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Drunken_Moose
04-12-2005, 11:58 AM
Bluntly put, that's my question.

I find it easier to escape enemies, gunning them down, etc.

Is this considered a uber plane that shouldn't be used if you're fair?

Drunken_Moose
04-12-2005, 11:58 AM
Bluntly put, that's my question.

I find it easier to escape enemies, gunning them down, etc.

Is this considered a uber plane that shouldn't be used if you're fair?

JG53Frankyboy
04-12-2005, 12:02 PM
no, there is mostly complaining about the Ki-84-Ic with its one hit wonders 30mm canons.

Drunken_Moose
04-12-2005, 12:06 PM
Ya... It's just unbeleivable the plane butchery I've been doing with those since I discovered it.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Daiichidoku
04-12-2005, 12:09 PM
Ki84 a good machine, great performer, tho probably catches fire TOO easily, as they had as good armor and fuel tank protection as any allied fighter

Frankyboy is right tho, the 1C model is a one hit wonder

I feel disdain for those who use this type meant for B 29 killing, that was made, if at all, in very few numbers...and it is uncertain if it EVER actually saw combat

can ANYone post how many finished examples were made, and if ANY ever saw combat?

Ki841As and 1Bs are ok though

using the 1C will just teach you bad habits...and IMHO, when ppl jump into 1Cs, they become boors, and never consider others, kill stealing, and the like...

RAF74_Poker
04-12-2005, 12:13 PM
If the plane is available in the planeset ... then fly the thing and to hell with the whiners.

All this Uber **** is just that ... a bunch of **** !
Any plane flown correctly is an uber plane.
I'll bet a good pilot in a Gladiator can shoot down a crappy pilot in a FW or a spit - would that make the J8A an uber plane ??

Fly what you want to fly ....
And more power to you for flying the Japanese planes on any server .. odds are usually stacked against you.

Atomic_Marten
04-12-2005, 12:14 PM
I found that plane to be excellent, mostly due to gunnery, but manouverability is also outstanding.. but has some nasty surprises of its own (compared to other planes) -- that regards wings, which usually break on high speed pullout.

Honestly excellent plane, and to get into debate KI84 v Spit v LA7 v.. is just matter of taste and habit.

But I don't really understand the question; why you should suck for using KI84? You can suck in handling the plane (combat), nothing else..

BTW I don't think of any prop.plane in game as uber. All of them can be shot down. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Drunken_Moose
04-12-2005, 12:25 PM
Why I ask the question? Because I got 100% better the minute I jumped in a Ki84-1C http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I'll try the less brutaly equipped models though as the handling is awesome and top speed is impressive.

DS-Turret
04-12-2005, 12:43 PM
From my book about Ki-84. Ki-841a was tested by the USAF in 1946 against P-51K & P-47N. Ki-841a performance was 2-3 mph faster than P-51K at all altitudes & could dive as good as P-47N. Ki-84-1a out turned P-51K & P-47N at all altitudes & at all speeds. The only draw back they could find on Ki-84-1a was that the self-sealing fuel tanks & armor protection wasn't as good as the P-51K & P-47N. Hell with the whiners because I believe the United States Air Force is more correct & have more knowledge about Ki-84's then what the stupid whiners have. Reguarding any other aircraft the United States Air Force is more correct & have more knowledge in their books then the stupid whiners here.

CAPT_COTTON
04-12-2005, 01:12 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif
You do not suck in your flying if your shooting down the other flyer ,cause thats what you trained for, and its the only reason you opened up the game up for. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gifSo what does uber stand for anyway? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

You dont fly full real all time you are uber

You dont belong to my squad you are uber

you dont fly at Hyper Lobby you are uber

your pings are higer than mine you are uber

you fly a custom skin you are uber

when the squad server pilots are shooting you on runways and you go shoot them you are uber

when you run for home outa ammo and five of them cant hit you and you land you are uber

when you fly into three of them alone and shoot them down then land you are uber and need to join there squad or kicked

you zip around and cant be hit you are uber

you fly planes better than them you uber

you complain in room you uber

you mispeel a word you uber

you change from spit to ki84 you uber

you dont agree with someone in forums and you uber

UBER=any word that is used to demean and run down someone so we can say we are better than thou! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

[most of all the uber words have been baned on here so i cant type them so you can see them ,but if you take that old nasty N word and put it in .you will know what uber means and who these people using it are] http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

As soon as everyone starts complaining are getting up set with these users of the word uber. it will be changed to another word,just hope it isnt Cotton he he http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

I am 62 and theres been lots of these words and you just keep flying and getting better and dont let these people stop you from haveing fun . http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I will always think it should have worked

murewa
04-12-2005, 01:21 PM
[QUOTE]
I'll bet a good pilot in a Gladiator can shoot down a crappy pilot in a FW or a spit
[QUOTE]

lol, the fw or spit pilot would have to be REALLY Balls, or the j8A pilot the hottest thing since sliced bread.

is it an "uber"plane? NO...doesn't exist

however its performance is probably one of the best in the game. with certainly the best armamnet.
there is nothing wrong with flying planes like KI-84, LA-7, Yak-3....but its just no fun, you learn terrible habbits by relying on having a better performing aircraft and your opponent just gets pissed with you for blasting him in spray'n'pray one hit wonders.

FLY OLDER AIRCRAFT, they are just MORE FUN! you will become a better pilot, whether you get shot down lots or not, learning more about different fighter types and how to use a kite's disadvantages and advantages correctly.then when you do take up a late war plane you will be able to totally and utterly pawn others in the same type, because the early aircraft have made you wary and more responsive.

Plus its way more rewarding to nail an opponent if you are in a technically inferior bird.personally I try only to fly in period or year specific servers, its just better than a LA-7 vs spitIXE vs 109K4 vs Ki84 t'n'b fest.

Jabberwocky_
04-12-2005, 01:39 PM
Hey Moose!

I found myself in a head-on with you the other night, in your Ki-84c on 334th. I was probably in a 'stang or Lav. Can't remember how that one ended but I recall several hairy engagements with you lately. Wicked fun!

see ya in 334th,

Cheers,

Jabberwocky

P.S. Switch to the P-11, Moose. Now that's an uber plane!

AFSG_Mshine
04-12-2005, 01:53 PM
What is UBER? I guess the best way to look at
it is, are you jumping into the 84's and flying
against a bunch of other guys flying other plane
which do not match the period or performance of
the 84.

Really the game host should handle this
situation, and if he is going to allow the 84 in
his games, then he should provide equal or at
least close in performance plane for both sides.

Some guys want to try the older maybe slower, or
less performing planes, but feel they cannot
because they won't last 5 seconds against a
pilot with even the most minimal skills in one
of the so called "UBER" planes.

I believe that if more hosts thought about what
they were allowing on their servers, you would
see less "Stupid Whiner's" as an above poster so
eliquently overuses.

BTW.. Repeatedly complaining about
"stupid whiners" is almost as annoying as seeing
the post from so called "Stupid Whiners." The
bitterness in the tone gives the impression
you've been booted from a lot of servers for
flying these so called UBER planes.

Try approaching the topic from a more positive
angle, offering a different opinion, instead of
blasting some obviously frustrated newbies or
pilots lacking the skills.

These type of replies do nothing more than take up space

lrrp22
04-12-2005, 02:32 PM
Turret,

Most of what is written in the various books regarding the Ki-84 being tested in 1946 is incorrect. There never were formal comparitive trials held between the Frank and the P-51D/K/H and/or P-47D/N made during 1946. About the only thing we know is that some informal familiarization flights were flown which revealed a very unreliable engine. The claims of a 2-3 mph speed advantage are based on fairly optimistic U.S. estimates of performance put together in late '44/early '45. They are not based on performance tests or comparisons.

