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View Full Version : Online dogfighting is like riding a bike with training wheels



XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:25 AM
Versus offline campaign mode that is. Dogfighting is a blast, don't get me wrong, but delving more into my campaign I can see that SO MUCH is being missed if you only play in online DF servers as many of you do.

For example:
-Weather - did you know FB has a few different ones? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-Turbulence - goes with weather
-Groups of bombers actually being escorted by a flock of fighters
-Intercept missions
-Escort missions
-serious furballs with multiple waves of arriving parties at different times
-actual purposes to your flight
-use of ALTITUDE? (there's air above 2000 meters, eh?)


One particularly cool experience was taking off on a rather foggy rainy morning, getting up above the clouds, fulfilling the mission, and coming back the cloud cover was so thick as I approached the airbase that I HAD to use my gauges to keep on course. I never have that happen online /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Overall, it's a shame but I think online dogfight servers are [rightfully] designed to ease framerates, and as a result, many of the things in a campaign aren't there.



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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:25 AM
Versus offline campaign mode that is. Dogfighting is a blast, don't get me wrong, but delving more into my campaign I can see that SO MUCH is being missed if you only play in online DF servers as many of you do.

For example:
-Weather - did you know FB has a few different ones? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-Turbulence - goes with weather
-Groups of bombers actually being escorted by a flock of fighters
-Intercept missions
-Escort missions
-serious furballs with multiple waves of arriving parties at different times
-actual purposes to your flight
-use of ALTITUDE? (there's air above 2000 meters, eh?)


One particularly cool experience was taking off on a rather foggy rainy morning, getting up above the clouds, fulfilling the mission, and coming back the cloud cover was so thick as I approached the airbase that I HAD to use my gauges to keep on course. I never have that happen online /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Overall, it's a shame but I think online dogfight servers are [rightfully] designed to ease framerates, and as a result, many of the things in a campaign aren't there.



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</CENTER>
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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:27 AM
Isn't this the nature of the beast though? Most people playing online simply want a quick brawl in the air (or perhaps an extended brawl that lasts a few hours). They don't want to take the time to fly 20 mins to an objective, perform the objective, and return home.

I think you've identified the crucial difference between online and offline play. Offline is a much more immersive experience that takes some more time, while online is a great way to jump right into the action and have some immediate fun.

Depends on what you're looking for.

Ronnie

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:27 AM
You forgot to mention the warp that comes with vow vef coop that makes the game unplayable, fighters and ai warping 1000 meters in all directions.


As of now non scripted dogfightservers with 20 players seem alot smoother

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:28 AM
Did you know it's possible to enjoy online AND offline play? Yes, it's true, you don't have to make a choice /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Message Edited on 06/17/0302:45AM by Demolisher_

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:28 AM
Hey Dexmeister!

I hear you all the way! I wish there were more campaigns online but that does not mean that there is none! But I always dream of having human pilots flying those bombers and fighters, it really makes the difference.

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:31 AM
Demolisher_ wrote:
- Did you know it's possible to enjoy online AND
- offline play? Yes, it's true, you don't have to mak
- a choice /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

You two-timing hoe! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:43 AM
Thats all true.

Online I prefere the coops,and scripted over offline. I prefere human opponants or team players with me in a coop against ai. I enjoy the comradaree the most wich its hard to experience with AI m8's.

The secret to smooth game online is a large machine IE (1400mhz plus with 1 gig of ram or even bigger than that) serving with a cable connection. And all players set up the same. Get in a squad that supports those ideals and your pleasure will increase 10 fold. You can have low pings all involved but if the server's machine is below those standards you will suffer for it.




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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:44 AM
I enjoy offline campaigns. I always start over if I die. One of these days, i'll get all the way through alive. I enjoy getting medals, and rank.

No warp,and no pimple faced kid telling me how bad he is../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:49 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- I enjoy offline campaigns. I always start over if I
- die. One of these days, i'll get all the way through
- alive. I enjoy getting medals, and rank.
-
- No warp,and no pimple faced kid telling me how bad
- he is../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif -
-
- Da Buzz
-

Same here .. though in Experten I allow myself to escape if captured only restart if I actually die.

