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domenlovrec
12-21-2005, 02:17 PM
hi

I've been learning ho to master (i'm far away from that) Bf109. When i use bnz, i dive on spit, i shot, but then i screw something up and he's on my 6. Then it's just a matter of seconds to bring me down. Is overshoot the answer? I throttle down, flaps ful open and gear down. Sometimes i also do barrel roll (i suck at that). Same problem is when there is La7 on my 6. Any tips?

carguy_
12-21-2005, 02:29 PM
Slowing down is stupid.

danjama
12-21-2005, 02:29 PM
Dont screw up. That simple. If your going to overshoot, have a burst if possible, and climb away again with your speed advantage. Dont try and slow down (this is otherwise known as screwing up)! Just climb, and keep an eye and then do it again. If you cant do this then dont fight BnZ.

Kuna15
12-21-2005, 02:29 PM
If experienced player in Spit gets on your 6 and closing there is not much you can do. You can try to evade but like I say whatever you do last word is on Spit jock (is he going to hit or miss).

Your chance may be fast accelerating/deccelerating (Bf-109 is excellent drag machine) + scissors. In flat horizontal turn on deck you don't stand much chance.

@ Dan & CG have already gave you excellent advices. Bf-109 usually have better top speed than Spitfire but what is the use of that if player is going to manoeuver with Spitfire and nullify that advantage.

Just to be clear; once I got diving messer (better e) on my six in Spit MK.8 (http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif) I will try to make a simple evading manoeuver. Now if he follows my first thought is "ok now I will add one more to my tally" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

domenlovrec
12-21-2005, 02:45 PM
Yes, you shoot me down yesterday i think. You were in zero. I was in bf, my nick: ledeni.

Well, i ussualy get away cause i have have greater speed, but my question was what to do when i have same speed as he does. I can't outturn him, i can't climb cause he'll shot me in a sec, i can't...

danjama
12-21-2005, 02:47 PM
Why would you have the same speed as him if you are BnZing and sticking to our advice??

Kuna15
12-21-2005, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by domenlovrec:
Yes, you shoot me down yesterday i think. You were in zero. I was in bf, my nick: ledeni.

Well, i ussualy get away cause i have have greater speed, but my question was what to do when i have same speed as he does. I can't outturn him, i can't climb cause he'll shot me in a sec, i can't...

Yes I remember. I think I may have a track. But you didn't have luck tho because I get your engine with Hispanos in hard deflection iirc. I was in Spit MK.8 CW.
In that situation best option for you was shallow bnz diving pass (~30?) on me and start shooting from 500m. I say 500m because I saw you so there wasn't an element of surpise present and it is highly unlikely that you will get me from close range then.
After initial pass climb up.

Eventually forcing strictly that kind of fight you will force me all the way to ground where I have no other option but to turn and you will almost certainly get good shot oportunity on me.

VW-IceFire
12-21-2005, 03:17 PM
It depends on the 109 but generally you want to stick to a hybrid of BNZ and TNB tactics. I'm not the expert on the later models of 109 but I'm fairly good with the F and early G models.

Against a Spitfire you want to be faster or higher (or both), make a pass, and then zoom back up. Slowing down to get on their six is what the turn and burn pilots do. Don't do it...

Spitfires, Yaks, and other aircraft are generally a hair to quite a bit more manueverable. The 109 can turn well enough and fast enough to make a tracking shot with the nose and let loose several bursts (you don't generally get this with the FW190 except at exceptional speeds) but you don't want to slow down to get on their tail. Stay fast, use the energy to go up and come back down on them.

At the very least, use the yo-yo manuever. Zoom get on their six, shoot, and then when he turns pull back on the stick, go up, wing over and come back down on the other side going the same direction he is. You DO burn energy and his wingman can have you but you can use this, provided you have lots of energy, to get back on the six of a Spit or Yak quickly...even in a FW190.

Chuck_Older
12-21-2005, 05:06 PM
I ain't gonna spit on your six, dude. Ask somebody else

p1ngu666
12-21-2005, 07:31 PM
barrel roll

Hristo_
12-21-2005, 09:28 PM
Allowing someone to get on your 6 inside gun range is losing half of the fight already. Or more. It's like a soccer match - 5 minutes to the final whistle, and the other team has just scored a goal or two of advantage.

If there is a chance for you to outrun the pursuing Spit, go for it. Be calm, use as much unloading (push the nose down until 0 Gs), do unpredictable, yet energy conserving maneuvers. If you can get away in the first place, this usually lasts for 15-20 seconds until you are safe. Granted it will seem like minutes to you.

