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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:03 PM
Hi guys, after reading a lot about Italians and Italian technology during years '20 and '40, I want to tell you a story. It's the story of the Schneider Cup during the years preceding WW2. This cup was meant to set the World's speed record for airplanes.
In 1934, october 23, Francesco Agello piloted his Macchi MC-72, a seaplane, at the average speed of 709.202 km/h on the Garda Lake (North of Italy).
This machine, conceived by Eng. Mario Castoldi of Macchi-Castoldi, was quite amazing.
It had 2 independent coaxial FIAT AS-6 engines (12V-60?), liquid cooled, each driving a 2-blade propeller; the 2 propellers were counter-turning.
The 2 engines had an overall power of about 3000 HP in speed race configuration, and 2500 HP for endurance competitions. They were feed with a centrifugal turbocharger and 8 carburettors, using a mix (conceived by Rod Banks) that was composed by 55% gasoline, 22% benzole, 23% alcohol and 0,15% tetraethyl lead. Their overall lenght was about 4 meters.
To find the right valve configuration of the AS-6 engines, in order to avoid the initial feeding and back-fire problems, twelve different valve combinations were tested and 1000 valves of 12 different kinds of steel were utilized.
Radiators were flat and made of copper, and were placed on the boots, wings and fuselage to minimize drag.
The structure and the cover of front fuselage, boots and wings was metal, while rear fuselage was wood.

I've seen this "monster" in a small museum of the Italian Military Air Force near Rome, and I have to say that after 69 years (!!!) this bright red bird seems ready to fly again and show you what is capable of !!!
And you know what?
This record is still unbeaten!
The Macchi MC-72 is still the fastest propeller seaplane of the world!

In august 7, 1961, the Sovietic JET Seaplane Beriev M.10 of Nikolai Andrjewski reached 912 km/h.

Thus, 69 years later, the Italian record with a propeller-driven seaplane is still on!

Take a look at the pictures of this bird:

http://www.ottocubano.com/images/Macchi%20MC%2072.jpg

http://aeroweb.lucia.it/gifs/history/mc724.jpg




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Message Edited on 09/18/0305:01PM by Cippacometa

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:03 PM
Hi guys, after reading a lot about Italians and Italian technology during years '20 and '40, I want to tell you a story. It's the story of the Schneider Cup during the years preceding WW2. This cup was meant to set the World's speed record for airplanes.
In 1934, october 23, Francesco Agello piloted his Macchi MC-72, a seaplane, at the average speed of 709.202 km/h on the Garda Lake (North of Italy).
This machine, conceived by Eng. Mario Castoldi of Macchi-Castoldi, was quite amazing.
It had 2 independent coaxial FIAT AS-6 engines (12V-60?), liquid cooled, each driving a 2-blade propeller; the 2 propellers were counter-turning.
The 2 engines had an overall power of about 3000 HP in speed race configuration, and 2500 HP for endurance competitions. They were feed with a centrifugal turbocharger and 8 carburettors, using a mix (conceived by Rod Banks) that was composed by 55% gasoline, 22% benzole, 23% alcohol and 0,15% tetraethyl lead. Their overall lenght was about 4 meters.
To find the right valve configuration of the AS-6 engines, in order to avoid the initial feeding and back-fire problems, twelve different valve combinations were tested and 1000 valves of 12 different kinds of steel were utilized.
Radiators were flat and made of copper, and were placed on the boots, wings and fuselage to minimize drag.
The structure and the cover of front fuselage, boots and wings was metal, while rear fuselage was wood.

I've seen this "monster" in a small museum of the Italian Military Air Force near Rome, and I have to say that after 69 years (!!!) this bright red bird seems ready to fly again and show you what is capable of !!!
And you know what?
This record is still unbeaten!
The Macchi MC-72 is still the fastest propeller seaplane of the world!

In august 7, 1961, the Sovietic JET Seaplane Beriev M.10 of Nikolai Andrjewski reached 912 km/h.

Thus, 69 years later, the Italian record with a propeller-driven seaplane is still on!

Take a look at the pictures of this bird:

http://www.ottocubano.com/images/Macchi%20MC%2072.jpg

http://aeroweb.lucia.it/gifs/history/mc724.jpg




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Message Edited on 09/18/0305:01PM by Cippacometa

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:04 PM
who flew it

http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/art/authorphoto/cookie.jpg


him?