Having said that, I don't think anyone is a 'noob' for flying this fine airplane online.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DS-Turret:
From my book about Ki-84. Ki-841a was tested by the USAF in 1946 against P-51K & P-47N. Ki-841a performance was 2-3 mph faster than P-51K at all altitudes & could dive as good as P-47N. Ki-84-1a out turned P-51K & P-47N at all altitudes & at all speeds. The only draw back they could find on Ki-84-1a was that the self-sealing fuel tanks & armor protection wasn't as good as the P-51K & P-47N. Hell with the whiners because I believe the United States Air Force is more correct & have more knowledge about Ki-84's then what the stupid whiners have. Reguarding any other aircraft the United States Air Force is more correct & have more knowledge in their books then the stupid whiners here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FoolTrottel
04-12-2005, 02:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
(...)

can ANYone post how many finished examples were made, and if ANY ever saw combat?

(...) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/KI84-01.jpg

Got it from this (12 paged booklet):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/KI84-03.jpg

FoolTrottel
04-12-2005, 03:08 PM
Combat reference:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/KI84-04.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/KI84-05.jpg

Drunken_Moose
04-12-2005, 03:22 PM
Thanks for the replies guys!

And yea, Jabberwocky, I'm sure we'll meet again on 334th http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
04-12-2005, 03:54 PM
Common complaint about the Ki-84C is the wingmounted 30mms will often cause a lag spike for many when fired apon. It has happend to me before but not all that often. If the host has it in the mission then fly it if you like. If you feel ashamed about flying then dont fly it. Thats about all I can tell you. If you have any question about how good of plane it is in this sim check to see how many are flying it when its available. More then likely half the room will be in it. And then you have airquake with photon lasers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Like all other planes in the game it has weakness and can be dealt with using proper tactics. You will never see me in one though...I prefer challenging planes, but thats just me. Although at times you will see me in a Spit and we all know what the luftlovers think of that plane. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

crazyivan1970
04-12-2005, 03:58 PM
Don`t listen to Havok... he can`t even get off teh ground http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fly what you want mate. There is no need for approval http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

tigertalon
04-12-2005, 05:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74_Poker:
Any plane flown correctly is an uber plane.
I'll bet a good pilot in a Gladiator can shoot down a crappy pilot in a FW or a spit - would that make the J8A an uber plane ??
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol, happened to me some time ago, I got 2 La7s and 1 Yak3 with Glad in a single sortie... They tried to outturn me!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

And then, exactly like you said, they complained how J8A is overmodelled! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

tigertalon
04-12-2005, 05:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Although at times you will see me in a Spit and we all know what the luftlovers think of that plane. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea, I pitty them, when I see them trying to catch my 190 in a dive or in level flight... And climb with me at 500+kph... And they make a nice fireworks after a close encounter with my 30mm ... Nice, cute planes, those spitties, indeed! Bring more of them!


Unedited shot from some time ago:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/Fw190A6vSpitIXeHF.jpg

EnGaurde
04-12-2005, 06:14 PM
no you dont suck.

its just hysterical bullshet conjured up by the most likely 10 to 15 yr old age group that refuses to believe they can lose to a Japanese aircraft.

unfortunately this game is plagued by childishness, immaturity.... just look at the content of the average post on this forum, and youll see what i mean.

the ki84 addressed the speed, toughenss and maneouverabiity issues of japanese aircraft. What a surprise the immautre faction of the online PF community cant stand to be beaten.... look in any schoolyard and see what happens:

"i got you"

"did not! you cheated! not fair! I'm telling"

it really is that simple. I truly believe all this prejudice against the hayate comes from kids who dont like losing, and grew from there. clearly, japanese aircraft cannot destroy allied aircraft with the same amount of ease. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

its just so laughable, people fly fast, tough, well armed allied aircraft and dont bat an eyelid.

if you fly fast, well armed japanese aircraft, you're branded a cheat by the Lord of The FLies cast.

apparently the only fast, dangerous aircraft can have an allied stamp on it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

fly it, revell in its abilities. At the same time if you think you're invincible, you'll soon be proven wrong by any well flown spit, stang or jug.

i just dont see a problem.

all i see is the red faced, foot stamping screaming whines of too many snot nosed kids.

JunkoIfurita
04-12-2005, 07:09 PM
I fly Japanese aircraft wherever possible online, and while I stick to the Zeros, Oscars and early Tonies this has more to do with my preference for early/mid war aircraft than anything else.

The Hayate is a fine aircraft, no mistake. Beautiful inside and out. It is true the the C model is an overkill for a dogfight: it was a B29 interceptor, rarely used (and never used to combat fighters). But if the server adds it to the plane list, you can't be faulted for flying it.

Mind you, I tend to avoid 334th for this reason: I prefer a restricted planeset (3 or 4 planes for each side), as it tends to attract thinking pilots and pilots who are more likely to concentrate on the mission than muck around grubbing for 'points'. 334th is a great server if you're up for a quick rumble, but that's about it.

----

Daiichidoku
04-12-2005, 07:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FoolTrottel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
(...)

can ANYone post how many finished examples were made, and if ANY ever saw combat?

(...) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/KI84-01.jpg

Got it from this (12 paged booklet):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/KI84-03.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Thank you, FoolTrottel...

however...

I was actually referring to the ki841C in particular

it is common knowledge that Hayates were used in numbers, from many bases in PTO, and the Home Islands...but those were Ki841As and 1Bs...

What I would LOVE to see is hard numbers for Ki841C production....and ANYthing to do with any combat it may have seen

EnGaurde
04-12-2005, 07:40 PM
balance.

this is the problem.

real life, often does not give one iota of concern for balance.... you think the salmon thinks its fair and balanced for the grizzly to wait at narrow points in the stream, and eat it as it jumps out of the water? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

wheres the fairness there?

balance is hotly debated in many games.... no singular part of whats recognised as a good game is allowed to be too strong or too effective.

where the conflict comes for me, is that all the kids that dont want anyone else having any advantages, scream loud and long when this balance concept im trying to describe is clearly against them, due to real life capabilities of aircraft having nothing to do with balancing their opponents or the aircraft they choose to fly, at all.

if a sim is supposed to be realistic, balance cannot be allowed into the equation. Children, subsequently whack a uber description on this plane and actively scorn others who fly it as a legitimate aircraft.

do you think supermarine toned down their spitfire variants to be closely matched to the fw190???

you think that a desperate japan toned down their hayate variants to make sure there was not too much imbalance against allied aircraft???

yet what do we see here.... screaming tantrums when something is clearly superior to something else. Something japanese, that is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

as for the armament question.... axis aircraft carry all manner of heavy cannon, ie fw190 variants that can swap outboard 20mm for 30mm.
Nobody complains about that.

there is a truckload of prejudice against japanese aircraft, mostly the hayate. If the sim is to be truly real, then this difference should be worshipped as a unique component to describing real air combat, not actively fought against and ridiculed.

games are balanced.

sims are not. Can not be.

Badsight.
04-12-2005, 10:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CAPT_COTTON:
UBER=any word that is used to demean and run down someone so we can say we are better than thou! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>uber , in relation to combat Flight Sims , means plane performance better than its RL counterpart

& yes , Hayates were nothing special when it came to Armour

there is NO reason for them to be as hard to bust apart as they are , they had more armour than Zekes , thats a fact -- but it wasnt much . they were not "Heavily" armoured at all like Hellcats or Corsairs were

conversly , they suffer terribly from any hits at all -- their performance goes out the window

the Ki-84 Hayate , easy to hurt & burn , hard to blow up

Badsight.
04-12-2005, 10:36 PM
as a CFS player , im out for one pass kills

i dont like to have the person i just landed hits on doing anything apart form blowing up completely or falling to earth as a flaming wreck

people who are fired upon want the chance for revenge , they do not want to be wasted with ease , the bandit must pay for firing upon me

cannon let me have the former & deny the latter

people dont like planes that kill quick , planes that allow you to totally cripple suffer major abuse

because people on the recieveing end get fed up with it , as in get fed up with being wasted

personally , i love cannon & loath MG's

HotelBushranger
04-12-2005, 11:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'll bet a good pilot in a Gladiator can shoot down a crappy pilot in a FW or a spit <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How bout a Falco downing a 109? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


As to the Ki-84, my opinion is that whilst you may not be a noob or anything for flying it, but it takes more skill to fly and get kills with earlier, supposed "cr@planes". I fly them more than the late models and do just as well.

