PDA

View Full Version : Super AI rear gunners



XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 02:10 PM
This is a repetion of a post I made over at SimHQ - just thought I'd post it here because it's the right place to put it

As many of you will now - the following is NOT a freak shot accident, but a common occurence. This gunner is average:

http://vania.dk/images/01_a_super_gunner.jpghttp://vania.dk/images/02_a_super_gunner.jpghttp://vania.dk/images/03_a_super_gunner.jpghttp://vania.dk/images/04_a_super_gunner.jpghttp://vania.dk/images/05_a_super_gunner.jpghttp://vania.dk/images/06_a_super_gunner.jpghttp://vania.dk/images/07_a_super_gunner.jpghttp://vania.dk/images/08_a_super_gunner.jpg

In less than a second - this guy aquires me through periscope, aims (with due deflection, I am doing 410 Kph in a 90 deg. angle - and he is moving away) and disables my cannon... (btw - the spot he hits IS indeed where the cannon ammo feed is located on the 109 - they've really got the interiour of the 109 modelled http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

I was trying to come down on top of the Pe2 - but miscalculated.

C!

<A HREF="http://giap.webhop.info" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/var/storage/original/image/69giap_badge_roshko.jpg
</A>

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 02:10 PM
This is a repetion of a post I made over at SimHQ - just thought I'd post it here because it's the right place to put it

As many of you will now - the following is NOT a freak shot accident, but a common occurence. This gunner is average:

http://vania.dk/images/01_a_super_gunner.jpghttp://vania.dk/images/02_a_super_gunner.jpghttp://vania.dk/images/03_a_super_gunner.jpghttp://vania.dk/images/04_a_super_gunner.jpghttp://vania.dk/images/05_a_super_gunner.jpghttp://vania.dk/images/06_a_super_gunner.jpghttp://vania.dk/images/07_a_super_gunner.jpghttp://vania.dk/images/08_a_super_gunner.jpg

In less than a second - this guy aquires me through periscope, aims (with due deflection, I am doing 410 Kph in a 90 deg. angle - and he is moving away) and disables my cannon... (btw - the spot he hits IS indeed where the cannon ammo feed is located on the 109 - they've really got the interiour of the 109 modelled http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

I was trying to come down on top of the Pe2 - but miscalculated.

C!

<A HREF="http://giap.webhop.info" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/var/storage/original/image/69giap_badge_roshko.jpg
</A>

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 02:13 PM
Uhoh - just realised that this is probably from 1.0 and not 1.11

Anyhow - I don't think they did anything to the AI gunners...

C!

<A HREF="http://giap.webhop.info" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/var/storage/original/image/69giap_badge_roshko.jpg
</A>

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 02:55 PM
Totally agree...even set to novice they repeatedly achieve a totally unrealistic percentage of kills. We're flying the Hurricane Mk1...you should try using that to attack anything with a rear gunner in it, eight mgs against one...one wins everytime!

Please can this problem get remedied in the next patch.

Thanks...

S/Ldr. Ginger,
C.O. - No.601 Fighter Squadron, Auxiliary Air Force.

http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/images/small/airtoair14.jpg


The Tangmere Pilots - http://www.tangmere-pilots-raf.co.uk/

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 05:15 PM
I agree that the AI gunners were snipers in 1.0, but in 1.11 I don't find them to be overly accurate (even on ace level). There was in fact a big reduction in AI gunner accuracy with the patch IMHO. It seems that the faster you make your attack run the less accurate they are, unfortunately this hurts a slower plane like the Hurricane.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.



Message Edited on 09/28/0304:23PM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 06:01 PM
In 1.11 I've not yet noticed them taking shots while they're moving, at least, not as much as they did. Especially not while in a loop as shown in the shots.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_parasite.jpg

Need help with NewView? Read this thread. (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj)

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 06:08 PM
Glad to hear that it may be fixed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'll be doing some intercept training with squad soon - so I hope I'll come to the same conclusion. Silly of me to post it when it is 1.0 and not 1.11 - I apologize.