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Which Colossal Death Robot Are You? (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/giantrobot/)

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:07 PM
Bobsqueek wrote:
- who flew it
-
-- him?

No, I did.



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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:23 PM
motore FIAT?

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:26 PM
Excellent thread Cippacometa, thanks! An important but not well-known achievement /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:40 PM
Excellent, I didn`t know that this famous plane still exists, not to mention it`s on display!

Thanks!

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'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:20 PM
Baloban wrote:
- motore FIAT?
-

Of course.
Don't you know that also Ferrari is FIAT since about 15 years?
Not so bad... but I drive Volkswagen!!!
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:24 PM
And it took the Germans until 1939 to go faster with a Heinkel, a land plane.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:55 PM
Bobsqueek wrote:
- who flew it

The record setting flight of the MC-72 was flown by Francesco Agello of the Italian Air Force. The aircraft was built to compete in the Schneider races of 1931 but teething troubles kept if out of the competition. The winner of the 1931 competition was the Supermarine S6B and the Brits took home the trophy for good after their 3rd consecutive victory. The MC-72 was then used in a variety of record breaking flights and reached just over 700 km/h.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 01:23 AM
gerhardius wrote:
-- The record setting flight of the MC-72 was flown by
- Francesco Agello of the Italian Air Force. The
- aircraft was built to compete in the Schneider races
- of 1931 but teething troubles kept if out of the
- competition. The winner of the 1931 competition was
- the Supermarine S6B and the Brits took home the
- trophy for good after their 3rd consecutive victory.
- The MC-72 was then used in a variety of record
- breaking flights and reached just over 700 km/h.

Yeah!
And from these English Schneider Cup seaplanes derived the most famous english fighter: the Spitfire!

By the way, here is another Macchi seaplane, older than MC-72:

http://www.ottocubano.com/images/Macchi%20M39%20vigna%20di%20valle.jpg

It is the Macchi M-39, winner of the USA edition of Schneider Cup in 1926.
It had a FIAT AS-2 V12 engine with 800 HP and reached "just" 396.689 km/h. Not bad for year 1926!
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Both Macchi seaplanes are in the Vigna di Valle museum in Bracciano, a nice small town on a lake 80 km from Rome: I love that place!

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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 02:40 AM
gerhardius wrote:
- Bobsqueek wrote:
-- who flew it
-
- The record setting flight of the MC-72 was flown by
- Francesco Agello of the Italian Air Force. The
- aircraft was built to compete in the Schneider races
- of 1931 but teething troubles kept if out of the
- competition. The winner of the 1931 competition was
- the Supermarine S6B and the Brits took home the
- trophy for good after their 3rd consecutive victory.
- The MC-72 was then used in a variety of record
- breaking flights and reached just over 700 km/h.
-
-


Two pilots were killed, Monti(2.8.31) and Bellini(10.9.31), testing the MC72. General Crocco invited American fuel expert F. Rodwell Banks to help debug the MC72. He found that above 400mph the fuel mixture went lean which resulted in a violent backfire blowing up the induction system. Fiat was able to then get 3000hp @ 3300rpm with the props turning 1980rpm with Bank's new fuel mixture.


For those interested read

"Schneider Tropy Racers
Robert S. Hirsch
ISBN 0-87938-616-9

It has drawings of most of the a/c.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 03:01 AM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- Two pilots were killed, Monti(2.8.31) and
- Bellini(10.9.31), testing the MC72. General Crocco
- invited American fuel expert F. Rodwell Banks to
- help debug the MC72. He found that above 400mph the
- fuel mixture went lean which resulted in a violent
- backfire blowing up the induction system. Fiat was
- able to then get 3000hp @ 3300rpm with the props
- turning 1980rpm with Bank's new fuel mixture.

Yeah! That back-fire problem of AS-6 engines was due to the too high intake pressure when the plane approached >600 km/h. The problem was solved by the exotic fuel mixture and by placing the air intake between the two engine in such a way that it was not "overcharged" by the high pressure air stram produced by the propellers.

