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XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 09:26 PM
Look at all this little holes all over the place...gotta be P-47 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/germany/tiger_02.jpg


Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 09:26 PM
Look at all this little holes all over the place...gotta be P-47 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/germany/tiger_02.jpg


Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 09:29 PM
Maybe...ran outta fuel?

Armour piercing shells can leave little holes...too.

--------------- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 09:31 PM
actually, judging from the numeruous holes I think it was made by a ShKas machinegun. poor german tank soldiers had no chance. but if you notice, the bullets passed all the way thru the tiger. I believe the russian soldiers were aiming at the infantry behind. the tiger just happened to be there.



http://home.wanadoo.nl/wana.mail1/Op****/WurgerwhinerLogo.jpg

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close you eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 09:39 PM
Ankanor wrote:
- actually, judging from the numeruous holes I think
- it was made by a ShKas machinegun. poor german tank
- soldiers had no chance. but if you notice, the
- bullets passed all the way thru the tiger. I believe
- the russian soldiers were aiming at the infantry
- behind. the tiger just happened to be there.
-

Could have been Yak3 as well...straffed to death? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 09:42 PM
if it was Yak 3 it would use its main gun and blast the whole group of Tigers, the accompanying infantry and bury them in the pits from the near misses



http://home.wanadoo.nl/wana.mail1/Op****/WurgerwhinerLogo.jpg

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close you eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 10:06 PM
All in one pass? Dang

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 10:11 PM
Now hang on a second'as i recall it was stated 75mm AP rounds fired by M3-Sherman tanks bounced off of TigerII's like ping pong ball's and your saying this damage was caused by 8 50.calibur machine guns?.....Don't think so tim!!

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 10:12 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 10:13 PM
It looks like to me the Tiger fell into the ocean and those holes are just barnacles.

http://www.indelibleinc.com/kubrick/films/fmj/images/fmj.gif


When you get to hell, tell 'em SnowsFoot sent you

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 10:20 PM
jlkemling wrote:
- Now hang on a second'as i recall it was stated 75mm
- AP rounds fired by M3-Sherman tanks bounced off of
- TigerII's like ping pong ball's and your saying this
- damage was caused by 8 50.calibur machine
- guns?.....Don't think so tim!!
-
-

that happened because of the construction of the tiger. A TIger never stood facing the enemy tanks with the front but always standing there with one edge of the front pointing at the enemies. it was constructed to fight that way so the heavy projectiles always hit in an angle where they'll bounce off.

that looked kind of like that:

http://www.tigerpanzer.de/tiger1/pics/100.jpg


that's why lighter guns coming in from another angle can actually cause damage but not tiny ones like .50s

http://www.just-pooh.com/images/eten.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 10:28 PM
like what gershy?

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 10:33 PM
Looks like someone missed the Tiger vs P-47 thread./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


jlkemling wrote:
- Now hang on a second'as i recall it was stated 75mm
- AP rounds fired by M3-Sherman tanks bounced off of
- TigerII's like ping pong ball's and your saying this
- damage was caused by 8 50.calibur machine
- guns?.....Don't think so tim!!
-
-



http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/white-dickeautos.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 10:34 PM
Could have been Mk-108 incendiary ammo as well - friendly fire /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 10:43 PM
It's difficult to determine what the small black dots are around the driver's viewport. They could be holes. More likely it has something to do with the light on dark paint scheme which I assume is camoflage. Perhaps the dots are intentional, as in the popular 'attack scheme' panzer camoflage that broke up large areas of camoflage paint with dots of colors from adjoining colors of paint. Or it could be unintentional where the light paint was chipped or shot off of the darker anti-magnetic coating (zimmerit) that you can easily see on the turret.

Just some ideas. For all I know, it was just crud from a really bad scan job.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 11:06 PM
No that Tiger fell apart due very bad maintenance./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


Kimura

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 11:14 PM
Must have been Tom Hanks with a BAR.

Then on the second day, it was made bug free, and He saw that it was good.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 11:14 PM
Armor Specifications for the Tiger I

Hull front 100mm (3.94 in.) @24 degrees

Hull Side Upper 80mm (3.15in)@0 degrees

Hull side Lower 60mm (2.36in)@0 degrees

Hull Rear 80mm (3.15in)@8 degrees

Hull Top 25mm (0.98in)@ 90 degrees

Hull Bottom 25mm (0.98in)@ 90 degrees

Turret Front 100mm (3.94in)@ 8 degrees

Gun Mantlet 120mm (4.72in)@0 degrees

Turret Sides 80mm (3.15in)@0 degrees

Turret Rear 80mm (3.15in)@ 0 degrees

Turret Top 25mm 0.98in later increased to 40-45mm (1.57-1.77in@81-90degree's

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 11:15 PM
I don't see how any AC MG or cannon could take out a tiger or any heavy tank. I have herd of shooting behind the tank on a hard surface and bouncing rounds into the engine, but this had to be pretty difficult. As far as going through the armor plate I'd say not a chance in hell.



<center> http://www.4yourfuture.net/handshake.gif


"Altitude, speed, maneuver, fire!"-The "formula of Terror" of Aleksandr Pokryshkin, Three times awarded the rank of Hero of the Soviet Union

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 11:21 PM
After the description of that site, that Tiger was destroyed ib Hungary. In the backround the ground looks very raked up, maybe some kind of artillery.

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


Kimura

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 11:23 PM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- like what gershy?
-
you don't see the picture of the Tiger i posted to show its combat position?



http://www.just-pooh.com/images/eten.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 11:26 PM
No mate, no pics lol...is this a tricky question?

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 11:28 PM
Gershy wrote

A TIger never stood facing the enemy tanks with the front but always standing there with one edge of the front pointing at the enemies. it was constructed to fight that way so the heavy projectiles always hit in an angle where they'll bounce off.

-----------

Gershy from where you took such a statement?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


Kimura



Message Edited on 07/01/0311:30PM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 11:30 PM
Most never subcomed to battle damage they either broke down or just ran out of fuel...their range was only a little over 100km and that at the most economical speed!

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 11:57 PM
Ran outta gas. every picture that i see a tiger that ran outta gas looks similar to that or had engine problem. Unless its suspension craped out. which i sawin this neat pics on how a crapped suspension looks like.

http://www.panzer-vi.fsnet.co.uk/lost2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 12:19 AM
It was rocks


I have it on good authority that rocks thrown from above could easily damage a tiger tank .. they often went right down the exhaust stack and blew the engine.



Also French resistance youths use to "skip" stones at passing Tiger tanks which would bounce up underneath and damage the weak underside of the track mechanism.



Furthermore it is a well known fact that throw enough rocks at any tank and it will break through the armor eventually. Afterall look at the Grand Canyon, htat was dug out by a little stream of water.

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 12:55 AM
WTE_Galway wrote:
- It was rocks
-
-


No.... it was spit. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/minister.jpg


http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 01:11 AM
This is correct.

SnowsFoot wrote:
- It looks like to me the Tiger fell into the ocean
- and those holes are just barnacles.
-
<img
- src="http://www.indelibleinc.com/kubrick/films/fmj
- /images/fmj.gif">
-
-
- When you get to hell, tell 'em SnowsFoot sent you
-



<center> http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/165583/Juggy.jpg
</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 01:27 AM
there is anecdotal evidence of very small children with packets of gravel disabling a tiger

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 01:43 AM
Actually, it looks like the Tiger has been involved in a nearmiss from either a bomb or heavy artillery, would explain the dents... And these looks like dents since the open hatches indicate the crew survived but the right track was blown away..
But...... I wasn't there and didn't see it happen.... I was actually undercover and busy helping the germans constructing the 190-series cockpit. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 01:56 AM
I read a lot about tanks some years ago. i saw some videos too. they moved the tigers into this position cause they found out that it is better to protect them. a tiger has quite a lot of straight lines. not like other tanks for example where the parts are put in a way to make the bullets lip off (dunno how to say that) a tiger has a nearly straight front part where the bulltes can hit in a much better angle. that's why they used to turn them so the front edge faced the enemy.

KIMURA wrote:
-
- Gershy from where you took such a statement?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
-
- <img
- src="http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01
- 011.jpg">
-
-
- Kimura
-

did a little search and found this: it's german but i can translate it if you want to. just not now. have to go to bed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Trotz dieser starken Auslegung des Panzerschutzes der Wanne war der Tiger im Gefecht durch andere Kampfpanzer zu knacken. Bereits auf eine Entfernung von 1.500 Metern gelang es russischen T-34 einen Tiger seitlich erfolgreich anzugreifen, wenn die abgefeuerten Geschosse in einem Winkel von 90 Grad auf die Panzerung auftrafen. Die Seitenpanzerung wurde durch die russischen Granaten durchschlagen und ein Tiger war dann oftmals mit einem Treffer vernichtet oder außer Gefecht gesetzt. Die Tiger-Besatzungen stellten deshalb bei Feindberührung den Panzer schr¤g zum Gegner. Diese seitliche Stellung wurde von den Panzerbesatzungen "Mahlzeiten" genannt. Die Positionen, die nach einem Uhrenzifferblatt benannt wurden hießen, 4.30, 7.30, 1.30 und 10.30 Uhr. Stand ein Tiger in dieser Position zum Gegner, war dieser nur schwer zu knacken. Granaten die in einem Winkel von bis zu 20 Grad auf die Panzerwanne des Tigers aufschlugen, prallten ab. Je nach Aufschlags- bzw. Abprallpunkt an der Wanne, konnten die panzerbrechenden Geschosse auf die Oberseite des Tiger-Panzers einschlagen und diesen schwer besch¤digen. Dies war aber eher selten, da die Tigerkonstruktion kaum Granatenfallen aufwies. œber Seitenschürzen zum Schutz vor seitlichen Treffern verfügte der Tiger nicht. Es wurde auf die starke Seitenpanzerung der Wannenkonstruktion vertraut"


Message Edited on 07/02/0301:12AM by Gershy

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 02:01 AM
How can nobody realise the truth?
The ants did it!
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"The show must go on..."

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 05:43 AM
i think its one of two things:

it was nocked out by something big, no 50 cal, or ran out of gas and then some yahooos played shoot the tiger with hand held weapons

or


its barnicles from being in the ocean



further study revealed the whole valley flooded and when the water receeded it was little with barnicle covered tigers.

<center>http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/jcs-gc-il2.gif </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 06:02 AM
alternatively


its not broken at all



its sulking

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 06:25 AM
Looks like dented Zimmerit layer.

Again, another German wonder weapon that didnt workout !



Message Edited on 07/02/0305:49AM by BAnderss

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 07:40 AM
All right. Here it is, courtesy of the crappy Babelbabelbabel fish Tranaslator:

"Despite this strong design of the armor protection of the tub the tiger in combat was to be cracked by other battle tanks. Already on a distance of 1,500 meters it succeeded successfully to attack Russian T-34 a tiger laterally, if the fired projectiles in an angle of 90 degrees hit armoring. The side armor by the Russian shells to pierce and a tiger was then often with a hit destroyed or except combat set. The tiger crews placed therefore during enemy contact the tank diagonally to the opponent. This lateral position became from the tank crews?Mahlzeiten? called. The positions, which were designated after a clock dial were called, 4,30, 7,30, 1,30 and 10,30 o'clock conditions a tiger in this position to the opponent, was only difficult this to crack. Shells in an angle of up to 20 degrees on the tank hull of the tiger impacted, reflected. Depending upon impact and/or point of reflecting at the tub, the armor-piercing projectiles could hit on the top side of the tiger tank and damage this with difficulty. This was however rather rare, since the tiger construction exhibited hardly shell traps. Side aprons to the protection from lateral hits the tiger did not have. One trusted to the tub construction in the strong side armor "

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p39s.jpg


Death is just nature's way of telling you to watch your airspeed.

http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612345111

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 07:58 AM
tsisqua wrote:
- All right. Here it is, courtesy of the crappy
- Babelbabelbabel fish Tranaslator:
-
- "Despite this strong design of the armor protection
- of the tub the tiger in combat was to be cracked by
- other battle tanks. Already on a distance of 1,500
- meters it succeeded successfully to attack Russian
- T-34 a tiger laterally, if the fired projectiles in
- an angle of 90 degrees hit armoring. The side armor
- by the Russian shells to pierce and a tiger was then
- often with a hit destroyed or except combat set. The
- tiger crews placed therefore during enemy contact
- the tank diagonally to the opponent. This lateral
- position became from the tank crews?Mahlzeiten?
- called. The positions, which were designated after a
- clock dial were called, 4,30, 7,30, 1,30 and 10,30
- o'clock conditions a tiger in this position to the
- opponent, was only difficult this to crack. Shells
- in an angle of up to 20 degrees on the tank hull of
- the tiger impacted, reflected. Depending upon impact
- and/or point of reflecting at the tub, the
- armor-piercing projectiles could hit on the top side
- of the tiger tank and damage this with difficulty.
- This was however rather rare, since the tiger
- construction exhibited hardly shell traps. Side
- aprons to the protection from lateral hits the tiger
- did not have. One trusted to the tub construction in
- the strong side armor "


given the lack or rounded armor T34 style or sloped armor panther style it is just common sense really, optimise deflection of incoming AP by angling the tank so a corner faced the attacker,

combinine that with a good defensive formation where tanks protect each others vulnerable sides and you are looking pretty good

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 09:20 AM
georgeo76 wrote:
- I don't see how any AC MG or cannon could take out a
- tiger or any heavy tank. I have herd of shooting
- behind the tank on a hard surface and bouncing
- rounds into the engine, but this had to be pretty
- difficult. As far as going through the armor plate
- I'd say not a chance in hell.

Here you go this is what a 40mm Vickers S cannon does to a tiger

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/Scan10001.JPG


No1RAAF_Pourshot

XO No1RAAF

http://www.froggy.com.au/edinkulelija/no1raaf/image/crest.gif


some are the hunters the rest are the hunted

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 09:27 AM
I also read that if your gun did'nt kill the tiger you could just shake your fist at it, thus getting the desired result.

No1RAAF_Pourshot

XO No1RAAF

http://www.froggy.com.au/edinkulelija/no1raaf/image/crest.gif


some are the hunters the rest are the hunted

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 09:31 AM
Hi Gershy thanks for posting. I know that site.


Die Tiger-Besatzungen stellten deshalb bei Feindberührung den Panzer schr¤g zum Gegner. Diese seitliche Stellung wurde von den Panzerbesatzungen "Mahlzeiten" genannt.

That "alignment" was related to the chassis not to the turret.






Kimura





http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


Kimura



Message Edited on 07/02/0309:34AM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 11:40 AM
Mice, that must have been it
The Jerries need to get a Tom :-)