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View Full Version : Pe-2 Film "Chronicle of the Dive Bomber"



leitmotiv
04-26-2006, 06:43 AM
I have had this on my list to buy for some time and ordered it today since the virtual Pe-2 is coming!

http://tinyurl.com/r43qm

FPSOLKOR
04-26-2006, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I have had this on my list to buy for some time and ordered it today since the virtual Pe-2 is coming!

http://tinyurl.com/r43qm
B\W film, with a few bugs but IT IS WORTH IT! Buy also these ones "² бо' ¸´ÑƒÑ" о´н¸ сÑ"?Ñ€¸º¸", "Ñ"оÑ€¿µ´оносÑ"*Ñ"" You won't regret a single cent. I would like to see your comment over these films when you will finish watching them!

Lodovik
04-26-2006, 08:12 AM
Russiandvd.com is nice enough to include long previews of most of the movies they're selling. And now I've got to order this one, as I absolutely have to know what heppens to the guy who wanders into the German's christmas party by mistake http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I've seen the Torpedo Bombers (http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=24115&genreid=&genresubid=) mentioned by FPSOLKOR and it's excellent, get that one too.

leitmotiv
04-26-2006, 01:37 PM
Hello, FPSOLKOR and Lodovik!---I'm afraid you will have to help me out, FPSOLKOR, because I cannot read Cyrillic! I will get the films, but I will need English translations! I have the torpedo bomber film, Lodovik, and I like it very much---"gritty," as the English love to put it. I am watching THEY FOUGHT FOR THE MOTHERLAND. I have found the recent pomposity of American films about the war (PRIVATE RYAN and BAND OF BROTHERS) rather annoying and much prefer these films, and WINTER WAR, which are more about endurance, adaption to war, and striving to live without positing a heavy-handed assumption of moral superiority and ponderous gravity. In sum, they are human, and very fine films.

If anybody is inclined to want build a big, super-detailed model of the Pe-2, check out the Modelik 1:33 scale card model. Cockpit, crew stations, and bomb-bays completely detailed. Unfortunately, the plastic Pe-2 models are not that good.

http://tinyurl.com/pqae7

faelas
04-26-2006, 02:05 PM
Would be very interesting to watch soviet war documentaries. I'll have to check this out.

Are they dubbed in English?

leitmotiv
04-26-2006, 02:12 PM
The torpedo bomber film is a drama based on a real Soviet Naval IL-4 torpedo bomber squadron. The DVD has subtitles in English. The Pe-2 VHS is only in Russian, I believe. THEY FOUGHT FOR THEIR MOTHERLAND is in DVD with subtitles or dubbing.

Crash_Moses
04-26-2006, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Hello, FPSOLKOR and Lodovik!---I'm afraid you will have to help me out, FPSOLKOR, because I cannot read Cyrillic! I will get the films, but I will need English translations! I have the torpedo bomber film, Lodovik, and I like it very much---"gritty," as the English love to put it. I am watching THEY FOUGHT FOR THE MOTHERLAND. I have found the recent pomposity of American films about the war (PRIVATE RYAN and BAND OF BROTHERS) rather annoying and much prefer these films, and WINTER WAR, which are more about endurance, adaption to war, and striving to live without positing a heavy-handed assumption of moral superiority and ponderous gravity. In sum, they are human, and very fine films.

If anybody is inclined to want build a big, super-detailed model of the Pe-2, check out the Modelik 1:33 scale card model. Cockpit, crew stations, and bomb-bays completely detailed. Unfortunately, the plastic Pe-2 models are not that good.

http://tinyurl.com/pqae7


I guess we all have our own prejudices... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

FPSOLKOR
04-26-2006, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Hello, FPSOLKOR and Lodovik!---I'm afraid you will have to help me out, FPSOLKOR, because I cannot read Cyrillic! I will get the films, but I will need English translations! I have the torpedo bomber film, Lodovik, and I like it very much---"gritty," as the English love to put it. I am watching THEY FOUGHT FOR THE MOTHERLAND. I have found the recent pomposity of American films about the war (PRIVATE RYAN and BAND OF BROTHERS) rather annoying and much prefer these films, and WINTER WAR, which are more about endurance, adaption to war, and striving to live without positing a heavy-handed assumption of moral superiority and ponderous gravity. In sum, they are human, and very fine films.

