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View Full Version : Aonther question about landing,sorry. :s



blazer-glory
05-30-2005, 01:16 PM
I was practicing landing in a LaGG but found, as I reduced speed to about 90 and raised the nose in preparation of touching down,I started to climb again. It that really possible or is it just a quirk of the game? When taking off I usually can't start climbing till Im well over 100.

ColoradoBBQ
05-30-2005, 01:29 PM
WIth landing flaps, you will be climbing if you have enough power from the engine.

blazer-glory
05-30-2005, 01:36 PM
So I guess the trick is that once Ive touched down, raise my flaps. Is that how its done in real life?

Butonga
05-30-2005, 02:41 PM
Well, I do alot of flying as a crewman in real life. If we do full stops, the flaps stay down even after touching down and stabelizing. This is on a C-130 which is very different from a tail dragger. (edit: we do bring it to 0% while taxing to park...unless we go through the bird bath)

I have played many sims and what I have noticed is if you set 50% flaps and you do nothing at all except keep the nose pointed down the runway and increase speed, that eventually the plane will raise nose first. If you set 100% flaps in the same situation, the plane will raise, but it will raise tail first.

From that, I would think that in a tail dragger, once you set down and intend to stop, the last thing you want is flaps set in such a way as to pull the tail up, as that would lead to you tipping the plane end over end right when you touch your breaks. I would bet the CG for tail draggers is already way forward, 100% flaps bring it even more forward.

I had a very hard time landing without tipping over till I started raising the flaps to 0% right when I touch down. Actually...before that, I never had a landing where the plane could be used again. Once I started raising the flaps to 0%, landings where the plane stops in full working condition was a lot easier.

I don't know if you have to raise the flaps to 0% in real life for a tail dragger, but thats what I do in the game as well.

Woof603
05-30-2005, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by blazer-glory:
So I guess the trick is that once Ive touched down, raise my flaps. Is that how its done in real life?

No, in R/L the flaps are left down until you exit the runway.

ColoradoBBQ
05-30-2005, 04:21 PM
The best way to land is to understand that in a lwo speed landing, your pitch controls the speed while your throttle controls the decent. I keep my speed by keeping the nose high enough to see the runway while glancing at the variometer and speedometer to make sure that the plane isn't going to stall out and crash. I give a bit of throttle before touching the runway to set it down gently.

LStarosta
05-30-2005, 04:52 PM
In real life it doesn't matter when you set the flaps back up. Flaps will help you slow down, but any time you're rolling (aka not anywhere near your rotation airspeed) is okay to put flaps up. I tend to put them back up as soon as possible because I hate taxiing a low wing aircraft through rough sh1t with my flaps down. It took a few reprimands to drill that into my head.

Taylortony
05-30-2005, 04:56 PM
I find that by the time the prop has chewed through the runway surface several rotations and I have selected Undercarriage off........... it slows rapidly, on a serious note i often bang in bootfulls of rudder and sideslip it in, that bleeds energy off quicker than a dose of the squirts..............

PBNA-Boosher
05-30-2005, 06:14 PM
Landings are somewhat screwed up a bit in this game. In real life, ground effect takes place when you're less than the wingspan high off the ground. It puts a cushion of air under you which allows you to flare the aircraft easily and touch down smoothly. Keep the flaps down until you're on the taxiway. You want to make sure you slow yourself down as fast as possible, right?

TX-EcoDragon
05-30-2005, 08:47 PM
In the sim it can be handy to retract flaps after touchdown to reduce the tendency of the aircraft to lift off again, or roll off onto either wing as they often do if you are a little too quick in pulling the stick back. The funny thing I have found with the sim is that it seems like even if you are already in the three point attitude (tailwheel and main gear on the ground) pulling the elevator back further can cause the aircraft to stall (with an associated wing drop tendency), even though the angle of attack of the wing clearly isn't increased in this situation. This much is unique to the sim. For a sim pilot there really isn't any compelling reason that I can think of not to retract flaps after touchdown.

As far as the real world, well, it depends on who you ask! Back in WWII generally flaps were left alon until clear of the runway. Most flight training facilities, airlines, insurance companies, flight instructors in complex aircraft, etc. will generally frown on flap retraction while the aircraft is on the landing rollout because of the risk of inadvertent gear retraction if the pilot grabs the wrong lever. This can be a real risk in some aircraft types which have very close proximity between the levers, in particular when the pilot flys many different types of aircraft. Many of the arguments against this practice say that any increased performance is offset by the risks involved.

Despite this it is often done by pilots that feel, rightly or wrongly, that they are able to do this without undue risk.
I generally retract flaps after touchdown if I am landing on other than a dry, hard-surfaced runway, if I am operating on a short strip, if there is a strong crosswind, if there is debris/obstructions on the landing surface, etc. If I am flying something new to me I will usually avoid these situations in the first place, but I will also do a thorough pre-takeoff cockpit check to verify where things are without the need to look at them. The idea isn't to blindly make configuration changes so much as is to know right where to look to verify that you are reaching for the correct lever!

