" information in the side to side one) Just outside the casing I used twin screened microphone-type lead to the filter unit to prevent hum pick-up.

This gives a signal of about 30 volts with a lot of high frequency content (presumably "stiffness" information) which needs filtering out to leave the "bumps" signals which are about half a volt.

Now, if I can get it to work, (and forgive me if it comes out huge or tiny, but I am taxing my computer knowledge to the limit here) there should be a scruffy cicuit diagram which works for me.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d113/hugso/scan.jpg

I found it improved the effect if I set the "springiness" in the joystick control panel to 50%. This did not seem to alter the feel of the joystick, but reduced a sort of rumble feeling when moving the stick back and forth.

I am sure you will need a bit of experimentation, but it does work really well for me, esp. landing on the temporary airstrips on cleared roads in Kurland Winter maps. Quite a challenge doing "circuit and bumps" as narrow and bumpy. Great fun when you get tired of shooting folk down. And that winter scenery and mists is really good, too.

Good luck if you have a go.

hugso
11-24-2005, 04:58 AM
Oh dear, no image. How do I get a scanned image to work?

Dew-Claw
11-24-2005, 05:03 AM
Actually the duct tape is a joke.
Mine is tied nicely to the front of my left armrest, just under my fingers.
It shakes the whole chair, the wire tucks neatly into the cushion to route out to the computer, keeping it out of the way when moving the chair.
It really works rather well, and is a heck of a lot cheaper and labor intensive for those that dont want to be tearing apart old sticks

B16Enk
11-24-2005, 05:19 AM
Oh dear, no image. How do I get a scanned image to work?

Use the img and /img tags thus: <pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">http://www.imagehost.com/yourscanimagename.extension</pre> tags to enclose the link to your image file.

You will need a image host, like photo bucket, to host the file.

hugso
11-24-2005, 05:31 AM
Try image again..

http://imagehost.com/scan.jpg.extension

hugso
11-24-2005, 05:35 AM
Nope, still don't get the trick

B16Enk
11-24-2005, 05:38 AM
Sorry the word extension refers to the image type, in your case it's a .jpg

'imagehost' refers to the name of the web site hosting for you, such as photobucket or your own personal web pages.

Do you have an account with a hosting company?

If not try http://www.photobucket.com, you upload the image there once you have an account, and they automatically create the 'img' tags and address for you.

Alternatively I can host it for you PM me and I'll give you my email address to send your image to.

TooCooL34
11-24-2005, 05:44 AM
Or you can try,
http://www.imageshack.us/
It's easy here.

B16Enk
11-24-2005, 05:45 AM
More detail:

Suppose you have an image called scan.jpg (scan being the name and jpg being the extension or type).

You have an account with photobucket.com and want to post the image here.

Then you would paste the url to the image like this (the url is genererated automatically by photobucket and is unique to each image):

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">http://www.photobucket.com/myaccount1234/scan.jpg</pre>

A real example from my photobucket account:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/B16Enk/googleoid.gif</pre>
Note the extension here is 'gif' not jpg as that is the format the file was created in:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/B16Enk/googleoid.gif

Full posting form on this forum is also helpful, as it has shortcuts for this.

hugso
11-24-2005, 09:34 AM
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d113/hugso/scan.jpg
I hope I've cracked it and here is (hopefully) the scruffy circuit diagram of the filter I used. The parts are not that critical, probably tial and error with bits you may have to hand.

hugso
11-24-2005, 09:42 AM
I give up!

TooCooL34
11-24-2005, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by hugso:
<center>
<img src="http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d113/hugso/scan.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com"><br><br>
</center>
I hope I've cracked it and here is (hopefully) the scruffy circuit diagram of the filter I used. The parts are not that critical, probably tial and error with bits you may have to hand.
It should be like this in your post.
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d113/hugso/scan.jpg
</pre>
This forum doesn't allow typical <> tags.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d113/hugso/scan.jpg

TooCooL34
11-24-2005, 09:57 AM
hugso, we need actual pictures also. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

hugso
11-24-2005, 10:00 AM
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d113/hugso/scan.jpg
If at first you don't succeed....

hugso
11-24-2005, 10:13 AM
Thanks to B16Enk for the photobucket link. Please excuse me for being so dim. It's a generation thing. When I was at school we only had paper and pencils. If you were really good they gave you a pen.

T_O_A_D
11-24-2005, 12:04 PM
Cool idea, I would like to see more on it aswell.

jds1978
11-24-2005, 02:00 PM
Neat!

Cool work, Hugso!

Buster_Dee
11-24-2005, 10:29 PM
Sounds like a heap of fun. I was going to try that, but with a spin. I had worked out a matrix of inflatable bladders (under knees, hips, shoulders, back, and head). Each motor's signal would drive a spool valve that increases bladder pressure. I got the idea from an article about testing cockpit human factors for instrumentation. They wanted the pilot to be exposed to some stresses during the testing, and they figured that anyone who had experienced Gs would be sensitive to small body pressures that could trigger muscle memory. There wasn't much of a budget, so they gave the bladder thing a whirl. They were amazed with the results. I didn't know what the servos were driven by (AC, stepped DC?) and didn't have an Oscope to figure it out, so the idea died. From your project, it sounds quite do-able after all. Thanks for the article.

