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Enofinu
12-27-2004, 12:12 AM
can you Please remove these cannons totally from german planes, they just make plane much heavier, i would like to use machineguns only because cannon damage from those are so weak, no mind using them, pls give us option to take machineguns only. and the weight we save by removing cannon and its ammo, we could use it to put some more armor to 109s, like thin layer of deltawood. so it would be really a hard case to shoot down after that. yea, im pissed off.

Enofinu
12-27-2004, 12:12 AM
can you Please remove these cannons totally from german planes, they just make plane much heavier, i would like to use machineguns only because cannon damage from those are so weak, no mind using them, pls give us option to take machineguns only. and the weight we save by removing cannon and its ammo, we could use it to put some more armor to 109s, like thin layer of deltawood. so it would be really a hard case to shoot down after that. yea, im pissed off.

Von_Zero
12-27-2004, 12:30 AM
The 109 has a cannon? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif haven't noticed.... are you refering to that thing shooting through the propeler hub? That's not a cannon, that's a paintball gun for practice, you can use it against friendly targets with no fear, it' wont't hurt them..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Bsnakeman
12-27-2004, 01:40 AM
Play with Realistic Gunnery off.
Best,

Enofinu
12-27-2004, 02:04 AM
Bsnakeman, i tend to play online, mostly full real.

and secondly, i dont have problems to hit enemies.

Enofinu
12-27-2004, 02:05 AM
Zero, dang, u hit the spot. of course LW pilots have to have some trainings too. now it all is so clear. .)

IIJG69_Kartofe
12-27-2004, 07:02 AM
Oh yes Mr Santa Claus..

And Maybe, if i'm not asking too much, a droptank for the 109 G10 ...

Thanks dear Santa (i've been a good boy all this year, ask my parents if you want)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

RAF74_Buzzsaw
12-27-2004, 01:42 PM
Luftwhine

Enofinu
12-27-2004, 01:44 PM
Buzzaw can go buzz somewhere else.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
12-27-2004, 01:54 PM
Include some tracks and research to prove your point Enofinu, otherwise its just another whine to improve your plane.

P.S. In regards to the 151/20's, anyone who has a problem in knocking wings off with this weapon needs to work on his skill levels and make sure their convergence is set optimally. Even the single engine mount 20mm in the F's and early G's can take off a aircraft wing with a three second burst. For the 190's with four 150/20's, it can be done with a single 1-2 sec burst.

p1ngu666
12-27-2004, 02:04 PM
i heard it was fixed ?

OldMan____
12-27-2004, 02:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw:
Include some tracks and research to prove your point Enofinu, otherwise its just another whine to improve your plane.

P.S. In regards to the 151/20's, anyone who has a problem in knocking wings off with this weapon needs to work on his skill levels. Even the single engine mount 20mm in the F's and early G's can take off a aircraft wing with a three second burst. For the 190's with four 150/20's, it can be done with a single 1-2 sec burst. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

think you dont get it.. 3 second burst? It was suposed to kill a not very armored fighter with 4 or 5 bullets... in other words HALF a second.



But afree people overclaim the bad 151. It is not that bad.. it is not a hispano.. but is still usefull.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
12-27-2004, 02:11 PM
Salute Oldman

No plane in this Sim kills with 1/2 second burst, unless it is Beaufighter with four 20mm/four .50 cal or German with Mk 108 or Soviet 37mm/45mm or U.S. 37mm.

Spitfire has two 20mm and two .50's and at convergence, it needs 1-2 seconds.

Only exception is when target is early Japanese.

Durabiity of all planes is higher than real life.

So complaining about 151/20 specifically is just a whine.

For realistic comparisons of WWII aerial weapons, see this site by acknowledged and published experts, Tony Williams and Emannuel Gunstin:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

p1ngu666
12-27-2004, 02:34 PM
try longer convergances with wing mounted guns. its funny when u remove the wings but leave the fusealarge untouched.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

faustnik
12-27-2004, 02:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw:
Include some tracks and research to prove your point Enofinu, otherwise its just another whine to improve your plane.

P.S. In regards to the 151/20's, anyone who has a problem in knocking wings off with this weapon needs to work on his skill levels and make sure their convergence is set optimally. Even the single engine mount 20mm in the F's and early G's can take off a aircraft wing with a three second burst. For the 190's with four 150/20's, it can be done with a single 1-2 sec burst. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your way off base on this Buzzsaw. The desparity between the Hispano and the Mg151/20 is far too pronounced in PF. You are right about this initial post, no useful data of any kind, but, if you do not think there is an issue with the MG151/20 you are flat out wrong.

Enofinu
12-27-2004, 02:58 PM
hehe, 3 sec burst with cannon to bring enemy down.. huh... why in the hell they even did use such cannon if it sucked so??
cant remember who told about weapon effectivnes in 3,03 version, that it was needed some 35 hits from .50 cal to bring enemy down while it took some 100 hits from 4 x 20mm and 2x 7,92mm:s hehe. nice.

there been so much discussion about the effect of MG151/20 that im getting sick of this. i would accept if mg151/20 would be removed totally from this sim. im just too sick about this now.

Recon_609IAP
12-27-2004, 03:07 PM
while your at it, fix my .50s as well - they are too weak.