Online can be a blast as well but I always preferred co-ops and there seem a lot less of those of late http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:51 AM
scripted servers rock! the AI won't stall and crash, humans do.

was on a scripted server and had 7 tb-3s in a tight formation with escorts with the whole other team after us. 10 vs 10 was great. you don't get that offline.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:55 AM
Dexmeister wrote:
-
- Demolisher_ wrote:
-- Did you know it's possible to enjoy online AND
-- offline play? Yes, it's true, you don't have to mak
-- a choice /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- You two-timing hoe!
-


Are you trying to make me feel bad about myself? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:57 AM
It's the other way around really.

The best and most challenging pilots are online.

On a dogfight server in one night they can achieve the same level of combat experience as the average combat pilot of WW2.

They're really alive too.

That adds an element of realism missing offline.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 03:01 AM
I've only played FB online in one-on-one LAN games with a friend, but I much prefer offline play. The fact you have to achieve an objective puts far more pressure on you than when you just have to shoot the other guy down. And if you play some of the excellent missions available at il2hangar, you really get a challenge...those missions are tough!

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 05:16 AM
offline is MUCH easier than flying against online aces.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 05:34 AM
RedDeth wrote:
- offline is MUCH easier than flying against online
- aces.


I don't know about that. In my LA7 campaign I end up in some hairy situations and the opposition seems much more coordinated than most groups you'll find online. Online you may find good pilots, I agree, but the scenario doesn't unfold into much more than a 1v1 or 1v2 dogfight.

Playing Co-ops offline with "Ace" AI is a good challenge too. I've seen the AI pull maneuvers (in MIGS) that leave me scratching my head because they're so effective.




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</CENTER>
</p>

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 07:28 AM
Interesting. Mostly you hear the opposite: online is the only way to go, offline is child's play, etc etc. This is the first time I've heard a counter-view from someone who has done both.

As one who doesn't play online, has never tried it and has absolutely zero interest in doing so, I have no way of knowing who is right, but it's very interesting to see that different views do exist.

(At this point someone always says, "How do you know you don't want to do it if you haven't tried it?" Exactly the same line you can hear in any bar in the Village from men wearing fluffy socks and Birkenstocks....)

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 07:32 AM
JamesGang babbled:

- The best and most challenging pilots are online

How would you know that? How would ANYONE know that? Since 95% of the FB users are offline, and as far as I know no one has tested even a statistically representative sample for their skills, your statement is based on nothing but your own prejudices.

- On a dogfight server in one night they can achieve
- the same level of combat experience as the average
- combat pilot of WW2.

If you sincerely believe that, you're an idiot.

michapma
06-17-2003, 05:49 PM
It's a good observation, Dex. I get much more immersion in offline campaign play. The AI are much more predictable then humans, but as you've point out they fly much more historically than in most online play.

The exception to the 1v2 and 1v1 fights are the online wars. I've been in or witnessed a few furballs in missions that most definitely have a point.

I've also flown 5 consecutive missions in the Forgotten Wars campaign without ever directly engaging an enemy aircraft, and had a blast. In my most recent mission (sadly it's been a little while due to RL) I flew nearly a full tank of fuel out of an I-16, so there are exceptions to what you're saying. I assume you were thinking of most dogfight servers and coops.


Blind_Joe_Death wrote:
- JamesGang babbled:
-
-- The best and most challenging pilots are online
-
- How would you know that? How would ANYONE know
- that? Since 95% of the FB users are offline, and as
- far as I know no one has tested even a statistically
- representative sample for their skills, your
- statement is based on nothing but your own
- prejudices.


I think he meant the most challenging pilots to fly against are online, that human pilots are more challenging than AI.


-- On a dogfight server in one night they can achieve
-- the same level of combat experience as the average
-- combat pilot of WW2.
-
- If you sincerely believe that, you're an idiot.


I think he meant they can rack up more combat hours.


Cheers,
Mike

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<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

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Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 08:18 PM
Demolisher_ wrote:
- Did you know it's possible to enjoy online AND
- offline play? Yes, it's true, you don't have to make
- a choice

Wow, someone else who has this point of view. S!



Message Edited on 06/17/0312:19PM by UCLANUPE

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 08:18 PM
Demolisher_ wrote:
- Did you know it's possible to enjoy online AND
- offline play? Yes, it's true, you don't have to make
- a choice

Wow, someone else who has this point of view. S!

opps again sorry!




