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robban75
12-02-2004, 12:45 PM
According to my testings this machine seems to be quite a bit off from historical performance numbers. Bumping into these machine online is rather common, even more common than bumping into Yak-9U's or Fw 190's.
I will show you some of my test numbers and compare them to RL data.

The so called "standard prototype" which is the one(I believe) modelled in game was the most powerful of the I-185 prototypes. It had a topspeed of 600km/h at SL and managed 650km/h at 6100m.
However in game it manages 614km/h at SL, making it the fastest prop in the entire sim actually. At 6100m it manages 685km/h, quite a bit faster than the real machine.
As for climbrate, it managed to reach 5000m with short term boost in 4 minutes and 42 seconds, quite a respectable time back in those days. However, in game it reaches 5000m in 3 minutes and 40 seconds.

Can this be fixed, or should I get a hold of better reference material? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

robban75
12-02-2004, 12:45 PM
According to my testings this machine seems to be quite a bit off from historical performance numbers. Bumping into these machine online is rather common, even more common than bumping into Yak-9U's or Fw 190's.
I will show you some of my test numbers and compare them to RL data.

The so called "standard prototype" which is the one(I believe) modelled in game was the most powerful of the I-185 prototypes. It had a topspeed of 600km/h at SL and managed 650km/h at 6100m.
However in game it manages 614km/h at SL, making it the fastest prop in the entire sim actually. At 6100m it manages 685km/h, quite a bit faster than the real machine.
As for climbrate, it managed to reach 5000m with short term boost in 4 minutes and 42 seconds, quite a respectable time back in those days. However, in game it reaches 5000m in 3 minutes and 40 seconds.

Can this be fixed, or should I get a hold of better reference material? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

faustnik
12-02-2004, 12:59 PM
But, the cockpit looks really cool! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

robban75
12-02-2004, 01:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
But, the cockpit looks really cool! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It sure does, the whole 3D model looks fantastic, certainly one of the best made models in the game. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Kwiatos
12-02-2004, 01:42 PM
Yea there is still many planes which have over/undermodelled climb rate or maximum speed.

Enofinu
12-02-2004, 02:58 PM
how about it turnspeed? isnt that quite heavy fighter with not so big wing area? it suer does turn wildly.

robban75
12-02-2004, 03:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enofinu:
how about it turnspeed? isnt that quite heavy fighter with not so big wing area? it suer does turn wildly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It had a turntime of 22 seconds at 1000m, which is like a D-9. It was built with a high wingloading in order to achieve high speed. Turningabilities wasn't of highest priority. It turns well in-game though.

Daiichidoku
12-02-2004, 03:14 PM
It doesnt seem to have a great turn rate, anyhow, but does everything else quite well

Quite amazingly, actually, for a 1942 plane...but it has that critical weakness, an uncomfortable throtle lever

Zen--
12-02-2004, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
...but it has that critical weakness, an uncomfortable throtle lever <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lmao

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Daiichidoku
12-03-2004, 02:22 AM
a great way to get whatever ac type you want in FB/PF...

1 find someone whos grandfather flew the type you have in mind, even if it flew in limited numbers for a few weeks and was withdrawn from use (dont worry if there is limited data, these things work themselves out, look at the 109Z, it has absolutely NO flight data this does not have to be a prob in FB/PF)

2 get that grandson to go and be Olegs dear friend

3 wait 2 weeks for the patch, or the single dev it's dependant on to get well, whichever comes first

4 rack up a huge score in online df servers, showing all your incredible prowess in a truly demanding fighting machine...enjoy!