Don't forget to speed up my favorite plane, it's way to slow and doesn't climb fast enough nor turn or roll well enough.

One day I will learn to fly and shoot, then you can adjust back - thanks

oh yeah, let's just remove it totally - I keep throwing up everytime it fires - lol

faustnik
12-27-2004, 03:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
while your at it, fix my .50s as well - they are too weak.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They did get fixed. Did you miss that?

OldMan____
12-27-2004, 03:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw:
Salute Oldman

No plane in this Sim kills with 1/2 second burst, unless it is Beaufighter with four 20mm/four .50 cal or German with Mk 108 or Soviet 37mm/45mm or U.S. 37mm.

Spitfire has two 20mm and two .50's and at convergence, it needs 1-2 seconds.

Only exception is when target is early Japanese.

Durabiity of all planes is higher than real life.

So complaining about 151/20 specifically is just a whine.

For realistic comparisons of WWII aerial weapons, see this site by acknowledged and published experts, Tony Williams and Emannuel Gunstin:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

maybe in your game.. since I never EVER shoot more than one second.. usully much shorter bursts and have plenety of kills in my FW190.

Fehler
12-27-2004, 04:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw:
Durabiity of all planes is higher than real life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most intelligent thing I have heard in a long time, and 100% agree.

anarchy52
12-27-2004, 05:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
try longer convergances with wing mounted guns. its funny when u remove the wings but leave the fusealarge untouched.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL I did that once in VWF - shot a 109 with spit IX and broke both his wings with fuselage and engine untouched http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
So much for the need for convergence with hispanos.

p1ngu666
12-27-2004, 06:54 PM
well, its less effecient, but so sweet when that happens http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

RAF74_Buzzsaw
12-27-2004, 06:55 PM
Salute

When I say all planes in IL-2 FB/PF take more damage than historically, I am not criticising Oleg.

I think people would complain too much if their aircraft were as vulnerable as they were in real life.

There would be no future for those furballers who plunge in with no thought for tactics.

Most people don't want to have to fly cautiously. Even though historically the really successful pilots never furballed, and often never got a single hit on them.

Those pilots who flew planes designed for turnfighting didn't last as long as those who flew aircraft which were designed with speed as their main attribute, and which were most often used with hit and run tactics.

Bull_dog_
12-27-2004, 07:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw:
Salute

When I say all planes in IL-2 FB/PF take more damage than historically, I am not criticising Oleg.

I think people would complain too much if their aircraft were as vulnerable as they were in real life.

There would be no future for those furballers who plunge in with no thought for tactics.

Most people don't want to have to fly cautiously. Even though historically the really successful pilots never furballed, and often never got a single hit on them.

Those pilots who flew planes designed for turnfighting didn't last as long as those who flew aircraft which were designed with speed as their main attribute, and which were most often used with hit and run tactics. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree with Buzzsaw completely on this one...and I'd add that while Oleg has produced the most complicate FM to date, there were more random factors involved in real life and I'd say the standard normal curve of possiblity was much wider...in that I mean variation per bullet...more golden bb's and more omfg I can't believe the plane didn't go down in real life than in this sim.

I can't count the times I've read where a pilot touched the guns and watched a plane disintigrate in fractions of a second...with HMG's and cannons....I tend to agree the mg151/20 are slightly undermodelled...I don't think alot, but I fly Fw's alot online and I can certainly get kills but I do have to stay on target a considerable amount of time to get first pass kills....of course I think most of the guns/damage, particularly online are a little less than real life

clint-ruin
12-27-2004, 08:30 PM
Rather than re-hash everything that has ever been said, I'd say another big factor is that in reality I would think that most pilots would be looking for a spot to put down or bail out after a very small number of 20mm hits. People fight til they die in the game, and complain that handling is affected by just a "couple of hits". Just because a plane is still airborne doesn't mean that it's still in any shape to fight, and if the pilot cared much for their life they'd be the hell out of there as soon as possible.

Firing time measurements are going to be fairly intensely subjective depending on hit location, hit effect, number of hits per second, etc. 8 .50 cals firing off AP/API through a fighter may well indeed be more effective at taking an aircraft out of a fight, than a comparatively smaller number of 20mm hits in the same amount of time. Weight of fire measured alone - even with explosive content - is only part of the picture. Should 3-4 20mm hits be really that much more effective than 20-30 12.7mm API strikes on a fighter? What are peoples expectations?

OldMan____
12-28-2004, 05:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
Rather than re-hash everything that has ever been said, I'd say another big factor is that in reality I would think that most pilots would be looking for a spot to put down or bail out after a very small number of 20mm hits. People fight til they die in the game, and complain that handling is affected by just a "couple of hits". Just because a plane is still airborne doesn't mean that it's still in any shape to fight, and if the pilot cared much for their life they'd be the hell out of there as soon as possible.

