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doogerie
04-07-2009, 01:32 AM
Any tips? I am a really bad shot.

DKoor
04-07-2009, 01:44 AM
Many tips...however, the best one is to practice.
Good portion of your answer should be regarding the planes you fly.
Gunnery is a bit different from plane to plane.
Basic difference is whether plane has wing or nose gun arrangement, also whether it has cannons or not.
If you specify what you like to fly, you might get much better answers.

jamesblonde1979
04-07-2009, 01:46 AM
Pull more lead.

Get closer.

HayateAce
04-07-2009, 01:52 AM
Fly the 109 or 190. Your gunnery WILL go up, unless of course you already are flying them. Please report back your results.

X32Wright
04-07-2009, 02:43 AM
I have trained my fair share of beginner pilots in this sime and this is what I tell them to do:

Go to QMB (Quick mission builder) and setup 4 Bombers as FRIENDLY and shoot them. Preferably start with the Pe-8 and use the La5FN/Bf-109 G2 with convergeance of between 280 and 380 as well as 420 and see which one works for you. Shoot only ONE SIDE of the bomber's wing, pick and side and stick shooting at that side!

Shoot a little higher than you expect so the bullets and cannons shells would fall down on the enemy planes. Shoot in BURSTS of three under 1 second. YES that means short repeated bursts of THREES in 1 second. This is somehtign you have to practice instead of holding down the trigger.

Once you can consistently shoot all four down everytime for 1 week move to the smaller bombers like B-17 and then A-20 and eventually down to the SBD-5 and Beaufighter. You can also try the C-47 to start with.

Then once you do this for two weeks you move to the designations of the BOMBER as ENEMY and shoot them down accordingly as well. Approach the bombers form above and dive on them or from below BUT NEVER from the back or their SIX EVER. The best angle is from the front above a little to the left or right of the cockpit (around 20-45 off to each side). Watch your clposing distance to the bomber ans shoot by looking at your TRACERS wgere they do and LEAD your shots by PAINTING your target with your tracers.

Once you can shoot them down as enemy then you are ready for shooting down FIGHTERS as FRIENDLY and then if you didn't cheat in this gunnery exercise you would be better in 4 weeks.

Cheating in this gunnery exercise means using large cannons like those on the Ki-84c/JM5 or P-39/63 or the D0-335 or using the MK-108 on the Bf-109 and noticed that the FW-190 (Anton or Dora) wasn't mentioned http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you stick to this your gunnery would be good it is guaranteed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PS: there are subtle changes to this tips that needs to be done like 'gun convergeance' with planes that you fly as well as styles of approach and such but before you get down to those you should be able to shoot werll first!

DKoor
04-07-2009, 04:12 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Fly the 109 or 190. Your gunnery WILL go up, unless of course you already are flying them. Please report back your results. Not sure about that mate... I just think you spent excessive time in German crates so you can hit good with them. I find it to be really a matter of habit, a matter of whether you are or not used to some gun type.
For instance, it may sound weird but I'm very very poor marksman when it comes to ShVaK cannon. My air to air gunnery is much better with MG151 and probably best with .50cal but only because I used it A LOT in the past year or so (P-51)...
Of course German FW have one distinct advantage which however doesn't have much to do with the player's % hitrate... that is, they carry "tons" of ammo (up to unbelievable 1000 shells!). Bf has 200 shells in one cannon, which is about the same as its Soviet Lavochkin counterparts (Yaks usually have significantly less cannon ammo).

STENKA_69.GIAP
04-07-2009, 04:19 AM
Go to www.69giap.com (http://www.69giap.com) click on left menu marked Training then download the Basic Yap training pack.

You get four missions that are designed to help you improve different aspects of your gunnery.

steeldelete
04-07-2009, 05:10 AM
You might try this one. http://mission4today.com/index...file=details&id=3084 (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3084)

Ah, yeah there is a vidio too:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...5710358/m/8151078596 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/65710358/m/8151078596)

I almost forgot there is an other article:

http://www.simhq.com/_air10/air_312a.html

BillSwagger
04-07-2009, 06:07 AM
i would offer that practicing will help develop your eye for shooting.

also,

I find that in a P-47 loaded with extra ammo lets you use the trigger a bit more and for better ranges than some planes with heavier guns.