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

triggerhappyfin
12-03-2004, 05:29 AM
Funny thing with these threads about uber planes is....when I read them and get somewhat conviced they are uber and try them out online....they are not uber!! I sure get shot down quickly in dogfight?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Where is the uberness then? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I think its the pilot not the plane!
This I-185 is like a bullemagnet to me, a flyin coffin http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

The most planes are well presented within the game - and let´s keep in mind it´s a game not RL. Heck the RL isn´t fair! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

robban75
12-03-2004, 06:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by triggerhappyfin:
Funny thing with these threads about uber planes is....when I read them and get somewhat conviced they are uber and try them out online....they are not uber!! I sure get shot down quickly in dogfight?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Where is the uberness then? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I think its the pilot not the plane!
This I-185 is like a bullemagnet to me, a flyin coffin http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

The most planes are well presented within the game - and let´s keep in mind it´s a game not RL. Heck the RL isn´t fair! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The I-185 is to be kept fast. I guess most planes in 1942 would outturn it, apart from the Fw 190. In '44 and onwards it should be a good enough turner but not good enough to make sustained turnfights with Spitfires or Yak and La's. On the other hand it's fast enough to keep even with the best of the late war fighters, at least. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

triggerhappyfin
12-03-2004, 06:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by triggerhappyfin:
Funny thing with these threads about uber planes is....when I read them and get somewhat conviced they are uber and try them out online....they are not uber!! I sure get shot down quickly in dogfight?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Where is the uberness then? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I think its the pilot not the plane!
This I-185 is like a bullemagnet to me, a flyin coffin http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

The most planes are well presented within the game - and let´s keep in mind it´s a game not RL. Heck the RL isn´t fair! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The I-185 is to be kept fast. I guess most planes in 1942 would outturn it, apart from the Fw 190. In '44 and onwards it should be a good enough turner but not good enough to make sustained turnfights with Spitfires or Yak and La's. On the other hand it's fast enough to keep even with the best of the late war fighters, at least. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That´s it then http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif. It´s the famous "pilot not the plane" thing again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

LLv34_Flanker
12-03-2004, 10:37 AM
S!

When first time intorducedinto IL-2 world this bird possessed a Chobham(tm) armor resilient to any German made projectile, or when hit spewed out fake smoke to make attacker believe damage was critical. But it was still fully capable of fighting. Also did it climb, fly and other things way better than anything else http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Get the pic? I could live without some planes in the game that were made in VERY limited numbers, hardly saw any action nor played any significant role in the war. There are a few of them along with I-185. Some of the original and first designs even today suffer from limited DM or other defincies/inaccuracies and will likely not to be fixed. Anyway the effort and work of the modeller is to be honored and saluted, but as of historical side any server having these "what-if" planes are not in my favorites list http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tipo_Man
12-03-2004, 10:57 AM
Well,
If you try to discuss this planes yuo have to be very carefull about what your attitude is, since some members of Oleg's team has special attitude to it...
I tryed to discuss it's performance some time ago and was flamed by russians who claimed that the plane should be in the game and should perform this way , since it was ready for production but "Stupid Stalin" canceled it...
And since forum search does not work for me , (or I'm so stupid I cannot make it work) I'll quote myself again:

This post is about overmodelled performance and historical inaccuracy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I hope most of you already you know that I-185 was never accepted into service and never flew a combat mission. The reasons for this are quite contradictory . Most of the russians nowadays consider this was due to "stupid Stalin" who on his own decided to stop this perfect plane from production, or due to lobbying from Polikarpov's enemies and so on....after viewing Oleg's description in 2.01 readme I felt like he was saying: " You see , we've managed to build a superb fighter which outperformed everything else but due to Stalin it was never accepted into servece".
Was this really the case? Was really I-185 ready for serial production?

M-71 was never put into serial production even years later. Other planes intended for this engine never made it (there were quite a few).
I can provide a lot of sources about I-185 development and problems persueing it. When I read them I came to the conclusion that cancelling I-185 was the most logical solution.But this is my opinion.