If anybody is inclined to want build a big, super-detailed model of the Pe-2, check out the Modelik 1:33 scale card model. Cockpit, crew stations, and bomb-bays completely detailed. Unfortunately, the plastic Pe-2 models are not that good.

http://tinyurl.com/pqae7

http://www.kinopoisk.ru/level/11/id_film/25108/
Not sure if it was ever translated to english

FPSOLKOR
04-26-2006, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Crash_Moses:

I guess we all have our own prejudices... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif
What exactly bothers you?

joeap
04-26-2006, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crash_Moses:

I guess we all have our own prejudices... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif
What exactly bothers you? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not sure, but I think he takes issue with leitmotiv's comments. BTW disagree concerning "Band of Brothers" it was far better than "Saving Private Ryan" and not pompus at all. I also saw "They Fought for the Motherland" and found it an excellent film...very gritty and realistic (well except for the "Tiger" tanks in summer 1942) in character development and the soldier's stories.

FPSOLKOR
04-26-2006, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
Not sure, but I think he takes issue with leitmotiv's comments. BTW disagree concerning "Band of Brothers" it was far better than "Saving Private Ryan" and not pompus at all. I also saw "They Fought for the Motherland" and found it an excellent film...very gritty and realistic (well except for the "Tiger" tanks in summer 1942) in character development and the soldier's stories.
As far as i can remember first combat trials of tigers were near Leningrad in the summer 1942. It ended in complete disaster. Our film industry also suffered serious drawback after 1991. Films made after that time are largely not worth it.

leitmotiv
04-26-2006, 03:16 PM
Well, Crash_Moses, if being indifferent to tosh by a third-rate director like Mr. Spielberg, who has managed to poison each film he has ever done which approaches greatness (SCHINDLER and MUNICH) and produced a woolly, fuzzy-headed melodrama of WWII (RYAN), I am indeed cheerfully prejudiced! And, lamentably, his heavy hand (and that of his equally leaden acolyte, Hanks) was manifest in the ponderous, lugubrious military soap opera BAND OF BROTHERS. Two relatively unknown recent U.S. war films beat the pants off of these pompous examples of simple complacency: HBO's A DISTANT TRUMPET about the Hurtgen Forest battle, and ARTS network's THE LOST BATTALION about a New York regiment in WWI, both of which are far superior films about Americans at war. RYAN and BROTHERS are tainted by the dubious ideas of the late Stephen Ambrose who uncunningly posited that the U.S. won WWII because we were morally superior to the Nazis. I have no doubt this is true, but he superciliously left out the many millions of the Soviet Union who broke the back of the Wehrmacht before the first American landed in Normandy. Instead of the dreary complacency of our moral superiority, we ought to have done a SAVING PRIVATE ROZHESTVENSKY to have shown our gratitude to those millions who broke the German military in the greatest meatgrinder in human history.

Crash_Moses
04-26-2006, 03:48 PM
lol...you left out "pretentious". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

A.K.Davis
04-26-2006, 03:49 PM
Perhaps you mean When Trumpets Fade? A good movie. Not great. It does not speak to the entirety of the war (not a mention of the Eastern Front, but perhaps you mean that, as this movie gives a very pessimistic and negative portrayal of the motivations behind personal bravery, it contrasts well and helps to bolster the "reality" of bombastic self-sacrifice portrayed in most Soviet films?). Nor does it even speak to the American experience in the war. It is set in the battle of the Huertgen Forest, but otherwise it is not a "true story." It is "gritty," not real. In that it shares much with Saving Private Ryan or some Soviet/Russian films about the war.

