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View Full Version : Wait a minute... What if this is all a setup?



DiamondBlade_R
11-13-2010, 06:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Kwqk&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoAFZJEKwqk&feature=related)
Watch 9:27 to 9:46.

What if Phill's right? What if we're merely being tricked into working for the Templars, while the real assassins are still out there getting their asses handed to them?
What if we're the ones responsible for that? Brrr... A scary thought.

(Warning: video contains commentary w/ strong language)

(To all of Phill's fans: he is still active! Visit his new channel DSPGaming for his latest post-suspencion playthroughs, and THEKINGOFHATEHD for not-gaming-related content by him!)

FrankieSatt
11-13-2010, 06:49 AM
So what you are saying is that Lucy and the others are really templars but misleading Desmond and tricking him into helping the Templars?

I guess it could be possible, it would make for a very interesting story line. Maybe and endgame fight with Lucy? Who knows.

TheMusingMoose
11-13-2010, 10:13 AM
Short answer. NO.
Long answer. NO!

ninja_7_7
11-13-2010, 10:17 AM
http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

DiamondBlade_R
11-13-2010, 11:35 AM
How can you be so sure?
On the contrary, you should be questioning their identity now tthat I've brought this point up.

Think about it. We have more evidence against them than we do in their favor:
Why would Lucy and Vidic allow Desmond to sniff around the lab and read their E-mails so easily?
Sure, There's the bit where Lucy says she "rigged the cameras to loop old footage", but what if that's a lie? What if she actually intended for Desmond to come across all the E-mails he did - fake E-mails she planted on the laptops (particularily the one where she corresponds with Shaun and Rebecca, "asking for help and condeming the Templars' cause), in order to buy his trust? This all makes perfect sense!
Not to mention how incredible easy it was for them to escape from Abstergo - it's like the security guards didn't even try to stop them!

jonesly
11-13-2010, 12:11 PM
This could make for a very intense plot twist..

ninja_7_7
11-13-2010, 12:16 PM
Because at the end of the second one Vidic would of reasoned with Desmond saying. It is all set up THERE YOUR ENEMIES NOT US. Stuff like that.

lilbacchant
11-13-2010, 12:30 PM
It's possible, but at this point I don't see why it'd be necessary for the templars to create such a ruse. They had him right where they wanted him in AC1: locked up tight and he was cooperating.

It would make sense on their part to create a supposedly sympathetic *friendly* for him in Lucy, perhaps -- from the standpoint of encouraging his continued cooperation (assuming that the whole, "We could just put you in a coma" line in AC1 was a bluff).

But even if Lucy were a double-agent, so to speak, it was already working. Why risk letting him out of the highly secure facility? Especially if your plan is to have him re-enter an Animus and potentially transform from a bartender to a major bad-*** thanks to the bleeding effect.

I don't know ... it *is* a possibility. But given what we know so far, it doesn't seem likely to me.

obliviondoll
11-13-2010, 12:33 PM
He was only grudgingly cooperating to survive, not actively trying to be helpful.

Particularly important if they'd found the coded messages 16 hid but couldn't get at them any other way...

Also, the whole Assassin attempted rescue thing could have been a ruse as well - all we got was a few shouts and gunfire. Doesn't seem like the kind of thing the animus operators should be hearing directly anyway, does it?

The more I think about this, the more likely it seems...

ninja_7_7
11-13-2010, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
He was only grudgingly cooperating to survive, not actively trying to be helpful.

Particularly important if they'd found the coded messages 16 hid but couldn't get at them any other way...

Also, the whole Assassin attempted rescue thing could have been a ruse as well - all we got was a few shouts and gunfire. Doesn't seem like the kind of thing the animus operators should be hearing directly anyway, does it?

The more I think about this, the more likely it seems...
They would never shoot at Desmond they dont want to kill him.

lilbacchant
11-13-2010, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
He was only grudgingly cooperating to survive, not actively trying to be helpful.

They only needed him to cooperate, mostly in a passive sense, and whether he liked it or not, from what I can see, was immaterial to the task at hand.


Particularly important if they'd found the coded messages 16 hid but couldn't get at them any other way...

The glyphs do raise the possible need on Abstergo's part that Desmond be actually helpful vs. just cooperating -- good point. Otoh, if they already knew that much about the hacks, one has to wonder why they necessarily needed Desmond's help with them at all ... I don't know, I'll have to give it more thought.


Also, the whole Assassin attempted rescue thing could have been a ruse as well - all we got was a few shouts and gunfire. Doesn't seem like the kind of thing the animus operators should be hearing directly anyway, does it?