BTW. it's not a loop - it's a vertical dive http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

C!

<A HREF="http://giap.webhop.info" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/var/storage/original/image/69giap_badge_roshko.jpg
</A>

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 06:14 PM
Ah - sorry :>

For what it's worth I believe Oleg is on record as saying he feels that gunners in 1.11 are currently far less accurate shots than they were in real life. Certainly they're far, far less accurate than human gunners were online when I was flying, even the 1.0 ones didn't have anything on a guy with a mouse.



http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_parasite.jpg

Need help with NewView? Read this thread. (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj)

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 06:45 PM
i still find it that theyre too accurate, maybe an opttion in the realisim settings as it really stops teh fun a bit being shot by a tail gunner, to me it seems far easier to shoot down a fighter than a bomber so this really defeatsa the purpose of fighters doesnt it?

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 06:51 PM
Stop whining. Fighter pilots should be afraid when attacking a bomber.
The game is called IL-2, not La-7 - bombers should have a chance to survive. The AI-gunners are allways reduced and in few patches they will hit nothing.
Learn a better tactic, for example attack in a headon like the german fighters did against the B-17 formations.

The fighter pilots should think about the bombersituation before whining about AI gunners.
Fly a bomber and you will see that the gunner hit next to nothing!

http://www.aviationartprints.com/images/xdhm2424_small.jpg


"HyperLobby 4 Ever"

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 07:29 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

C!

<A HREF="http://giap.webhop.info" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/var/storage/original/image/69giap_badge_roshko.jpg
</A>

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 07:35 PM
''Fighter pilots should be afraid when attacking a bomber.''


the thing is, Galand himself said that german bomber turrets were highly innefective and mostly ''symbolic''

I agree to say that since 1.11 its less raging, but maybe still a wee bit too much accurate. the bullet that hits you always seems to hit the vital place of your plane, which are the forehead of your pilot or right in your engine /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

but yet again, if you fly a 109, make a passage at 300 kmh in the middle of a pe-8 formation, dont come whine if they tear you appart! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ps: I think the overall AI of the game, friendly, ennemy, turrets, is a bigger issue than FM's (109 climb rate, rool rate of the Jug...)

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 07:44 PM
Definitely agree there GunterAeroburst.

I saw a very silly physics discussion here once about whether the forward velocity of a plane should be added to a bullet shot from a tail turret. Now, I'm not saying Oleg has definitely made that mistake, but it sure seems like sometimes a small number of 7.92mm shots from a rear turret are a lot more effective than they are under other circumstances. Makes me wonder if the velocity is a factor of the damage model and how that might be counted in game.

A lot of the AI code is quite basic - I wish, say, that I could set two vehicle columns to cross the same bridge and not have the game completely fall over trying to make that happen :>



http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_parasite.jpg

Need help with NewView? Read this thread. (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj)

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 10:09 PM
I am very confident that bullet velocity is modelled, I am also very confident that bomber speed is subtracted from a bullet going rearwards and in turn the receiving fighters speed is added. I have no proof - I am just very confident /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

All AI shoot for the cockpit/engine area btw..

C!

<A HREF="http://giap.webhop.info" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/var/storage/original/image/69giap_badge_roshko.jpg
</A>

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 10:32 PM
Ive noticed the AI gunners do deflection shooting, how can these gunners deflect shoot and hit enemy planes that are going 2x their plane speed,from all the WWII docmentries, the gunners would always spray and pray, not trying to aim at a much faster plane, also Ive noticed that the MG17's on the German bombers are much more powerful than the MG17's on the German fighters, thier tracers are yellow and are much more bigger than the tracers on the MG17, like the 109 F models, Ive tested them, and no they made my plane smoke not by shooting at the engine directly but from diffrent angles, and did MG's on bombers have smoke tracers? Why is it when friendly AI are about to attack a bomber, and when the bomber gunners start shooting they break off the attack, but when your the bomber and you start shooting at the enemy figters they dont break away, even if you are shooting at them directly, and mind you both friendly AI fighters, and enemy AI were both at same skill level.

http://pilotosdelaluftwaffe.tripod.com/avi/erichhartmannsabre.jpg
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Out of all of my accomplishments, Ive never lost a wing man"- Erich Hartmann
He fought for hes country, not for hes leaders.