This sort of technical-historical stuff is so interesting!
It makes me live somehow the atmpsphere of exaltation that those men must have experienced to reach their goal. Looks meybe a bit like a today's Moto GP team... but with no electronics, and lot of hand/brain work!!

Waiting for an add-on "IL-2 Sturmovik - Forgotten AirRaces"?
Where, instead of getting kills, you have to get FAST.
And where you can engeneer your plane, its engine, aerodynamics and so on in order to achieve the best speed possible, or the best maneuvrability for aerobatic races, and so on... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Oleg?!?!?!
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 03:26 AM
Cippacometa , do you have any pics of the Savoia S.65 and the Piaggo-Pegna P.c.7 that you can post? Both intersting a/c./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Do you have any info on the 3 bank I-S Asso motor?

A little note on Giovanni Monti. In the 1929 race while at 20-30ft in the MC.67, #10, a coolant pipe burst just before the turn and he was badly scalded. Somehow he managed to land safely.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 09:27 AM
Mmmm, by the way, I'd like to fly in an Schneider Trophy sim, with the Savoias, the Curtiss planes, the Supermarine S.6B and all that hidro stuff.

It's great for a chenge. There could be implemented a plane constructing tool to try designing one and compete online. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -

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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 10:16 AM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Cippacometa , do you have any pics of the Savoia
- S.65 and the Piaggo-Pegna P.c.7 that you can post?

a link with a pict of a Piaggio Pegna

http://digilander.libero.it/dbmontello/PEGNAPC7.htm

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:05 AM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Cippacometa , do you have any pics of the Savoia
- S.65 and the Piaggo-Pegna P.c.7 that you can post?
- Both intersting a/c.
- Do you have any info on the 3 bank I-S Asso motor?

http://digilander.libero.it/dbmontello/Alifoto/Piaggio%20Pegna.jpg

Here is the Piaggio-Pegna P.C.7 "Pinocchio", anoter Schneider Cup plane.
Eng. Giovanni Pegna decided to explore this novel and daring design as a way to decrease drag and, consequently, increase the speed of the Italian Cup Racers. The use of hydrofoils eliminated the need for floats and allowed for a theoretical top speed of about 600 km/h (!!!). Preliminary floating tests which were successful, but the design development was cancelled due to problems and high costs not affordable by Piaggio Company (the one of the Vespa and Lambretta, you know, the first scooters ever produced!). The Italian government basically decided to stay with Macchi and its' more conventional float planes.
During years 1928-1929, 2 "Pinocchios" were built.
They were powered by an Isotta-Fraschini 800 HP engine.

I don't have, neither found, any photo of the Savoia S.65 (do you have some of them?), but look at these "photos" of the S.21, utilized by the japanese cartoonist Miyazaki for his movie "Porco Rosso" (you have to watch it!).
The Savoia S.21 was a fighting seaplane that was being flown over the Adriatic sea in the later half of the 1920's. This fighting seaplane was developed for the Royal Italian Military Marine of the Savoia (the kings of Italy at that time). But it was not put into production, so it remained at the stage of one only exemplar. Moreover, it was completely different from the seaplane of Miyazaki's movie (it looked more like a Macchi).
In Miyazaki's movie, this only exemplar was purchased by a mysterious pilot nicknamed "il Porco Rosso" (the Red Pig). He bought it for his own personal usage, painted it bright red and installed a couple of MGs. He named his plane "Folgore" (Lightning) and used to be a mercenary fighting over the Adriaic Sea against air pirates and other mercenaries.

http://j.parsons.edu/~virapat/the_church/Guest/MetalSlime/savoia-title.jpg
http://adaya.kiy.jp/cg/r21-savoia_s-21.JPG
http://www.oomu.org/images/porco1999.jpg

Regarding the infos on the 3-banks IS Asso engine, I'm 90% sure that there's one of these engines in the same museum where's the 2 Macchis (Museo di Vigna di Valle, on the Bracciano Lake, near Rome). Anyway, this museum is really worth a visit. Do you live far from it?

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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:12 AM
DuxCorvan wrote:
- Mmmm, by the way, I'd like to fly in an Schneider
- Trophy sim, with the Savoias, the Curtiss planes,
- the Supermarine S.6B and all that hidro stuff.
-
- It's great for a chenge. There could be implemented
- a plane constructing tool to try designing one and
- compete online.