Message Edited on 06/17/0312:20PM by UCLANUPE

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 08:19 PM
Demolisher_ wrote:
- Did you know it's possible to enjoy online AND
- offline play? Yes, it's true, you don't have to make
- a choice

Wow, someone else who has this point of view. S!
opps!



Message Edited on 06/17/0312:20PM by UCLANUPE

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 08:52 PM
one of the TX servers has rain and stuff on it...

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 09:17 PM
Dexmeister wrote:
- RedDeth wrote:
-- offline is MUCH easier than flying against online
-- aces.
-
-
- I don't know about that. In my LA7 campaign I end up
- in some hairy situations and the opposition seems
- much more coordinated than most groups you'll find
- online. Online you may find good pilots, I agree,
- but the scenario doesn't unfold into much more than
- a 1v1 or 1v2 dogfight.
-
- Playing Co-ops offline with "Ace" AI is a good
- challenge too. I've seen the AI pull maneuvers (in
- MIGS) that leave me scratching my head because
- they're so effective.

I find online more difficult, but it's not because of AI skill, or mission difficulty, or any of that.
It's because it gets personal.
AI doesn't TK, it doesn't scream CHEATER, it doesn't ask how to see scores, or any of that. But it also doesn't repeatedly show me how far I have yet to go to achieve RBJ status either. AI doesn't get my dander up to the point where I just abandon the room and fume all night wondering how the hell he was able to get the advantage on me every time. And AI definitely doesn't get me to the point where I practice in QMB till I think I've got a handle on it, look for a rematch, only to have it happen all over again /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
In offline missions, nobody is watching me humiliate myself.
It gets PERSONAL!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
rad the neurotic

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 09:38 PM
Intresting point Dex.

I think offline can be alot more immersive, with all the ranking and medals and such.

But online is evolving into something better. Scripted servers are HOT! I've been playing some cool scripted missions in THE DUDE's server (The entity formerly known as g00se08) and it's been really fun. You had to take off and look for targets and both sides are fighting real hard to protect their side and at the same time attacking the other. No more senseless dogfighting.

But still you can always hit refly after you're dead, something coops won't allow you to do, but's cool and fun.

Online campains also seem very nice to play, even though I never actually took part in one.

FB is a game of many faces and features. You can just pick one and see what comes out of it. No one should be judged weather or not he/she prefers offline or online or full real or arcade style.

We have the best of both worlds here. *



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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:05 PM
some interesting points all round.



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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:22 AM
FB is very poor for online play vs AH or FA3.6 - anyone that has played a mmog flight sim struggles to enjoy ai or peer to peer battles.

Flying against 400 people in one room is pretty awesome - flying against 8 all at 2000 feet for 12 mins is pretty boring.

FB - Eye Candy and offline play
AH - Massive Immersion, low end graphics, good flight and gunnery models
FA - for people new to online sims - easier flight model, good graphics

Pay your money and take your choice.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:50 PM
While fighting online you are against real poilot flying real FM crafts. Offline you are against stupid computer driven UFOs.It depend on what you prefer though...

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 06:11 PM
Amen to BuzzU's comments. I've given up on online playing for a couple of reasons. 1) cheaters 2) cheaters 3) cheaters, and 4)I prefer to fly coop, planning the mission beforehand with the LAN group I fly with here on base and RogerWilco (sorry about not having the little copyright sign) radio chatter. There. That's my two cents!

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michapma
06-19-2003, 01:42 PM
Aardvark892,

Right, that's why there are things like squadrons. Don't go into dogfighter servers except to improve your skills. There aren't as many cheaters in IL-2/FB as you might think. Especially if you are going by the "Cheating detected!" message.

Cheers,
Mike

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<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

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Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 01:56 PM
Diferent thinks, diferent pleasures. I love DF and hate campaigns or off line missions.

Actualy, i like people! Diferent peoples from diferent places and diferent cultures. Thats what make look so mutch to my screen, and of course, this great planes.

The game cant do it to me, it dont have the magic.

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michapma
06-19-2003, 02:02 PM
It's true I seldom get an adrenaline rush offline. Nor have I ever enjoyed chatting or comms with AI.

mutch = much /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

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<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="left" valign="top">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>