Firing time measurements are going to be fairly intensely subjective depending on hit location, hit effect, number of hits per second, etc. 8 .50 cals firing off AP/API through a fighter may well indeed be more effective at taking an aircraft out of a fight, than a comparatively smaller number of 20mm hits in the same amount of time. Weight of fire measured alone - even with explosive content - is only part of the picture. Should 3-4 20mm hits be really that much more effective than 20-30 12.7mm API strikes on a fighter? What are peoples expectations? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to agree. I am one that bail out at first cahnce when I am severily hit (and I fly a 190 that can fly a lot of time after het hit) If people flew like that.. there would me much less complains. I also do not fire until the plane is down (unless there is no one else near to be any threat)


In virtual wars that was not a problem, since most people ejected to not have a KILLED accounted on their log.

stef51
12-28-2004, 08:12 AM
Also agree very much on this. In real life, you could get a few hits and bail out.

Overall though, everyone must remember that a lot of potential damage locations are not included. Oxygen bottles, ammunition explosions, cooling system, etc were part of real life and were involved in aircrafts destructions. As long as we have the current damage model, it will never be like in real life. Therefore, to achieve kills like in real life, or for compensation because we miss important damage locations, people want more power from guns.

And as hard as it can be, the first thing would be to include and refine the damage model. After that, guns could be refine..

My humble opinion... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Stephen

anarchy52
12-28-2004, 08:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stef51:
Also agree very much on this. In real life, you could get a few hits and bail out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes if I had zero-zero seat.
But in VWII bailing out was almost as risky as ditching/crashlanding.

stef51
12-28-2004, 01:36 PM
[/QUOTE]
Yes if I had zero-zero seat.
But in VWII bailing out was almost as risky as ditching/crashlanding.[/QUOTE]


Yes, but taking all the complexity of fear of dying while being shot at, including the experience of combat, morale, loyalty to your country, etc, I'd guess most novice pilots would behave this way mainly in the USSR. I consider panic as one important ingredient that would make you bailout...It would be in my case with a 190 behind me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Stephen

NorrisMcWhirter
12-29-2004, 11:48 AM
Hi,

Buzzsaw is trolling; he knows as well as anyone else that the 151/20 fares least well of all the cannons modelled when, in fact, it was weaker than the Hispano but not by as much as in this game.

Using his own words, 3-4 seconds worth of hits to chop a wing off is a joke.

Cause? Marketing reasons, I have no doubt.

Cheers,
Norris

faustnik
12-29-2004, 12:13 PM
Norris,

The Mg151/20 minengeschloss shell was not weaker than the Hispano's HE round, far from it. LW testing determined that explosive force was more damaging that kinetic energy against aircraft targets.

"Flying Guns of World War Two" rates the destructive effects of the Mg151 higher than the Hispano (that's not my opinion but, that of the experts in the field). In the sim the Mg151/20 is much weaker.

VMF-214_HaVoK
12-29-2004, 12:46 PM
Just lastnite I decided to fly blue for awhile. So I flew the FW-A6 and I was folding planes just as easy as anyother armorment in the game. Maybe some should work on there gunnery skills. This is just my experience with them. GL with your quest but I dont see whats wrong with them.

faustnik
12-29-2004, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Just lastnite I decided to fly blue for awhile. So I flew the FW-A6 and I was folding planes just as easy as anyother armorment in the game. Maybe some should work on there gunnery skills. This is just my experience with them. GL with your quest but I dont see whats wrong with them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So all "armorments" act the same to you?

OldMan____
12-29-2004, 01:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Just lastnite I decided to fly blue for awhile. So I flew the FW-A6 and I was folding planes just as easy as anyother armorment in the game. Maybe some should work on there gunnery skills. This is just my experience with them. GL with your quest but I dont see whats wrong with them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that is a problem, since FW190 A should be the strongest hitting proppelor fighter plane in game. And it needs 4 cannons to be just regular. Dora should be a regular.. almost strong firepower plane.. and is a weak firepower plane. MG151 is quite effective when you can hit from sharp angles (directly from above, flat to surface) , but is very bad at angles. Hispanos are effective anyway.. and that is wahy 151 seems much weaker.

NorrisMcWhirter
12-29-2004, 02:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Norris,

The Mg151/20 minengeschloss shell was not weaker than the Hispano's HE round, far from it. LW testing determined that explosive force was more damaging that kinetic energy against aircraft targets.

"Flying Guns of World War Two" rates the destructive effects of the Mg151 _higher_ than the Hispano (that's not my opinion but, that of the experts in the field). In the sim the Mg151/20 is much weaker. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

I was using the comparisons given in Aeroplane Monthly from one of the early autumn editions where it was shown that the Hispano was ~1.5x as powerful as the 151/20. Of course, it didn't say which type of round was compared (AFAIK) so you may well be right.

So, Faust, you are also suggesting that the 190 should be as hard hitting as, say, the 4-cannon Corsair? Just compare the two - there is no comparison.

I do enjoy it when someone who normally flies allied suggests improving gunnery when they can easily cripple aircraft with a long range (s)pray of wonder .50s

As I've said before, in Oleg's marketing-affected world, the 190 is not a butcherbird but a veggie bird.

Cheers,
Norris

faustnik
12-29-2004, 02:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:

I was using the comparisons given in Aeroplane Monthly from one of the early autumn editions where it was shown that the Hispano was ~1.5x as powerful as the 151/20. Of course, it didn't say which type of round was compared (AFAIK) so you may well be right.