Yea, it would be a nice change beside all this "shot'em all" in the flight sims.
Do you imagine to race online in a scenery like that of the mediterranean sea, or a mountain lake like that on the cartoon's picture, with a plane that you really "created" by yourself with the tools of the program?
Oleeeg!!

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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:54 AM
Cippacometa wrote:

-
- I don't have, neither found, any photo of the Savoia
- S.65 (do you have some of them?),
-

Yes, in the book mentioned above, there is 3 photos and 2 scale drawings of the pull/push S.65.

-
-
- Regarding the infos on the 3-banks IS Asso engine,
- I'm 90% sure that there's one of these engines in
- the same museum where's the 2 Macchis (Museo di
- Vigna di Valle, on the Bracciano Lake, near Rome).
- Anyway, this museum is really worth a visit. Do you
- live far from it?
-
-

Iwill continue searching for info, thanks.
Yes very far, ~6000km away./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/grinnell-therewent10-2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 01:05 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- Yes, in the book mentioned above, there is 3 photos
- and 2 scale drawings of the pull/push S.65.

Maybe you can scan and send?
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Iwill continue searching for info, thanks.
- Yes very far, ~6000km away

Me too, I live now in Marseille, France (=900 km from Rome).
And you? 6000 km sounds like America...

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 12:28 AM
The Savoia S.65

http://aviationmodels-online.com/Featured_model2/page_1/S65.jpg


Macchi MC72

http://aviationmodels-online.com/Featured_model2/page_1/mc72.jpg


Supermarine S6B

http://www.hydroretro.net/images/avions/supermarines6b.jpg


Macchi M67

http://www.hydroretro.net/images/avions/macchi_m67.jpg


Macchi M52

http://www.hydroretro.net/images/avions/MacchiM52.jpg


Macchi M39

http://www.hydroretro.net/images/avions/macchi_m39.jpg


Curtiss R3C2

http://www.hydroretro.net/images/avions/CurtissR3C2.jpg


Gloster Napeir III

http://www.hydroretro.net/images/avions/gloster_3.jpg


Curtiss CR3

http://www.hydroretro.net/images/avions/curtisscr-3.jpg


Supermarine Sealion III

http://www.hydroretro.net/images/avions/smsl31923.jpg


CAM 38

http://www.hydroretro.net/images/avions/cams38.jpg


http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 09:40 AM
W O W !!!!!!

They're beautyful sea-birds !!

Where did you get those pictures?
I mean, those of the models?

Great stuff, thanx!
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



http://www.uploadit.org/files/030903-Tempest_MkV_picc.jpg </p>


I have more pistons than you!</p>

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:10 AM
Cippacometa wrote:
- It had 2 independent coaxial FIAT AS-6 engines
- (12V-60?), liquid cooled, each driving a 2-blade
- propeller; the 2 propellers were counter-turning.

Cunning! Shame Heinkel didn't spot this one (or Avro).

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:39 AM
AaronGT wrote:
-
- Cunning! Shame Heinkel didn't spot this one (or
- Avro).

Hé! Italians did badly on WW2, but at least they were the best in motor competitons! And they still are!!!!
Look at the MotoGP, 250, 125 and Formule 1 !!!



http://www.uploadit.org/files/030903-Tempest_MkV_picc.jpg </p>


I have more pistons than you!</p>

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:48 AM
Oooooh; take those ridiculous-looking pontons off and that MC-72 beats the Spitfire hands down in the "killer good looks"-department...
Pack some guns on it, and... I want one! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif





-----------------------------------

"I don't know what weapons World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
-A. Einstein
"And any leftover assault weapons" -Fallout Fan


I am an Arado whiner. And proud of it.

http://www.vectorsite.net/avar234.html
Not my site. But a good place to start if you want to join the Arado-whining. The Arado needs *you* today!

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:53 AM
Dystopian wrote:
- Oooooh; take those ridiculous-looking pontons off
- and that MC-72 beats the Spitfire hands down in the
- "killer good looks"-department...
- Pack some guns on it, and... I want one!

ME TOOOO !!!!



http://www.uploadit.org/files/030903-Tempest_MkV_picc.jpg </p>


I have more pistons than you!</p>

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 10:57 AM
WOW!!! Thanks a lot, man.