Deflection shots can be wasteful of ammo so having the extra ammo load will let you play around with that.
Its a good way place to start, because you can also shoot from further out where most cannons require you to be with in 300M to make an accurate shot.

raaaid
04-07-2009, 06:26 AM
tracers have delay, they are missleading ignore them

go offline and go against 16 newbee p40 on undestructible and unlimited ammo on fast mode

crucislancer
04-07-2009, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by steeldelete:
I almost forgot there is an other article:

http://www.simhq.com/_air10/air_312a.html

Dart also has a video on his site about using the gunsight to determine range. Very handy when you play without icons. darts-page.com (http://www.darts-page.com/)

Doogerie, there is a lot to gunnery. There are a lot of great tips on this thread. Just keep practicing. Each plane type is a little bit different in regards to gunnery, but all of the basic principles are the same. Just keep at it and you will improve.

Pay attention to your convergence, and find a shooting distance that you feel comfortable with. It's a personal thing, some people like 100-150 meters convergences, others like it much farther out.

McHilt
04-07-2009, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
tracers have delay, they are missleading ignore them

go offline and go against 16 newbee p40 on undestructible and unlimited ammo on fast mode

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Ha, that would be my advice too...

HayateAce
04-07-2009, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Fly the 109 or 190. Your gunnery WILL go up, unless of course you already are flying them. Please report back your results. Not sure about that mate... I just think you spent excessive time in German crates so you can hit good with them. I find it to be really a matter of habit, a matter of whether you are or not used to some gun type.
For instance, it may sound weird but I'm very very poor marksman when it comes to ShVaK cannon. My air to air gunnery is much better with MG151 and probably best with .50cal but only because I used it A LOT in the past year or so (P-51)...
Of course German FW have one distinct advantage which however doesn't have much to do with the player's % hitrate... that is, they carry "tons" of ammo (up to unbelievable 1000 shells!). Bf has 200 shells in one cannon, which is about the same as its Soviet Lavochkin counterparts (Yaks usually have significantly less cannon ammo). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for not hanging me to dry over my checkered past of suspicions that some countries' a/c are deliberately dumbed down.

Most of my time has been in the sniper-required Yak3. After this make came the LaGGs and to a lesser degree the La5/7, which I find incredibly hard to hit with if the planets aren't aligned just right.

I switch over to the 20mm of the 109/190s and my hit rate immediately goes up. The shells go exactly where you would think they should. With the La5/7 with only 2x20mm, it's anybody's guess. The guns on the Yak3 behave well, but as you mention ammo is non-existent and best spent in 3-shell bursts at the most.

As for the US .50cals, satisfaction is very low. All the tracers manage to do is announce your to everyone on the map, and do little to aid your gunnery. When you do hit, it usually only serves as a warning beep-beep for your bandit to twisty-stick-safety.

Thanks for your post M8.

Sillius_Sodus
04-07-2009, 10:57 AM
You also have to try to make sure your aircraft is not yawing/skidding when you fire. The ball in the turn and bank indicator should be as close to center as possible, otherwise your rounds will not hit where the sight is pointing. With torque effect enabled, the nose of your aircraft will yaw/skid whenever you pull or push on the stick, and the 'ball' will be off to the side unless you correct the yaw with rudder. Check it out next time you fly. The Spitfire has a slightly different instrument but the principle is the same. Some U.S. aircraft have a yaw/skid indicator (ball) right under the gunsight which makes things easier.

Another thing you can try in order to improve you deflection shooting, especially against maneuvering targets is to slow the sim down to half or even quarter speed. The target won't be moving as quickly so you will have more time to correct your aim. When you go back to normal speed it will seem a bit too fast but hopefully by then you will be better at deflection shooting.