So, Faust, you are also suggesting that the 190 should be as hard hitting as, say, the 4-cannon Corsair? Just compare the two - there is _no comparison_.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1.5 times as powerful for the Hispano HE sounds right compared to the standard 151/20 HE round but, not the MgL (minengeschloss) round. The MgL had 2.5x more explosive content than the Hispano round so much more explosive (shock wave) force. The power of the MgL round was why Mr. Williams determined the high destructive power of the Mg 151/20.

What tests does Aeroplane Monthly cite in it's report? I bet it is the old RAF test done with the MgFF HE rounds.

From what I have read on the subject, yes, the Fw190A series should come close to the F4u-1C in damage efects against soft targets including aircraft. Against tanks the four Hispanos would be superior.

Speaking of tanks "Flying Guns of World War Two" has some eye opening data on tank kills from a/c. Basically there were very few. Rockets had extremely poor accuracy and a large percentage failed to detonate. .50 and Hispano 20mm were very innefective against German tanks.

VW-IceFire
12-29-2004, 03:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Just lastnite I decided to fly blue for awhile. So I flew the FW-A6 and I was folding planes just as easy as anyother armorment in the game. Maybe some should work on there gunnery skills. This is just my experience with them. GL with your quest but I dont see whats wrong with them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its not gunnery skills...otherwise it'd be limited to certain people having the problem and it would also be discounted when testing against static targets or eliminated through repeatable testing.

NorrisMcWhirter
12-29-2004, 06:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Just lastnite I decided to fly blue for awhile. So I flew the FW-A6 and I was folding planes just as easy as anyother armorment in the game. Maybe some should work on there gunnery skills. This is just my experience with them. GL with your quest but I dont see whats wrong with them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its not gunnery skills...otherwise it'd be limited to certain people having the problem and it would also be discounted when testing against static targets or eliminated through repeatable testing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We know it's not gunnery, anyway - that's just a quick snipe by those who know the score but who would rather retain a piss-poor 151/20 for fear of it downing their ride (in fact, just imagine how much better the 190 would be if it had the hitting power of the cannon Corsair or Beau..!) Besides, I mimicked Koro's AI killing in a P38 (but with 8 targets) and downed the lot, still having ammo left....I'm no "ace" but I score consistently online so I don't think my gunnery is the issue.

Faustnik:

In the report (Sept 2004, page 62), Anthony G Williams (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/) compares the following:

MG151/20
Cal: 20x82
Bullet weight: 92g
Muzzle vel: 800 m/s
r.p.s: 12
weight of fire: 1.10 kg/s
destruct effect: 192
gun weight: 42
gun effic: 4.6

Hispano II:
Cal: 20x110
Bullet weight: 130g
Muzzle vel: 860 m/s
r.p.s: 10
weight of fire: 1.30 kg/s
destruct effect: 200
gun weight: 50
gun effic: 4.0

Hispano V:
Cal: 20x110
Bullet weight: 130g
Muzzle vel: 830 m/s
r.p.s: 12.5
weight of fire: 1.62 kg/s
destruct effect: 250
gun weight: 42
gun effic: 6.0

destruct effect quoted as being an approximate indication of gun power calculated from

proj weight * muzzle vel * r.p.s. * "multiplier for the 'average % of incendiary or HE material, e.g. 5% content = *1.5, 10% = *2 etc)"

It also shows the destruct effect of the 12.7mm berezin to be ~1.5 times as powerful as the .50 cal. Interestingly, the shVAK has a destruct value of 143 which is significantly lower than the 151/20 but which does not really reflect this game.

The most 'efficient' gun, by a long stretch, is cited as being the mk108 which has a destruct value of 580, which sort of makes a travesty of P47s requiring 4-6 good hits.



Cheers,
Norris

faustnik
12-29-2004, 09:35 PM
Thanks Norris. That's a slightly different combination of numbers that the one given in the book. Sam result though, the Hispano and the Mg151 should be even in net damage effects.

Before anyone says it, I know there are many factors involved, but, as Oleg said, he has to work within the limits of the technology. It would be nice to see some adjustments made.

VW-IceFire
12-29-2004, 10:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Thanks Norris. That's a slightly different combination of numbers that the one given in the book. Sam result though, the Hispano and the Mg151 should be even in net damage effects.

Before anyone says it, I know there are many factors involved, but, as Oleg said, he has to work within the limits of the technology. It would be nice to see some adjustments made. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed...limits of technology...adjustments to make things most realistic as possible within those limits.

That Hispano Mark V is a brute of a cannon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

faustnik
12-29-2004, 10:26 PM
I know you are eyeing those Hispano MkV numbers Icefire! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
12-30-2004, 04:39 AM
Hi,

Does anyone have a breakdown of aircraft type vs Hispano type carried?

e.g.

Spitfire Mk Vb had Hispano Mk?
Spitfire Mk IX had Hispano Mk?
Beaufighter 21 had Hispano Mk?

etc

?

Presumably, all the Hispano carrying aircraft in the game carry the same type because there appears to be no difference between hitting power - is this correct?

Regards,
Norris

faustnik
12-30-2004, 11:16 AM
Norris,

All the Hispano armed a/c that we currently have in the sim have the MkII version. The Tempest might have the MkV version with a higher ROF.

