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View Full Version : So What Do You Do After Diving On Opponent ?(BnZ Tactics)(Poss Double Post)



ytareh
01-04-2008, 05:08 AM
Posted Fri January 04 2008 04:05
It seems that whatever I fly -especially 190s- that if I start a diving attack from say 4-6km alt that if I dont hit the guy in the first pass that I can never regain my altitude (or anything near it -I know about the basic laws of Physics!!!).So should I circle around in big very fast horizontal circles or climb ?If climb what is the best speed/angle/approach ?Surely not to pull back the stick to reach BEST CLIMB SPEED (250-300kmh in most BnZ planes)
Also Im getting shot by slower planes behind me in Zoom climbs ....Should I try and level out for max speed escape or use MAX CLIMB SPEED or try steepest stall climb ?Im sure all this stuff is somewhere on the net but as usual you guys will make it simpler and faster for me !Thanks !

knightflyte
01-04-2008, 05:27 AM
Two things I can think of right away.

What is your dive speed? If it's low you're already putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Are you hamfisting the controls, thus bleeding off too much energy? Extend a little and pull back smoothly.

Is your stick extremely sensative, or have you changed the input values of the stick. (Try IL2 JoyControl. Mission 4 Today has it for DL.)

I rarely have trouble getting back up to altitude in a BnZ. The AI aircraft I just BnZed doesn't either. (provided I miss) It's a feature. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

AI climbs very well and isn't limited by pilot error too often if at all. It really doesn't have to worry about engine management. Energy bleed is mostly non existant with them.

So if your comparing your climb rate with an enemy, who because of your sheer dive speed and alt advantage you should climb faster than he, DON'T COMPARE.

ytareh
01-04-2008, 05:35 AM
Im 99% talking about online so AI not really an issue....I keep trimmed up as well as possible when flying just below max dive speed 6-800kmh for most planes

M_Gunz
01-04-2008, 05:40 AM
Originally posted by ytareh:
Posted Fri January 04 2008 04:05
It seems that whatever I fly -especially 190s- that if I start a diving attack from say 4-6km alt that if I dont hit the guy in the first pass that I can never regain my altitude (or anything near it -I know about the basic laws of Physics!!!).

Basic laws of physics might look different when you take engine adding power into consideration.

Booming from too much alt difference is not a good thing either.
Running the attack so your exit is within 30 degrees of the targets flight path is likewise not
a good idea unless you are sure of crippling or killing on that pass.

Good tactic: have a wingman take the follow-up shots.
Bad tactic: fly lone wolf.

You could dive below and attack on the way up, exit behind the target.

JG14_Josf
01-04-2008, 06:12 AM
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/IL2Flugbuch/Vertical%20Zoom.jpg

Ytareh,

The above is one pass from at least 1000 meters above the Spitfire. I like to get straight up as quickly as possible so my trajectory is over and behind the target. If the margin of energy is not enough, then, the target can track, lead, and hit you at the top.

Do you have full elevator control (trimmed tail heavy?) when zooming?

You can zoom up over the target and drop in on the target (rope a dope) like above or you can drag away from the target is a shallow climb and hope that a friend comes along and bags the drag. If you try to go out away from the target horizontally and then up the opportunity to cash in on the smash is gone because the target can gain more energy in less time (in the case of the Spitfire/109 fight above).

That means; you have one try at energy fighting (gamers call hit and run = boom and zoom I think = who knows?).

That may be confusing. Hit and run is when you surprise a lower and slower (or higher and much slower) target (or level and slower) which is to say – you HIT a lower energy target and then you RUN from the lower energy target because you can (you have higher energy).

That means HIT going fast (tough to aim and avoid the collision) and RUN while you can (before the target can catch up) and running level (nose high or nose low) depends upon how much faster the opponent can catch you at the angle of RUNNING chosen (level, nose high, or nose low).

That is HIT and RUN.

If the plane you are attacking can't catch you, say, a Hurricane against a 109F4, then, you can ENERGY FIGHT the Hurricane. You can stay and fight from a HIGHER energy state because you can accelerate faster (able to gain energy better).

In the picture above I knew I had one pass and no more than one pass to WORK the target.

If that were a 109F-4 against a Hurricane, then, I could pass one time – go back up – pass another time – go back up – and keep on doing that until the Hurricane dives away and RUNS or my ability to keep him turning (losing energy) and my ability to keep turning less (maintaining energy) evaporates, then, I have to RUN; however – I can run going up (nose high).

So...you have to have the excess energy (more than the target) enough to get far above the target after the pass – if you don't – then the target can shoot you as you pass over the target.