If there is little chance to escape, do anything else. Be unpredictable, slow down as much as possible and best when under enemy nose, change direction often, also under enemy nose etc etc. Maybe he is not that good and you might even win. Watch him pulling a high yoyo. If he does that, unload and accelerate away. Sometimes it works.

MLudner
12-21-2005, 10:13 PM
I don't think I want to spit on your 6, thank you...

MLudner
12-21-2005, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
I ain't gonna spit on your six, dude. Ask somebody else


D@mn you, Chuckolder! While I was busy elsewhere you just had to jump in first and ruin it for me, you.....
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

slo123
12-21-2005, 11:33 PM
and always remember in case of fire

STOP DROP AND ROLL !!!!!!

Brain32
12-22-2005, 05:38 AM
Never get low & slow in a 109 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Meshsmoother
12-22-2005, 06:20 AM
Yep if you are at almost same speed and with enemy on close 6 you did screw it up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As a FW190 pilot letme say that patience is the key. I know we want instant action and kills, and if we got the bandit smoking on first pass and climb away, another pilot might finish it getting whole points for half of the job, blah, blah, blah... just don't follow the temptation of being there just one more burst, because when you'll rewatch your IAS it will be under 300km/h, and that means you are almost a sittin duck

If you dove, shoot, and missed don't worry about anything else than getting faster an advantage position again to repeat the attack. Use the high yoyo only if no other bandits are near.
Don't start circling with him at same height on the deck, or you have already loose the fight, specially on Me109 where you can't use WEP or manual pp to try a couple loops without frying your engine as FW190-A6 allows you to do. If you see he is not alone keep climbing, cause otherwise the 2nd enemy will be at you in a matter of seconds.

If you realize you screwed it (and it works for both 109 and 190 cause their low-stall speed), do as _Hristo said: be unpredictable, wobble all over, up and down trying not to bleed much E. The average Spit pilot might overshoot and then you might have a chance to runaway, while the experienced Spit pilot will send ya to Heaven by then. At that point is just a matter of luck http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

CPS_Tenato

jugent
12-22-2005, 02:53 PM
Spit was famous for its bad acceleration in real life, but in this game, its like connected to a steam-catapult in a modern carrier.

Dont fly the 109 against a Spit, you got to have numerical superiority or catch him with his pants down if you want to kill him.

Jumoschwanz
12-24-2005, 04:16 PM
Set up a 1 vs 1 server for us and you can attack me from above and behind in a Spit. Take a track each time, then you will have that many ways to get out of the jam. PM me.

Jumoschwanz

Xiolablu3
12-24-2005, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by domenlovrec:
hi

I've been learning ho to master (i'm far away from that) Bf109. When i use bnz, i dive on spit, i shot, but then i screw something up and he's on my 6. Then it's just a matter of seconds to bring me down. Is overshoot the answer? I throttle down, flaps ful open and gear down. Sometimes i also do barrel roll (i suck at that). Same problem is when there is La7 on my 6. Any tips?

What server are you on? Come and fly on the UKded 1 server and I will help you hone yuor technique, just ask, my name on there is -=Xiola=-

It is best not to slow down at all, unless you are going to go so fast that you rip a wing off or lose parts.

Dive on him and take a shot (you will have to lead your target if you are going fast) and then climb away back up high. Once you think you are safe enough, do it again.

Slowing down is fatal, since speed = life, you can trade it for height at any time and escape.
You dont want to be giving away both speed and height otherwise he will have you.

Each time you make a sharp turn, you lose energy/speed and he is that much closer to catching you. If you B&Z him then he has no real chance, it takes longer, but you stay alive.

If the server is good, and your comrades are good, then you will be left with your target if you are on top of the fight.

They should only butt in if you are out of ammo or starting to lose the upper hand. (Or if they are noobs themselves of course)

Xiolablu3
12-24-2005, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by jugent:
Spit was famous for its bad acceleration in real life, but in this game, its like connected to a steam-catapult in a modern carrier.

Dont fly the 109 against a Spit, you got to have numerical superiority or catch him with his pants down if you want to kill him.

Errm was it? I have never heard that before??

I think you are thinking of the Spit Mk1 with its no Negative G manouvres, the engine would stutter in Neg G.

It was never famous for poor acceleration. It was famous for being an incrdibley manouverable and fast close innterceptor.

Can you find me a quote which says the Spitfire had poor acceleration>? I have only found the opposite, claiming it was faster than the same year 109 model. (Spitfire 1A vs 109E3)

Pinker15
12-25-2005, 05:54 AM
If U fly on 109 and U have spit on your 6 at shooting range U are dead and can do nothing. Some mistakes have being made before and now U are lost. U can try to run mabe he will miss. Spit is better dogfighter than 109 and if U have at least 1000m alt mabe better 109's dive acceleration speed can save U.