NorrisMcWhirter
12-30-2004, 12:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Norris,

All the Hispano armed a/c that we currently have in the sim have the MkII version. The Tempest might have the MkV version with a higher ROF. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

On that basis, assuming the charts given are correct, the Hispano should be almost identical to the 151/20 in hitting power. How does the comparison stack up in terms of % of ME rounds against % of 'equivalent' rounds for Hispano? Can we really compare like for like?

If so, that really puts things into perspective for me about how "inaccurate" the 151/20 actually is.

Cheers,
Norris

faustnik
12-30-2004, 12:12 PM
No, you can't really compare directly, it's not that simple. The Hispano loadout is 1AP/1HE. The Mg151/20 loadout is 1AP/2HE/2MgL. The Hispano has much better AP power, the MgL rounds give the Mg151 better explosive power. What Mr. Williams attempted to to was compare all the factors and come up with a generalized comparison of relative power. He rated the guns equal.

To really model things correctly in PF would take a major addition of explosive force modeling from what I can tell/guess. Shock waves are not surrently modeled, only shrapnel effects (just trying to guess here).

A way to tweak the current system would be to simply increase the shrapnel effects of the MgL rounds to simulate the greater shock wave force. It wouldn't be perfect but, would help with simulating the power of the weapon.

So Mg151 would have a 1 AP round that goes ping, 2 HE rounds that go pop and 2 MgL rounds the go bam and really hurt. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

clint-ruin
12-30-2004, 12:20 PM
Should mention also that the HEs tend to do better with a high deflection hit against a flat surface than the APs will. Even the NS-45 AP will occasionally just go "puff" through a wing or tailplane if the round doesn't manage to intersect the wing spar. The NS45 HEI round will occasionally burst against a thin presentation of a surface [ie rear aspect tailplane] and destroy only one side of an elevator or similar too.

The thing is, most people tend to want to shoot from right behind, and at least in the game the APs start drilling through the wing spars and pilot armor ...

One other thing that might help differenciate the HE and AP rounds is to make control cable damage much less likely with straight AP than HE. Shooting a thin wire with a plain old AP round is just likely to push it out of the way in most cases, HE should be quite capable of severing them with a near-hit.

faustnik
12-30-2004, 01:06 PM
Good points Clint. The more you look at the subject, the more complicated it gets. You can sure see Oleg's difficulties in modeling so many factors. The .50 hit reducing the lift on a Fw190s wing is interesting. I don't think a few .50 holes would cause this but a 20mm MgL hit would even without good deflection.


While I may point out some issues with the Mg151, I sure do not want to overstate the issue. The Mg151/20 work, it kills stuff. In PF 3.03 it's better than a .50 cal and worse the a Hispano, so the 151 model is with the range of believability.

******************

An Ns-45 HE round hitting a fighter and not rendering it unusable just drives me nuts. Pet peeve left over from flying the Cobra all the time and wathcing 109s suck up mutliple 37mm HE hits, yeah right. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

P.S. Sorry for rambling. I have a bad migraine today and can barely think. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
12-30-2004, 01:37 PM
I know it's not that simple - that was what I was getting at (but should have said) with respect to different 'shells on the belt'

So, maybe we can say one of two things here:

a. The 151/20 is modelled correctly because only every "n"th hit it should be as powerful as a Hispano hit.

b. The 151/20 should be given a more generalised model where it is 192/200 times as powerful as the Hispano because, relatively speaking, that is how they compare.

If case a is true, then that's fair enough; I don't want to see something that is historically incorrect.

But, if it isn't, why not settle on case b using the logic that, if the game cannot model explosions correctly, then it cannot model the 151/20 correctly so nothing is lost in having a general model that exhibits the correct relative performance.

Cheers,
Norris

VW-IceFire
12-30-2004, 04:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Hi,

Does anyone have a breakdown of aircraft type vs Hispano type carried?

e.g.

Spitfire Mk Vb had Hispano Mk?
Spitfire Mk IX had Hispano Mk?
Beaufighter 21 had Hispano Mk?

etc

?

Presumably, all the Hispano carrying aircraft in the game carry the same type because there appears to be no difference between hitting power - is this correct?

Regards,
Norris <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
All planes that we have in this game using Hispano or Hispano derived 20mm cannons are using the Mark II model. That inclues the 20mm cannon on the P-38...which is a US version of the Hispano cannon which is essentially the same as a Mark II. I'm not sure if the game considers it the same weapon or different.

The only plane that we have so far that mounted the Mark V cannon was the Seafire III. Some were Mark V type, some were Mark II type. Nyme modeled the ones with the Mark II since that was most numerous.

The only fighters armed with the Mark V during WWII, to my knowledge, are the Meteor Mark III (maybe earlier versions) and the Tempest Mark V Series 2.

Alex Voicu's Tempest V is a Series 2 variant (which was by far the most numerous) and therefore *should* be armed with the Hispano V in-game. The way you can tell on the Tempest is to look at the wings. If the wings are smooth on the leading edges around where the cannons are then its a Series 2. If its a Series 1, there will be two small protrusions (on each wing) from the cannon barrels...much like the Typhoon or Spitfire except measuring less than a meter forward. The Mark II barrel is longer and therefore sticks out.

Hptm.Keule
12-30-2004, 04:19 PM
MG 151?20 weak?
They were weak long time ago.
Now they are not weak.
Advice:Put Your gunsight at the enemys main fuel tank, push the triger ang forget about him!
Such pleasure! I have done It many times!

