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Georgegar
07-23-2005, 07:54 PM
I appreciate that many gamers have no problem with playing the role of a Uboat captain...what I can't understand is why Ubisoft doesn't offer an alternative "good guys" sub to operate -British; American; Commonwealth; Free French whatever to those of us who cannot bring themselves, even in "fun" to gleefully attack Allied shipping...we who spent their boyhood in an England at war, and saw post-war service in the Merchant Navy, find it repugnant to play the part of an arch-enemy, who, no matter how skilful and brave, very nearly did us in. Surely there must be former editions of SH that had an alternative sub to Uboats?

JCC2003
07-23-2005, 07:59 PM
Silent Hunter (I)

JCC

KillerBotter
07-23-2005, 10:52 PM
The reason you play as a German submariner is simply because there's more entertainment value in it then in being an American in the Pacific. I mean I know you may have problems with this game but that's it right there, it's a game. It's not reality, I don't want to offend you but surely as an intelligent man you can decipher the difference between the real and the simulated.

Sgt_Starbuck
07-23-2005, 11:03 PM
I believe there is a game called "Destroyer Command".

Sarge

Jack_Stern
07-23-2005, 11:24 PM
Georgegar, are you actually playing the game or just voicing a point of view? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Kaiser_W
07-24-2005, 02:49 AM
Is that for real? People are people, be they german or otherwise. What's the difference in killing a pixelated german, an american freighter or a ***** in GTA? They're all fake? I always have a hardy laugh when I hear talk about videogames blirring the line between reality and fiction. My view? I don't care, I kill everybody equally, as long as it's in the spirit of the game. It's time that the germans got even, after MoH, Call of Duty, Commandos, Hidden & Dangers and so on...

Chrystine
07-24-2005, 04:14 AM
My two bits €¦

There€s still ample reason to respect everyone€s view €" whether an SH III €˜player€ or just voicing a viewpoint hardly matters does it? It€s a viewpoint and a legitimate question, I believe.

There are yet a LOT of people who lived through the horrible ordeal of the late 30€s through €45, and have some deeply rooted views and feelings about it.
I€m no great fan of Hitler or the Third Reich, that€s for sure €" but I don€t mind at all giving service on a U-boat in this Sim.
My father was forced to flee the Russians (one of the €œAllies€) in the Baltic€s in early €44 €" and it was German soldiers who helped him do it.

War is a crazy thing €" alliances are crazy, peoples are crazy €¦
When one voice speaks up expressing something lucid, maybe it€s good to reflect on the moments of sanity that breathe in between all the rest ..?

Myself personally?
I think Germany was right in €39 €¦ They Should Have fought to get out from under the utterly criminal stupidity, arrogance, robbery and insult imposed by the €˜Allies€ in the so-called €˜Treaty of Versailles.€

Likewise, to say it: I think it somewhat unfortunate for those who can€t see anything beyond or deeper than the swastika and the 3rd Reich, the Nazi Party and German National Socialism as defined by the €˜brown shirts€ and the SS, etc €¦ &nd who miss that, even in SH III, as in reality then €" it was more likely that one in the German Navy was fighting for Fatherland and for the Grand Navy, not for Hitler and his cronies €¦

To Georgegar, specifically €¦
& to those who share that same view, perspective and general disposition with regards to SH III€s U-Boat Only non-option €¦
There€s no need to €˜attack Allied shipping gleefully€ in order to derive some real satisfaction from SH III.
I attack them too €" on this present patrol, in the past two days, I€ve been forced to sink two American Destroyers, and sure €" there€s that twinge of €˜regret€ about that at one level€¦
But €" take it all in on the whole. The truth is, SH III has increased my respect for the Allies€ strengths and Will to Win the €˜Battle for the Atlantic€ exponentially.
These aren€t cheap, shoot €˜em once and drop dead, NovaLogic styled AI. The AI in SH III make it tough-going! & well they should €¦
So sink them if you have to €¦ sink them because it€s your duty as a sub commander, etc €¦ doesn€t need diminish your respect for your opponents one bit. Commensurate with your €˜Realism Settings,€ it is apt to even increase that respect €" whether you€d want it to or not€¦

Either way €" SH III (like anything & everything) is what you choose to make it, and all things are rooted in perspective.

Best, & Happy hunting!
~ C.

joeap
07-24-2005, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by Chrystine:

Myself personally?
I think Germany was right in €39 €¦ They Should Have fought to get out from under the utterly criminal stupidity, arrogance, robbery and insult imposed by the €˜Allies€ in the so-called €˜Treaty of Versailles.€



Best, & Happy hunting!
~ C.

