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View Full Version : Oleg: Will new FM include Inertia Effects?



Buzzsaw-
03-24-2005, 08:52 AM
Hello Oleg

Thankyou for your continued development of the IL-2/FB/PF series. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You have mentioned that some aspects of the new BoB FM will be included in the next patch for IL-2/FB/PF.

Can you explain these changes, and will this mean the inclusion of Inertia effects on the modelling of Flight model parameters such as the initiation of Rolling motion, reversing rolling motion, dive acceleration, zoom climb etc?

Once again, thankyou for your dedication. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Buzzsaw-
03-24-2005, 08:52 AM
Hello Oleg

Thankyou for your continued development of the IL-2/FB/PF series. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You have mentioned that some aspects of the new BoB FM will be included in the next patch for IL-2/FB/PF.

Can you explain these changes, and will this mean the inclusion of Inertia effects on the modelling of Flight model parameters such as the initiation of Rolling motion, reversing rolling motion, dive acceleration, zoom climb etc?

Once again, thankyou for your dedication. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
03-24-2005, 09:24 AM
He did say no questions, no speculation...they were still working on it. Just a FYI. You're not likely to get an official response till the patch is here.

OldMan____
03-24-2005, 12:50 PM
Well.. I would like to say Inertia IS modelled!! There is no easy way to make a rigid body physics simmulator withou doing so.

The rotation of a body is just handle by aplying torque (a force applied at apoint not the center) that is multiplied by an Inertia Tensor.. that is a simple 3x3 matrix. All inertia is that!! In All games!!

In fact this matrix takes the exact place that mass takes on newton movement laws equations.

If control surfaces change effieciency when the roll is already happenning.. that is ANOTHER thing.. that is NOT inertia.


Inertia for rotations is only a 3x3 matrix... not implementing it would be harder than implementing such a simple operation.

Wolf-Strike
03-24-2005, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Hello Oleg

Thankyou for your continued development of the IL-2/FB/PF series. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You have mentioned that some aspects of the new BoB FM will be included in the next patch for IL-2/FB/PF.

Can you explain these changes, and will this mean the inclusion of Inertia effects on the modelling of Flight model parameters such as the initiation of Rolling motion, reversing rolling motion, dive acceleration, zoom climb etc?

Once again, thankyou for your dedication. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im with ya Buzzhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifCome on Oleg....break the silence.

Aaron_GT
03-25-2005, 05:39 AM
I'm bemused at the suggestion that inertia isn't modelled...

quiet_man
03-25-2005, 05:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
I'm bemused at the suggestion that inertia isn't modelled... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

question is for which axis?
current modell does not contain inertia for roll

quiet_man

Ugly_Kid
03-25-2005, 06:55 AM
Yes it does, you'll notice it immediately when waggling the wings on multi-engine aircraft. The single-engine aircraft have a small inertia anyway but you'll notice it even in FW. Make a continuous fast roll to one direction and at a given time bring the controls completely to the other end, you'll notice that it takes time to stop the roll - inertia.

Ugly_Kid
03-25-2005, 06:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
I'm bemused at the suggestion that inertia isn't modelled... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too or the other missing gravity theory is another classic...

Aaron_GT
03-25-2005, 07:30 AM
"current modell does not contain inertia for roll"

It does. It varies from plane to plane. In some you can stop roll more or less instantly just by centring the stick. Others seem to require counter stick pressure to stop the roll.

carguy_
03-25-2005, 08:38 AM
Don`t hold your breath.It is hardly believeable that now with a single patch the FM for all airplanes (even AI WOOHOO!) changed as in more complicated by far compared to changes made by patches especially those from IL2 to FB and FB to PF.Ther will be more bugs because this is a beta after all.

I`m affraid the new FM can make more trouble than good.Fortunately one can simply return to previous version.

The good point is,flaws of new FM will be in PF instead of BoB so we can all research how good it is and help Oleg correct it for future pourposes.

TAGERT.
03-25-2005, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Hello Oleg

Thankyou for your continued development of the IL-2/FB/PF series. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You have mentioned that some aspects of the new BoB FM will be included in the next patch for IL-2/FB/PF.

Can you explain these changes, and will this mean the inclusion of Inertia effects on the modelling of Flight model parameters such as the initiation of Rolling motion, reversing rolling motion, dive acceleration, zoom climb etc?

Once again, thankyou for your dedication. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>will?

Blackdog5555
03-27-2005, 03:15 PM
Inertia = weight..or mass..
What you are talking is "moment of inertia"..

quiet_man
03-27-2005, 03:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ugly_Kid:
Yes it does, you'll notice it immediately when waggling the wings on multi-engine aircraft. The single-engine aircraft have a small inertia anyway but you'll notice it even in FW. Make a continuous fast roll to one direction and at a given time bring the controls completely to the other end, you'll notice that it takes time to stop the roll - inertia. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to admit, I never tested it
I just repeated what Oleg posted http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

quiet_man

VW-IceFire
03-29-2005, 10:28 PM
I think some of the inertial effects have been improved over time. What was once true, even from Oleg, is not anymore.