Know your relative energy state. Watch the target and see if it is turning down low and know that it is lower in energy. Know how much lower in energy the target is relative to your energy. Know how much more altitude and how much more air speed and how much more altitude and air speed combined are needed to pass and the regain enough altitude over the target to stay out of range and lure the target into hanging on his prop and stalling out of control while you still have enough energy to wing-over, hammerhead, and drop nose down in for a killing shot.

If you don't have elevator control, then, forget about it and just HIT and RUN. Find a wingman and get on Teamspeak or Ventrillo. Hit, Run, Drag, and Bag – that is ˜if' you don't have the elevator control.

I have to trim for zooms in a 109. No trim = no zooms. No trim and by the time the nose is vertical the energy is gone, the target is you, the enemy has cut the turn and is in range shooting.

Herr_Falke
01-04-2008, 07:45 AM
JG14_Josf, great example and explanation. Explain this part further for me if you would;


I have to trim for zooms in a 109. No trim = no zooms.

Trimmed how? Up trim, down, Level? Please define.

Thanks

M_Gunz
01-04-2008, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by ytareh:
If climb what is the best speed/angle/approach ?Surely not to pull back the stick to reach BEST CLIMB SPEED (250-300kmh in most BnZ planes)
Also Im getting shot by slower planes behind me in Zoom climbs ....Should I try and level out for max speed escape or use MAX CLIMB SPEED or try steepest stall climb ?Im sure all this stuff is somewhere on the net but as usual you guys will make it simpler and faster for me !Thanks !

Keep your speed in the climb by all means and don't stay in a straight, predictable line.

Just don't make your exit where he can simply pull up and nail you, you can't outrun bullets.

The exit strategy is from Erich Hartmann btw. He approached indirectly, off to the side, hit
from the side and exited behind the target no matter what the results. Very clean and above
all intelligent about it. But then he had no replay button.
As far as I read from both, it seems he took to heart what Marseilles had written and adjusted
to suit himself and the conditions he fought in.

Of course if you're more interested in excuses then fly out in front of a speeding Spitfire,
pull up hard to drag your speed down and then cry about the FM when you get shot down.
Keep screenshots to parade on the board for years to come as if you've found the Holy Grail.

JG14_Josf
01-04-2008, 12:03 PM
Trimmed how? Up trim, down, Level? Please define.

Herr_Falke,

First -

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513AS7S1G9L._BO2,204,203,200_PIlitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg

That (http://www.amazon.com/Schnaufer-Ace-Diamonds-Military-History/dp/0752416901/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199469863&sr=1-10) is a good book on Nighfighters during WWII.

Trim in the game is required to get the 109 to maximum turn performance at maximum g (black out) when going fast enough to black out (above corner speed). The trim allows the pilot to get from no g to max g faster - when getting from no g to max g faster is the thing to do - such as the zoom after a pass to rope the dope.

It is important, I think, to understand what is being simulated; however – I'll first explain what is done in the game.

I have trim on a rotary dial on my throttle. Move the dial one way and the trim goes one way (and visa versa). The way I have the dial set on my setup is to set level flight at top speed where the detent (notch in the middle of the rotary range of movement) is neutral. In other words; when I set the trim to neutral, then, the joystick elevator control axis is in the middle when flying level.

If I move the trim rotary clockwise (down with my index finger) on the throttle, then, the nose of the airplane (simulated of course) goes down; however – only if I do not move the joystick from its centered position. If I move the rotary all the way down, then, I have to keep the joystick way back (as if I were pulling back on the stick in a turn) just to keep the plane flying level. That, I'm pretty sure, is called nose heavy trim or, from another angle, that is trimming for high speed. Eventually the speed in a dive will build up to a point where the stick is almost neutral again.

Another way of looking at this is to consider the trim wheel as a fine adjustment for the elevator where the pilot can lock the flight stick (or wheel) in one spot and fly only with the elevator trim (and the rudder used to roll, so, the flight stick is locked in place and completely immobile). Try that in the game and you may not want to read any further.

On my setup I can easily fly the plane with the rudder and elevator trim. If I want to go slow (climbing with the throttle at 100 percent) I trim up (tail heavy) and the nose comes up as I move my throttle trim wheel up (just like pulling back on the stick). When I am at the climb angle I want, then, I center the trim wheel with small movements up and down to get it just right for that speed (climb angle). If I want to speed back up then I trim nose heavy and the nose comes down as I push the trim wheel downward (just like pushing the stick forward). Using the rudder keeps the plane level in roll (the flight stick does not move).

