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MiloMorai
12-30-2003, 01:57 PM
The NAA NA57 which are very simular to the NA64 Texan(AT-6, SNJ) were used by the LW. (NAA made the Mustang) The Texan was used to train 1000s of Allied pilots.

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/natrainers.html

MiloMorai
12-30-2003, 01:57 PM
The NAA NA57 which are very simular to the NA64 Texan(AT-6, SNJ) were used by the LW. (NAA made the Mustang) The Texan was used to train 1000s of Allied pilots.

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/natrainers.html

necrobaron
12-30-2003, 02:07 PM
Seems even the Germans loved those old reliable Texans.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Still,they weren't used by the Luftwaffe in large numbers,were they? I would think the Germans more regularly used their home-grown trainers like the Ar-96....

Hanni8
12-30-2003, 07:06 PM
No, but they delivered the Luftwaffe the necessary high octane aviation fuel in September 1940 to down their british friends..., there were several american CEOs (Ford for instance) who earned the "Reichsadler" decoration (the highest decoration of the Reich for foreigners) for their services.

Greets

FI-Aflak
12-30-2003, 10:58 PM
Edit: Modern politics has no place on this forum.

[This message was edited by Tully on Fri January 02 2004 at 02:09 PM.]

TheJayMan
12-30-2003, 11:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hanni8:

No, but they delivered the Luftwaffe the necessary high octane aviation fuel in September 1940 to down their british friends..., there were several american CEOs (Ford for instance) who earned the "Reichsadler" decoration (the highest decoration of the Reich for foreigners) for their services.

Greets<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, Ford was a Nazi scumbag. And, the Germans were sinking American shipping within sight of the New Jersey beaches for a year and our pacifist, isolationist, "Neville Chamberlian School of Foreign Policy" politicians had to let Pearl Harbor happen before we could get in the fight and hand these scum what was coming.



Edit: Modern politics have no place on this board.

[This message was edited by Tully on Fri January 02 2004 at 02:08 PM.]

necrobaron
12-31-2003, 02:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hanni8:
No, but they delivered the Luftwaffe the necessary high octane aviation fuel in September 1940 to down their british friends..., there were several american CEOs (Ford for instance) who earned the "Reichsadler" decoration (the highest decoration of the Reich for foreigners) for their services.

Greets<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Har,har,har...look what Hanni did. While I was referring to the AT-6, he had to go switch it around and make a ridiculous political statement. Isn't that original. Har,har,har...Hanni and Aflak are sooooo clever.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

CARBONFREEZE
12-31-2003, 02:33 AM
Actually they look more like BT-13s to me. Fixed gear.

Russian aircraft require skill to fly.
German aircraft require ten times that skill, and one hundred times the patience!

WUAF_CO_CRBNFRZ on HyperLobby

arcadeace
01-01-2004, 06:41 AM
Ruy, it's a new year. Let the past go and put a smile on your face. Join the forum good buddy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1072923641.jpg

DaBallz
01-01-2004, 09:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiloMorai:
The NAA NA57 which are very simular to the NA64 Texan(AT-6, SNJ) were used by the LW. (NAA made the Mustang) The Texan was used to train 1000s of Allied pilots.

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/natrainers.html&lt;HR&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt; (http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/natrainers.html<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>)

The DC-3/DC-2 was purchased and or manufactured by
Allied and AXIS combatants alike, to include
Japan, Russia, the US, Britian and a bunch
of others.

I have read a number of arguments over the
design of the Zero (A6M series) fighters.
Howard Hughes claimed his H-1 racer was copied,
and some sat those early Texans were more of an influence.
I say they both were and the Zero was a copy
of neither plane. But those Tora Tora Tora
AT-6 Texans modded to look like Zeros are
very convincing.

Oh yes, to add to the piracy list, P&W radials
were manufactured by Japan and Germany.
Basicly a twin wasp powered the Zero.

Da

DaBallz
01-01-2004, 11:09 AM
Pirated sir! Show me a licence payment from the Japanese or NAZI Germany during WWII. I really doubt the Russians paied a penny either! PIRATED is the proper term.

Da


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rhorta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Oh yes, to add to the piracy list, P&W radials were manufactured by Japan and Germany.
Basicly a twin wasp powered the Zero.

Da<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Piracy or licenced (and thus paid for...) production, followed by own further development?

Ruy Horta
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MiloMorai
01-01-2004, 11:34 AM
Way to go, turn an informative post into a flame fest.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

........

The NA57 was the NAA designation for the AF's BT-13 designation.

DaBallz
01-01-2004, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rhorta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
Pirated sir! Show me a licence payment from the Japanese or NAZI Germany during WWII. I really doubt the Russians paied a penny either! PIRATED is the proper term.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, we were not discussing the Russians, but they certainly aquired some US engines before the war and were either working on a licence or developed engines based upon legally bought examples.

The germans, through BMW certainly acquired licenses from P&W (before the war) to produce Wasps and Hornets. A further development (very common with licensed production) was the BMW 132 series of engines. The production of these engines might have been influential wrt the BRAMO 322/323 series and even BMW 801 series engines, but pirated copies these certainly were not.

This is only a general outline...

As for the Japanese, I'd venture to say that somewhere down the line you'll find references to licenses required before the war as well, but I would not try to make a strong case since I lack the material to back it up.

But to end where we started, name the copied engines and we can check your claim more effectively.