The new FM, according to what I've been reading from SimHQ...is QUITE different. Some of the experienced pilots over there are having some troubles with things like landing the airplane properly. I'm sure there will be an adjustment period...surely some whining from the crowds too.

Apparently we have LOTS of torque now.

ManicGibber
03-29-2005, 10:43 PM
I would really really like to TALK about when we get said patch, but alas I can't, so I won't.

Harh
03-30-2005, 01:12 AM
It is said that pre-BoB FM in patch will have inertia effect. Full inertia, not only inertia moment. There is a 4.0 track (ntrk file) exist in Internet showing what will be in the patch. Someone say that we'll have to learn to fly once again. But I cannot say anything more specific.

Petey78
03-30-2005, 05:35 AM
A bit OT here: I was lucky and managed to get a bit of stick-time in a two seat Extra 300, all I can say is that in RL that aircraft is totally undermodelled regarding inertia, you bring the stick to the centre and the aircraft stops dead! It took me a few goes to get it to roll smartly because instintinctively I kept bringing the stick back to the middle and expecting inertia to carry me through the rest of the roll - It simply didn't. You feel like you're flying by thought control, as I said, I was lucky to get a ride and a bit of stick time, an unforgettable experience! Back on topic, it feels like roll inertia is already included in the flight model and it feels fairly convincing to me!

ManicGibber
03-30-2005, 10:08 PM
I'm not a mathematician or an engineer so I have no evidence or proof, just thinking about inertia and it occurs to me that there is an incredible amount of pressure, force on an airframe from the movement through air, so rolling inertia would be almost none existent due to the air resistance on the wings surface area, especially at high speed. Yawing on the other hand is a totally different story as the airframe is streamlined in this axis.

Aaron_GT
03-31-2005, 10:35 AM
Intertia doesn't have anything to do with air resistance, though. The way rolling happens does, but that's a combination of interia and aerodynamical effects. There is definitely intertia in real life in starting a roll as you have to accelerate the body (angular acceleration) and the body will tend to resist.

lindyman
03-31-2005, 11:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Petey78:
A bit OT here: I was lucky and managed to get a bit of stick-time in a two seat Extra 300, all I can say is that in RL that aircraft is totally undermodelled regarding inertia, you bring the stick to the centre and the aircraft stops dead! It took me a few goes to get it to roll smartly because instintinctively I kept bringing the stick back to the middle and expecting inertia to carry me through the rest of the roll - It simply didn't. You feel like you're flying by thought control, as I said, I was lucky to get a ride and a bit of stick time, an unforgettable experience! Back on topic, it feels like roll inertia is already included in the flight model and it feels fairly convincing to me! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but the Extra is in a league of its own. It's not like other aircraft.

An airshow display pilot I know describes his own Extra as a video game. "Where you point the stick, the plane goes." Keep in mind that he doesn't talk like that at all of his other planes (Su-31 and Pitts-S2A.) I bet those too have far less rotational inertia than fighers, simply because they have almost no mass in the wings (most fighters have at least one of fuel and guns/ammo out there,) and they're made of metal and not fiberglass or cloth.
_
/Bjorn.

rosaenrico
03-31-2005, 01:30 PM
When flying a plane with heavy bombs attached to the wings and you apply a fast roll, the wing going upward will sustain a very very high load (the mass of the object accelerated very much) but in game the wing never is damaged.
On the other hand, IIRC bomb load affects the recovery from a dive.
So, my impression is that inertia is still not modelled in the roll axis but is present elsewhere.

enrico

WWMaxGunz
03-31-2005, 03:03 PM
Wing going down also has plus AOA with possible extra associated drag (it depends on AOA
before the roll, plus may take negative AOA into neutral) and wing going up has minus
AOA which may decrease drag, or increase it. In any case, AOA and drag will change for
both wings. This may be why it is hard for untrained fliers to do a straight roll and
not barrel it which maybe goes back to a comment Oleg made when people were doing their
"roll tests" on P-47's.

EDITED -- up, down, don't mix em up like I did....

TAGERT.
03-31-2005, 03:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rosaenrico:
When flying a plane with heavy bombs attached to the wings and you apply a fast roll, the wing going upward will sustain a very very high load (the mass of the object accelerated very much) but in game the wing never is damaged. On the other hand, IIRC bomb load affects the recovery from a dive. So, my impression is that inertia is still not modelled in the roll axis but is present elsewhere. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Here is my impression, inertia is modeled in the roll axis and present elsewhere, BUT, the DM does not use that in any kind of FRAME STRESS equation to determine when the wing should come off in the roll axis. That is to say to assume there is no inertia in the roll because the wings didnt come off is in error... It tells you more about the DM then the FM. If you want to see if the FM is doing it right due to the extra mass, time the rolls with and without.. Time the inital roll rate, not the max roll rate.. Because the extra mass will effect the inital not the max.. In a perfect world.. There are other factors like Max pointed out that would result is a not so perfect roll! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Make a track too.. Because visually it will be very hard to tell the difference between the two inital roll rates.