Now lets suppose Stalin have decided to build I-185 M-71 .
I have several sources about its performance during development. for example :

23 ¸ÑŽля 1942 .˜.¨. ¿¸Ñ?л ¿¸ÑÑŒмо ³о´? N -20/2847 ˜.'.СÑ"?л¸ну.
' ¿оря´ºµ ¸нÑ"оÑ€м?Ñ"*¸¸ ´оºл?´Ñ"²?ÑŽ: ¿о ¿л?ну о¿Ñ"Ñ"но³о сÑ"Ñ€о¸Ñ"µльсÑ"²? 1941 ³о´?, ºонсÑ"руºÑ"оÑ€ом Пол¸º?Ñ€¿о²Ñ"м ²Ñ"¿ÑƒÑ"µн о´номµÑÑ"нÑ"' ¸ÑÑ"Ñ€µб¸Ñ"µлÑŒ ˜-185 с моÑ"оÑ€ом œ-71 (²злµÑ"но' моÑ"носÑ"ью 2000 л.с. ¸ моÑ"носÑ"ью н? ²Ñ"соÑ"µ 5000 м - 1700 л.с.), ºоÑ"оÑ€Ñ"', со³л?сно оÑ"Ñ"µÑ"? ¿о со²мµÑÑ"нÑ"м з?²о´Ñº¸м ¸ ³осу´?рсÑ"²µннÑ"м ¸Ñ¿Ñ"Ñ"?н¸Ñм ¿оº?з?л Ñлµ´ÑƒÑŽÑ"¸µ ´?ннÑ"µ:
¿олµÑ"нÑ"' ²µÑ 3480 º³
м?ºÑ¸м?лÑŒн?я сºоÑ€осÑ"ÑŒ у зµмл¸ 521 ºм/Ñ"?с
м?ºÑ¸м?лÑŒн?я сºоÑ€осÑ"ÑŒ н? ²Ñ"соÑ"µ
500 м с Ñ"орс?¶µм 556 ºм/Ñ"?с
м?ºÑ¸м?лÑŒн?я сºоÑ€осÑ"ÑŒ н? ²Ñ"соÑ"µ
6170 м 630 ºм/Ñ"?с
'оору¶µн¸µ ноÑ€м?лÑŒноµ
2 ¿ÑƒлµмµÑ"? º?л¸бÑ€? 12,7 мм 550 ¿?Ñ"Ñ€оно²
2 ¿ÑƒлµмµÑ"? º?л¸бÑ€? 7,62 мм 1500 ¿?Ñ"Ñ€оно²
'оору¶µн¸µ ² ¿µÑ€µ³Ñ€ÑƒзºÑƒ
ИомбÑ" 500 º³ ¸л¸ 8 С-82.
*Ñ"оÑ" ¶µ с?молµÑ" ˜-185 с моÑ"оÑ€ом œ-82 н? со²мµÑÑ"нÑ"Ñ... з?²о´Ñº¸Ñ... ¸ ³осу´?рсÑ"²µннÑ"Ñ... ¸Ñ¿Ñ"Ñ"?н¸ÑÑ... ¿оº?з?л Ñлµ´ÑƒÑŽÑ"¸µ ´?ннÑ"µ ¿о сºоÑ€осÑ"ям:
м?ºÑ¸м?лÑŒн?я сºоÑ€осÑ"ÑŒ у зµмл¸ 515 ºм/Ñ"?с
м?ºÑ¸м?лÑŒн?я сºоÑ€осÑ"ÑŒ н? ²Ñ"соÑ"µ
200 м с Ñ"орс?¶µм 549 ºм/Ñ"?с
м?ºÑ¸м?лÑŒн?я сºоÑ€осÑ"ÑŒ н? ²Ñ"соÑ"µ
6470 м 615 ºм/Ñ"?с (927,311)


or

I-185 M-71
see level top speed(without WEP): 521 km/h
max speed at 500m with WEP: 556km/h
..

the final tests conducted in Oct1942 and Jan 1943 showed

Jan1943 oct1942
See level max speed 560/600 537/577
œ?ºÑ. н? 1 ³Ñ€. 'Ñ"соÑ"носÑ"¸ 648/3200 637/3380
œ?ºÑ. н? 2 ³Ñ€. 'Ñ"соÑ"носÑ"¸ 680/6100 667/6100
turn time 22-23 21-22

Now here is my question. What made you include I-185 M-71 as a 1942 plane !?