DKoor
04-07-2009, 11:03 AM
I agree .50cal would be twice as useable if tracer bullets are really visible as most other weapons in the game are.
Part of the .50cal being hard to use lies in the fact that you really have to be used to them because you can forget about leading your bullets on target... MG151 is on the other hand champion in that and that is, besides its awesome destruct power in game, one of the reasons why they are so much "user friendly".
Also FW-190A has 4x20mm in wings and considerable quantity of ammo which makes gunnery a real joy in that plane.
I have noticed that I can pull much better deflection with one nose MG151/20 than two cowling ShVaK's... be it cannon quality model, my poor adaptability to ShVaK or whatever... it is what it is. .50cal has to be one of the hardest to use gun in this regard (deflection).http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/gm_shrug.gif

slipBall
04-07-2009, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Sillius_Sodus:
You also have to try to make sure your aircraft is not yawing/skidding when you fire. The ball in the turn and bank indicator should be as close to center as possible, otherwise your rounds will not hit where the sight is pointing. With torque effect enabled, the nose of your aircraft will yaw/skid whenever you pull or push on the stick, and the 'ball' will be off to the side unless you correct the yaw with rudder. Check it out next time you fly. The Spitfire has a slightly different instrument but the principle is the same. Some U.S. aircraft have a yaw/skid indicator (ball) right under the gunsight which makes things easier.



+1
This and convergence distance being of great importance. Don't waste ammo, untill you can count a few rivet's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Ba5tard5word
04-07-2009, 11:47 AM
I switch over to the 20mm of the 109/190s and my hit rate immediately goes up. The shells go exactly where you would think they should. With the La5/7 with only 2x20mm, it's anybody's guess. The guns on the Yak3 behave well, but as you mention ammo is non-existent and best spent in 3-shell bursts at the most.

The 2x20mm in the La5/7 are indeed very hard to hit anything with, I think it's because they are barely visible when you fire them--the bullets shot out from most other planes are very visible so you can use them as tracers to a degree. The La7 with 3xB20 has way more visible bullets, and the 12.7mm MG in the nose of a LaGG or Yak usually acts a bit as a tracer too. It's annoying because the La-5's are such a joy to fly in 1942 or 1943 scenarios.

The FW-190's cannons and even its MG's aren't particularly visible when you fire them, but I think they have such a good but tight spread that they generally hit where you think they will.

DKoor
04-07-2009, 12:02 PM
One thing positive that can be said about LA-5/7 ShVaK's... is that sniping is high point with this cannon. At dead 6 very little lead is needed at closer ranges none at all... just point you crosshair directly at target and shoot. Of course that doesn't really work in maneuver fights, but generally speaking this cannon always need less deflection than MG151/20.
Yes... being less visible is a big minushttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif.

HayateAce
04-07-2009, 12:54 PM
Lot of good points guys. I think the most fun I've had in this sim was early on with me in a mid-war IL2 vs a gaggle of Bf110s set to Ace. Gunnery seems very realistic and is quite fun in that plane.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

RPMcMurphy
04-07-2009, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by doogerie:
Any tips? I am a really bad shot.
You may call me a freak but I found that I hate using the traditional firing button/trigger on the joystick handgrip. I assigned my weapons to the lower more normal buttons on the base of my joystick.
I still squeeze off the shots though, and I touch the button gently when I fire. No sense in smashing it when all I have to do is close that circuit to fire the guns. Just stay relaxed, lead as appropriate and squeeze off the shot.


(Edit)
Oh ya, there are a couple different ways of firing at a moving target:

Trapping.
This is holding and firing at one spot in front of the target and letting it fly into your bullets.

Tracking.
This is tracking along and in front of your moving target as you estimate where the target 'will be' and firing at that spot.

Choctaw111
04-07-2009, 03:33 PM
I have not read all posts here so please forgive any repeats.
The best way I found when I started out was in the Quick Mission Builder. First off, turn on "Unlimited Ammo". This will really help you out. If you can't hit much of anything, set up a bunch of friendly planes to shoot until you get the hang of it. Friendly bombers are easiest to hit.
Once you can start hitting things consistently, up the difficulty a little by trying some deflection shooting. Get to know the feel of where your bullets are going. Once you are comfortable with this, again set up something in the Quick Mission Builder with some enemy planes that are not very agile and set them to Rookie. Keep practicing and keep making things more difficult as you continue to improve. Before you know it you will be up against several Ace pilots at one time...and shooting them all down.

Bobbo_Tabor
04-07-2009, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:

Shoot a little higher than you expect so the bullets and cannons shells would fall down on the enemy planes. Shoot in BURSTS of three under 1 second. YES that means short repeated bursts of THREES in 1 second. This is somehtign you have to practice instead of holding down the trigger.


Is this short bursts as in tap-tap-tap or tap-hold for a sec, tap hold for a sec, tap hold for a sec? Accurate shooting has been driving me nuts in this game with the way the planes bounce around when you fire.

And bombers seem to be a bit easy once I got the hang of it; they fly in strait lines so getting the deflection / head on shot is relativity easy. Fighters are a pill for me since most of the time it seems I am shooting them from their six. Tail and stuff gets in the way of the sweet spots. Beyond getting closer any places on the other plane to aim at from there?

X32Wright
04-07-2009, 04:18 PM
it is:

TAP-TAP-TAP (3 bursts) all in ONE second. You watch the tracers from the 1st,2nd and 3rd taps. They would be spaced out in front of u and more likely to hit the enemy moving in space than holding it down for 1 sec.

Consider this like flickering a light switch three times on and off for 1 sec with a button switch or like a drum beat or MORSE code.

If you have a separate throttle with you stick it helps to move the trigger off the stick inot the throttle like in the X-52

HayateAce
04-07-2009, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:
I have not read all posts here so please forgive any repeats.
The best way I found when I started out was in the Quick Mission Builder. First off, turn on "Unlimited Ammo". This will really help you out. If you can't hit much of anything, set up a bunch of friendly planes to shoot until you get the hang of it. Friendly bombers are easiest to hit.
Once you can start hitting things consistently, up the difficulty a little by trying some deflection shooting. Get to know the feel of where your bullets are going. Once you are comfortable with this, again set up something in the Quick Mission Builder with some enemy planes that are not very agile and set them to Rookie. Keep practicing and keep making things more difficult as you continue to improve. Before you know it you will be up against several Ace pilots at one time...and shooting them all down.

+1

Unlimited ammo in QMB will help you settle down and take more relaxed aim. Back in the online heyday the times I was most deadly was when several of us were laughing on comms and having a good ol' time. Some nights I hardly missed a shot.

Other times, well...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

Bearcat99
04-07-2009, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by steeldelete:
You might try this one. http://mission4today.com/index...file=details&id=3084 (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3084)

Ah, yeah there is a vidio too:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...5710358/m/8151078596 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/65710358/m/8151078596)

I almost forgot there is an other article:

http://www.simhq.com/_air10/air_312a.html


Originally posted by crucislancer:
Dart also has a video on his site about using the gunsight to determine range. Very handy when you play without icons. darts-page.com (http://www.darts-page.com/)

Doogerie, there is a lot to gunnery. There are a lot of great tips on this thread. Just keep practicing. Each plane type is a little bit different in regards to gunnery, but all of the basic principles are the same. Just keep at it and you will improve.

Pay attention to your convergence, and find a shooting distance that you feel comfortable with. It's a personal thing, some people like 100-150 meters convergences, others like it much farther out.

Excellent advice.. I found all these to be great resources.. and there is also Sniper's Corner (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Knowledge_Base&op=show&kid=296). It runs on excell.. but between Bag The Hun, Darts stuff and that and of course practice.. you will find that your gunnery will get better. Remember though that there are things that come into play with online gunnery that do not occur in offline gunnery like lag.

You might want to hit The Nugget's Guide also.

ROXunreal
04-07-2009, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Remember though that there are things that come into play with online gunnery that do not occur in offline gunnery like lag.


Like aiming him one moment and then him appearing inside you the other moment, and boom.

horseback
04-07-2009, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I switch over to the 20mm of the 109/190s and my hit rate immediately goes up. The shells go exactly where you would think they should. With the La5/7 with only 2x20mm, it's anybody's guess. The guns on the Yak3 behave well, but as you mention ammo is non-existent and best spent in 3-shell bursts at the most.

The 2x20mm in the La5/7 are indeed very hard to hit anything with, I think it's because they are barely visible when you fire them--the bullets shot out from most other planes are very visible so you can use them as tracers to a degree. The La7 with 3xB20 has way more visible bullets, and the 12.7mm MG in the nose of a LaGG or Yak usually acts a bit as a tracer too. It's annoying because the La-5's are such a joy to fly in 1942 or 1943 scenarios.

The FW-190's cannons and even its MG's aren't particularly visible when you fire them, but I think they have such a good but tight spread that they generally hit where you think they will. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I just finished up a three week spree in an La-5 (20 offline missions in an ongoing campaign, just moved to the next campaign in a <ugh!> Yak-1), and for the life of me, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at my usual convergence of 200m. After 6 or 7 very frustrating missions, I switched my convergence to 150m, and the difference was night and day, even with long shots. Where I was getting no more than 2 in a mission, I was suddenly coming away with as many as 6 in a day's bag.

Part of the problem with the nose mounted cannon of the La- series is that there is NO dispersion--the rounds go directly to that point covered by the cross hairs, whereas with wing mounted guns, there's always a bit of spread. You can aim in the general vicinity of the wingroots and expect to do some serious harm, even de-wing your victim with a 190 or even an Allied fighter with wing armament, but with the La-5 and later, coming close just means that you miss by a narrower margin (and the gunsight obscures the target as much as it frames it).

As for tracers, I ignore 'em most of the time. IRL, they followed a slightly different trajectory than the rounds that actually did serious damage, and many pilots asked their armorers to leave them out entirely until the last few rounds in the belt so they knew when it was time to head for the barn.

I also generally try to keep the ball centered, but some aircraft instruments are more honest than others. The Mustang, for instance, lies about whether it's in a skid like my ex-wife lies about money. What you'll find is that if you fly one plane consistantly for a while, you will keep the ball centered instinctively, without referring to the needle and ball.

In extreme cases, you can spend some time in QMB flying in Wonder Woman view and practice by keeping the vector ball centered there. As I said, after a while it will become second nature, and you can end that heretical behavior and return to the ranks of the cockpit-only righteous with improved skills.

cheers

horseback

WTE_Galway
04-07-2009, 07:20 PM
Best way to train is in QMB starting at 1/4 speed and moving up to half speed tehn normal and eventually double.

You can save tracks of your attacks and play them back from the targets perspective to see just where your shots are going.

TIPS - Always fire in convergence and always keep the ball centered. If the ball is not centered your gunsight will be pointing to the wrong spot.

VW-IceFire
04-07-2009, 08:42 PM
I think my gunnery improved the most when I switched to using the P-47D-27 and Hurricane and was shooting at 109s. Once you get good at knocking planes down with one or two one second bursts from either of these planes you know that you're decently good.

Eventually what happens after enough practice is that your brain has the "pattern" of what angles are required for a hit stored in the recesses of your brain. I semi-frequently have these moments of...inspiration or something like that where everything lines up perfectly and I pull the trigger. I can often make very difficult shots at very high degress of deflection thanks to years (on and off) practicing my gunnery.

But in the short term do whateveryone has been suggesting. Go up in the QMB and start practicing against different kinds of targets both small and large. Avoid using planes with the biggest cannons.

Also learn trim. If you aren't using trim you're never going to be good at gunnery because you're always going to be fighting the plane. Learn how to "center the ball"...having it as straight as possible will aid gunnery significantly.

sunflower1
04-07-2009, 10:42 PM
I'll throw out a tip.

Choose a plane with weak guns, no cannons, and fire the shortest bursts possible.

I often use the Ki-43 against the F6F. The F6F's AI routine can't cope with the Ki so there's no lack of firing solutions and once you're hitting you can waste the F6F with even the rifle caliber models.

Force yourself to pick the point where you think the bogey will be when the bullets get there and put a tiny burst out to see if you're right.

Do that for a few years.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
04-07-2009, 11:45 PM
One thing to check on yourself is if you are flying with slip or not.
If you are then when you are it will throw your aim off to some angle.
Good news is if you get close enough you'll still hit him somewhere.
Bad news is you'll have to fly that close and be more easily shaken off.

Slip is also a sort of 'random factor' when you don't know it's there.
At least be aware of it. Save tracks (ntrk type, start and stop in game)
and when you review them, pause when it shoots and check the gunsight view
and your instruments then POV over to the target, slow to 1/4 speed and
watch where the shots actually go with the view set so you can see your
plane firing. Pretty soon you'll have a better idea and feel of what the
view should be when it works. It's funny how many times most of the shots
miss while some hit that you'd think are all hits during play for instance.

T_O_A_D
04-08-2009, 12:31 AM
Watching tracks and video's located on YOUtube and the like, from inside the pit can help immensely.

I have a set of missions, and with this thread I've decided to share outside of my select few, from over the years.

Not sure when it will be available, I just now submitted it to Mission for today.