Read this:

"&lt;&lt;Reinhard, Reinhard, wake up ! Thunderbolt behind !&gt;&gt; Reinhard does not reply, but keeps on calmly blazing away at his Fortress. I go flat out over the Thunderbolts. The first of them now opens fire on my wingman. The latter just keeps on firing at his victim. But now the leading Thunderbolt is a perfect target in my sights. A single burst of fire from my guns is all that is needed. It bursts into flames and goes down spinning like a dead leaf into the depths below. It is my second kill today."
Heinz Knocke's War Diary

Regards!

faustnik
12-30-2004, 04:36 PM
Alrighty then...easy on the schnapps Hauptmann, drinking and flying don't mix.

VOL_Hans
12-31-2004, 12:31 AM
The MG151/20 has been IMPROVED at a very slow pace over several patches. It still does not offer up realistic punch, but it has gotten better.

5 or 6 20mm shells was often said to be plenty to tear a fighter apart, but the German MG-151/20 often takes many more hits than that.

karost
12-31-2004, 01:01 AM
Hi http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

humm..Clint show a good point for me also NorrisMcWhirter too :

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
I know it's not that simple - that was what I was getting at (but should have said) with respect to different 'shells on the belt'

So, maybe we can say one of two things here:

a. The 151/20 is modelled correctly because only every "n"th hit it should be as powerful as a Hispano hit.

b. The 151/20 should be given a more generalised model where it is 192/200 times as powerful as the Hispano because, relatively speaking, that is how they compare.

If case a is true, then that's fair enough; I don't want to see something that is historically incorrect.

But, if it isn't, why not settle on case b using the logic that, if the game cannot model explosions correctly, then it cannot model the 151/20 correctly so nothing is lost in having a general model that exhibits the correct relative performance.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mk 108 had that kind of DM of "HE" effect right?
(for programming concept) why not call mk108_DamageMethod() but reduce a percentate for demage power same 151/20 HE,MG just 30%-40% per round , I think (IMHO) they did that already but result it become out of "compromise" ,your know that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif if one second bursh = 10 round of 151/20 = 2xAP + 4xHE +4xMG ( with mk108_DamageMethod() x 30% ) will knoc P-47 engine same like a history did but what about our red friends.. they agree for that ?

sorry for my bad english
S!

jurinko
12-31-2004, 12:09 PM
usual online stuff.. planes taking plenty of hits from 6 guns of Fw190.. and Spit needs just half second burst from almost 500 (five hunder) meters to wreck the Fw and to kill the pilot (me)

http://www.scitech.sk/~jurinko/HL_190A4fight1.ntrk

Atomic_Marten
12-31-2004, 12:22 PM
MGFF.

Also imagine my level of anger, when I lost elevator two times in a row because of 7,62mm fire from Bf109F4, while flying LA5 -&gt; those weren't aimed bursts, since it was from side in head-on..(I've developed some complexes when flying LA5; I feel whenever Bf109 hit me I will lost elevator). There's no rules.. online that is.

And of course I'm not BSing you here.

No601_prangster
12-31-2004, 12:56 PM
It not the gun its the man using it that counts. Realy men fly Gladiators with 4 x .303. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Copperhead310th
01-01-2005, 10:24 PM
What the 190 pilots don't realize is how much damage is being done that they "CANNOT SEE".
A P-47 is a tough airplane. we all know this.
no one will argue that point. but i have repatedly had my gunsight shot out, been wounded, lost controls ect. by 151/20's.
they are far more efective than you realize.
and since the last 2 patches i now find my self taking taking hits from 151/20's....and having my plane almost flip inverted with the force of the impact. this is happening with like 60% or more of the fire i'm taking from 190's.

karost
01-02-2005, 12:26 AM
after I test coop for patch 3.30 with 190D set convergent mashinegun=275.0 cannon=200.0 , I can knock P-51 on fire in one pass with "all gun" that is a first time for over two years play online in this sim.

question
=======
- 151/20 seem more harder or DM in P-51 tough down or convergent ( I never set cannon lower then 300 before ) ?

how about a single 151/20 in bf-109
- did anyone take a single 151/20 in bf-109 ( not include 13mm machine gun ) knock P-51 or P-47 in one pass , please share "how you do like that" mey be I not smart enought to use this gun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


as we may read alot of LW history can do like that.....Opps sorry I forgot onething history is history and game is game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Edit:

Hi,jurinko thanks for your track file
I saw that you'er good in enegery management 2x spitfire should lose the wings or PK from your 151/20s but only one, mostly you make a good snapshot shoot and hit with damage spitfire but still fly and make a combat, for the final one 20mm hit your from 510 meter is lucky kill or what ever which I don't know, I cannot do like that , btw why you not close a Reticle Dimmer in your gunsight http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Happy New Year to you All.



S!

carguy_
01-02-2005, 03:19 AM
I don`t fly FW190 because of the fuel bug.If MG151/20 was close to correctly modelled I wouldn`t need anything bigger than default loadout for the G6 if I aim for fighters only.

Sorry I take up a yak,fill him from dead six from 90m with 1/3 of my ammo and he begins to spill fuel I regret choosing MG151.