I don't mind if you fly the 84, but just don't fly it all the time.

JunkoIfurita
04-12-2005, 11:39 PM
Heh heh, my proudest moment was downing 3 109Es in one sortie in my trusty flying lawnmower (P11c).

It was on GreaterGreen, I think, running an 'Invasion of Poland' mission.

I mean, I'm not going to take any credit for skill or anything http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif The **** 109 pilots tried to turn fight me! When they were almost four times my speed!

Now I just wish I could survive against everyone else ^_^

----

-HH-Quazi
04-12-2005, 11:42 PM
I remember a time on these boards that if someone started a thread with this topic, 6 out of 10 people responding would be flaming the thread starter and calling him childish names for flying an ac like the Ki-84. All I have seen in this thread is support for the m8. This communtiy is really showing a tightness of sorts. It's so cool imo. I guess being around long nough to remember the whack times is making me appreciate this community more. Especially when this type of support is shown. You guys are alright. Thanks to all of you.

WTE_Dukayn
04-13-2005, 12:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
I don't mind if you fly the 84, but just don't fly it _all_ the time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I bet no-one says that to Spit flyers. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

HotelBushranger
04-13-2005, 12:15 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Then again, Spits are easy to shoot down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Te_Vigo
04-13-2005, 12:57 AM
I might add to this with:
The Ki-84 ended up being stationed in The Phillipines (the 1a starting out in China) and this is where their troubles began.
The planes required specialised maintenance because of the engine they ran with. The lack of the specialised maintenance required because of resources, skilled engineers, deteriorating quality control, etc, lead to a severe deterioration of the plane's performance. The pilots of these planes never knew how the planes would perform form one flight to the next, if the brakes would work, or even if they get to altitude to deal with the B29's.
The landing gear of these beasts was from the drawing designed to be high tempered. During manufacture on the production line this tempering was not used, which meant that the planes had a major problem with landing ending quite often with the gear snapping off.

At least that's what my ref book says.
(Fighting Aircraft of WWII - Bill Gunston)

Looking ahead, the Ki-100 (which would have devastated The US aircraft) had only about 350 units made and these became available just before the Japanese surrender.

Personally I don't mind people using them ingame but they were a special use weapon and are 1 hit wonders.

EnGaurde
04-13-2005, 12:58 AM
im actually of the mind that should i prefer allied airraft ie stang / jug / spit etc, i'd be actively seeking out ki84 b and c version servers.

a worthy opponent is the reason.

make me fly my mount better than before, to avoid being quickly destroyed.

i mean, anyone can cruise thru a server plugging lesser planes, but you dont see too many taking on faster / tighter aircraft.

seems everyone wants easy kills. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I know i dont like fighting hellcats in the ki84, as to me its just too easy. I can run em down, turn inside em, climb past them and dive with them.

hunting jugs and spits, though, now thats a challenge. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

EJGrOst_Caspar
04-13-2005, 02:10 AM
It would be interesting to have a fighter duel comparison between Ki-84C and La7 (3x20mm). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ImpStarDuece
04-13-2005, 04:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by murewa:
[QUOTE]
I'll bet a good pilot in a Gladiator can shoot down a crappy pilot in a FW or a spit
[QUOTE]

lol, the fw or spit pilot would have to be REALLY Balls, or the j8A pilot the hottest thing since sliced bread.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have BOUNCED FW 190 pilots in a Gladiator and shot them down! Its kind of fun. In fact, when I used to fly Trollville 2.04 I saw Gladiators shoot down EVERYTHING. Ki-84s, 109K, Spitfire Vs even jets and those rocket powered trouser trout extenders.

Mostly the opponents were either
A) overconfident
B) Lazy
C) new players
D) 'frickn morons (No, no, no! DONT try and turn with me! Oh well!), or
E) laughing so hard that they couldn't fly properly.

People do the same thing against the Ki-43, they SERIOUSLY underestimate it and end up being shot down (although rather slowly admittedly).

ImpStarDuece
04-13-2005, 04:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Te_Vigo:


Looking ahead, the Ki-100 (which would have devastated The US aircraft) had only about 350 units made and these became available just before the Japanese surrender.

Personally I don't mind people using them ingame but they were a special use weapon and are 1 hit wonders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I doubt that the Ki-100 would of really done that much to the Allies, even if it was available in numbers. The reasons; lack of speed, lack of high altitude performance.

When your main threat is escorted B-29s at 30,000 feet, with P-51Ds and P-47Ds cruising at 33-35,000 feet a classic style dogfighter isn't really the answer to your problem. What you need is more of a Fw-190D style of thing; fast, reasonable fire power, good dive, good at high speed, very good at higher altitude.

Sure its a nice handling fighter but when you look into the numbers, even if add 10-15% for the emergency overboost, its still well outperformed above 6000m by the Corsair, P-38, P-47 and P-51. Going on the basic numers (spped at sea level and critical alt, roll rate and sustained turn) there actually isn't that much to split it from the late model P-40s!

WOLFMondo
04-13-2005, 05:04 AM
Go ahead and fly it. If people call you a n00b for flying it say 'thanks' then shoot them down.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daiichidoku:

Frankyboy is right tho, the 1C model is a one hit wonder
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its no different from a 190A9 with 108's. So whats the problem?

I refuse to belive the cause a lag spike as in a problem with net code. There like the 108's, when they strike the ground they cause an big explosion which causes those with lesser GFX cards to loose frames.

-HH- Beebop
04-13-2005, 05:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnGaurde:
balance.

this is the problem.

real life, often does not give one iota of concern for balance.... you think the salmon thinks its fair and balanced for the grizzly to wait at narrow points in the stream, and eat it as it jumps out of the water? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

wheres the fairness there?

balance is hotly debated in many games.... no singular part of whats recognised as a good game is allowed to be too strong or too effective.

where the conflict comes for me, is that all the kids that dont want anyone else having any advantages, scream loud and long when this balance concept im trying to describe is clearly against them, due to real life capabilities of aircraft having nothing to do with balancing their opponents or the aircraft they choose to fly, at all.

if a sim is supposed to be realistic, balance cannot be allowed into the equation. Children, subsequently whack a uber description on this plane and actively scorn others who fly it as a legitimate aircraft.

do you think supermarine toned down their spitfire variants to be closely matched to the fw190???

you think that a desperate japan toned down their hayate variants to make sure there was not too much imbalance against allied aircraft???

yet what do we see here.... screaming tantrums when something is clearly superior to something else. Something japanese, that is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

as for the armament question.... axis aircraft carry all manner of heavy cannon, ie fw190 variants that can swap outboard 20mm for 30mm.
Nobody complains about that.

there is a truckload of prejudice against japanese aircraft, mostly the hayate. If the sim is to be truly real, then this difference should be worshipped as a unique component to describing real air combat, not actively fought against and ridiculed.

games are balanced.

sims are not. Can not be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said! I'm in total agreement. War is not about balance, it's about superiority. The most unrealistic thing about this sim is the ability to put Luft '46 planes and cr@p planes in the same arena. But bless Oleg anyway for making it possible for those who wish to.
I guess it comes down to don't fly on a server that doesn't meet your personal tastes and don't complain if your shot down by a superior pilot or if a n00b shoots you, an experieced pilot, down. It happend all the time in WWII.