DKoor
04-08-2009, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
Watching tracks and video's located on YOUtube and the like, from inside the pit can help immensely.

I have a set of missions, and with this thread I've decided to share outside of my select few, from over the years.

Not sure when it will be available, I just now submitted it to Mission for today. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gifLooking forward to it.

karost
04-08-2009, 12:15 PM
Hello Guys http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you like to improve The Deflection Shooting skills

I have my old pictures to share to you guys...
to improve your fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Online 90 degree track turning curve right time right mark.

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z159/Karost/df_0410_b03.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z159/Karost/df_0410_b04.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z159/Karost/df_0410_b05.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z159/Karost/df_0410_b06.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z159/Karost/df_0410_b07.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z159/Karost/df_0410_b08.jpg

Let see closer how I did that :P

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z159/Karost/df_0410_b09.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z159/Karost/df_0410_b10.jpg



If you like to see more... here below link



TFS Deflection Shooting Collection (http://www.thaiflight.com/mach/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=268680#268680)

sorry for Thai contents language ....but I hope the pictures can help you guys http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S~

T_O_A_D
04-08-2009, 12:48 PM
Here they are
http://mission4today.com/index...file=details&id=3665 (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3665)

Also note my You tube link in my sig.

I'm not the best, but you might pick up a few things.

squareusr
04-08-2009, 03:16 PM
You may call me a freak but I found that I hate using the traditional firing button/trigger on the joystick handgrip.

This can in fact be a very good idea. I have used the left hand for firing for what i think sums up to years and was very happy with it. It is really worth converting to left-handed firing, even if you keep the traditional trigger on the trigger as a backup for the intuitive snapshot when the enemy surprisingly appears right in front of your cowling.

(now i have converted back to (double) stick trigger, but only after switching to a long-throw stick that is much less sensitive to the small movements created by pulling the trigger. but even now i am still using the left hand buttons on very rare occasions when i feel safe leaving the hand off the throttle and i really want perfectly separate control over the individual guns and the steadiest hand possible)

na85
04-08-2009, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I switch over to the 20mm of the 109/190s and my hit rate immediately goes up. The shells go exactly where you would think they should. With the La5/7 with only 2x20mm, it's anybody's guess. The guns on the Yak3 behave well, but as you mention ammo is non-existent and best spent in 3-shell bursts at the most.

The 2x20mm in the La5/7 are indeed very hard to hit anything with, I think it's because they are barely visible when you fire them--the bullets shot out from most other planes are very visible so you can use them as tracers to a degree. The La7 with 3xB20 has way more visible bullets, and the 12.7mm MG in the nose of a LaGG or Yak usually acts a bit as a tracer too. It's annoying because the La-5's are such a joy to fly in 1942 or 1943 scenarios.

The FW-190's cannons and even its MG's aren't particularly visible when you fire them, but I think they have such a good but tight spread that they generally hit where you think they will. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I find the weapons on the La5 are the easiest to hit with in the whole game.

It's all about the perceptions you go in with. The 20 mils on the La are just really "in tune" with the calculator in my head. I don't even have to think when flying the La.

On the other hand, the M2 50 cals require a lot of effort for me to hit with, same with the weapons in the 109.

Don't judge your accuracy by your performance in the 190. I'm a terrible, terrible shot with most aircraft, but in the 190 I can shoot well. It's because the spread and the amount of guns on the 190 make it like you're shooting walls at the enemy, instead of shooting bullets.

Much harder to dodge a flying wall coming at you.

Woke_Up_Dead
04-08-2009, 06:10 PM
Some good advice here, but I think I can add a little bit more since I was in the same stage as you a few months ago.

Relax your grip, and try to make sure that you are not resting the weight of your hand and arm on your joystick. I think either M_Gunz or Bearcat wrote that advice originally and it really helped me. I moved my joystick down from the computer desk to my lap, where I can operate it with my wrist only, while my elbow rests on my chair's elbow support.

Spend lots of time in the QMB shooting at friendlies or slow-moving enemies. The IL-2 is a nice, steady plane to shoot from. Try different angles and different speeds. Review your tracks.

Anticipate. If you only react to your opponent then you will be moving all the time and you won't be a good, steady gun platform. Ideally, you want to be flying in a straight line with your joystick centered when you squeeze the trigger, that way you will be firing a nice, concentrated stream of bullets.