I find it quite amusing that world speed records at that time were in the hands of seaplanes despite the incredible drag of the floats...

Can you imagine what this bird would be able to do, if it jettisoned the floats after take off /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ?

regards, tt

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 11:06 AM
tigertalon wrote:
- Can you imagine what this bird would be able to do,
- if it jettisoned the floats after take off ?

Yeah, actually I have no idea why they did these speed races on seaplanes...
MiloMorai, do you have any knowledge?



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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 01:10 PM
They originally started off in the early 1910s as contest to improve 'hydroplanes'. Speed was only one part of the competition. They also had to demonstrate that they could stay afloat for a specific time period.

The tropy was put up by Jacques Schneider and can be seen at the British Air Museum.

A brief history

http://www.esparacing.com/Aviation%20history/daredevils/Schneider.htm

http://a1276.g.akamai.net/7/1276/734/625ed428e022ef/www.harley-davidson.com/PR/MOT/2004/Softail/images/DOM/img_Softail_FXST.jpg

http://www.redneckengineering.com/photogallery/photo23581/curves-done-03.jpg

"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 04:58 PM
I found some more pics of the Piaggio PC7 "Pinocchio"...

Nice PC7 link (in Italian):

http://www.aviogatti.it/piaggio1.htm

This is the plane before its last flight, on September 13, 1931, when its pilot Tommaso Dal Molin died after the PC7 exploded in mid-air during a test fly.
http://www.aviogatti.it/piaggiopc7bn.jpg


Piaggio PC7 "Pinocchio" scheme:
http://www.aviogatti.it/piaggiopc7r.jpg



For those who don't know: Piaggio is the Italian factory that invented and produced the first scooter, the world-known Vespa (Wasp). Now they're still doing scooters and the great-grand-grand-grand-son of the Vespa...




http://www.uploadit.org/files/170903-G55_Firma.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 05:26 PM
Cippacometa wrote:

-
- This is the plane before its last flight, on
- September 13, 1931, when its pilot Tommaso Dal Molin
- died after the PC7 exploded in mid-air during a test
- fly.
-

Cippa, Dal Molin died while flying the Savioa-Marchetti S.65 when it crashed into Lake Garda on Jan. 18 1931.

The Paiggo never got farther up than onto the foils, at least for the 1929 Calshot race. Testing continued into mid-1930 but was cancelled by the AM.

ref. Hirsch's Schnieder Trophy book.


http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/west-battleline.jpg



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 05:29 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
-- Cippa, Dal Molin died while flying the
- Savioa-Marchetti S.65 when it crashed into Lake
- Garda on Jan. 18 1931.
-
- The Paiggo never got farther up than onto the foils,
- at least for the 1929 Calshot race. Testing
- continued into mid-1930 but was cancelled by the AM.
-
- ref. Hirsch's Schnieder Trophy book.

... I just reported what I've read on that site.
But I trust your book more!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



http://www.uploadit.org/files/170903-G55_Firma.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 05:56 PM
Cippacometa wrote:

- It had 2 independent coaxial FIAT AS-6 engines
- (12V-60?), liquid cooled, each driving a 2-blade
- propeller; the 2 propellers were counter-turning.

I have a picture of this engine wich my father took as we visited this museum a couple of years ago:


http://home.c2i.net/skarphol/Fiatmotor.jpg


Skarphol

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 09:42 PM
Skarphol wrote:
- Cippacometa wrote:
-
-- It had 2 independent coaxial FIAT AS-6 engines
-- (12V-60?), liquid cooled, each driving a 2-blade
-- propeller; the 2 propellers were counter-turning.
-
- I have a picture of this engine wich my father took
- as we visited this museum a couple of years ago:
-
-
http://home.c2i.net/skarphol/Fiatmotor.jpg
-
- Skarphol


IL MOSTRO !!!!!!!!!!!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif




http://www.uploadit.org/files/170903-G55_Firma.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 02:35 PM
WOW, I love this guy!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.ndrcc.com/images/Float_Fly_WU/Ivan_Taxiing_in.jpg




<center>http://www.uploadit.org/files/170903-G55_Firma.jpg </center>