Message Edited on 09/28/0302:32PM by Wetwilly87

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 10:37 PM
''All AI shoot for the cockpit/engine area btw..''

of course, but what we're saying is they too often manage to do so

Very rarely I get hits elsewhere on my plane, and I try most of the time NOT to expose vital parts of my plane to rear gunners

Usually I try to reach higher altitude and dive on the bombers, especially when I have a lot of firepower like 190, 109 with Mk108, Yak-9T...you all know the deal http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

OR, another solution that I think works quite well against the 111, face to face with the bomber (the pilot is quite easy to kill)

STILL, I think the bombers offer a bigger threat than the fighters that escort em...so I think theres is a lil prob there...

Nonetheless, GREAT game, GREAT work, thumbs up to the team, cant wait to fly new planes in the next add-on

Cheers

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 10:43 PM
- - 'All AI shoot for the cockpit/engine area btw..''

- of course, but what we're saying is they too often manage to do so

LOL - I know - I started the thread http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Well - I'll have to do some 1.11 bomber-intercept b4 I feel I can contribute anything to this thread again. Diving on top of them like I do on the pictures should definately be doable without a snipershot in the ammofeed from the belly gunner http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

C!

<A HREF="http://giap.webhop.info" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/var/storage/original/image/69giap_badge_roshko.jpg
</A>

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 10:53 PM
yeah, good work on the pics ROSHKO http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

it really shows well what happens too often, especially since I think that the Pe2 and Pe3 are prolly the most annoying planes of the game, they can take hits forever b4 crashing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 11:42 PM
clint-ruin wrote:

- For what it's worth I believe Oleg is on record as
- saying he feels that gunners in 1.11 are currently
- far less accurate shots than they were in real life.

He could always assign the RL capabilities to the "veteran" and "ace" gunners.. I don't feel right knowing that the gunners now are aim-challenged. Just finished a mission where I could pass through a formation of 4 SB-2, killing two, with my puny brewster (I was the only attacker).

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 07:33 AM
Well historically bomber gunners were pretty lousy. Except for tail gunners when enemy fighters came straight at them. They didn't have things like pushing a button that automatically lined them up with the sights.
The aircraft jerked, and jostled in rough air. The machineguns themselves shook pretty badly.
Fighter cover, and large numbers were necessities. Sure a german fighter diving through a bomber formation with nearly 80 gunners firing at him was difficult. However the fact that he flew by 80 gunners on several occasions shows their innacuraccy.

B-17's especially flew in large numbers, and if their fighter support didn't find them they were doomed to take heavy losses. More or less hoping the interceptors ran out of ammo before they got around to their aircraft.
They did get kills though, but needless to say it's very hard. Even harder than shooting from the ground, and look at the statistics for Pearl Harbor. The Japanese took very light losses with all kinds of flak, and AAA being fired at them. Not to mention every sailor with a bolt action rifle.

Of course given the small numbers bombers in the game fly in I find it fine that their gunners shoot so well. If they didn't they would be sitting ducks. Although a good human gunner online will ruin your day. I shot down 4 109's, and a 190 online in a TB-3 before I went down.


Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 08:31 AM
In my opinion the gunner fire needs to be increased, to be more like it was during the real WW2.

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 09:23 AM
Wetwilly87 wrote:
- Ive noticed the AI gunners do deflection shooting,
- how can these gunners deflect shoot and hit enemy
- planes that are going 2x their plane speed, ...

Most players don't attack bombers with twice the speed, they stay for minutes behind the bomber with the same speed while shooting.
If they would fly with twice the speed and would do fast passes they wouldn't be shot down.