DarthBane_
04-13-2005, 06:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EJGrOst_Caspar:
It would be interesting to have a fighter duel comparison between Ki-84C and La7 (3x20mm). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In 1 on 1 ki dont stand chance against la7.
It can outrun spits but cannot win close dogfight. Some people do incredible in 109 but luckily they are rare.
Easiest dogfighters are:
spit9
la7
ki and 109(has cripled controls since last patches).
I have big hopes in ki100.

stef51
04-13-2005, 08:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Drunken_Moose:
Bluntly put, that's my question.

I find it easier to escape enemies, gunning them down, etc.

Is this considered a uber plane that shouldn't be used if you're fair? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, in itself it's a very good question. However, only you should decide. The best question is something like why do I want to play online or offline. If it's for fun, then obviously fly a plane you have fun with. If it's the plane that matters then be prepared for some nasty surprises. I fly a lot of bombers online and if the server allows the 84 or 190, then I'm pretty sure that's what I'll be against. Why do they choose those planes is something I can't figure out and I don't want to or need too.

Of course, if the guy boosts his ego on the chat bar while flying a KI-84 for example after shooting me in a JU87 for example, then I'll be a little annoyed.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The worst would be a Salute after shooting me with a 109K4 with 30mms gunpods..., don't be so proud of that accomplishment... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Above all, it's never a bad thing to try the best planes for learning and then try the more difficult ones, you may like them better and more important, you will learn faster. I managed once to evade attacks 3 times from 2 190 and a 109 with a hurricane. I was very happy with my performance after flying the hurri for so long. Improving your flying skill is very rewarding and flying all kinds of planes add to the fun too. But if you love only one plane and is not interested in trying anything else, it's ok too, as long as you're not forced to fly a particular plane due to server choices for example.

Now, why servers don't include planes like the ME-323, I'd love to fly that thing online.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Stephen

ZG77_Nagual
04-13-2005, 08:32 AM
Absolutely - you do suck. Go with it dude!

I used to fly the 190 but now everybody and their twisted uncle are on about how they've mastered the freakin 190. 'Boom and Zoom' they say!. Talk to me when you can dogfight in it too.

I've had to switch to the P38, the 190 neighborhood has gone to ****. Think their the flippin Elite of the Simm.

Against ki84s I like the p38 or p39. Though I've had some great fights against them in Beaufighters as well. Plan ahead a little and the beauf can take care of herself!

I flew a ki once against a really good ki pilot. I was having a helluva time with him so I grabbed another ki and we fought till we were both basically gimpin in ground effect and it took all our concentration just to stay airborn.

Trouble with the KI is it's such a great plane at everything that you don't really have to get good to win against most opponents. The 30mms are just silly and were not that widespread - I ban that one, the other two are fine.

Clan_Graham
04-13-2005, 09:24 AM
The other night I was up in a Brewster and I got jumped by a Ki-84 and a 190 (never did manage to see which type of 190 it was)
Anyway, I got very lucky (I'm not that good in a Brewster)and downed the Ki-84 after he tried to turn with me and got low and slow.
I managed to get the 190 smoking (he gave me a fuel leak) and he ran for home as did I.
On the way back the 190 crashed.
The 190 pilot messaged, "Brewsters are for n00bs who can't turn."
Then the Ki-84 pilot came in with, "Flying a Brewster is like cheating".

I replied..."Thanks for the points, guys."

ZG77_Nagual
04-13-2005, 10:34 AM
No doubt your opponents were unmanned by the sheer humility of flying a brewster. Well done!

Te_Vigo
04-13-2005, 10:35 AM
ImpStarDuece

a read for you on the Ki-100 and for others who might.
It is a bit long to post here and is slightly OT
(apologies in advance if I'm hijacking a thread)

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ki100.html

FoolTrottel
04-13-2005, 11:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FoolTrottel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
(...)

can ANYone post how many finished examples were made, and if ANY ever saw combat?

(...) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got it from this (12 paged booklet):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/KI84-03.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Thank you, FoolTrottel...

however...

I was actually referring to the ki841C in particular

it is common knowledge that Hayates were used in numbers, from many bases in PTO, and the Home Islands...but those were Ki841As and 1Bs...

What I would LOVE to see is hard numbers for Ki841C production....and ANYthing to do with any combat it may have seen <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, the 1C only (I should learn to READ first...then POST...;-)

Hard numbers? Don't really have 'm...
(Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War II (Volume reproduced from 1945/6 edition) doesn't even mention the Ic at all...)
This is what that Aircraft Profile says 'bout Ic:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/KI84-06.jpg

EnGaurde
04-13-2005, 06:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The 190 pilot messaged, "Brewsters are for n00bs who can't turn."
Then the Ki-84 pilot came in with, "Flying a Brewster is like cheating".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and herein, lies the classic example of the childish horsesh!te that infects PF.

those kids should have been in bed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Trouble with the KI is it's such a great plane at everything that you don't really have to get good to win against most opponents. The 30mms are just silly and were not that widespread - I ban that one, the other two are fine.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

heres that balance issue everyone takes for granted.

a truly great sim, will never be balanced; due to its accuracy. Comments like this dont belong in simulations, only strategy games like Empire Earth or C&C.

yet they persist.

you cant scream realism on one hand and balance on the other. Reality, or the closest imitation of, isnt balanced. Either its a game, or a sim.

its just so stupid to chop and change and invalidate one aircraft due to its inherit abilities (but not others), as to be teeth grindingly frustrating. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Daiichidoku
04-13-2005, 10:16 PM
please...the Ki84 ( note that I am specifically reffering to the 1C model) is as valid in this sim as the 109Z, I-185, Mig3U, Go 229, or any other type that saw no combat, never flew, or were built in numbers that one could count with both hands

EnGaurde
04-13-2005, 11:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> is as valid in this sim as the 109Z, I-185, Mig3U, Go 229 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that seems a little thin, seeing the ki84c is like any other ki84, only with big guns... hardly a complete redesign like the go229 or the 109Z. Or doesnt that matter.... or make sense.... or suit the anti high performance japanese aircraft lobby? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

remarkable, truly remarkable you could think its primary design was so radical that it deserved to be put next to such types. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

but then again, prejudice smeared wih a thin disguise of horribly flawed reason, is still prejudice.

if you're going to kill it on such piddling little myopic differences as armament, then ban the fw190 with its 30mm variant.

one thing remains clear: fast, dangerous japanese planes have no place in PF if certain factions are to be listened to.

Daiichidoku
04-14-2005, 12:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnGaurde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> is as valid in this sim as the 109Z, I-185, Mig3U, Go 229 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hardly a complete redesign like the go229 or the 109Z.

the go 229 was an original design, evolved from earier test models, NOT a redesign...the 109Z was hardly a redesign, but more or less a chop job

remarkable, truly remarkable you could think its primary design was so radical that it deserved to be put next to such types. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I NEVER said it was radical...remarkable, truly remarkable, that YOU would might think thats what I meant, given some of the examples I listed are NOT radical in the slightest, like the Mig 3U....but I guess your being selective

but then again, prejudice smeared wih a thin disguise of horribly flawed reason, is still prejudice.

if you're going to kill it on such piddling little myopic differences as armament, then ban the fw190 with its 30mm variant.

why? how many 190s with 30mm guns were made?...bet a helluva lot more than Ki841Cs, which the only published source I have ever read, including one in this thread, states "a few made"

one thing remains clear: fast, dangerous japanese planes have no place in PF if certain factions are to be listened to.

silly rabbit, trix are for kids!...ALL JP types, excepting maybe the Ki46III Dinahs are dangerous...and many are fast as well....even zeros are fast, put into a 1941 context <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


if you think JP types need the ki84C to be fast and dangerous, then you dont know how to fly JP types

Im NOT for keeping JP types down...I luv em!,,,hell, I wish we had Glens!...

you want fast and dangerous? how about some flyable Ki44s?...prob about 300 times more of those made than any ki84C


AFAIK, there is NO "anti hi perf JP a.c. lobby"....unclench, man....

if anything, Im "anti insignificant/noncombat/low production/post-war type lobby

hey, as much as id LUV to fly a shinden, I most certainly DONT want it in FB, where it would pollute servers, much like the ki84C did, until most hosst came to thier senses

Daiichidoku
04-14-2005, 12:28 AM
oh yeah, add the POST-war Yak 3P to that "not valid" list as well...**** things NEVEr saw WWII combat

Daiichidoku
04-14-2005, 12:30 AM
oh yeah, one more thing...if ya cant get the job done with the Ki84B, which is quite deadly in its own, then give up

EnGaurde
04-14-2005, 12:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> silly rabbit <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no you cant have it back... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

dont.... dont believe the hype. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Badsight.
04-14-2005, 12:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
hey, as much as id LUV to fly a shinden, I most certainly DONT want it in FB, where it would pollute servers, much like the ki84C did, until most hosst came to thier senses <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>thats the whole point

theres no need to be against a plane being included into this game

Daiichidoku
04-14-2005, 01:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
hey, as much as id LUV to fly a shinden, I most certainly DONT want it in FB, where it would pollute servers, much like the ki84C did, until most hosst came to thier senses <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>thats the whole point

theres no need to be against a plane being included into this game <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so....would that include something extreme, like, say, having F 15s aloneside G50s?

gotta draw the line somewhere..
for me, personally, wether anyone agrees or not, that line is: saw combat from 1932-ish - VJ day, AND were produced in at LEAST quantity enough to eq a full squadron


and the Yak 3P, I 185, Ki841C, 109Z, Go 229, Mig 3U, B1, YP-80, Me2621a-U4 and more do NOT qualify this way...

thats at LEAST 9 types that, by some degree or another, took time and effort to put into code, etc into the game, one way or another, time and effort that COULD have been put into far more "valid" types, no?

Badsight.
04-14-2005, 03:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>so....would that include something extreme, like, say, having F 15s aloneside G50s? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>wow , feel clever ?

the line was drawn before you formed your opinion

before FB was released , anything made up till 1946 is acceptable . the original add-on for FB actually was going to be "Luft46"

this changed with PF's release & the possibility of seeing the F5U & F8F & (Grrrr) Shinden

Ki-84C's were made before the wars end , just like the Bearcat they are a WW2 plane

Daiichidoku
04-14-2005, 10:47 AM
if the bearcats a WWII plane, then so is the skyraider

and the SM mk 24 spit

and the F7F

and the F 84 thunderjet

and the straight wing NA fury

and the DH 108 hornet

and the DH vampire

etc etc

I wouldnt mind a "46" thing....and believe me, i would luv to fly a shinden as much as you...

but if its gonna be a 46 thing, make as such, dont package it in a WWII context, yknow?

too many ppl put 109Zs or yak3Ps in a server, or fly them, thinking this is the stuff that pilots flew, fought and died in DURING the war

prob the 46 cutoff date was so the Russian types that actually could compete could get in http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

stef51
04-14-2005, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daiichidoku:


too many ppl put 109Zs or yak3Ps in a server, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That in my opinion is more the problem than what kind of planes we have. There are many reasons why they were modelled and we can't do a thing about it. What we can do is restrict them on the servers. Although this is the case actually, sometimes you love a server but people fly those planes so you're kinda stuck...

Stephen

Badsight.
04-14-2005, 10:38 PM
Daiichidoku , answer yourself this

when was the F8F designed ?

when was the F8F constructed ?

when was the F8F tested/developed/flowen first ?

when did the F8F roll off the production line ?

when was the F8F put into squadron service ?

the answer to all of the above questions is DURING WW2 . if that doesnt qualify a plane as WW2 vintage then your definitions need redefining

the fact that it didnt meet any Bandits in the air while the war was still on means nothing compared to the above

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>too many ppl put 109Zs or yak3Ps in a server, or fly them, thinking this is the stuff that pilots flew, fought and died in DURING the war <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>thats bull & you know it , its HARD to find those online , the Game isnt a History lesson , its a GAME , & its NEVER been claimed to be limited to the WW2 finishing dates. if you thought it was then its your impression only because nothing of the sort has ever been posted by maddox Games employees at all

the only reason i see that they didnt include the late war Grummans is for balance between the sides in performance strength , BTW , i dont know where your getting that the Yak-3P didnt fly during WW2 , it did

theres even more awesome Yak-3s than that even that flew during WW2

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but if its gonna be a 46 thing, make as such, dont package it in a WWII context, yknow? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
the 1946 bias is so old its not funny , it has no basis for existing in this game . the name given to the original add-on project was exactly that : " Luft 46 " , who knows what it would have been called if it ever carried on , it kinda went sideways after il2center.com got hacked & defaced

Siwarrior
04-16-2005, 01:20 AM
I have only one thing to say about Ki-84lcs
: They P*ss me off lots,
but thats the fun part.

HotelBushranger
04-16-2005, 03:56 AM
Flying on a server last night, bl00dy filled with em. When I'd convinced most of the players to fly 40/41 aircraft, there was still one who flew the 84C and wouldn't respond to my frequent requests (requests, right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)

Those sorta people p!ss me off, don't fly anything other than the best aircraft.

Still, makes it even more satisfying when you down them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

EnGaurde
04-16-2005, 05:37 AM
...and yet nobody complains about the sky being full of corsairs, mustangs and thunderbolts, easily every bit as dangerous. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

if the servers werent (boringly) full of amerifans flying all their armoured allied speedsters, (and thus making it alright to dominate servers in superior allied aircraft as everyone else is flying one) this argument would be written off as the stupid senseless exercise in childish Not Fair-ness that it blatantly is.

what it boils down to, its hated for its 30mils. Or more so how they remove the advantage of allied durability. Suddenly the allied flyer knows what its like to die from a single burst.... im not a good enough flyer to exploit the Ki84Cs weaknesses, i die too quickly and i dont like that because i'm used to annihilating other people, therefore you are cheating flying it. So there. Nyaah nyaah. Mummy, my chocolate milks empty, get me more!

i reckon half the people here only adopted this prejudice against the Ki84C, when they saw everybody else hate it and adopted some ridiculous line of reasoning as a basis. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

kangaroo courts are alive and well, i see. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

quick everyone, theres still room on the bandwagon....

Siwarrior
04-17-2005, 12:10 AM
Another thing that annoys me about Ki-84LCs
is that on unlimited ammo servers people just spray and pray and it causes alot of lag.

HotelBushranger
04-17-2005, 02:51 AM
Unfortunately, EnGuarde has a point. There are a lot of good allied aircraft. However, I think the reason people have got something agaisnt the Ki-84 the most is that the difference that makes it superior is a BIG difference, not just little adjustments like you would get with German/Allied aircraft progressing in the years.

shrike_426
04-17-2005, 04:46 AM
Maybe its me but i don't see what the fuss is about. So hes got 30mil cannons, okay i admit these things tend to be capable of shredding most armour, but then thats what there designed for. Histroically both the zero and the KI-43s (due to comabt flaps) boasted higher perforamce at lower altitude than most of the allied aircraft. However as the war dragged on there lack of armour and self sealing tanks began to tell gainst them. The Ki-84 has more arnoument than a Ki-43, but still lacks armour, and losted some of it manovrablilty with addition of heavier weapons, the orignal Ki-43 only having machine guns.
Now put this in conetext, the reason people don't like aircraft on servers is they are either wo powerfull, the only aircraft of this descripton are, ME109s armed with 109 gun pods. These weapons where histroically expensive, and fireing anti armour guns at people really isn't fair, one shot kills is all it requires to kill somebody. You can get away with it on servers hosting limited, amuniton, 109 gunpods get only about 100-200rnds.
The other dislike, of aircraft is because people tend to be childish. If i get beaten, then im beaten, on ocassions, i have even congratulaetd my killers, as there show of skill was damed impresive, but i don't ever walk away shouting "cheat". The Ki-84 evens combat up, Corsairs v Ki84s are perfect matches neither, has an armour bonus against each other any more, they boast similar flight charetrisitcs and its now based on skill and a little bit of luck. So if people want to play with an aircaft be my guest, ill play you any day, me in my Wildcat. Who ever said you can't teach old dogs new tricks never flew a Wildcat.