Even its military trial were conducted in 1943! And even Polikarpov asked for starting serial production in 1943!
Now if we suppose that serial producton was started it would have appeared no earlier than summer-autuomn 1943.
Of course if the M-71 by some kind of miracle had gotten finished and ready for production....
Just for comparison F4U tests started in 1940 if I remember correclty, but it's not given as a 1940 plane...

And what make you think that serial planes would have performed like the prototype did?
For example the protype of LaGG-3 on military trials in 1940 showed max speed of 600km/h while serial planes even two years later had max speed of 550-560km/h.

So I really like the plane(and especially the cockpit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif) but now it radically contradicts to your attempt of historical accuracy.

I

robban75
12-03-2004, 11:16 AM
Nice read, thanks Tipo_Man. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Planes are being avaliable the year it made its first flight. This is why the P-51B is regarded as a '42 aircraft. Same goes for the Ta 152 which is avaliable in '44.

I have no problem with the I-185 being in the sim, realistic or not. However, I feel that it (like every other plane) should perform as close to the real thing as possible. Some planes in the sim are almost spot on in speed and climb, but some are very overmodelled, and the I-185 appears to be one of them.

clint-ruin
12-03-2004, 06:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tipo_Man:
And what make you think that serial planes would have performed like the prototype did?
For example the protype of LaGG-3 on military trials in 1940 showed max speed of 600km/h while serial planes even two years later had max speed of 550-560km/h. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What mysterious event do you think happened to the western based aircraft manufacturing capability of the SSSR between 1940 and 1942?

Daiichidoku
12-03-2004, 08:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
What mysterious event do you think happened to the western based aircraft manufacturing capability of the SSSR between 1940 and 1942? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Germans quickly captured or destroyed all ofthe comfortable throttle lever factorieshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
12-03-2004, 09:02 PM
First...~thanks~ again Oleg for I~185..

Military Aviation Enthusiasts everywhere love ALL planes military. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Real Life Aces jumped at the Chance to fly experimental and prototype combat aircraft, either friendly or captured enemy. ...Real Life Aces that is...


-----------------------

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If you study Russian people, you find "uncomfortable throttle" is their indirect way of saying the engine was not ready for production.

Readme does NOT say "uncomfortable flap lever" or "uncomfortable rudder pedal." The Readme draws subtle attention to the direct Pilot-Engine interface--the throttle. There is a logic here, born of centuries of living under Imperial Czars, Stalinist Czars, and Xtreme censorship.

"uncomfortable engine" could have worked, possibly. Indeed, an engine facing production problems would certainly be an uncomfortable engine, the designers feeling the pressure and under discomfort, the pilots not having the reliabilty they would like would feel uncomfortable in the air, etc...

LEXX_Luthor
12-03-2004, 10:31 PM
My source (Bill Gunsten) gives exactly 685km/hr at 6.1km atltitude, but only 577km/hr at sealevel. Tests not described or dated. Tipo's source gives 680km/hr at 6.1km if I read it correctly. The only problem Tipo seems to have here is our in-game 1942 date which any honest flight simmer cares little about--we do our own dating research. One would assume those who can setup a dogfighter server can research dates. Perhaps not.

Gunsten gives 5 minutes to 4.7km -- worse than your source robban, although Gunsten fails to offer boost or no-boost data. Your climb rate claim is interesting, and if true, would this put our I~185 as climbing faster at sealevel than our K~4? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

robban, 14km/hr out of 600km/hr is a rather small discrepancy--insignificant in game terms as well as real life air combat. Also note that your source gives fewer significant digits than your detailed 614km/hr --think-- what is the chance of two quoted random numbers both having Zero as last digit? The chance is 1/100. I know few if any simmers here at *this* webboard care about sig figs, but Oleg does, thankfully. I will have to do a climb test, but with that one possible exception, so far I~185 looks pretty spot on as discussed here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif