PDA

View Full Version : FULL REAL and multiple opponents



jayhall0315
10-30-2008, 04:12 PM
Hey guys - Recently got back from a trip down south and getting ready to head back to the Lobby for some fun tonight or tomorrow but I have a problem I need to learn how to overcome. When I fly on open pits or closed pits with external views I can keep track of several guys at once and as I dive or attack one guy I have a good idea of where the others are and usually do quite well.

Problem is, on full real servers with no icons or external views, if I fight two or more guys, as soon as I focus on one, my interior "mind's sight" of where the other guys are at in 3D space has disappeared. What usually happens then is that I bag the guy I am chasing but very quickly one of the others bags me.

Is it almost impossible to fight two or more guys on full real without a wingman ? If you can do it, please describe your tactics.

Jay

badatit
10-30-2008, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Is it almost impossible to fight two or more guys on full real without a wingman ? If you can do it, please describe your tactics.

Jay


I'm taking it for granted that by "the other two guys" (usually more), you are refering to
competent veteran pilots, and not noobs.

If that's the case...
Take out the word almost, and you are absolutely 100% correct.

Flying without a wingman is a looong mission.
Even "IF" you can setup and get into a position of advantage against multiple targets (and score a couple of kills), the chances of RTB are minimal. By the time your ready to bug out, higher enemy aircraft are in route...they have been vectored to your last known position, and will find you...question is, can they catch you. They usually do.

On the other hand, if you have a wingman (and good comms) perched up in the sun , watching the action...it's a whole different story.

gorkyporky
10-30-2008, 04:21 PM
well, in RL pilots usualy wouldnt engage if they were outnumberd, especialy 2v1. So i suggest you just try to avoid them, or get a wingman. But hey, im a n00b myself, so i have no idea what im talking about.

Divine-Wind
10-30-2008, 04:33 PM
Wingmen generally seemed to be a key part of WWII tactics, and I'm guessing that was for a very good reason. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

K_Freddie
10-31-2008, 12:29 AM
It is possible to do 2v1, but you must never focus on one for too long, and alway check your 6 every few seconds.
With 3+v1, you have to concentrate moe on your a/c advantages vs their disadvantages to the extreme, and then run.

I did have a good time on ADW once where the sky was full of MEs (F2s) and I-16s. We were originally having a 4vs4 braul, losing 1 ME and taking down 3 I-16s, then suddenly it was me and a I-16 DFing and a damaged ME. I quickly joined and after a few turns downed the I-16. At this stage the damaged ME has dissapeared.
Suddenly I had a Yak 7 behind me, and a desperate turn or two I avoided him, only to find 4 more I-16s all over me. Taking a few hits and a zero level I put my tail between my legs and ran like hell, taking an accasional hit, while doing these crazy avoidance moves at zero feet. I eventuall took a hit on what must have been an engine speed governor as I had no control of the engine. Crossing the border, I-16's shooting like crazy, I was desperate for help, which came with 2 MEs over the hill.
I cut the overheating engine, and belly landed the plane while the I-16's flew over me, taking shots which went wide.

I jumped and ran, but they now had their hands full, so I could escape....phew.

So yes, more than 1vs1 can be a problem. Realising this in the early IL2 years, I put a lot of effort into Situational Awareness (SA), on the edge a/c control, and practising offline alone with 4 ace squads (each squad having a single plane).
Although the AI is doff, it teaches you how to keep track of 4 or more planes at one time.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

jayhall0315
10-31-2008, 01:40 AM
Good story Freddie. I have had similar experiences to you on full real servers. I can almost always handle one on one and sometimes two on one (if they are beginners) but two experienced guys or more, and someone unseen usually quickly tags me and then I can BnZ or TnB with full abilities, start smoking and then another tag or two and I am down. ....LOL, alot like real life I suspect.

SA is definitely my weakness in full real, and I hoping I "get the hang of it" sooner rather than later.

Jay

Erkki_M
10-31-2008, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Hey guys - Recently got back from a trip down south and getting ready to head back to the Lobby for some fun tonight or tomorrow but I have a problem I need to learn how to overcome. When I fly on open pits or closed pits with external views I can keep track of several guys at once and as I dive or attack one guy I have a good idea of where the others are and usually do quite well.

Problem is, on full real servers with no icons or external views, if I fight two or more guys, as soon as I focus on one, my interior "mind's sight" of where the other guys are at in 3D space has disappeared. What usually happens then is that I bag the guy I am chasing but very quickly one of the others bags me.

Is it almost impossible to fight two or more guys on full real without a wingman ? If you can do it, please describe your tactics.

Jay

Dont chase people. You cannot presume that the other guy doesnt know you are there even if it would seem so. It is simply not safe to chase planes close to your altitude. Attack only if hes coming to you already, or is about to fly close to you - if his 6 is towards you and his not turning or very close to you, dont go after him if you are not sure if you can catch him or not, if there are other(enemy or unknown) aircraft in the area or you know there might be, especially if they might be above you.

Also, if you bounce someone below you and you dont have a (trustworthy) friend up to look after you, avoid zooming directly up and especially to the direction where you came from: you (almost) never know if there was a bandit at similar/a bit lower/higher E that was after you, and you might get him behind you at the top of your zoom or even before reaching it. Zooming more shallow means the possible bandit will have to fly a longer path(you will also have more time to see him coming), you will have more speed for evasion etc.

It is equally possible to fight two guys simultanously in full real - just like in arcade. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Naturally, FWs/109s will not turn with a spit, so a lone spit is usually dead unless if it can either take the other guy out of the game quickly or has altitude: most(in practice, just some) will not sacrifice their altitude to chase a singleton, but will let him go. A good thumb rule is that the better, the smarter, the more co-operating enemy, the more likely they want to stay alive and keep the good cards. You may count on 3 P47s from the same squad playing on WarClouds not to chase you down to the deck.

if your aircraft is just faster, and you are alone, you will be running away from the enemy most of the time. However, if you are both faster and better at climb(109!) you can fight two or more bandits(spits), even if they flew together. You just need to be careful and take your time. Quite often you will find that if you dont attack the guy you attacked first but his wingman, for example, you will be able to get a shot even as the leader knows you are coming; even online, the pairs are usually led by the better guy, and the other guy sometimes just follows him blind or loses sight of him at first turn and then panics.

By playing full real a lot you will(most likely) eventually develop a better SA which includes not only just knowing where the other guys are and which side and aircraft they fly, but knowing what they know of the situation and even more: knowing what they are going to do next. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Someone here had something like "you need two out of Speed, Altitude and Brains" in his signature. Thats very well said, though I'd emphaze the brains.

F19_Orheim
10-31-2008, 02:11 AM
As long as you have the advantage of E and keep it, securing also your foes' positions, you should have no problem.

B&Zing or energyfighting two opponents is not a biggy. If you havn't bagged one or both of them in the first couple of attacks, and you feel you are loosing your edge, then maybe it's time to think about your departure. As long as you DO have the edge however, I can't see any reason why you should leave.

Turn fighting is a whole other story. Here you burn your energy and even with an energy advantage from the start, when you turnfight, you will loose this advantage pretty fast as you bleed off that energy, and if you havn't bagged at least one of your foes quickly, you'll end up with both of them with no energy advantage at all..

I quite often see e.g spits or zekes (or any other plane that is known as good turn fighters) take on two or more 109s (or hellcats) online, thinking their turn ability will make them bring both of their foes down. They end up shot down quite often. Even if you fly "turn fighters", E should be your main concern.

In essence, attack two (or multiple) opponents when;
- You have an energy advantage (altitude or speed)
- You have established their positions and energy (and mark them as no immidiate threat)
- You are able to ambush them (e.g from above), hence they have not spotted you (as it seems)
- Can decimate their numbers in the first or second attack (kill or disable)
- You use and keep you energy advantage.
- You are NOT using acrobatics and tight turns, loosing that precious energy.

Get out of there if unsuccessful downing at least one of them quickly and when you feel your loosing the edge.

EDIT: Erkki, you posted as was typing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.. I liked that quote." You need two out of Speed, Altitude and Brains"

SterlingX
10-31-2008, 02:49 AM
That would be like that game, with half the ring covered by a piece of paper.
It's not impossible, it just needs practice, to keep mental track of where things were going.
http://garysblog.co.uk/index.php/2008/02/red-square-1

rnzoli
10-31-2008, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Is it almost impossible to fight two or more guys on full real without a wingman ? If you can do it, please describe your tactics.
One simple thing I learnt against fighting numerical superiority: I must never go after the enemy in trouble, no matter how tempting it is. I always look for the one that poses the bigger danger to me and make counter moves against THAT. This approach usually allows a draw in worst case, and in case they make a mistake (e.g., all do something stupid), I can work on them one by one. But in principle, you must first smoke/damage all your opponents, before you even think of saddling in on one. And even when all your opponents are in trouble, you must never forget about reinforcements coming.

PhantomKira
10-31-2008, 09:37 AM
One rule that real world pilots had, "always check six right before you shoot." Remember, with the vast majority of aircraft shot down, the pilots never saw those who shot them down.

I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a kill, and gotten shot down almost immediately afterwards. rnzoli has good advice: don't go after the guy in trouble if there's even the slightest doubt that there might be others around. That damage could still be enough to bring down the aircraft, and it's not worth getting shot down for.

F4U-1_corsair
11-01-2008, 03:24 PM
I remember a book written by a WWII vet included a rule of engagement at the opening of every chapter, among them

Never fly strieght and level in a combat area

Never linger behind a kill

never concern yourself in what happens to a plane after you shoot it

never spend more than 5 seconds behind a level opponent

Fehler
11-02-2008, 12:09 AM
Actually, I had a successful 3-1 a few weeks ago in Spits v 109's (I believe)

I was in a clipped Spit and was fighting 3 190's. My thought process was this: check 6, fire, maneuver, check six, fire maneuver, over and over.

Eventually, a hit here and another there made one guy bug out (must of hit something necessary on that guy) made another stall out into the ground and got a kill, and eventually caught the third guy in a bad energy state for a deflection shot PK.

Now, admittedly, this is a 1 in 100 encounter for me because if I am 1-3 I am dead 99.9999% of the time, but that day I was a little bit good and a lot bit lucky.

Damn, I should have played the Lottery that night!

JtD
11-02-2008, 01:04 AM
I'll usually fly hit and run and if you do, numbers don't matter that much anymore. You find a target, have a go at it and extend as far as necessary to be sure about all enemy positions in the area. You may then decide to come back to for another attack.

The point is, if you run as fast as you can towards your base, the enemy will almost certainly be behind you. It's far easier to scan 40? of the sky than 360?, even if it's 6 o'clock.

K_Freddie
11-02-2008, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by F4U-1_corsair:
I remember a book written by a WWII vet included a rule of engagement at the opening of every chapter, among them

Never fly strieght and level in a combat area

Never linger behind a kill

never concern yourself in what happens to a plane after you shoot it

never spend more than 5 seconds behind a level opponent
Adolph Malan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolph_Malan)
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

dirkpit7
11-02-2008, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F4U-1_corsair:
I remember a book written by a WWII vet included a rule of engagement at the opening of every chapter, among them

Never fly strieght and level in a combat area

Never linger behind a kill

never concern yourself in what happens to a plane after you shoot it

never spend more than 5 seconds behind a level opponent
Adolph Malan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolph_Malan)
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Malan wrote his famous ten rules of air fighting, but he didn't write a book of his wartime experience, so maybe it's someone else F4U-1_corsair is referring to.

K_Freddie
11-02-2008, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by dirkpit7:
Malan wrote his famous ten rules of air fighting, but he didn't write a book of his wartime experience, so maybe it's someone else F4U-1_corsair is referring to.
Yup - The rules are very similar though. They must have come from somewhere.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

OD_
11-04-2008, 07:34 AM
Use the fact that there are no labels above your aircraft to your advantage. Dive in on multiple bogies, hit and run, see if they follow, if they don't then pull safely away and climb up to do it again.

If you're going to hang around to fight then you've got to hit them both hard and fast. Once you've got them both damaged you've got to hope they've not got friends in the area. Finish them off quickly and bug out.

More than two and you will more than likely struggle. It's all about being fast and having the element of surprise. Without it I wouldn't bother.