I respect that point of view, but as so often happens, Germany didn't stop at getting out of the (I agree) criminal Versailles treaty. I fail to see how invading all of Poland, like Czechoslovakia or even more my ancestral homeland Greece (whose leader was rather pro-Hitler). Ironic that in trying to fight Bolshevism Hitler opened up Eastern and Central Europe to Stalin.

stinkhammer6
07-24-2005, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by Georgegar:
I appreciate that many gamers have no problem with playing the role of a Uboat captain...what I can't understand is why Ubisoft doesn't offer an alternative "good guys" sub to operate -British; American; Commonwealth; Free French whatever to those of us who cannot bring themselves, even in "fun" to gleefully attack Allied shipping...we who spent their boyhood in an England at war, and saw post-war service in the Merchant Navy, find it repugnant to play the part of an arch-enemy, who, no matter how skilful and brave, very nearly did us in. Surely there must be former editions of SH that had an alternative sub to Uboats?

You bought the game after reading either, the reviews, the advertisement and or even the box it came in, so you fully understood you were playing the role of a GERMAN u-boat capatain in this game, then you come in here and complain about "good guys". Its your own fault and mistake for buying this game and for NOT reading what the game was about even on the box as you took it to the check out counter. As far as Im concerned the Germans were and are still the good guys, if you dont take the time to read what you are buying, I have tons of land and bridges Ill sell you cheap.

Jose.MaC
07-24-2005, 07:01 AM
You can atain this kind of gaming modding heavily Silent Hunter II, since it had modeled a bunch of subs of boths sides. Maybe you can find something in http://www.subsim.com

Chrystine
07-24-2005, 08:17 AM
Hi Joeap,

€œ..As so often happens, Germany didn't stop at getting out of the (I agree) criminal Versailles treaty. I fail to see how invading all of Poland, like Czechoslovakia or even more my ancestral homeland Greece (whose leader was rather pro-Hitler). Ironic that in trying to fight Bolshevism Hitler opened up Eastern and Central Europe to Stalin."

Absolutely €" I sure agree€¦

It€s why I said (softly) €" €œ..Germany was right in €39.€ Very shortly thereafter, it took some really, really bad and ill-advised turns.
The subsequent ironies have been many, profound and long-lasting €" the €˜holding the door open€ to Bolshevism is a classic example.

Best,
~ C.

JU88
07-24-2005, 08:44 AM
Why only Uboats? well i guess the devs didnt have time to modle british subs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif - not that there would be alot to do in one really, still would be nice if they made it in to expansion, even if they were non playable.

U-49
07-24-2005, 09:47 AM
This excerpt is from an SH3 dev FAQ:

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Question</span>: <span class="ev_code_WHITE">Why German side again?</span>

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Answer</span>: <span class="ev_code_WHITE">Because the German U-Boat campaign offers the largest submarine warfare background, the most impressive technological advances in the field and covers the widest geographical area.</span>

So there you have it. Makes perfect sense to me. As a developer, you want to make your game entertaining, right?

If you have issue with playing a game as a German U-boat captain, then don't play it and move onto something else.

Grey004
07-24-2005, 04:57 PM
@ Georgegar.

There is a way you can rid yourself of your indignation.

Just try to blank out the flag your victim is flying.It may sound like a stupid solution but it works.

captsteubie
07-25-2005, 02:58 AM
Remember folks, this is not a political discussion forum. After all, the Germans had dispensed with the Versailles Treaty well before the invasion of Poland in 1939. Hitler had advocated rearmament much earlier. Why German?.... because it's fun. We are not waving flags and wearing brown shirts here. It is a game. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Georgegar
07-25-2005, 12:10 PM
Thank you all, for your comments, the most useful of which I found to be that of JCC who told me of a version of SH whereby I did NOT
have to simulate operating a Uboat...to clarify, I do not have Hunter 3, very much would like to buy it, laughing at my own qualms, 'cos it is, as most of you point out "only a game", trouble is, when I visualize myself "sinking" Allied or Neutral shipping, I also visualize doing so in the company of former shipmates or compatriates of WW2...I can just hear their comments!(I can't repeat them in this family forum)...perhaps that's how conscience works..."I wouldn't like so-and so to know I'm doing this"

Perhaps its a case of "being there"...as a "Roman" I quite enjoy battling my ancestor Brits in Civilisation 2, or chiselling honest "American" enterpreneurs in "Railroad Tycoon" since, even I wasn't around in those days to empathise with anyone the way I did back in WW2.

I presume that most of the players of SH3, have no memories of WW2, but am surprised that few of my respondents seem not to have met any vets who served in that war, who would, I believe, have expressed similar views to mine (I would very much like to hear from an Allied WW2 vet, who actually plays SH3 - perhaps he could straighten out my misplaced patriotism?)

For I believe that patriotism is what it's all about, folks...fifty years or so, down the road I foresee somebody coming out with a game as marvellous as SH3 - topnotch technology, gorgeous graphics, rampant realism ...
The gameplay simulates the career of a "terrorist" beginning with a 20th Century Mideast training-camp, with the player eventually triumphing by flying an airliner into a skyscraper, or blowing -up London or Madrid's railway systems...to your, as yet, unborn great-grandchildren it's only a "marvy game"...but how would you feel?

Jack_Stern
07-25-2005, 02:00 PM
I believe fifty years from now when all the terrorists are dead and their beliefs are frowned upon by the whole world and the History Channel runs documentaries about how they never got out of a 14th century mindset, there will be a game. In 3D with true zoom and branching gameplay about being a backward "little sheet head" and our great grandchildren will find it fun and challenging to play as one. Because they know they will lose in the end and rightly so. But then, what the heck do I know?

JU88
07-25-2005, 02:51 PM
To be honest, there are already countless WW2 games where you play as the Allies, i must have killed about a billion virtual nazis in my time, while I am British myself and hardly a right wing goose stepping one either, I still think SH3 is refreshing to be one of the only WW2 games where you see things from the other side, its a game - so politics are exempt from it, for me at least.

Still, im at the ripe ol' age of 25 and Ive not fought in any wars, so since you are real vet who was actually there, I certainly respect and understand the way you must feel about it mate. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I guess if you play SH3 you could just think of it as being objective at best.
I dont think the the comparrison with terroism can be applied. The crew of a german Uboat had much in common with the crew of british destroyer, meaning- on both sides they were young men trying to serve there country and well aware of the dangers they faced. Soliders have the power to fight soldiers, civilian do not have the same power in your conventional terrorist bombing.

I doubt even if fifty years there will be a game that allows a player to make a surprse attack on unsuspecting civilians, Some things are like the holocaust, it was sick fifty years ago, and its still sick now. terrorism is not different. You cant really compare a solider vs soldier scenario, with a mass murderer vs civilian one.

Mr._Snavely
07-25-2005, 06:17 PM
Ref. http://www.ubootwaffe.net :

Arthur Baudzus who was a U-boat man on one of the Monsun boats, U-859:

For half a century now I have been an Australian.
My son had been an Australian Soldier, killing enemies in Vietnam. When I was his age, I had been a German U-boat man, killing enemies on the high seas until a torpedo of THEM slammed into our hull, sinking our boat and killing most of my comrades. At war it always seems to be a matter of THEM or US, US being the good guys and THEM being evil who must be shot. As time went by, life blurred my vision as to whether I was an US or a THEM and I wondered who had the power to determine that and force people to kill each other.

Georgegar
07-27-2005, 09:49 AM
I find that I was remiss in my last message - I didn't acknowledge the kind suggestion from Jose.Mac that I visit the subsim site...thank you for that, J.M.

You've all raised some very interesting philosophical and psychological points, but as somebody pointed out, this forum is supposed to be about a particular game, so I'd better stick to subs

As I say, I seek a version of SH that doesn't require me to "attack" the targets offered in SH3...I've received much help from this forum -as well as food for thought - even if it hasn't cured me of my "hangup", which , I suppose,
is peculiar to my generation (I'm 74)

I forgot to mention that I have two DOS disks of SH picked up from thrift shops, junk stores over the years, I haven't been able to get to grips with either - one is "Commander's Edition" which requires Windows 3.1, which I mistakenly assumed I could obtain from Microsft, the other program has no directions whatsoever, and I can't get it going no matter
what password I try in the A drive. I bought these disks in the hope that they would offer me a choice of "Allied" subs (besides their being dirt-cheap!), so if anybody knows anything about these ancient programs, I would be grateful for their advice.

Durinthiam
07-27-2005, 09:58 AM
I find it quite refreshing to find a WWII game from the German(Axis) perspective. THe list is near endless of Allied games, granted they are FPS'. To be fair the U-Boats did inflict major damage on the allies in WWII and it would be wrong of the game devs to switch history.