Now to the zoom climb part:

If I am trimmed for high speed (trim wheel way down and nose heavy), then, I must pull the flight stick back just to maintain top speed in level flight. The range of the trim wheel is enough to nose over at very high speeds if the stick is not moved; again the trim wheel is fine tuning the elevator control. So...I'm trimmed for high speed (no need to push or pull the stick because the stick is neutral because the trim is set for high speed) and this is how I like to shoot targets rather than having to fight the stick. So...I'm going very fast at a target, at high speed, trimmed nose heavy and it is easy to aim; however – the target hears me coming and moves to avoid the bounce (or he looks in the vibration free mirror or his wingman calls or he is simply good at checking his own 6 regularly) so I want to pull straight up because I know I have the energy to rope the dope (I know he is too slow to follow quick enough to get the shot).

Remember – I'm trimmed nose heavy for speed with the stick neutral (no back or forward pressure on the stick) so...the ˜leverage' I have on the elevator to pick that nose up is small, or, the other way to see this is that the power I have to pick the nose up is small because the trim is ˜leveraging' the nose down or nose heavy. If that is not easy to understand then go back to the idea of flying with the trim wheel and go back to diving from slow speed up high to high speed down low. I'm level, high, and slow and I need to push the nose forward so I trim nose heavy which is the same thing as deflecting the elevator with the stick by pushing forward. Suppose that I do not fly with the trim and instead I start diving at my slow speed trim and I start diving with my flight stick pushed forward (instead of lowering the nose by pushing the trim wheel down) - as speed is slow and I'm trimmed for slow speed the stick force needed to nose over and maintain my dive angle is low. As speed increase (and I have not trimmed out the change in speed) the stick force needed to keep the nose down increases (here is where I fly with the trim wheel and stay ahead of that increase in stick force) I trim out or ˜leverage' the force required to keep the nose down. That is fine for aiming at high speed because the neutral stick (no force needed forward or back) is purchased by ˜leveraging' the elevator with the trim function (in a 109 and 190 that function is accomplished by moving the whole horizontal stabilizer and not the elevator) so...that is opposite what is good for pulling lots of g force fast. I want to pull out of my high speed flight fast (under and up on target is a very good idea someone already posted) and to accomplish this I need leverage on the elevator so I trim tail heavy or up on my trim wheel to get that force back (the stick wants to pull back instead of being neutral forward or back) as I move the trim wheel up toward tail heavy or slow speed flight.

I could fly around, if you think about it, with the trim set to the slowest speed setting; however – if you try that you will find it very difficult to nose over at high speed (or impossible) you then have to trim the nose heavy just to nose over (negative g), and, it is very difficult to aim if your stick has tough springs, force feedback, or some other simulated stick force.
Many players, I suppose, who do not understand or do not use trim when playing with the 109s may find the 109 to be a very poor turning plane at high speed. It is not. It is fine at turning at high speed so long as you keep ahead of the trim requirements. At one point the game forced the trim speed change (you can change the dial on the stick but the game slowed the effect down) to a very slow rate of change but even then all the player had to do was dial in the trim earlier when needed. I suppose some player could have complained about an inability to fly like a porpoise fast going full up g and full down g and back to full up g. I saw no reason to complain once I figure out how trim works in the game and I have flown my brothers planes some and trim works a lot like the real thing – in the game.

I may have this whole thing backwards since my elevator springs broke in my flight stick (I'm using very light rubber bands now). If so, then, someone else will probably get it straight.

Herr_Falke
01-04-2008, 02:25 PM
Thanks. In simple terms then, add down trim, either with the games trim or your rotary (which I also have) at full speed.

This will allow me to dive, attack and then climb away, already trimmed out for the climb, so that using elevator (creating unnessesary drag)won't be, to any great extent, needed.

That about what your saying.

Herr_Falke
01-04-2008, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Herr_Falke:
Thanks. In simple terms then, add down trim, either with the games trim or your rotary (which I also have) to fly hands off level at full speed.

This will allow me to dive, attack and then climb away, already trimmed out for the climb, so that using elevator (creating unnessesary drag)won't be, to any great extent, needed.

That about what your saying.

JG14_Josf
01-04-2008, 05:03 PM
This will allow me to dive, attack and then climb away

Herr_Falke,

Down trim is for easy gunnery going fast because you don't have to push the stick forward against any spring pressure; however - that makes pulling up into a zoom climb slow, so, dial in up trim (tail heavy) when going up in the zoom. A good way to test this is to see how fast you can go from, say, 600 km/h to black out. If it takes a long time, then, try the same thing with the tail heavy trim (where you have to push the stick forward to stay level at 600 km/h). If you find that tail heavy trim allows you to get 'instantaneously' pitched up into a zoom faster, then, that is what I mean.

It may be a whole lot easier to just try flying around with the trim rotary and see what happens.