Making a quick transfer of the weight of the aircraft from the wings to the gear is the main reason this is done, as at speeds well below the stall speed it is still possible to lighten the wheels enough to skid them (or hydroplane in wet conditions)if the brakes are applied as back pressure is increased, in particular on dirt, grass, wet surfaces etc.
It also aids in control surface authority on the ground where flaps may blanket the tail group, and the flaps may increase lateral drift due to any crosswind component. This is also handy in the event that an emergency go around is required in which flaps may significantly reduce takeoff performance.

vocatx
05-30-2005, 09:08 PM
I recently have been flying the off-line campaign "Battle Over Britian" by Extreme One and Poymando. I had never bothered to really fly the Hurricane up to that point. If you want an easy to land fighter to practice takeoffs and landings, it would be hard to beat the Hurricane. It has a nice thick high-lift wing and a wide track landing gear. With practice it is possible to make a three point landing with absolutely no bounce at all. I even made a couple of landings (luck) that were so smooth I couldn't tell when the wheels touched the runway. The Gladiator is another plane in the sim that is easy to land, but the gear track is a little narrow and the visibilty from the pilot's seat is somewhat limited due to the biplane configuration, though not to the extent of the I-153 or the Cr. 42.

Practice makes perfect! (Or at least a more than one mission aircraft.)

Tully__
05-30-2005, 11:49 PM
The trick to landing is making your approach at the lowest speed that maintains good control, then flying level a few inches (a few cm) off the runway with the throttle all the way off.

As you slow down, gradually raise the nose to stay just off the runway. Eventually you'll be going too slow to keep flying, at which time the plane will stall onto the ground and you're now landed and taxiing.

One of the differences between a good landing technique and a bad one is that the approach speed just reaching the runway in good technique is very close to the speed at which the aircraft will stall onto the runway. If the technique is bad you'll be too slow and descending too fast (causing bounce or a crash) or too fast and descending too slow causing problems sticking to the runway, big bounces or a very long flare and problems stopping before runway's end.

Butonga
05-31-2005, 06:53 AM
As far as the real world, well, it depends on who you ask! Back in WWII generally flaps were left alon until clear of the runway. Most flight training facilities, airlines, insurance companies, flight instructors in complex aircraft, etc. will generally frown on flap retraction while the aircraft is on the landing rollout because of the risk of inadvertent gear retraction if the pilot grabs the wrong lever. This can be a real risk in some aircraft types which have very close proximity between the levers, in particular when the pilot flys many different types of aircraft. Many of the arguments against this practice say that any increased performance is offset by the risks involved.

Despite this it is often done by pilots that feel, rightly or wrongly, that they are able to do this without undue risk.
I generally retract flaps after touchdown if I am landing on other than a dry, hard-surfaced runway, if I am operating on a short strip, if there is a strong crosswind, if there is debris/obstructions on the landing surface, etc. If I am flying something new to me I will usually avoid these situations in the first place, but I will also do a thorough pre-takeoff cockpit check to verify where things are without the need to look at them. The idea isn't to blindly make configuration changes so much as is to know right where to look to verify that you are reaching for the correct lever

We move flaps while still on the roll all the time. I am sure many do as well. In a full stop I won't argue that flaps stay down 100%, but it is not because of fear that a pilot will hit the wrong lever. Even if they pulled the lever for gears when they intended to retract the flaps, the gears will remain down as most planes if not all have touchdown relays/micro-switches that will lock out such things from happening.....like, lock out raise gear when you are on the ground or lock out reverse prop pitch while you are in the air....

One of the first things our pilot flying the aircraft does in our touch and go check list..after touching down and stabelizing, is ask for "Flaps 50"....(co-/pilot/engineer: in transit).."throttle(advance to take off)"....(flaps are 50)....."speed".....(speed checks....take off)....and we are back up again assuming everything goes right. I am usually asleep in the back , but thats about how it goes...over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

OD_79
05-31-2005, 07:00 AM
Personally, flying the Spitfire I put full flaps down for aproach and then as soon as I am on the ground I retract them to get the tail down as quickly as possible so I can brake as soon as possible and hit refly, I play a lot of multiplayer, but if possible I do a three point landing in which case the flaps go away straight off.
In reality I fly gliders and motor gliders so no flaps but we have airbrakes instead, these are always put to full as soon as we touch down, but this is completely different to flying with flaps.
Just in reference to the post about the C-130...you have reverse thrust as well so the flaps just add to the drag factor. I wish we had rverse thrust in this...it would be very interesting!

OD.