DiveDevil
07-27-2005, 10:40 PM
I lost family on a couple of those Victory cargo ships-I never met them but I learned thats how they gave their lives-and my uncle,on my Mothers side was a welder at the shipyards in Portland Maine helping pump out those same Victory cargo boats that I now simulate sinking with my type VIIC. I understand the conflict but I also understand that this is a sim,a game and with that knowldge I can detatch reality from fiction. This is a game. Honestly if this game came out portraying the American sub campain in the Pacific I wouldn't have even gave it a second look. I'm deeply interested in the German U-boat campaign in the Atlantic because of all that went on, it was amazing on both sides what they went through. Its history that can never be repeated for numerous reasons and this sim-believe it or not-helps me to further understand this part of history.Remeber the Atlantic campaign was far from a German turkey shoot 30,000 Germans died in those U-boats and about that many sailors died sailing those convoys. Knowing that now I look at the water off the coast of Maine a little diffrently now.

zuluDROOG
07-28-2005, 06:26 AM
Hi Georgegar,

Thank you for taking the time to post and giving everyone the benefit to see a viewpoint from someone who has certainly earned the right to have one. As I see it, you're being pulled in two directions - the attraction of an intensely atmospheric, graphically superb and extreme playable modern computer simulation/game Vs. the conscience of a nazi war-torn generation. I think I have a solution for you...

Scenario:

You and your men are deep undercover within the Nazi war machine. Posing as an Unterseeboot crew you and your elite squad of agents man one of the prized german submarines on a daily basis. It's a task that brings little glory for you never seem to win medals and your success rate is abysmal. However, as each mission presents itself you consistently manage to avoid sinking allied targets. German warships present unsuspecting targets but Nazi reprisal will be swift and furious but this doesn't stop you and your crew from hunting them down and sending them to a watery grave. It's a dirty job... but I bet no-one else has done it...

With all due respect, hope this helps. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Georgegar
07-29-2005, 11:25 AM
Thank you zuluDROOG! I, myself, was beginning to wonder if it was possible to sink AXIS ships in SH3 by "mistake" or intent...your post indicates that it is.

If this be so, I would operate my virtual Uboat
as an Allied sub, seeking only to destroy Axis
shipping: however, I imagine that the game doesn't bother to display many Axis targets - why would it, save to test the gamer's skill at "ship recognition", and introduce the factor of "friendly fire"?
Too, if in the game, one could get into a wolf-pack, there'd be lots of targets in other Uboats, certainly, as zD indicates, I doubt that my renegade Uboat would fare well against such formidable opposition, but at least I'd be playing this reputedly great game without any qualms

Without knowing too much about SH3, zuluDROOG's idea seems to me to be a jolly good one, as long as, indeed, an SH3 player is able to target Axis vessels...what say other gamers?

JU88
07-29-2005, 11:34 AM
I think what you need is destroyer command 2, nobody knows if the devs are secretly working on an SH3 expansion or not, and if it will have playble surface vessels or not, (like british DDs or submarines). It would be great, but could only work if the devs can produce decent Submarine/Uboat AI, something sorely missing from SH3 - hence no wolfpacks or milcows.....

zuluDROOG
07-29-2005, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Georgegar:
possible to sink AXIS ships in SH3 by "mistake" or intent...your post indicates that it is.

I'm going to have to test this. I've never actually fired on a friendly. :S


I imagine that the game doesn't bother to display many Axis targets

Not as many axis targets are reported but I think that depends on where you're patrolling. For example, when ssailing from Kiel in 39-40 you see at least one axis destroyer and a couple of merchants each patrol (and that's only on the way and from your base). When I sail out I usually head straight for my patrol area - you would tend to hang around the axis ports so you're bound to see more.


...there'd be lots of targets in other Uboats...

As JU88 has pointed out, sadly this isn't so. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Letalis420
07-29-2005, 12:56 PM
Understandable that those who lived in the time of WWII would have a problem with Germany during that time, but in terms of a game, Germany has been the only country to ever use submarine warfare in an offensive stance.

There were essentally two branches of the German Military. the German Regular army, navy and air force, and then there were the SS. while the regular army was indeed fighting under Hitler's orders, alot of the Germans in the regular army were not responsible for the atroscities of the holocaust. not to say they were all innocent, but the SS were the ones responsible for the orders that killed so many innocent people. In a sense the German Regular army were fighting at the end of a gunpoint themselves.

As far as playing a game where you are a U-Boat Commander, the technical manuals on the U-Boats are declassified, thus an accuate depection of what it was like to command a U-Boat was easier to do than say alot of the other naval craft. Personally i believe that the game is a great game, but its just that, a game, no one actually dies in silent hunter iii.