leitmotiv
04-26-2006, 04:31 PM
Stand corrected, humbly, Crash_Moses---the operative word is pretentious. Yes, A.K. Davis, it was WHEN TRUMPETS FADE. TRUMPETS and LOST are certainly not great, but they are fine films. TRUMPETS depicted the carnage of attrition warfare in a hellish place without flinching. Yes, Mr. Ambrose, the Western Front was not a perambulating moral drama as presented in RYAN or a touching fable about comradeship as in BROTHERS. There were times the W Front was as ugly as the E Front and the Hurtgen was one of those times. The film was certainly pessimistic, but there is little that is uplifting about attrition battles. The film, like LOST BATTALION, was devoid of comfortable parables. The scene which most annoyed me about RYAN was the parable of the Waffen SS man. This die-hard had just shot some of their own, they are unable to peel off some GIs to escort him back to the rear so they take a vote to decide what to do with him. At this point I was falling off my seat. The vote decides he is to be allowed to procede to the rear on his honor. Right. I grew up with ex-GIs and heard their stories as a boy while the memories were still fresh, hard, and painful. They would have shot that SS man without hesitation, but Spielberg's parable demanded this be treated according to the gospel of Ambrose: morally superior Yanks vote to decide matters and morally superior Yanks do not shoot prisoners. We have entered La La Land.

As for Soviet-era films, the two I described above, the torpedo bomber film, and MOTHERLAND, are not blustering propaganda. By the end of the torpedo bomber film, the squadron commander and his best pilots are all at the bottom of the Baltic. The film was a lyrical and brutal study of people facing terribly bad odds and suffering the consequences. I haven't seen the end of MOTHERLAND, but, again, it is an excellent study of people in a situation in which their odds of surviving are poor and how they deal with it. Not all Soviet-era film are Stalinist.

FPSOLKOR
04-26-2006, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Stand corrected, humbly, Crash_Moses---the operative word is pretentious. Yes, A.K. Davis, it was WHEN TRUMPETS FADE. TRUMPETS and LOST are certainly not great, but they are fine films. TRUMPETS depicted the carnage of attrition warfare in a hellish place without flinching. Yes, Mr. Ambrose, the Western Front was not a perambulating moral drama as presented in RYAN or a touching fable about comradeship as in BROTHERS. There were times the W Front was as ugly as the E Front and the Hurtgen was one of those times. The film was certainly pessimistic, but there is little that is uplifting about attrition battles. The film, like LOST BATTALION, was devoid of comfortable parables. The scene which most annoyed me about RYAN was the parable of the Waffen SS man. This die-hard had just shot some of their own, they are unable to peel off some GIs to escort him back to the rear so they take a vote to decide what to do with him. At this point I was falling off my seat. The vote decides he is to be allowed to procede to the rear on his honor. Right. I grew up with ex-GIs and heard their stories as a boy while the memories were still fresh, hard, and painful. They would have shot that SS man without hesitation, but Spielberg's parable demanded this be treated according to the gospel of Ambrose: morally superior Yanks vote to decide matters and morally superior Yanks do not shoot prisoners. We have entered La La Land.

As for Soviet-era films, the two I described above, the torpedo bomber film, and MOTHERLAND, are not blustering propaganda. By the end of the torpedo bomber film, the squadron commander and his best pilots are all at the bottom of the Baltic. The film was a lyrical and brutal study of people facing terribly bad odds and suffering the consequences. I haven't seen the end of MOTHERLAND, but, again, it is an excellent study of people in a situation in which their odds of surviving are poor and how they deal with it. Not all Soviet-era film are Stalinist.
I alo am quite unhappy about nowadays films about ww2 issued at both russia and us. Action in torpedo bombers is taking place at the Arctic area.
Action in @only experts to fly@ is almost completely taken from memories of HSU V. Popkov. He is shown as different heroes at different age and maturity.
I would also recomend german Stalingrad film.
BTW, last american film i watched with full attention was memphis belle, and befor that tora, tora, tora!

Crash_Moses
04-26-2006, 07:16 PM
Actually, I feel Ambrose painted American foreign policy in a very negative light in Flyboys and listed it as one of the leading reasons Japan felt it necessary to declare war. His description of atrocities committed in the Phillipines by American soldiers prior to the war was especially sobering.