Learn to use the rudder rather than the elevators or ailerons for small adjustments. If you are using a twisty-stick then you want your initial rudder inputs to be low. Speaking of joystick inputs, add the minimum amount of filtering and dead-zone in your IL-2 control input settings.

The advice about centering the ball is good, but don't worry about it until you get better; it's something that can elevate your gunnery from good to great, rather than from poor to decent.

na85
04-08-2009, 06:28 PM
I would also say that you should try and get as close as possible.

A lot of times I see newbies shooting from WAY too far out.

Erich Hartmann, the world's leading ace with 352 victories was quoted as saying that he didn't open fire until his entire windshield was filled with the enemy's aircraft.

Now you probably don't need to be that close, but while you're learning you should try to only fire when the enemy fills your reticle.

Ba5tard5word
04-08-2009, 11:14 PM
Damn I just changed my screen setting from 1280 x 800 to 1680 x 1050 and it really made it easier to hit stuff--everything looks so much clearer.

So maybe try upping the resolution on your monitor.

M_Gunz
04-09-2009, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
The advice about centering the ball is good, but don't worry about it until you get better; it's something that can elevate your gunnery from good to great, rather than from poor to decent.

Slip is simply the plane not pointing where it is going. Targets that appear to be steady in your gunsight are moving to the
side where the gunsight points but since you're flying crooked they appear steady. Your shots will seem to veer and curve
behind the target.

With the P-51D-5 you get a mini-ball right under the reticle. Any time you sight, you see the ball right at the bottom even
in zoom gunsight view. It makes rudder-using, slip-conscious training much easier!

Flying without slip lets you accelerate faster, climb better, turn better and have a chance at ever reaching top level speed
without having to dive first let alone keeping full speed. You don't have to be perfect, just don't be bad about it and learn
through practice. Just a couple hours can make a difference.

You -can- shoot from slip, get the pipper over a bit to the side, but it will cost speed and you have to lead the shot by as
much as your shots would curve away with as much sideslip as you're holding. In practice it's take a guess, short burst and
see the tracers to correct aim.
How to tell you're in slip when your path is straight, if your shots veer off to the side in a wide curve that gets tighter
with distance then you're in slip.

BUT if you don't at least keep track of your slip then it becomes a "random factor", "one of those unexplainable things" that
turns your effective range to short-only, close enough where 5+ degrees this way or that still gets enough hits. 100m or so
perhaps. Start flying and shooting coordinated and your effective range will multiply which makes true BnZ possible.

It's nice and easy to learn in the Mustangs with the ball built into the sight. The ball is visible in most planes in the
zoomed-out view and next jump in. Spitfires have Slip and Bank needles wayyyy down on the lower right of the panel.
Most of the rest, it's in easy view.

Look at it this way, from the Immersion(TM) POV. Here's another thing that tells you about how you're flying, and without
your input it moves around quite a bit. IRL you would feel these things but in a sim you have to go from audio (wind noise)
and video cues, how well the nose responds to inputs and various gage readings like IAS, alt, heading and slip and stick
position and No Feel of the movement of the plane except what the mind fills in. At's Immersion! Another bit of flying
that previous sims, even earlier IL2 kind of "filled in" to some degree. More Real(also TM) means more things to know are
happening and to deal with.

The thing is that you can get used to what's needed pretty quick anyway just practicing flying offline solo with the view
including the major instruments. Hour or so, you only need to check once in a while. You got a good feel for how much
rudder to counter how much bank or even how much for a change in airspeed... 109 needs a load of rudder at high speed and
opposite rudder at low speed and has no pilot controllable rudder trim. If you don't rudder in the 109 then the plane will
fly straight at cruise speed but nowhere else.

Now for the kicker. You stall going straight and uncoordinated, you gone spin. You stall in turn with too little rudder
then you bleed even more speed but you can get away with just loosening up the turn. You stall with too much rudder and
the spin you get will be sudden, fast and hard. That's accelerated. Still think to save learning rudder for later?
Sure you can avoid spin by using too little or no rudder but you also get a mushy, energy-bleeding turn even above stall.
Straight and level, like takeoff and landing, slip during stall means spin and fall.

Coordination in flight is like the body coordination to walk without spazzing it up. You might want to sometimes to
throw aim off you a bit but that's a controlled thing .