Badsight.
04-17-2005, 06:12 AM
it feels like the C model is even more armoured than the A or B models

there is no reason the Ki-84 should be as well armoured as it is

i know it suffers real bad from wing hits , but damm that C model is hard to bust open

HotelBushranger
04-17-2005, 07:11 AM
Well I dunno. I don't think I've ever versed an 84 in 43+ aircraft. But they are easy to see alight, provided you've got the right ammunition. 303's did it for me

EnGaurde
04-17-2005, 08:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> and fireing anti armour guns at people really isn't fair, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i recall that ze jarmans had all manner of anti armour ammo to put in their 20mm.

US .50 cals had armour piercing incendiary almost as standard?

saying the 30mm is anti armour, may well be correct, though, again, when you compare this to existing, accepted aircraft and their bog standard anti armour.... not a leg to stand on.

unless japanese armour piercing is "unfair" compared to american armour piercing? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Hmmm actually that would follow on a hell of a lot of what i see posted here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

everyone seems to forget, when arguing over guns, is that that 30mm shell is a dog to shoot at aircraft. Its drop is immense, its rate is slow, you literally have to lob it at aircraft. Theres no close to 500m and hose for 5 seconds. Its much, MUCH harder to kill something in a C then it is a jug. But, clearly that doesnt suit the majority to consider. Especially the dozens that fly Jugs. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

look in the aircraft viewer. The ki84C is actually a couple of hundredd kilos heavier than the A model. This usually means less climb, less acceleration, slower rolls, less crisp performance etc etc... not to mention a mere handful of rounds for those 30 mm and that it burns like a baarstard. Woooo.... UB3R !!!

god forbid i start a new anti ki84 cult following, but the ki84b is the plane to hate.... ill bet noones ever actually bothered to consider why. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> really isn't fair <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*sigh*

this is supposed to be an accurate simulation. To my understanding, fairness, is so subjective to be utterly utterly against a serious sims design parameters. Are we playing a game or flying a sim???? WTF does "fair" have to do with representing aircraft capabilities???????

Period scenarios would take care of this concept, which means the Ki84C is perfectly legit against similar year aircraft. Flying a ki84c against a wildcat is every bit as stupid as a mustang against a a6m2-21.

wtf is the problem with people, seemingly unable to understand the idea expressed by that last sentence??? why does everyone just ignore it????? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Its like they hear ki84 and instantly, jam their hands over their ears, close their eyes and start singing "...la la la i cant hear you" over and over again....

... but who am I.... one mans truth can never prevail against the established ignorance and accepted prejudiced urban legends of the masses. (eg its better to read that the 600 died in the Valley of Death, rather than the real story of 450 odd survivors, stupid ego driven commanders, and a hopeless communication breakdown. )

never let the truth get in the way of a good, in this case, bias. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Tailgator
04-17-2005, 09:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Drunken_Moose:
Bluntly put, that's my question.

I find it easier to escape enemies, gunning them down, etc.

Is this considered a uber plane that shouldn't be used if you're fair? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.bastard.is/sw-1337.wmv

HotelBushranger
04-17-2005, 09:33 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif A mate showed me that a couple of weeks a guy, makes me p!ss with laughter http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
04-17-2005, 01:21 PM
If I see a 1C availabe, I deliberately fly it just to wind people up.

The whole '84C bias thing had the same net result as when the crybabies yelled that the 262 caused lag because of the smoke trails; you don't see them on servers anymore.

So what if the 1C has some heavy weaponry; the 190A9 does, too, and that isn't banned. Claims about it's DM pale into insignificance for me especially when no one worries about the Lagg3 and it's 'special simplified DM'. Why one plane and not another?

I think a lot of it has to do with the Japanese actually having a very good end of war plane that just isn't easy to deal with.

Norris

raisen
04-17-2005, 04:08 PM
As has been pointed out extensively in this thread, I feel that the Ki84 gives those of us who usually fly axis an opportunity to compete on level terms.

The traditional huge hordes of P 38/47/51 boom and zoom jockeys get a taste of what the axis jocks have been getting - live with it, why should the allies have all the fun, all of the time. If you are one of the aforementioned honourable allied airmen, then live with the risk that tasty appealing target may just have designs on your hide...

Remember that those P38/47/51's (well flown ones anyhow) have been more or less completely uncatchable in anything japanese in particular, but in more or less everything axis - bar late, late model FW's.

As for causing lag spikes, I suspect that where servers allow infinite ammo, any and everyone "spraying and praying" will do so just the same.... I'm willing to accept that it may just be a peculiarity of this aircraft, but I rather doubt it.

A japanese aircraft to fear.... Not before time. Those guns don't have a huge rate of fire, neither do they have a flat trajectory - scoring a hit isn't going to be easy. A hit may well equal a kill, but the same result is likely when hosing the Ki with .5's .....


Fly what you like......

Raisen

EnGaurde
04-17-2005, 05:14 PM
aaah.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

refreshing to read.

bravo.

Atomic_Marten
04-17-2005, 08:21 PM
MK108s in decent number fired on ground causes lag really. But, that's almost not a problem if we are talking about limited ammo servers.

Also want to say, about all these "KI84C is superior aircraft", that it simply is not -- compred to Mustang, Jug. That is my opinion. Go into any decent server (other than arcade ones), and fly it. I bet that if you run onto P51 jock with advantage, you are dead meat in your KI84C http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Yes, yes KI84Cs are good, but.. in fact LA7 eats them for breakfast http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.(couldn't resist)

Also, since I fly Bf109 a lot online, I found no opponent to be tougher than P51 and LA5. Those were matchups between Bf109G6Late/AS and LA5FNs & P51D5NTs (versus LA7s I didnt fly much).

I simply wanna cry when in high speed fight P51 manage to get onto my tail (we're talkin about 550+kph here).
If P51 guy knows what to do, I simply can't do anything. He just sit on my 6 on distance .25k and spray the h*** outta me.
Those two more than Spit9C.

P51 does well in all theatres, if you just take that baby on high alt and give it decent speed. I actually find KI84 famous durability laughable, since few 12,7 bullets in wings and it should be seriously damaged (smoke, fuel leak, fire). Fuselage is somewhat tougher.

I think all this KI84C thing is outta its 30mm wing cannons. And BTW it is banned on most servers.


The only thing that I actually still don't like, is IMO to small diving difference. That affects Jug the most (P47 vs. KI84 matchup). He's got advantage all right, but should leave KI84C standing in dive. But I don't believe that it is the case. So there..

Aero_Shodanjo
04-18-2005, 12:22 AM
How can you not love this baby? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/Grab0010.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/Grab0009.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/Grab0013.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/Grab0007.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/1grab0001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/Grab0006.jpg

Ok, flame me, Ive got my fireproof coat ready
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

fordfan25
04-18-2005, 12:50 AM
"...and yet nobody complains about the sky being full of corsairs, mustangs and thunderbolts, easily every bit as dangerous."


You make me laugh some times man. you say that yet your always saying how you love it that the KI-84 is so much better and how the US flyers know how it feels to be domanated ect. make up your mind guy. as far as the servers being full of corsairs, mustangs and thunderbolts, is because IRL the skys were full of them and not the hords of ki84s. those were the norm ki84Cs were not.

compairing the 30mm to the Tbolts 50s is silly IMO unless your the worst shot in history those 30mm are MUCH stronger. thay have a high refire rate and 1 hit will do the job 9 outa 10 times anyway.


one thing i will say on behalf of the J flyers is there realy is not much choice late war. would be nice for them to have more choice. ofcourse most would probly still take the ki84C.

or instead of 6 versions of the f4u-1 we had at least one version of the -4 LOL http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

the stang is ok if you dont mind spending 50% of your time climbing and 40% running from 30mm shells. imo Ki-84C ...its the plane not the pilot. maby after the 4.0 patch well see some match ups that are a little more in line with reality and not fantisy wish full thinking.

raisen
04-18-2005, 03:03 AM
er.... dominated - hardly ? Briefly put - B.S. Level terms..... Taken on the balance of its strengths and weaknesses, it's about equal to the 'stangs and 'sairs, if you can find a server on which ot fly it.

Trajectory on those guns is not flat, they are far from easy to score a hit with. The current strength of those guns puts the american aircraft on the same terms as the japanese aircraft have traditionally been.....

As an aside, something that occurs to me is that some of the massively multiplayer sims only allow players to use some of the more effective types in limited numbers, by restricting them to pilots with an arbitrary number of kills. How about implementing this into the server ? Does anybody else have thoughts on such an idea ?

In any event why the hell is the Ki causing such an outcry ? they are banned on most servers what's the problem ?

Why should the allies have all of the advantage, all of the time ? This is after all, a game, the Ki actually existed and adds a little balance, whilst keeping the allied pilots honest.

A P51 or corsair flown in a realistic fashion (ie &gt; 300 knots indicated at all times) is a score*****s machine in some peoples eyes (not mine I hasten to add).... uncatchable in anything else axis has to offer in the Pacific theatre. If the occasional carrot isn't dangled to them, this sim is quickly going to run out of people willing to fly late war pacific japanese under any circumstances when online.... They aren't there simply to make targets for the allied players.

&lt;snip/&gt;the stang is ok if you dont mind spending 50% of your time climbing and 40% running from 30mm shells.&lt;/snip&gt; How sad.... Most players that regularly fly axis will be more than familiar with that scenario. It sounds like a typical boom and zoom engagement too...(climb, dive, shoot, run, climeb...etc)

I guess the P51 and 'sair need to be made even faster and have four 20mm guns added to them to cope.

Raisen

fordfan25
04-18-2005, 03:32 AM
ok. if you fly the ki84 with any regularty you learn to ajust for the rise and fall of the 30.s thay are not on par with the 50.s out classed 100%. i fly the ki hardly at all and im as good a shot with the 30mm as i am with .50s.

there is no weakness in the ki84s agist the US planes in the game. its as fast,turns better,climbs better. has more powerfull weapons. the only thing the US planes can do even a little better is dive.

the allies never have all the advantges in this game. even when its hellcats vs zeros. the zero still maintanes the manuver advantge. when its german vs us the germans have the firepower advantge ect. even wildcat vs zero is ballnced.zero can turn and has 20mm cannons the cat is a bit faster and can take more hits. yin/yang. but the ki-84C aginst what the US has in the game now is out of ballnce and nonhistoricle.

no the stang and the sair do not need to be made faster to coop. eather thay need to start fighting the types of planes thay incounterd more than 5 % of the time IRL or we need to get our late war planes that were faster like the -4 and the p47N/M wich were made in larger numbers than the 84. The J flyers right now have a large,unfair and unballenced AND un historicle advantge and thay know it and thats why the KI's are being banned.Like iv said before i have no problem with the ki84A even the KI84B is talorble but the C in the numbers i was seeing them in some servers like Warbirds is IMO BS. It would kinda be like if it had worked out that we got one of our low number never seen or seen very little of combate birds like the p-51 H that could go what 480mph and that was 80% of what you faced online in a bf109G-10. it would be BS.

you say its fair i say its not. well just have to disagree i gusse because nothing iv read in this thread or in any past post has convinced me other wise.

Badsight.
04-18-2005, 03:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fordfan25:
there is no weakness in the ki84s agist the US planes in the game. its as fast,turns better,climbs better. has more powerfull weapons. the only thing the US planes can do even a little better is dive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ok so you never fly over 6K then ? fact is the allies have all the best planes , best DFer at 10 k ? allied , seriously , Ki's are way outclassed where the best allied planes fly best

Ki-84 is not the fastest at any altitude
Ki-84 is not the fastest in a climb
Ki-84 is not the fastest in a dive
Ki-84 is not the best turning 44/45 plane
Ki-84 is not the best looping plane

sure looks uber to me in the damadge department tho

JunkoIfurita
04-18-2005, 04:08 AM
Dear Komrad Stalin. Stop.

I write in formal complaint to your use of the Yak-3 aerobatic fighter on the field of combat. Stop.

My pilots are so intimidated by these obviously superior birds that they are liable to turn their Fockewulfe's around and run as fast as their props will carry them, comma, rather than flying up to altitude to engage your pilots in a 'fair fight'. Stop.

I'm sure the appreciation will be widespread if you were to take my advice and remove said fighters from the field. Stop. My suggestion as a replacement is the La5FN, comma, my boys enjoy fighting those immensely. Stop.

Yours expectantly, comma, Goering. Stop.

----

EnGaurde
04-18-2005, 05:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You make me laugh some times man. you say that yet your always saying how you love it that the KI-84 is so much better and how the US flyers know how it feels to be domanated ect. make up your mind guy. as far as the servers being full of corsairs, mustangs and thunderbolts, is because IRL the skys were full of them and not the hords of ki84s. those were the norm ki84Cs were not.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

two things exist here: you dont have the capacity to understand what im saying, or im not saying it painfully clear enough. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

the ki84 can hunt late war allied aircraft in a way any currently modelled japanese aircraft cannot. It actually has an offensive capability that demands respect.

Its so much better, than what im used to..... cloud hiding, blindspot exploiting, full throttle all the time everywhere managing overheats more than any single system on the aircraft just to stay alive. Now i can go looking fer trouble, ive got the punching power to force allied flyers to stay outta my shotzone. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

It dominates because it doesnt have 7.7s to chip away with, i can blip off a single click shot and have it do something. Before you scream unfair! consider that I cant count the number of times a single high deflection shot has farked my Zero. NOw the IJA has a plane that will do the same thing.

Once again, allied flyers simply cant accept that their durable aircraft can be crippled, quickly. Dont blame the fact they flew poorly and ended up being shot, blame the 30mm capability of the japanese plane that humbled them. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Axis IJN / IJA flyers have this in their mind first and foremost: dont get shot, you just cant afford it. The C introduces this fear into allied flyers, and my my, doesnt it put a bad taste in many peoples mouths. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

See the difference now?

The Ki dies remarkably quickly in comparison to the allied aircrafts durability despite its firepower.

my distinction comes from.... you are forced to be offensive, for you still have the lighter construction Achillies Heel.

your confusion and subsequent mirth stems from an inability to separate those two points: it can kill much better than before, but it still cant take too much of a punch.

before, i couldnt hunt too well, id be outgunned. Now, at least im not outgunned.

clear?

EnGaurde
04-18-2005, 05:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> i fly the ki hardly at all and im as good a shot with the 30mm as i am with .50s.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

try em at 500m like ive seen from jugs. then its you who'd make me laugh. Ive received hits head on from bolts when i havent even figured out what plane im flying at yet.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> there is no weakness in the ki84s agist the US planes in the game <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cant believe that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I'm done here. That kinda speaks for itself about the point of any more posts on this topic.

Jex_TG
04-18-2005, 05:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnGaurde:
balance.

this is the problem.

real life, often does not give one iota of concern for balance.... you think the salmon thinks its fair and balanced for the grizzly to wait at narrow points in the stream, and eat it as it jumps out of the water? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

wheres the fairness there?

balance is hotly debated in many games.... no singular part of whats recognised as a good game is allowed to be too strong or too effective.

where the conflict comes for me, is that all the kids that dont want anyone else having any advantages, scream loud and long when this balance concept im trying to describe is clearly against them, due to real life capabilities of aircraft having nothing to do with balancing their opponents or the aircraft they choose to fly, at all.

if a sim is supposed to be realistic, balance cannot be allowed into the equation. Children, subsequently whack a uber description on this plane and actively scorn others who fly it as a legitimate aircraft.

do you think supermarine toned down their spitfire variants to be closely matched to the fw190???

you think that a desperate japan toned down their hayate variants to make sure there was not too much imbalance against allied aircraft???

yet what do we see here.... screaming tantrums when something is clearly superior to something else. Something japanese, that is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

as for the armament question.... axis aircraft carry all manner of heavy cannon, ie fw190 variants that can swap outboard 20mm for 30mm.
Nobody complains about that.

there is a truckload of prejudice against japanese aircraft, mostly the hayate. If the sim is to be truly real, then this difference should be worshipped as a unique component to describing real air combat, not actively fought against and ridiculed.

games are balanced.

sims are not. Can not be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you think the reason people complain is because they are trying to match say, a zoom plane with a turning plane? Could lack of knowledge in how to fight be the cause here?

To me there's just isn't any point in trying to get into a turning fight with a zero, try that and most likely you'll die, right? But I think that people see the 'turning fight' to be the mark of a good pilot. I did too for a while until I started reading books from real life pilots in an attempt to convert myself into a better fighter.

Someone here posted a link to a document that a guy wrote for EAW. In it he was saying that you should be an energy fighter, but it seemed commonplace for people to deliberately put the enemy on their six so they could get into a turning fight.

Now to me this seems ludicrous but people seem intent on trying to out turn superior turning planes. Because they cannot, they either **** of those who fly better turning planes, or switch over only to be ****ged off by those who refuse to do so.

I took a hurricane up the other day on some server (PF SA edition). Zero's and KI-84's were being flown but none of them touched me. Now I don't have a clue how the Hurricane turns against the japanese counterparts but it didn't matter. I basically circled above them, they tried to climb up to me, guns blazing but wildly off target. Of course they would then stall and that's when I made my move. I simply rolled into them, came on their six whilst they floundered in the sky and literally blew the **** out of them.

I didn't out turn anyone, I had superior energy. 3 months ago I would never have dreamed of this, so to conclude - it's not the plane it's the pilot. If you can't be arsed to study ACM, then don't complain when you get beaten. Know where you plane is better than your opponents and capitalise on that. If you don't have any options, then you can only win by being a better pilot.

The real test of course is having everyone in the same plane, then no-one can complain (lol but I bet they would still) - but that would be boring.

raisen
04-18-2005, 08:15 AM
Hear, hear Jex....
I think it is no surprise that some of the people moaning loudest about this matter are the same people that wont tolerate review of any aspect of Bf109 performance, ineffective german cannon ammo, ultra quick trim tab operation etc...etc...et bleedin' cetera that might lead to those aircraft getting a marginally better break.

No surprise at all.

Raisen

fordfan25
04-18-2005, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnGaurde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You make me laugh some times man. you say that yet your always saying how you love it that the KI-84 is so much better and how the US flyers know how it feels to be domanated ect. make up your mind guy. as far as the servers being full of corsairs, mustangs and thunderbolts, is because IRL the skys were full of them and not the hords of ki84s. those were the norm ki84Cs were not.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

two things exist here: you dont have the capacity to understand what im saying, or im not saying it painfully clear enough. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

the ki84 can hunt late war allied aircraft in a way any currently modelled japanese aircraft cannot. It actually has an offensive capability that demands respect.

Its so much better, than what im used to..... cloud hiding, blindspot exploiting, full throttle all the time everywhere managing overheats more than any single system on the aircraft just to stay alive. Now i can go looking fer trouble, ive got the punching power to force allied flyers to stay outta my shotzone. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

It dominates because it doesnt have 7.7s to chip away with, i can blip off a single click shot and have it do something. Before you scream unfair! consider that I cant count the number of times a single high deflection shot has farked my Zero. NOw the IJA has a plane that will do the same thing.

Once again, allied flyers simply cant accept that their durable aircraft can be crippled, quickly. Dont blame the fact they flew poorly and ended up being shot, blame the 30mm capability of the japanese plane that humbled them. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Axis IJN / IJA flyers have this in their mind first and foremost: dont get shot, you just cant afford it. The C introduces this fear into allied flyers, and my my, doesnt it put a bad taste in many peoples mouths. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

See the difference now?

The Ki dies remarkably quickly in comparison to the allied aircrafts durability despite its firepower.

my distinction comes from.... you are forced to be offensive, for you still have the lighter construction Achillies Heel.

your confusion and subsequent mirth stems from an inability to separate those two points: it can kill much better than before, but it still cant take too much of a punch.

before, i couldnt hunt too well, id be outgunned. Now, at least im not outgunned.

clear? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
\

O i understand you well enough guy. your not satisfide with just being able to out turn your enemy you want to be able to out gun them and fly faster. every thing you keep acuseing US fliers of is exactly what your doing your self. the KI84A is capable of what you say you want to do. it has plenty of speed,turn rate and firepower. you just like haveing the biggst advantege you can get.

its a simple case of you feel its fair to be able to out turn your enemy as well as fly faster and have more powerfull weapons and a higher climb rate.

i on the other hand feel that it is not fair or historic.

fordfan25
04-18-2005, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnGaurde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> i fly the ki hardly at all and im as good a shot with the 30mm as i am with .50s.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

try em at 500m like ive seen from jugs. then its you who'd make me laugh. Ive received hits head on from bolts when i havent even figured out what plane im flying at yet.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> there is no weakness in the ki84s agist the US planes in the game <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cant believe that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I'm done here. That kinda speaks for itself about the point of any more posts on this topic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and i cant belive you feel there is a weakness. what weakness is there hu?

adantege ki84C. just as fast as US,more fire power, higher turn rate,faster climb rate.

disadvantge ki84C. weaker "how ever off set by the fact that its cannons can kill a US plane faster than thay can kill it", less speed in a step dive." but not by much untill it reachs its breacking point".

yea that seems realy even matched all right.


I have tried them at 500m, well .50 on the range icon. i dont get as many hits but seeing as one is normaly enough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oilburner_TAW
04-18-2005, 07:38 PM
Only way I can see to settle this is give us the -4 and settle it in the skys.

Atomic_Marten
04-18-2005, 08:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JunkoIfurita:
Dear Komrad Stalin. Stop.

I write in formal complaint to your use of the Yak-3 aerobatic fighter on the field of combat. Stop.

My pilots are so intimidated by these obviously superior birds that they are liable to turn their Fockewulfe's around and run as fast as their props will carry them, comma, rather than flying up to altitude to engage your pilots in a 'fair fight'. Stop.

I'm sure the appreciation will be widespread if you were to take my advice and remove said fighters from the field. Stop. My suggestion as a replacement is the La5FN, comma, my boys enjoy fighting those immensely. Stop.

Yours expectantly, comma, Goering. Stop.

---- <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Junior Luftwaffe Officer: What?!! They have discovered "Supercharger stage 2"... Run!! We are all doomed..

fordfan25
04-18-2005, 08:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oilburner_TAW:
Only way I can see to settle this is give us the -4 and settle it in the skys. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



yea but that would resimble something close to even playing grounds....not only that BUT it might actully be historical and fair. OMG what are you thinking man. next your going to sugest that TA-152's didnt actully fill the sky's in 1944 germany. Ludicrouse i say, the insane cries of a twisted and dilusional mind. grab him lock him up.

i supose next your going to say G-suits were issued in large numbers to US and brit air men in ww2. man thats just sick. i mean every one knows the only resone germany and japan lost the war is that there tech was so advanced thay lost control and there own wepones turned aginst them.

raisen
04-19-2005, 02:56 AM
With respect fordfan, neither were german skies filled with F4U-*. Get that 'sair back in the boat it came from and back to the Pacific http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Raisen