And although all wars are, in essence, economic in nature I think WWII was, in many ways, a war of morals in light of the horrors of the holocaust and the 20 million who died on the Eastern Front (although Stalin must take credit for a large number of those). I don't think it would be very hard for any of the allied nations to take the moral high ground faced with that. Saving Private Ryan was an American Film with American actors direced by an American whose target audience was Americans. It makes me uneasy that this film should provoke such vehemence simply because of that. I don't think any of us should have to apologize for our nationality. I certainly won't.

And while I don't doubt that Americans were not complete angels on the battlefield (consider the scene earlier in the movie when two G.I.s pretend they don't know the Germans are surrending and shoot them in cold blood), I can see where a schoolteacher from a small town might get sick of killing fellow human beings.

(aside: the soldier the Americans let go at the radio station was Heer Continental Army and not Waffen SS. No worries. You're not the first to make that mistake, lad.) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But you've put serious thought into your conclusions and I shan't try to change your opinion (as if I could!), or at the least nudge it out of the extreme. However, I do think such strong passions should be reserved for loved ones and voting.

S!

leitmotiv
04-27-2006, 09:48 AM
What the hell? I did my graduate work in history ages ago and I have worked on screenplays with actors and directors---my opinions are quite mild compared to some of Spielberg's critics and an airing of ideas on film harms no one. I lived for several years in London and had to take on serried ranks of Labourites who loathed America (while dying for a green card), and I take second place to nobody for flying the flag, and I will freely express my disdain for a silly bit of cinema. By the way, my ideas about Ambrose came from a pontifical interview he granted Brian Lamb on C-SPAN where he stated the U.S. won the war because it was morally superior to the Nazis---certainly a unique view which probably would have made even FDR, Marshall, King, and Arnold roll their eyes. I am gleeful to be considered a lad by someone, since I am 53 yrs old. Geezer is more appropriate. Cheers. Thanks for the correction about the Arctic, FPSOLKOR.

joeap
04-27-2006, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by FPSOLKOR:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joeap:
Not sure, but I think he takes issue with leitmotiv's comments. BTW disagree concerning "Band of Brothers" it was far better than "Saving Private Ryan" and not pompus at all. I also saw "They Fought for the Motherland" and found it an excellent film...very gritty and realistic (well except for the "Tiger" tanks in summer 1942) in character development and the soldier's stories.
As far as i can remember first combat trials of tigers were near Leningrad in the summer 1942. It ended in complete disaster. Our film industry also suffered serious drawback after 1991. Films made after that time are largely not worth it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I don't know about modern Russian films..."They Fought for the Motherland" was made in the 70s and actually had good special effects for the time. However it was far more important the very good story and the way it depicted combat in the very desperate summer of 1942, in the Don river area IIRC. The second Soviet film on WWII that I saw...first being "The Childhood of Ivan." Oh and FPSOLKOR I also liked Mephis Belle and Tora Tora Tora.

leitmotiv you make some excellent points...

joeap
04-27-2006, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
Actually, I feel Ambrose painted American foreign policy in a very negative light in Flyboys and listed it as one of the leading reasons Japan felt it necessary to declare war. His description of atrocities committed in the Phillipines by American soldiers prior to the war was especially sobering.



Err don't understand this post...the nasty work the US did in the Phillipines took place mostly after the Spanish-American War and was hardly a factor in Japan's declaration of war which I think was due to economic factors (the oil embargo) partly due to Japan's own policy in China.

Otherwise agree with what you said.

Crash_Moses
04-27-2006, 02:30 PM
You are correct. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I meant them as two separate examples. They are unrelated. Sorry...

FPSOLKOR
04-27-2006, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
"They Fought for the Motherland" was made in the 70s and actually had good special effects for the time. However it was far more important the very good story and the way it depicted combat in the very desperate summer of 1942, in the Don river area IIRC. The second Soviet film on WWII that I saw...first being "The Childhood of Ivan." Oh and FPSOLKOR I also liked Mephis Belle and Tora Tora Tora.

leitmotiv you make some excellent points...
Well, people who used to write scenarios and those who used to shoot those films were ex-soldiers, who well knew what happened then.
Out of new ones i could recomend @company 9@
BTW, how did you like "Battle of Britain" out in 1967?