Skalgrim
12-25-2005, 08:28 AM
spit is only with more power faster as 109, because spit has more drag, she need for the bigger drag more power to get same speed as 109

that means with same power is 109 faster and accelerate better and zoomclimb and dive accelerate too better,

that means important advantage against spit so long 109 has same power



k4 with 2000ps 610km/h sealevel from russia test

spit14 is slower with same power at sealevel,




Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
Spit was famous for its bad acceleration in real life, but in this game, its like connected to a steam-catapult in a modern carrier.

Dont fly the 109 against a Spit, you got to have numerical superiority or catch him with his pants down if you want to kill him.

Errm was it? I have never heard that before??

I think you are thinking of the Spit Mk1 with its no Negative G manouvres, the engine would stutter in Neg G.

It was never famous for poor acceleration. It was famous for being an incrdibley manouverable and fast close innterceptor.

Can you find me a quote which says the Spitfire had poor acceleration>? I have only found the opposite, claiming it was faster than the same year 109 model. (Spitfire 1A vs 109E3) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

JuHa-
12-25-2005, 08:57 AM
Try to accelerate out of the firing distance, unfortunately you can't go straight - so it's
going to be a hard one. After getting 1000-1500m distance, go for a steady climb.

At least with G6/AS vs IXe, Spit is markedly better in zoom climbs but looses in steady climb.
In all manoevering, Spit wins. In diving you'll get a little, but Spit can use geometry to his
advantage and close on you after pull-out.
Remember, Spit can hold 600km/h on the deck after a dive for a long time.

And basicly, if you're flying over ~5000m, you're a toast against a Spit.

Jumoschwanz
12-25-2005, 09:06 AM
The only thing that is going to make a difference between the spit and 109 in this sim is the pilot and whatever luck he has.

I don't have any problem flying either one, or any other plane in the sim. Good tactics and lots of practice using your favourite plane is what will make or break you.
Online recently I was flying an early Stuka, the one with the useless small guns, on the VirtualPilots1 full real server, and I was simultaneoulsy attacked by a Lagg3 and a P-39, I shot them both down. A bit later in a 1vs1 server set up by a squad member from Russia, I shot down his La-7 3x20mm with my 1940 109 E-4. I have had many more similar scraps and victories online, and I attribute them all to simply having more practice and better tactics than the opponents. Of course when you are bounced on a full real server and are hit before you even see your foe, well that is tough luck, but in any confrontation where you are not surprised there is always something you can do about it.
Talking about this or that plane making a confrontaiton a shoe-in is noobish nonsense and that is all it ever will be.
This is not even my original opinion, but the opinion of Chuck Yeager and almost any other top ace you can read about in history books.


Jumoschwanz

alert_1
12-25-2005, 09:19 AM
Spit on my six?I'm sweating like a pig only reading that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif..ok time for Hartmann escape: stick to the right corner, rad closed, throttle firewalled, MW50enabled, maybe combat flpas for a start (but only for momen to get out of his sight) and down we go. If the Spit is "full wings" version, then he may have hard time to follow, if it's CW one, then well, you are scewed anyhow. And most imporatn thing on the end: never go up he's can yoom climb after you like bat from hell! Just go home, sit in office bar and contemplate about your mistakes or even better about switching side http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Awake74
12-25-2005, 09:33 AM
I like MLudner like the Cream. How o a y.

First: Don't put you in that situation. For that, cruise at High attitude as possible, If needed, you can escape with speed and shunt then your Spit. High attitude keep you more safety. and can attack also...€€€€
Secand: Watching around of you everytime. €€
Think Dot is Enemy.

Pinker15
12-25-2005, 09:42 AM
Spit was have more drag than 109 because of its big eliptical wings what makes him slower dive and lower max. speed, but from other hand it gives some advantages over 109 too. For example it gives better E retention, better sustain low speed turn, gentler stall, and better spiral climb. We must remeber that there was Spit CW also. This ver. a bit faster on low alt and was have better roll rate than 109.

Xiolablu3
12-25-2005, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Skalgrim:
spit is only with more power faster as 109, because spit has more drag, she need for the bigger drag more power to get same speed as 109

that means with same power is 109 faster and accelerate better and zoomclimb and dive accelerate too better,

that means important advantage against spit so long 109 has same power



k4 with 2000ps 610km/h sealevel from russia test

spit14 is slower with same power at sealevel,



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
Spit was famous for its bad acceleration in real life, but in this game, its like connected to a steam-catapult in a modern carrier.