DiveDevil
07-30-2005, 03:21 AM
Sounds like you have a pretty big delema with this "game" but its just that a game. If its that big of a deal to you then maybe you shouldn't be looking into this game. You haven't bought it yet so your morals are still safe and cozy. Like I said in my first reply my family was an active participent in the Merchant Marines and construction of merchant ships during that time and I have no problem with this game because I can seperat reality from fiction. I just don't see what your getting so hung up about concidering you haven't even purchaced the game yet. Play Flight Simulator WWII European theater as a British pilot, theres a mission where you attack a harbor full of U-boats; would that make you feel better? See what I'm feeling is if this game was about sinking Germans then you would be on this forum talking up you latest conquests only you would get some gleeful revenge, some sort of satisfaction over something that is history and thats kind of sad and scary to me. This is a game, most of us play it because it kicks butt and thats that. I could car less if I'm playing the role of a U-boat commander thats almost secondary. This game won't make you a Nazi but whatever it seems you memories are still to fresh to handle this concept. Do yourself a favor and find a nice tycoon game to play or something soft with a little less carnage; Tetris maybe, unless your still hung up about the Cold War too. Sorry for being a little cold man but GET A GRIP! Again this is only a game no-one really dies. Beside I can't imagine you would be to thrilled to see the sailors getting blown off the first warship you torped.

WFGood
07-30-2005, 09:24 AM
There is a way to play SH on WinXP and other more modern versions of Windows. If you want to load one, I would be willing to help you. Look at this website for a workaround that will allow you to play. http://www.subsowespac.org/sh_xp/silent_hunterxp.shtml

Enigma Rising Tide or Steel Tide are also games you may want to look at. They are a little less simulation but would allow you to play without having to sink British or American shipping.

Georgegar
07-30-2005, 01:29 PM
Sound as is the advice from some of you, that I get over myself by playing other games featuring tycoonery to tin-cans, the point is that I very much WANT to play as a submariner, in a sim that has lots of great gameplay, yet without too many dial or doohickeys to confuse this old lubber, who scarce can navigate his own walker. SH3 seems to be such a game, hence my interest...and of course, nothing that makes of a voyage a guilt-trip for this cyber sailor.

Apart from my own inhibitions, I am aware of, a the feelings of, at least, some of my own generation, when it comes to wargames.
I well remember being hooked on an early subsim (see below)...no gore, no glory, my sub, and the target "warships" all being anonymous in this very basic sim, yet my mild-mannered brother-in-law - who'd served in the post-war Royal Navy - couldn't hide his disgust at what I was doing...I might add that, much as I did, and do, revere him, I carried on shooting-'em-up, happy as a clam - no names, no ****** of conscience!

Thanks to zuluDROOG and WFGood, other options arise, and perhaps, before long, I will be forsaking FIFA Soccer, and virtual snooker to dodge depth charges and line up attacking warships in my periscope sights...in fact, one of my first-ever games was a sub-sim, shareware on a "Big Blue" floppy (remember them?)very elementary, mostly text driven, apart from detailed vessels appearing in the periscope sights, the graphics being but blobs on a blank background, yet I, and an oppo played this game morning, noon and night...I wasn't very skilful - I was "sunk" so often that I christened my sub(hitherto sailing under no flag, as were the targets) "HMS Ignominious" -yet I was thoroughly hooked on this simple game, when it being shareware, after all, ran out of targets - I think my mate sank most of 'em!

Speaking of that, DiveDevil, I would never boast of my "victories" on any forum - as you point out "it's only a game".

My thanks, once again, to zuluDROOG and WFGood for their efforts on my behalf...I look forward to following up on their advice.

Sidmo
07-30-2005, 09:18 PM
Simple answer. Where the British, American, and Canadian navies had hundreds of Merchant ships each (If not thousands) at the beginning of the war, Germany had a few hundred maby.

Caseck73
07-31-2005, 02:46 AM
Ah, but I play in '43+ at 100% so I think I've lost more German U-boat men than allies I've sunk!

I still see their faces... *haunted stare*

Seriously though, the game does give you the hopeless perspective that the German's must have felt, trying to stem an overwhelming tide.

I can respect their bravery, but I don't have to respect the cause they fought for.

Flakwalker
07-31-2005, 05:01 PM
As previously was indicated by the developers, german side offer more action and more technical features on the matter.

A pacific side, either Japan or USA, wont offer to much action on short time, I remember that on Silent Hunter I spend hours on a Barracuda class only to find 2 Hikawamarus transports or if lucky a light cruisers task force. Historically US submarines make very important missions on that theather, 2 of them was the sunk of Japan most advanced aircraft carriers, the Taiho and Shinano, but this dont happen everytime, specially later on war altough there was a lot of destroyers and escort destroyers.

It depends of the sides included on a single package, this can be a balance between lot of action or little action and give a more extense gameplay.