B16Enk
11-25-2005, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by hugso:
Thanks to B16Enk for the photobucket link. Please excuse me for being so dim. It's a generation thing. When I was at school we only had paper and pencils. If you were really good they gave you a pen.

I remember those days http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pleasure to help m8, and your idea rocks (or is rumbles http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif)

Hydra444
11-25-2005, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Not so sure I'd get much combat done with that.......and I'd end up smoking too much http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

BaldieJr
11-25-2005, 05:24 AM
Any idea of the freq response of the filter circuit?

I wonder how it would work with active filtering / level adjust and a bit of creative mixing into a quad ch. amp. Just add 4 shakers placed left/right/fore/aft.

hugso
11-25-2005, 11:46 PM
Really interesting read from Buster_Dee. I am sure the sort of set-up you describe would work amazingly well. The nearest thing we will ever get to feeling g-forces. Cant't think of a simple way of doing it, though. Each unit would need to be normally in a mid position, so it could push up or down briefly to give the effect, then slowly creep back to the rest position over several seconds. What do we use for actuators? Lets have a good think about this one.....

hugso
11-26-2005, 12:18 PM
On further thought, while for actuators I think something along the lines of an electric motor driving a plunger into a bladder of air linked to, maybe, sections of bicycle inner tube held with a velcro strap to the back of the knees or wherever, all linked by rubber tubing would be worth trying, I fall at the first hurdle, because we would need a signal voltage related to the position of the joystick on each of its two axes, and I haven't a clue how to obtain this.

MEGILE
11-26-2005, 01:54 PM
You could always swim in water.. great immersion.

rnzoli
11-27-2005, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by hugso:
I fall at the first hurdle, because we would need a signal voltage related to the position of the joystick on each of its two axes, and I haven't a clue how to obtain this.
If the joystick has plain old pots, then you can take directly from the pot pins. Cannot load it though, must amplify the signal, otherwise interfere with the joystick position detected by the game.

hugso
11-28-2005, 01:27 PM
Thanks for the thought, rnzoli. Might give it a try. I try to keep the amount of messing about inside the joystick to a minimum, though. They are sooo fiddly and fragile to re-assemble. I've just managed to short out one of the motors in FFB unit. Smoke and big trouble. New unit on order.

rnzoli
11-28-2005, 02:08 PM
Easy does it... don't push the limits too hard http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Talking about wires and taking apart joysticks, here's one that will never be the same again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://web.axelero.hu/rnzoli/joy2.jpg

I have posted this a couple of times in various joystick related threads, but as the long, dark and lonely winter nights come to the Northern Hemisphere, it's worth repeating: for real men, there is nothing like working endless hours on various IL2 accessories http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Buster_Dee
11-30-2005, 10:10 PM
I checked back to see if I got laughed out of the building only to hear more suggestions. I can't stop laughing. You folks have some great imagination.

I really wish I could find my notes. It is much simpler than you might think. I brain stormed about all the basic G-forces that might be felt and broke them down into a matrix table of +/- x and +/- z, and it was surprising how many were mirrored by the inputs to the servos of my MS FFB. The only forces I couldn't seem to cover were acceleration/deceleration (though I have some thoughts), ground looping, the tail lifting/dropping on takeoff and landing, and inverted flight. The system would have been continuous flow, with a recovery tank, and the pressures would have been regulated in the push/pull action of a 2-sided, graduated valve for each axis. The valves would be on the "output" side of the bladders to ensure quick response. I did have bleed-off restrictors, but I don't recall why. Some bladders would have simply been in series so at higher pressures (for example, the lower back bladder would feed to an upper back bladder as Gs increased) or cross fed (e.g., the 2 under the knees could work together or seperately). Accelaration could be modelled, but with a seperate valve (or potentiometer), by capturing forward throttle movement, then bleeding it off, the output being sent right back to the X Z valves or their driving selenoids.

I think if the feed tube sizes were in the ballpark, the rest could be adjusted with pump pressure and valve throw (for example, the selenoids driving the valves could each include a simple pivot arm whose pivot point can the changed).

I think I'll start tearing my room apart now. Those ****ed notes have to be somewhere lol.

hos8367
12-01-2005, 12:04 PM
BAD A$$ hugso! The creativity of these kind of things amazes me. In the FPS world people used to be jealous of my Gaming from a lazyboy setup, but you guys put me to shame! Well done!

P.S. there was a joystick modding site or something I saw once, anyone have a link?

hugso
12-01-2005, 02:32 PM
Thanks for the further notes. I am messing about with sections of bicycle innertube at the moment and developing pressure sensitive switches on the two joystick axes, some way to go, yet, but fascinating idea. Keeps me out of mischief on these dark winter evenings. Her indoors no doubt thinks I am even more crackers than before.

Buster_Dee
12-02-2005, 05:31 PM
Hugso, you are, without a doubt, the most highly-qualified madman I've ever encountered. You've done more in a week than I have in 3 years with this.

Best of luck.

By the way, I PMed you some notes on my concoction. You're welcome to use any ideas you can dredge out of them.