Dont fly the 109 against a Spit, you got to have numerical superiority or catch him with his pants down if you want to kill him.

Errm was it? I have never heard that before??

I think you are thinking of the Spit Mk1 with its no Negative G manouvres, the engine would stutter in Neg G.

It was never famous for poor acceleration. It was famous for being an incrdibley manouverable and fast close innterceptor.

Can you find me a quote which says the Spitfire had poor acceleration>? I have only found the opposite, claiming it was faster than the same year 109 model. (Spitfire 1A vs 109E3) </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have read the opposite, that the Spitfire had less drag than the 109?

Maybe the 109 of the same year is faster, but he was talking about acceleration.

Still wanting confirmation of this, if anyone has any quotes please.

I have found this to back up what I thought was correct. Spitfire Mk1 Vs 109E3 (Same year planes, although the 109E3 is a captured aircraft and so may be older)

Quote - 'The Spitfire proved to be considerbaly the faster of the two, both in acceleration and straight level flight, without having to make use of the emergency +12 boost'

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

Spitfire Mk2 vs 109E4

Quote - 'The British have a new engine in their Spitfires and our Me109 can hardly keep up with it. The other day we tangled with these new Spitfires and we had 3 lsses to one success' - Oberlicht Ulrich Steinhilper JG52 - Oct 1940


Quote 'The Me 109 was dived to Mach 0.79 in instrumented tests. Slightly modified, it was even dived to Mach 0.80, and the problems experimented there weren't due to compressility, but due to aileron overbalancing. Compare this to Supermarine Spitfire, which achieved dive speeds well above those of any other WW2 fighter, getting to Mach 0.89 on one occasion.'

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/

The only Spitfire I can think of that Jugent is talking baout when he says it was 'famous' for its poor acceleration is the Spitfire 5 vs the FW190A? Only the Spit 5 was lagging behind the German fighters in performance (vs 109F and 190A), all others were on par or better.

Still asking for where you got this information, Jugent.

Xiolablu3
12-25-2005, 12:17 PM
Onto the subject of how to get the SPit off your six, do not listen to people who say you are dead, dive to get to high speed and try to do energy conserving dodging so that he cannot line up a shot.

Now head back to your team mates and let them shoot him down while you drag him.

Pinker15
12-25-2005, 01:54 PM
LOL good advise to count on help of friends :P. This is propably only way but what to do when there are more spits in area or we are alone ?. Good advise from me is that "U can count, count on yourself" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Xiolablu3
12-25-2005, 03:16 PM
You could try and drag him to where there is AAA, such as your airfield, or back towards your own lines where you may be able to find players on your team.

Or a good tactic I sometimes use in a less manouvrable plane is to slam the throttle to 0% and put on combat flaps, pull up a little to slow down further and try to make him over shoot if you can. You may even be able to put the throttle back up, raise flaps and be on his tail. This has to be done carefully tho and takes a lot of practise, you can easily make yourself a sitting duck and this should only be used in a last resort when he is around 100-200m behind.

75% of the time you should ALWAYS dive as you need to try and get some speed to stop him closing so fast, or even start to pull away yourself. If you start to climb you are a sitting duck and he will have no trouble hitting you.

My favourite tactic is to dive straight down and back UNDER the attacking plane, this will make you a very hard target and may force him to disengage for a while until he lines himself up again, buying you time. Try this, it takes practise and you need at least 750m in height to do it, but its effective.

Remember - the closer you can drag him to your base, the more likely one of your teammates will appear. The longer you drag the fight out, the more likely a teammate is to appear.

A deflection shot is much harder when the shooter has to lead both X and Y axis, rather than just one of these. If you have to turn, try and pull up, or dive a little at the same time, never turn in a predictable arc.

Try and buy yourself time, while dragging him closer to your base.

Hope these tips help, you will learn your own and what works best from experience. But NEVER think you have to dogfight with a Spitfire, force him to fight on your terms, not his, that means speed and energy, using teamates well etc.

I learnt most of these tips from trying to fight Ki43 Oscars in Hurricanes on UKded1 server. If anyone from UKded1 is here they know what I am talkign about, its a lot harder than 109 vs Spitfire! Those Oscars can outturn AND outrun you.