Sure sometimes the AI is shooting in unrealistic situations, but they don't shoot to accurate. The AI pilots do the same -> because they are both AI and not real humans.


http://www.aviationartprints.com/images/xdhm2424_small.jpg


"HyperLobby 4 Ever"

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 09:37 AM
It's difficult to go twice the speed of a Pe2 that is in a hurry http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Angles, and blind spots is what counts. I found with my 109 vs Pe2 1941 that I could actually fly alongside them less than 100 meters - they couldn't touch me. Then roll over and put bullets in them. But it was extremely difficult - one little error and booom - no engine/pilot/guns. Of course with the later pe's that was impossible because they have extra gunners and no real blind angles at all....

C!

<A HREF="http://giap.webhop.info" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/var/storage/original/image/69giap_badge_roshko.jpg
</A>

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 03:48 PM
"In less than a second - this guy aquires me through periscope, aims (with due deflection, I am doing 410 Kph in a 90 deg. angle - and he is moving away) and disables my cannon..."

Good, well presented post Roshko, and I agree that the situation WRT the bomber gunners is absolutely ridiculous. It's as if the AI fighter pilots would be able to make perfect deflection shots when you were turning, which they (thankfully) cannot. FB is a great game, and the bomber gunners are probably the last remaining really serious issue for me. But right now they are making the campaigns near unplayable.

"So learn to attack them properly then?" Well I can shoot them down, but that requires me to make a perfect attack even against lone Average bombers! Real life pilots accounts usually resemble what I experience in FB, but when it comes to medium bombers it's simply does not rhyme with historical accounts.

"It seems that the faster you make your attack run the less accurate they are"

I agree. They almost feel trigger-based in this aspect- stay above 400 pkh or so and you will rarely get hit.

"Stop whining. Fighter pilots should be afraid when attacking a bomber.

[...]

Learn a better tactic, for example attack in a headon like the german fighters did against the B-17 formations."

I'm sorry, but those statements are just plain silly. First, world war two fighter pilots are on record as being afraid when they attacked large formations of heavy bombers, not small formations of medium bombers. Second, the headon attack was an effective method but took a very skilled pilot. Steinhoff said in an interview that "only a handful of pilots could do it" or words to that effect.

Clearly the bomber gunners in FB do not fit with real life accounts, except if you take marginal phenomena (like the headon attacks) and extrapolate them while ignoring the more typical situations.

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 11:13 PM
Stefan-R wrote:
- Stop whining. Fighter pilots should be afraid when
- attacking a bomber.
- The game is called IL-2, not La-7 - bombers should
- have a chance to survive. The AI-gunners are allways
- reduced and in few patches they will hit nothing.
- Learn a better tactic, for example attack in a
- headon like the german fighters did against the B-17
- formations.
-
- The fighter pilots should think about the
- bombersituation before whining about AI gunners.
- Fly a bomber and you will see that the gunner hit
- next to nothing!
-
<img
- src="http://www.aviationartprints.com/images/xdhm2
- 424_small.jpg">
-
-
- "HyperLobby 4 Ever"

Yeah right, you do know B-17's have forward gunners, what you going to say than?

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 01:54 AM
problem with head on attacks I've found is that after passing you still end up being raped by the tail gunner as he shoots you as you fly off

its very hard to down a H111 in a hurricane mk 1 yet this was done plenty in the BOB, hurricanes were used to attack bombers while the spits took on the fighters iirc.

I think it would make the game more fun to have the gunners as more of a graphical effect and purposely miss you than have their sniper accuracy now, maybe an option in the realisim settings for this (by this i mean that stupid flying will still end up with them hitting you, ie flying in formation with them, extreme close ups etc but regular flying and jinking will throw off their aim)

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:12 PM
Spare a thought for those u fly the bombers- i bet they are glad that their AI guners are good shots! Especially when flying online- i dont often see good escorts from human players- too busy trying to notch up victories rather than protect the bombers. Any squads adopted decent escort tactics? I'd be interested to learn a thing or two.

I hasten to add that I usually fly fighters and i'm often the first person guilty of trying to notch up victories rather than protect my bombers and am the first to complain if an AI gunner snipes me:-)

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:50 PM
AI accuracy is still too good, it's stupid.

Your flight path can be 90deg to a bomber and you can be going 600kmh or more and the gunners will still snipe out your engine and this is online.

A lot of these lame engine kill happen as you are leaving the scene not on the approuch where you'd think the gunners have a better chance to hit.

Honestly, AI gunners should be canned online and Oleg figure a way to work multiple manned players into bombers on dogfight servers. Not just in coops.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 01:04 AM
I've found that AI gunner effectiveness is very variable, and probably tied to the skill level. However, if you think fighting the AI gunners is hard, try going online vs a human piloted bomber with time enough to spare from trimming, operating the bombsight etc to man his own turrets. Especially human tailgunners in Il2FB are extremely deadly. If we can do it, why shouldn't the AI?

Flew a bombing raid on the excellent TX-OC3 server in an IL2, got jumped by two 109s on the way back, and I thought I was gonna get shot down. Decided to have a little fun while I was still alive, set the plane in a slight turn, and jumped into the tailgunner position. Both of them got shot down due to hopeless tactics.

Easiest way to avoid getting shot down by bomber gunners: don't stay in their sights for long, avoid their lines of fire if you can. Attacking a bomber's 6 o clock is dangerous, and it's not the best position to cause damage, as the tail sections of most planes can take quite a beating. If you have to attack from the rear, at least do a hi-lo slash. Better to do a little damage per attack and live, than trying for a kill in a single pass.



Message Edited on 10/01/0302:06AM by dapendragon

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 10:55 AM
I think the main cause of the problem has less to do with accuracy of the bomber gunners themselves, than it does with the routines the AI gunners use for situational awareness, target acquisition, and target tracking.

Their accuracy in engaging targets that are stationary relative to their own aircraft's movement can be quite abysmal. The random dispersion of their bullets and out-and-out wrong direction they chose to fire in is sometimes downright ludicrous -- well below what a human player would be capable of most times. (The ability of human gunners in IL2:FB to manipulate a 40 pound machine gun as easily as it is to move the mouse is an entirely different discussion, however.)

In this respect I can understand what Oleg is saying about the game's AI bomber gunners being less accurate than their real-life, 1940's counterparts. But sheer accuracy -- the ability of the gunner to place his bullets where he wants -- is only part of the story.

A gunner must first decide when and where to aim and, subsequently, shoot -- and in this area the AI gunners are most certainly gods compared to their real men who manned these guns during the war.

The AI has no blindspots. It is aware of enemy planes no matter where they are around their ship (within a certain distance, of course). Doesn't matter if the AI's line of sight should be completely blocked by its own plane's fuselage, it has the uncanny ability to immediately start tracking and fire the split second you enter its cone of fire -- even before that, so as to take deflection into account -- and more alarmingly, there seems to be no limit to this: They can accurately gauge deflection and timing in the blink of an eye at insane speeds and "angles off"(as evidenced by the original poster's diagram). Feats that were all but impossible in real life.

Another area where they unrealistically accel is in their ability to track a target smoothly, while simultaneously remaining perfectly adjusted for the necessary deflection at any range within the limits of their weapons. For an example of this, one only has to watch from the gunner view with the gunner auto-pilot activated.

It's my opinion that these few and underappreciated factors (SA, target acquisition, and tracking) combine to make the AI gunner behavior in the game wholy unrealistic and overly leathal. And while this effect is somewhat offset by the developement team's efforts to artificially handicap the gunners -- in the areas of pure accuracy (measures only taken due to pressure from the community, perhaps) -- it does so in a way that not only compromises realism, but also fun; thereby serving only to exacerbate the original problem.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 12:03 PM
As a suggestion anyone who thinks the rear gunner AI is fine really needs to setup a QMB mission, flying 1 Hurricane Mk Ia against 1 He-111 (either model).
It's really frustrating to shootdown and invariably your radiator or pilot will get hit.
Against a flight of He 111's where they group together closely and are able to give covering crossfire to eachother then they might just have a chance of shooting down an aircraft as in real life.But a single .30 calibre mahine gun on it's own shouldn't be so deadly as it is ingame.
Yes, there were a few instances were single bombers or dual seat fighter-bombers scored kills with the rear gunner, but these were rare instances not the norm.