I've already granted (at least I thought I did) that there was nothing in the story actions that counter the possibility of a ruse. My point is simply that I'm not sold from the standpoint of it fitting the plot -- i.e., how or why it would benefit Abstergo in some fashion vs. actually adding them unneccesary risk.


The more I think about this, the more likely it seems...

I'm still not as far as "likely", but thanks to your point about the glyphs, I have moved from "unlikely" to "plausible".

DiamondBlade_R
11-13-2010, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by ninja_7_7:
Because at the end of the second one Vidic would of reasoned with Desmond saying. It is all set up THERE YOUR ENEMIES NOT US. Stuff like that.
But my point is that Lucy, Rebecca and Shaun, who are claiming to be Assassins, could turn out to be Tempars themselves.

FrankieSatt
11-13-2010, 01:57 PM
I don't see why people would be against this. I would see this as a very interesting story line twist. The whole time he thinks he's working for the assassin's why all along he's working for the templars. They could have thought that he would be more cooropterative if they decieved him.

In any case, it's very interesting and I for one wouldn't have a problem with it.

obliviondoll
11-13-2010, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by lilbacchant:
I'm still not as far as "likely", but thanks to your point about the glyphs, I have moved from "unlikely" to "plausible".
Not saying it's likely myself, just that the more I think about it, the less it seems like a stupid idea.

********************

***SPOILERS AHEAD***
***FOR AC AND AC2***
****FAIR WARNING****

********************

And my comment about the attempted rescue was the one in AC1. That could easily have been faked to give Desmond more incentive to trust the Assassins.

Let me tell you a story...

The templars have Subject 16, an Assassin descendant of the line who have the "Eagle Vision" trait. He's kept comatose in the animus, and forced through memories of various ancestors. They find out he's been tampering with the animus, but can't confirm 100% what he did. After some time, they discover that there are codes hidden in the recordings of various memories he relived, but they also discover that these codes can't be accessed outside the animus, and even within the animus can only be accessed by someone descended form the same line as Subject 16 - another Assassin with Eagle Vision.

Eventually, Desmond, one of the possible subjects they can use, is tracked down. Unfortunately, due to his behaviour it's almost immediately clear that he can't be brought in willingly. To get him into the facility in the first place, they need to capture him forcefully. But they won't be able to keep him comatose if they want to access the encrypted files subject 16 hid, they need him aware, and most importantly, willing.

So they engineer a situation in which Desmond will come to distrust Abstergo themselves, while at the same time building trust between him and a chosen employee, who will introduce him later to several others who claim to be working against Abstergo. They tie themselves and this person into the memories they know they need to put Desmond through, those of Ezio, by linking Abstergo to the Templars, who Ezio believed to be evil, and his rescuers to the Assassins, of whom Ezio became the leader.

Spending time going through Altair's memories allowed them to familiarise Desmond with the animus, get a feel for his ability at operating the machine, see how resilient his mind was to the bleeding effect, and engender both hatred of Abstergo and trust in Lucy.

Everything ties in.

But like I said, it would be more simple and logical to assume they are who they say they are. Occam's Razor and all that.

Redfeather1975
11-13-2010, 02:06 PM
I believe in the end it won't be Templars vs. Assassins.

Desmond in the future might rethink identifying himself with the Assassins first and foremost. If he develops the will and courage to criticize the intent of the group he depends on, he may find there are greater allies in places he never would have thought to look previously.

EzioAssassin51
11-13-2010, 02:09 PM
I'm kind of meh on the whole idea.

Both sides have tons of arguments, but i think i'm going to go with no.

I'm not entirely sure why i think this though. I might update later...

DiamondBlade_R
11-13-2010, 02:18 PM
Seriously, why does everyone have this signature?
What poor fella did y'all still it from? =S

cless711
11-13-2010, 02:29 PM
Over here:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...1069024/m/6611087198 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/6611087198)

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

lilbacchant
11-13-2010, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
Not saying it's likely myself, just that the more I think about it, the less it seems like a stupid idea.

Okay, it sounds like we're mostly occupying the same space then.


He's kept comatose in the animus, and forced through memories of various ancestors.

I think the whole, "We could just put you in a coma," thing was a bluff by Vidic. I get the impression that the animus requires conscious feedback in order to progress thru the memories. But that's just my take on the sci-fi being presented so far in the game and could be a long (though interesting) discussion in and of itself.


But like I said, it would be more simple and logical to assume they are who they say they are. Occam's Razor and all that.