When I had lots of time online I told myself not to choose the MK108 in coops.Well it turned out that 30% of my "kills" must have been taken care of by teammates because I ran out of ammo prematurely it seems.

Aaaaand if you choose this weapon for bombers you ain`t gonna take more than one!

OldMan____
01-02-2005, 04:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
What the 190 pilots don't realize is how much damage is being done that they "CANNOT SEE".
A P-47 is a tough airplane. we all know this.
no one will argue that point. but i have repatedly had my gunsight shot out, been wounded, lost controls ect. by 151/20's.
they are far more efective than you realize.
and since the last 2 patches i now find my self taking taking hits from 151/20's....and having my plane almost flip inverted with the force of the impact. this is happening with like 60% or more of the fire i'm taking from 190's. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have to agree on this one. But is very frustating for a 190 pilot to not obliterate thingsin front of it even with 3 or 4 second burts. But the point is where to shhot. Other day I shot down a P47 with a single touch on my MG trigger... 3 or 4 bullets on engine hood.. it stoped

tigertalon
01-02-2005, 04:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw:
Include some tracks and research to prove your point Enofinu, otherwise its just another whine to improve your plane.

P.S. In regards to the 151/20's, anyone who has a problem in knocking wings off with this weapon needs to work on his skill levels and make sure their convergence is set optimally. Even the single engine mount 20mm in the F's and early G's can take off a aircraft wing with a three second burst. For the 190's with four 150/20's, it can be done with a single 1-2 sec burst. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to German records, it was needed 3-5 Mk108 hits, to bring down a B17, while one hit was in most cases enough, to bring down twin-engined AC!!! (now, imagine a hit on a fighter...)

And about Mg151/20: It was on average needed 20-25 hits to bring down a B-17!!!!

To prove the refferences, I will go to library for book, but the other I have here at home, it is:
Peter Caygill: Focke-Wulf Fw 190, several pages.

Now, IMO, all german weapons are undermodelled. Especially Mg151/20, but look also at Rheinmetall Mg's... Mg17, Mg15 etc... What are they there for? In WW2 some german pilots disliked using 20mm on Emils, but still got victories, only with 7,92mm...


You have to keep in mind, that everyone of us is a real ace compared to WW2 RL pilots both in regard of flying and in regard of shooting. They never got a second chance... We are all flying like at least one hour a day... In WW2 many novice pilots discharged their entire ammo loads without a single hit!

jurinko
01-02-2005, 04:55 AM
All pictures are about the same Spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/webfiles/spit_dm01.JPG

http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/webfiles/spit_dm02.JPG

http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/webfiles/spit_dm03.JPG

http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/webfiles/spit_dm04.JPG

http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/webfiles/spit_dm05.JPG

http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/webfiles/spit_dm06.JPG

http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/webfiles/spit_dm07.JPG

http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/webfiles/spit_dm08.JPG

http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/webfiles/spit_dm09.JPG

I started to think about taran.

http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/webfiles/HL_190A8shootsP38L+SpitMkIX.ntrk

karost
01-02-2005, 05:22 AM
WoW.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

jurinko , do your load 1xAP + 4x paintball in you 151/20 ammo combination ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Thanks jurinko for your share

anyone have something funny like this please share

S~

WWMaxGunz
01-02-2005, 05:27 AM
I think if you have a track and check with arcade=1 playback, you will find those big
orange flashes to be from incendiary hits, not frag types. Also from the closeby miss
tracers it looks like at least a couple were edge clipping hits if it's any consolation.
But either damage did accumulate or that wing can off from one good hit.

To tell the truth, it bothers me most when the hits like that are on the canopy or engine
and... nada, zip, zilch, zero effect.

I wonder if that target was having any trouble maneuvering during all that?

NorrisMcWhirter
01-02-2005, 05:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
What the 190 pilots don't realize is how much damage is being done that they "CANNOT SEE".
A P-47 is a tough airplane. we all know this.
no one will argue that point. but i have repatedly had my gunsight shot out, been wounded, lost controls ect. by 151/20's.
they are far more efective than you realize.
and since the last 2 patches i now find my self taking taking hits from 151/20's....and having my plane almost flip inverted with the force of the impact. this is happening with like 60% or more of the fire i'm taking from 190's. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have to agree on this one. But is very frustating for a 190 pilot to not obliterate thingsin front of it even with 3 or 4 second burts. But the point is where to shhot. Other day I shot down a P47 with a single touch on my MG trigger... 3 or 4 bullets on engine hood.. it stoped <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

I don't think any 190 pilot is expecting to cause a P47 to explode with a short burst of 20mm hits but they are within their rights to expect it to go down with a good 3-4 seconds burst when you aim at a wing root or the cockpit.

What is more annoying about the 151/20 is it's effect on planes which were known to be "weaker" than the P47 such as most of the VVS entries.

Besides, we're not discussing the P47; I'm more interested in whether the 151/20 is modelled well in relation to the Hispano because, at the moment, one of them appears to be stronger than it should be or the other one is weaker than it should be.