Von_Rat
12-25-2005, 04:10 PM
spit on your 6, you split s, barrel roll, and run. whats the problem.

unless your low and slow, then scissor, call for help, and kick youself for getting low and slow.

dieg777
12-26-2005, 04:42 AM
A lot of this has been covered but here is advice I have picked up

1. if you can then you have to try to stay out of gun range- therefore get fast

2. If in gun range make shot as difficult as possible- if you have height split s and run
-if no height then break hard to turn and pull towards his wing- do not hold break turn as you are bleeding E- only enough to spoil shot then unload G and run.



3. try to make all turns and extends towards friends

4. learn your aircrafts strengths- use il2compaire to find out what speeds and heights are best.

http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_essential_files.htm#018

5. here are some other sources to read up

1) see FW tactics guide here- me 109 is similar type of plane and this is the type of info you should know about your plane

http://www.airwarfare.com/guides.htm

2) general advice here

http://airwarfare.com/mediawiki-1.4.5/index.php?title=Main_Page#Combat

3) general reading

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Tailspin/index.htm

yes there is a lot to pick up but every bit helps when online-

the best advice is to team up with someone using comms -

good luck

Xiolablu3
12-26-2005, 05:49 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
spit on your 6, you split s, barrel roll, and run. whats the problem.

unless your low and slow, then scissor, call for help, and kick youself for getting low and slow.

I never knew what a 'split S' was , but I see I describe the manouvre in my post above! (I just looked it up after reading your post)

Funny, I just found that a good manouvre for escaping an attacking plane, without ever realising it had a name!

Quoted from my post above - 'My favourite tactic is to dive straight down and back UNDER the attacking plane, this will make you a very hard target and may force him to disengage for a while until he lines himself up again, buying you time. Try this, it takes practise and you need at least 750m in height to do it, but its effective.'

Am I right in thinking that this is effectively a 'Split S'?

Kuna15
12-26-2005, 06:13 AM
http://142.26.194.131/aerodynamics1/Lift/graphics/Split-S.GIF
Split S, one of the most efficient evasive tactic.

Friendly_flyer
12-26-2005, 06:26 AM
So thats the infamous split-s! Just like Xiolablu3 I though I had invented it myself. I usually calls it ""inverted Immlemann".

F19_Ob
12-26-2005, 07:03 AM
I was testing the spit vs 109 with my brother Olli.
We are about equally skilled on most types so that way we knew it wouldn't be an uneven fight because of differences in skill.

We started with spit vb 1941 against 109 E7.
After some sorties we shifted planes and we continued to do that through the whole test.

Our findings was that the spit may flip (stall) dangerously if one pulls hard at all speeds, so one have to take that into consideration. It's possible to turn very tight int the spit when pulling carefully.

The 109E7 had no chance to attack a spit that was aware of him, and had also little chance to get away.
The reason why it can't disengage from the spit is that it loses speed if hit.
Even a few hits may cause some 30kph decrease in speed because of drag from the damage.

Also the bf 109 F4 had little chance against the early spit in a 'one vs one' situation although it turned better and was faster than the E variant.
The 109 G2 was the only one that could compete somewhat in a close in fight, in the vertical, because of its accelleration, and it could also extend and disengage because of it's speed.

This was the result for us, and as we see it an E or F variant of the 109 would have little chance if we were in spits and the reason is that we are used to shoot at distances beyond 500m, and as mentioned, only a few hits will reduce the little advantage of 30-40 kph that the 109 has.
This means that a 109 is dead meat as soon as it has taken some hit. (again in a 1 vs 1 scenario)

The 109G2 has a more distinct advantage in speed against the 1941 spit so it can get away even if it takes a few hits and it also can fight better in the vertical than the E and F wich is nescessary when fighting a spit.


Online I have seen more spits shooting down multiple 109's than the other way around.


a few thoughts http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Xiolablu3
12-26-2005, 07:22 AM
The thing is that you were fighting a 1941 (Spitfire Mk5) aircraft against a 1940 (109E4)

You should be using the 109F against the Spitfire 5 for equal timeframe. This a a very even fight, the Spit having slightly better turn and the 109F having better speed/climb.

EDIT: Sorry, I see you went onto later 109s after, ooops. Anyway, On the Malta map on UKdedicated1, the 109F4 has a 1.1 KD over the Spitfire Vb's 0.90. That is with thousands of dogfights as that map is the most played. If the 109F uses his advantages and doesnt turnfight, he has the advantage, the moment he starts to turn, the Spitfire has the advantage. If you are in the 109F4 resist the temptation to turn and be patient and you will win.


For the Guys above who said that the 109 was always faster than the Spitfire of the same year ... I found this page, read some of the quotes at the bottom from German AND Bristish pilots. Spitfire Mk9 vs 109G both from 1942.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html