Exactly. It's certainly a possible and plausible element of the plot, I just personally don't think it's the direction the writers are headed. Of course, either AC:B or AC3 could make me eat those words.

Nice story, by the way. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

davo1270
11-13-2010, 02:54 PM
DARKSYDEPHIL!!!, its funny cuz i just spent the last week watching all 142 of his AC2 playthrough videos, and he's the best soo far
(even though he sucks sooo much) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

DiamondBlade_R
11-13-2010, 03:00 PM
Over here:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...1069024/m/6611087198
OK, I got the URL, now how do I submit it in image format, so it doesn't look... like this?

Radman500
11-14-2010, 05:10 PM
i actully like this idea alot.. it makes sense

i could see lucy revealing herself as a double agent and being a boss in ac3.. in a sword fight, or h2h etc. i mean we already know she can fight.. so desmond vs. lucy ac3.. maybe

Piflik
11-14-2010, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by DiamondBlade_R:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Kwqk&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoAFZJEKwqk&feature=related)
Watch 9:27 to 9:46.

What if Phill's right? What if we're merely being tricked into working for the Templars, while the real assassins are still out there getting their asses handed to them?
What if we're the ones responsible for that? Brrr... A scary thought.

(Warning: video contains commentary w/ strong language)

(To all of Phill's fans: he is still active! Visit his new channel DSPGaming for his latest post-suspencion playthroughs, and THEKINGOFHATEHD for not-gaming-related content by him!)

Actually that was exatly my thoughts when I fisrt heard about AC2's story...and I firmly expected it to be a major twist in AC2...(minor AC2-SPOILER ahead: the bleeding effect overspill was a bit disappointing a twist in my eyes)...I think it might be revealed in Brotherhood, though...the escape in the beginning of AC2 and the 'attack' at the end went a little too smooth for them to be serious attempts...

steelernati0n
11-14-2010, 05:27 PM
This seems possible, but why would Abstergo attack the warehouse, if they let him go on purpose?

Piflik
11-14-2010, 05:38 PM
Overcoming a dangerous situation together works better than any aphrodisiac http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Abstergo's plot is to bind Desmond to Lucy to easier manipulate him. The more obstacles they best, the deeper becomes the bond between them.

In my opinion the modern times plot of the AC franchise is too straight forward...but then again Ezio's path in AC2 wasn't exactly riddled with twists and turns, so the game might just as well continue the uninspired path it followed up to now...on the other hand, a betrayal plot is also clichéd...so both choices would be bad choices http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Skylined69
11-14-2010, 05:44 PM
Call it gut instinct but I don't think it's Lucy that Desmond should be looking out for I think it Shaun Hastings that guy seems a little too aloof and smarmy, in films he'd be the typical mole.

SWJS
11-14-2010, 06:38 PM
So wait... Abstergo purposely broke Desmond out of their stronghold so that they could train him using the bleeding effect against themselves? And I suppose they're training Templars the same way just to keep up this ruse? I bet they let Desmond kill all those guards on purpose at the end of AC2? I bet they got the CEO in on it too. Maybe threatening to kill him was just a bluff too? Maybe Shaun and Rebecca's plan to send Lucy into Abstergo as a mole was actually thought up by Abstergo? Maybe Abstergo planted the Hologram of Minerva in his memories. Maybe Subject 16 is a Templar?

Yeah... there are so many things wrong with this theory, and even if it did have one bit of plausibility, there's so much counter evidence to still disprove it.

Anthony955
11-14-2010, 07:46 PM
I hightly doubt any of Desmond's friends are double-agents for the Templars, though I admit, it would be interesting, but IMO, it'd be too cruel a cliff-hanger to pull. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

nedostapna
11-15-2010, 02:00 AM
than what about the Eagle Vision?
It shows Lucy and the others blue, meaning that they are allies.

obliviondoll
11-15-2010, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by nedostapna:
than what about the Eagle Vision?
It shows Lucy and the others blue, meaning that they are allies.
(SPOILER)
Showed AL Mualim as blue at the beginning of AC1 too.

It's based on perception, at least partly.

Razrback16
11-15-2010, 05:36 AM
Sounds pretty far fetched. I hope that's not the direction they go with the story.

FrankieSatt
11-15-2010, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by EzioTheAssassin:
So wait... Abstergo purposely broke Desmond out of their stronghold so that they could train him using the bleeding effect against themselves? And I suppose they're training Templars the same way just to keep up this ruse? I bet they let Desmond kill all those guards on purpose at the end of AC2? I bet they got the CEO in on it too. Maybe threatening to kill him was just a bluff too? Maybe Shaun and Rebecca's plan to send Lucy into Abstergo as a mole was actually thought up by Abstergo? Maybe Abstergo planted the Hologram of Minerva in his memories. Maybe Subject 16 is a Templar?

Yeah... there are so many things wrong with this theory, and even if it did have one bit of plausibility, there's so much counter evidence to still disprove it.

It wouldn't be the first time that a villan sacrificed his own people to meet his own needs. What are a few guards compared to the end game?

While it's not likely, it's definitly plausible and I for one wouldn't be upset to see it that way. Like I said, it would make for a good story line.

Piflik
11-15-2010, 07:17 AM
If Abstergo wants the abilities of the assassin's on their side, sacrificing some guards to get one assassin might be a acceptable tradeoff...

Theassassin4756
11-15-2010, 09:01 AM
**SPOILERS FOR AC2**
then the whole "Secure" connection with Minerva was a waste of time. This is why i don't think anyone is a Traitor but id put my money on Shuan out of all of them.

huevosbenedict
11-15-2010, 10:49 AM
I gotta disagree, as we have a lot of proof otherwise. First off, Desmond's Eagle Vision confirmed Lucy as an ally, and Eagle Vision never lies. Also, the memories they were living in AC2, Abstergo had already re-lived these with Subject 16, so what would be the point...think about it.

obliviondoll
11-15-2010, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by huevosbenedict:
I gotta disagree, as we have a lot of proof otherwise. First off, Desmond's Eagle Vision confirmed Lucy as an ally, and Eagle Vision never lies. Also, the memories they were living in AC2, Abstergo had already re-lived these with Subject 16, so what would be the point...think about it.

Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nedostapna:
than what about the Eagle Vision?
It shows Lucy and the others blue, meaning that they are allies.
(SPOILER)
Showed AL Mualim as blue at the beginning of AC1 too.

It's based on perception, at least partly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And they were reliving memories of an ancestor who subject 16 and Desmond shared. They don't say how far through Ezio's memories 16 lived, or how much of the memories was corrupted by him being completely insane.

Having Desmond in the animus willingly meant two things.

1.) confirmation of the more questionable elements of 16's memories, and

2.) They could keep going with those memories past the point where 16 lost the plot and killed himself.

Piflik
11-15-2010, 11:05 AM
Minor Spoiler for the beginning of Brotherhood ahead...continue with caution...


Lucy doesn't do the Leap of Faith at the Villa...

nedostapna
11-15-2010, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Piflik:
Minor Spoiler for the beginning of Brotherhood ahead...continue with caution...


Lucy doesn't do the Leap of Faith at the Villa...
Spoiler Francesco de Pazzi did something like a leap of faith in AC2, and Al Mualim as a Leader of the assassins surely knew how to do it, perhaps teaching the other assassins Spoiler

Piflik
11-15-2010, 11:53 AM
Francesco di Pazzi did not do a Leap of Faith but rather a Leap of Fear and Desperation...

If Al Mualim could do a Leap of Faith is not known...

MPSai
11-20-2010, 07:38 PM
I had a similar thought, only that maybe Lucy, Shaun and Rebecca are all being deceived as well. Just a feeling I got while snooping around in their emails in Brotherhood, looking at their correspondences with that William M. guy.

firelegendmush
11-20-2010, 11:55 PM
HUGE SPOILERS AHEAD!



At the end of ACB this is all but confirmed. Desmond and the others enter a secret vault in the colloseum and meet Juno who is a "One Who Came Before". When you finally reach the AoE, Desmond is forced to "kill"(or at least stab) Lucy. Juno says that he had to "Open the path". Also, in the Truth, Sub. 16 tells Ezio that "She is not who you think she is"

BloodyMoon1
11-21-2010, 01:56 AM
Vidic admitted that Abstergo was Templar's...Plus he didn't allow Desmond to read his stuff, Desmond steals his password pen thing from out of his pocket. Plus, why would Abstergo try putting a satellite into space with the apple to control everyone if they were the good guys? Not to mention all the stuff 16 has put into the Animus. And why would the "good guys" be willing to put Desmond into a coma in AC1 if he resisted? Why kidnap him? Granted, there are some parts that make it seem Desmond isn't being told everything, namely "The Truth" from AC:B when 16 says *spoiler*<span class="ev_code_WHITE">"She isn't what she seems."</span>

Besides, have you not seen the part with Vidic talking to all the abstergo agents? If memory serves, he calls them Templars.

Also, Eagle Vision. They're all blue.