Ruy Horta<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"WE"????
As far as I have seen you always make excuses for the Axis powers, so your response is not unexpected. Germany produced the P&W Hornet throughout WWII, and Russia pirated many engines, most notably the Wright Cyclones, R-1820 and R-2600. Japan also pirated the Pratt and Whitney R-1830.
The Soviets continued to produce pirated Wright designs throughout the 1950s.

By the way, the much hated and maligned United Stated paid Rolls Royce a royalty on every Merlin produced.

Da

DaBallz
01-03-2004, 02:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rhorta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:

As far as I have seen you always make excuses for the Axis powers, so your response is not unexpected. Germany produced the P&W Hornet throughout<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So Da, you already figured out the german designations for those engines? To date you have only delivered an insult and a blanket statement unsuported by factual data. Although the former does hurt, I will let it go, but the latter is relatively easy enough topic to continu.

claim: Germany produced the Hornet throughout the war

question: under what name / designation?

I've read some of your posts Da and you seem a knowledgable and fairly levelheaded guy so *we* might be able to continue this in a normal way.

As long as you can cut me some slack...

If people think that discussing the nature of engines is part of apologist/revisionist thinking, than this forum has really reached a very sorry state of affairs.

Ruy Horta<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Three Hornets powered the JU-52.
There were other applications
and other engines pirated
including Simens manufacturing some Bristol designs.

All were likely lisenced before WWII.
I doubt the Nazi's worried about lisence
payments after they started the war.

Da

LeadSpitter_
01-03-2004, 02:49 PM
Most german pilots actually learned to fly in russia, before the 109 was suppost to be an air racing plane http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

as far as I know the at6 was never in britian butthe US and CDN only and the british pilots came to cdn to train.

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
VIEW MY PAINTSCHEMES HERE (http://www.il2skins.com/?planeidfilter=all&planefamilyfilter=all&screenshotfilter=allskins&countryidfilter=all&authoridfilter=%3ALeadspitter%3A&historicalidfilter=all&Submit=+++Apply+filters++&action=list&ts=1072257400)

DaBallz
01-03-2004, 05:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rhorta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Three Hornets powered the JU-52.
There were other applications
and other engines pirated
including Simens manufacturing some Bristol designs.

All were likely lisenced before WWII.
I doubt the Nazi's worried about lisence
payments after they started the war.

Da<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for finishing what you started. Now *we* can finally discuss this as grown men. You are RIGHT, the early Ju 52 did indeed fly with P&Ws.

It was later powered by the BMW 132-series of engines which was an engine based largely on the P&W but with metric measurments. BMW had a licence to produce the original and adapted it to the metric standard before the war. You would have to check the P&W legal department for the legal side, but as far as I know the BMW 132-series is a officially recognized model, albeit that it was based upon the P&W original. Lets not forget that the continued development of a licenced product is a common practice even to this day.

You call it a pirated engine, I call it a continued development. How much did the P&W "copy" from earlier models? How much of the original engine can be said to be original?

The same can be said for the Bristol Jupiter engine, again an engine for which the germans acquired a license, in 1926 by Siemens (actually acquiring the license from Gn├┬┤me-Rh├┬┤ne). The Bramo 323 Fafnir could be called a direct decendant.

If you want to call the BMW 139-series and BRAMO 323-series pirated copies of respectively the P&W Hornet and Bristol Jupiter, than by all means you are free to it. But its nice to see that you at least grant the fact that those German firms had acquired licenses before the war.

I would not call these engines copies, but I guess that we are talking semantics here more than anything else.

Ruy Horta

[This message was edited by rhorta on Sat January 03 2004 at 03:27 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We Americans may have pirated the BMW motorcycle....


http://www.ural.com.au/images/xa.jpg

Da

DaBallz
01-03-2004, 06:13 PM
The bike pictured is a Harley Davidson XA.
It was produced for service in North Africa
because of the problems with chain driven bikes and
sand.

My brother owns a HD XA, it's a very rare bike.

Da

MiloMorai
01-03-2004, 06:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiloMorai:
The NA57 was the NAA designation for the AF's BT-13 designation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Opps, correction.

The NA57 was the BT-14. The NA19 was the BT-9.

The Vultee BT-13 Valiant(BT-15; SNV-1; SNV-2B) looked simular.

There was even a V-12 powered model, the XAT-6E that used the inverted 575hp Ranger V-770-9 engine. It had a top speed of 244mph and a ceiling of 30,000ft, 6000ft more than the AT-6. The possible shortage of engines from P&W did not materialize so only one a/c was made.

.........

France received 110 AT-6s of which 55 were captured by the Germans. They were used by Sonder Flugeugfuhrer Schule at Gottingen.

DaBallz
01-03-2004, 07:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiloMorai:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiloMorai:
The NA57 was the NAA designation for the AF's BT-13 designation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Opps, correction.

The NA57 was the BT-14. The NA19 was the BT-9.

The Vultee BT-13 _Valiant_(BT-15; SNV-1; SNV-2B) looked simular.

There was even a V-12 powered model, the XAT-6E that used the inverted 575hp Ranger V-770-9 engine. It had a top speed of 244mph and a ceiling of 30,000ft, 6000ft more than the AT-6. The possible shortage of engines from P&W did not materialize so only one a/c was made.

.........

France received 110 AT-6s of which 55 were captured by the Germans. They were used by _Sonder Flugeugfuhrer Schule_ at Gottingen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those ranger V-770's were so unreliable they
were responsable for the failure of the Curtiss "Seamew".
It is fortunate that no further trainers were
built with that engine!

Da