Can anybody tell me other films about airwars issued in the west, which i could have missed?

joeap
04-28-2006, 03:25 AM
Ok Crash_Moses I mash stuff in my posts too.

FPSOLKOR, really liked that version of Battle of Britain even with the small "mistakes" in the planes used they were actual aircraft. Can't tell you about other air films...most modern films are crud as we've said.

leitmotiv
04-28-2006, 05:30 PM
For a country that depends so on airpower the U.S. has few really interesting flying films. For WWII, I'd suggest GOD IS MY CO-PILOT because the tactics are remarkably realistic for a film made during the war. For my money, our greatest WWII air film was TWELVE O'CLOCK HIGH---be sure it is the film with Gregory Peck, not the 1960's TV series. THE WAR LOVER is interesting. COMMAND DECISION is a filmed play, but it touches on the 8th AF bombing campaign. THE TUSKEGEE AIRMEN, the 1995 TV film, is good and it is a great story about our black fighter pilots (there is a new film on the subject in the works right now along with a 60 million epic on the WWI U.S. Lafayette Escadrille titled FLYBOYS which will be released in October---it is looking really good). The original WWII documentary MEMPHIS BELLE directed by William Wyler is far more interesting than the recent theatrical release. A good Korean War film is THE BRIDGES AT TOKO-RI. Strangely enough there has never been a film about the F-105 pilots and the war over North Vietnam. THIRTY SECONDS OVER TOKYO is a propaganda film but has merit. I can't think of a really good WWII film about the naval aviators. The real story of Midway would make one heck of a film. If I can think of more, I'll add to the list.

leitmotiv
04-28-2006, 06:48 PM
Oh yeah---for my money the all time best English language flying war film is THE BLUE MAX.

FPSOLKOR
05-01-2006, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Oh yeah---for my money the all time best English language flying war film is THE BLUE MAX.
And try to find @Normandie-niemen@ film, also quite interesting is a @hunt for unicorn@, which is based on real life stuff, but the end was different, of course.

Not necessarily about aviation, but still worth a look:
@in august 1944@
@17 moments of spring@
@father of a soldier@
@iron cross@ from germany
@night witches in the scy@
@Last Hill, The @
@Moscow Skies @
@Submarine T-9@
http://film.arjlover.net/film/

leitmotiv
05-01-2006, 11:38 AM
Thanks for the information, FPSOLKOR! Will look for all. By the way, RED ORCHESTRA, new online E Front land sim, is pretty good---for the most part rigorously authentic. Tanks are really good---although there are some inaccuracies (all tanks have commander/gunners, even ones which had commanders and gunners, but the system works great for the early KVs, T-34s, and the T-60s). Remembered another winner: English TV film titled PIECE OF CAKE is excellent (they had to use Spitfires instead of Hurricanes because when it was made [ca. 1990] there was only one flying Hurry left). It is about an English fighter squadron from September 1939 until September 1940. Raised a furor in the UK because ex-Battle of Britain pilots loathed the less-than-glorious picture of The Few. Based on a novel by Derek Robinson who had been in the RAF and based all his books on the lore he learned from the WWII pilots. In fact, Robinson's novels are all very good---check them out:

http://tinyurl.com/kej2j

Highly recommend DAMNED GOOD SHOW, PIECE OF CAKE, and GOSHAWK SQUADRON. Cheers!

FPSOLKOR
05-05-2006, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I have had this on my list to buy for some time and ordered it today since the virtual Pe-2 is coming!

http://tinyurl.com/r43qm http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=22

Take a look here, might be usefull

leitmotiv
05-07-2006, 05:23 PM
Thanks for the great tip, FPSOLKOR. Am enjoying the Peshka a great deal. Am also becoming proficient with the Soviet anti-tank rifle in RED ORCHESTRA. Too bad the tank AI is chaotic.