-----
In memory of 'The Few'
<img src=http://www.lima1.co.uk/Sharkey/spitfire.jpg>
The Tangmere Pilots - http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk/
Know your enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles, you will never be defeated.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 02:40 PM
I've never been up in a WWII-era bomber, so this is speculative, but wouldn't bombers bounce around in the air quite a bit? Also, the firing of a gun causes quite a bounce, and inaccuracy increases with the length of uninterupted firing. In a 3-D world, it seems a pretty hard thing to hit something slicing across your field of vision at several hundred meters, while bouncing along and firing a weapon which jumps with every burst. The actual correct target-solution is a very thing.

I wonder if the aircraft don't remain too stable in flight, especially when in a large formation ... those big propellers are pushing-around a lot of air.

Also, for those with real experience, how does the slip stream in the game compare with what would be expected in real life?

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 04:03 PM
Excellent posts by both AnalFissure and perioikos. A big BUMP since this issue deserves attention.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 04:18 PM
Well I know a WW2 gunner and when he had a 5% hit ratio when firing under a controlled condition at a drogue target, the instructor congratulated him on his excellent shooting. Excellent shooting with a 5% hit ratio, hmmmm? He was in a turret, not using a hand-held weapon either, of a Bolingbrooke(Blenheim).


http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/west-battleline.jpg



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 04:25 PM
Agreed, good post analfissure.


What I'd like to see:

i) gun recoil on gunner stations, and emulated effects of recoil for ai firing. Simple to implement, doesn't need to do anything more than offset the gun by 1-3 degrees after each round of sustained firing.

ii) suppressive fire - being shot at by 12 .303s would probably make a lot of people put their head down and fire blindly, if at all. Might be a bit more work to do.

iii) reworked shooting AI algorithm for gunner stations, along the lines of the circular patterns used for ground AI fire. I don't know if this is a genuinely seperate AI routine or if it's just the effect of having a closure speed on ground objects that's typically 400-500 to 0, but it'd be nice to make it happen somehow.

I think that working out a way to make the AI lose track of an attacking plane is going to be a lot of work to implement - there's no provision for it in any of the aircraft AI I know of, and it would require mapping out fields of view for each gunner station on each plane. This would be complicated by some planes which use a single gunner for multiple stations like the Pe2 and He-111.

As always, careful what you ask for with 1c - if you get what you ask for you might wish you hadn't asked at all [trim fix, elevator authority for fw190, etc, etc...].


http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_parasite.jpg

Need help with NewView? Read this thread. (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj)

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 11:41 PM
Good post AnalFissure - terrible name LOL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Milo - that guy with 5% hitrate - any info on what was considered a hit ? Did he have to hit certain areas of the target or was a bullet on target enough ? The thing with the 1.0 gunners was their uncanny magic bullet. In the pictures I posted he may only have hit me with 1 or 2 bullets out of say 20 (merely speculating) - but he did hit GOOD.

Well - I was with my squad, to bunged out to fly properly myself. But one of the guys would make repeated passes from 5 oc high on a group of 4 Ju88 and survive !

I still have to get to the stick myself b4 I really want to form an opinion again - but seeing him doing that had me amazed - I was sure he was going to get shot, but he wasn't. Maybe the difference between 1.0 and 1.11 ?

What is my main interest is that you can do what the fighters back then did. That's the main thing...

C!

<A HREF="http://giap.webhop.info" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/var/storage/original/image/69giap_badge_roshko.jpg
</A>

Message Edited on 10/01/0310:44PM by ROSHKO_69.GIAP