Cheers,
Norris

VW-IceFire
01-02-2005, 09:02 AM
jurinko, having been on both sides of an engagement such as the one you have posted I both feel your pain and understand what its like to go through. But its not just the Spitfire either...although as a Spitfire pilot more often then not...I am sometimes mystified at a MG151 hit that I take with relatively no effect...its like it never hit me at all. Its not just the Spitfire...but its because its a likely foe. Hit the Spitfire with a few MG-FF or a Type 99 and they get hurt very badly.

Also, handling does decrease very substantially with the wing causing alot of drag once hit. Its a larger wing with less loading than the FW so its not quite as bad...but it makes a tight turn impossible. So take some comfort...the reason you probably got this guy is because you hurt his planes ability to manuver properly. But still...the 151 should do more.

jurinko
01-02-2005, 10:48 AM
And another one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Full hit from 6 guns @80 m: ok ok it was dead six, let´s forget about it.

http://www.scitech.sk/~jurinko/online01.JPG


This time we will hit the engine, fuselage, cockpit area from nice flat angle..

http://www.scitech.sk/~jurinko/online02.JPG


..and the same situation from the other side. Enemy produces a shy thin stream of smoke but its performance seems to be unimpaired.

http://www.scitech.sk/~jurinko/online03.JPG


This plane was already chewed by other guys so it should be no problem.. but after concentrated fire hitting the left wing, nothing serious happens, except the unimportant texture change.

http://www.scitech.sk/~jurinko/online04.JPG


BUT! now it´s the Hispano turn! Short burst at half km kills the pilot..

http://www.scitech.sk/~jurinko/online05.JPG


...and perforates the fuselage like cheese. Dead pilot fortunately doesn´t need to worry about instant speed drop, fuel tank emptied in 20s and crate changed to uncontrollable piece of iron falling to one side.

http://www.scitech.sk/~jurinko/online06.JPG

http://www.scitech.sk/~jurinko/HL_190A4fight1.ntrk

Sig.Hirsch
01-02-2005, 04:49 PM
MG151/20 is undermodelled . fact .
Will it be fixed by oleg ? . no for sure , Oleg think it's correct .

The topic is 1 year old , and according to books and veterans reports Hispanos and Mauser should do about the same in term of destructive effect on the target (slight adv. to HS).
In game it's not , because HE rounds are not enough effective ingame , in IL-2 AP rounds are the most efficient ammo while that is not true IRL (depends where you hit) .
Let's hope for BoB , things will get more accurate , i learned to appreciate IL-2 gunnery as it is .

arrow80
01-04-2005, 02:49 PM
bump!

WWMaxGunz
01-05-2005, 02:40 AM
It also depends on where and how you hit in the sim. AP only good if it connects with
something solid or critical, as are fragments from HE. Shooting from close to or at
six, most every solid and critical part of the plane is all lined up and easier to hit.

I fired loads of shots into Tu engine pods to no effect, then Clint showed links to
pictures... I was hitting the very solid landing gear behind the engine. Even AP had
a hard time.

Still from screenshots by Faustnik on the backs of wings, either the 151/20's bounce
from the angle or they don't seem to make much kinetic effect on impact because I think
that 12.7mm would destroy wings with less. Those HE and MG shells even without exploding
do have considerable mass and speed even if not like Hispano AP and HE, more total than
Browning .50?

.50 AP___ : mass 0.0485 kg, speed at muzzle 870 m/s
151/20 MG : mass 0.092 kg, speed at muzzle 775 m/s

Kinetic is by 1/2 speed squared
.50 AP at muzzle 756900 x .0485 / 2 = 18355 rounded.
151 MG at muzzle 600625 x .0920 / 2 = 27629 rounded.

The speed of the MG with lower density will probably drop off faster (maybe not, drag
is by different factors but as size grows the mass is cube and plate area is the square
so bigger gets more efficient when all else is the same, but they are not else same)
but even so there is a range not so close where they have the same kinetic hit.
Be careful making conclusions of that... first we would need to know what is happening
in the sim and we do not. Are how many glancing off the wing at close angle? Is the
explosion modelled meaning no kinetic calculated? Is a dud also no kinetic? Is there
really loads of damage that the screenshot is not showing? No good at all to make claims
without knowing all these things... 1C checks the claim and if they find not true then
future discussion is not checked because !!! it takes time to check and they don't have
time to waste !!!. So bad claims are worse than anything, they close the door then lock
it.

OldMan____
01-05-2005, 03:52 AM
Just some more info. Usually pure kynetic energy is not the best way to measure damage potential for solid collisions. That is because the masses have a propertie of energy transmission.

A linear to speed aproach is much closer to real results. So an impulse based calculation is a more acurate guess.

Speed is very important in penetration, but DAMAGE is not only penetration, it needs energy being transformed in mechanical work.. not heat to be effective.

So the damage difference between an .50 and MG151 API muzzle is bigger than that.

WWMaxGunz
01-05-2005, 04:06 AM
Agree that momentum is the bone of damage but penetration and shock go by kinetic.
So anyway I used the worse compare and still hit for hit a dud MG shell should make
more AP damage just by kinetic than Browning .50's at least at close range IMO.

Why I did all that is Faustniks' many posted screenshots of hits in arcade mode
with related damage or seeming lack... if those are .50's then I think it would
be worse but only 1C can say for sure. Just thinking that maybe such comparison
would raise interest at 1C should they see this after getting back next week.