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Avont29
08-30-2006, 08:18 AM
my squadron flies with the speedbar off...grr..

how am i to read my speed and alt from the gauges? i can't see it from normal view, i have to go to gunsight view, which is zomed like 5 times to se the gauge, and then i can't concentrate on the air in front of me, and might fly off my course. my resolution is 640,480,16 picture quality- rxcellent, my card is crapy thats why its so low, if i get a better car, and turn resolution up, will i be able to see gauges perfectly at normal FOV?

p-11.cAce
08-30-2006, 08:26 AM
Yeah - you need a higher resolution! Even with a good card, TIR, and a 27" lcd monitor I still have trouble with some gauges in a few a/c - mostly the ones low on the panel which I need to zoom in abit on. The speedbar really does not give you much useful info - break that habit as soon as you can http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Divine-Wind
08-30-2006, 08:47 AM
Yeah, it only tells you your current speed and altitude. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Try lowering your graphics so you can turn up your resolution. Even if it's only to 800x600.

skissors
08-30-2006, 03:55 PM
There is no way I could fly with out the speed and altitude bar. I find it hard enough flying in a straight line looking straight ahead, let alone trying to look down and zoom into the panel.
I think doing this in a sim would be a lot harder than in real life, which you would just glance down, like checking your speed in a car.

So I think the speed and alitude bar replicates the glancing part very well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MrMojok
08-30-2006, 04:10 PM
CONCUR! I think getting rid of the speed bar in effort to go "full-real" is a bit extreme.

I have "gunsight view" mapped to a button and sometimes look at the gauges with it. I think there are a couple of other functions you can bind to "zoom" but haven't figured them out.

My resolution is 1152x684, too.

Chuck_Older
08-30-2006, 04:12 PM
You might not be able to read the little numbers on the gauges from normal view, but once you know where they are, you can look, and note where the needles are. If you know that, for example, your airspeed indicator is marked for 200mph at 5 o'clock on the gauge, and your gauge is marked every 50 mph, and your needle is just between the marks at roughly 6 o'clock, you know you're doing about 225 mph indicated. Easy. Same with the altimeter.

x6BL_Brando
08-30-2006, 04:30 PM
I agree about it being harder to read gauges than in real life, especially if we're talking the ones we may know best in RL - like speedo (definitely), rev-counter maybe, clock, radio channel. The cute cold LED on the cup-holder. LOL, yeah. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Throw in about 20 extra gauges, plus one or two compasses (not necessarily visible, try an I-16), trim wheels and levers - and the speedbar AND the HUD display are absolute lifesavers. And of course, the instruments may well be written in a language foreign to you. I spend a lot of time in Russian planes just trying to work out what a dial is about.

Better screen reso, a well-balanced TrackIR, and using the FOV increase/decrease buttons makes seeing them a lot easier. Knowing what the instrumentation refers to can only be done by study. I don't have a link to hand, but cockpit instrument 'maps' have been drawn, with explanations and translations. Very useful if you plan to specialise in one or two planes and master them, and then fly without HUD or speedbar. It all depends on how good you are at memorising layouts.

B.

Edit:

PS - if I'd known Chuck was about I would have written ....'speedo maybe...rev-counter definitely!' LOL. hi Chuck http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz
08-30-2006, 08:32 PM
Full Real ....

minus peripheral vision
minus stereoscopic vision
minus head movement except pivot by artificial means
minus eye movement, only head pivot turns vision
minus fast focus ability
with pixellated color limited view
minus ability of eye to adjust to light
minus G's and feel of motion
minus a number of other real things

so what do people do?
find ways to call small compensations "unreal"
it MUST be an ego thing

orkan_3d
08-30-2006, 09:40 PM
Ego plus stuborn stupidity. Or is it the same?

MrMojok
08-30-2006, 09:50 PM
I should have said the much more politically-correct "Full-Switch" instead


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

horseback
08-30-2006, 11:24 PM
TIR and a couple of buttons assigned to Gunsight and Wide views do it for me-the trick is to remember to center the gauge you want in Wide view, then zoom into Gunsight view.

Otherwise, you end up losing time hunting for the gauge you want.

cheers

horseback

Feathered_IV
08-31-2006, 01:44 AM
I've been playing using speed bar and icons/map icons etc. all switched off for quite some time. Once you get used to it, it's an even more rewarding experience, I find. I'd definitely reccomend it to all. My next big thing will be weaning myself off the HUD data on the right hand side of the screen. Have to watch those temp guages pretty closely http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Henkie_
08-31-2006, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Full Real ....

minus peripheral vision
minus stereoscopic vision
minus head movement except pivot by artificial means
minus eye movement, only head pivot turns vision
minus fast focus ability
with pixellated color limited view
minus ability of eye to adjust to light
minus G's and feel of motion
minus a number of other real things


That's "full handicapped". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG52Uther
08-31-2006, 04:55 AM
Its strange,even though I am British,I find the German gauges much easier to read.Things are easier with the speedbar,look nicer without.

Bearcat99
08-31-2006, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by Avont29:
my squadron flies with the speedbar off...grr..

how am i to read my speed and alt from the gauges? i can't see it from normal view, i have to go to gunsight view, which is zomed like 5 times to se the gauge, and then i can't concentrate on the air in front of me, and might fly off my course. my resolution is 640,480,16 picture quality- rxcellent, my card is crapy thats why its so low, if i get a better car, and turn resolution up, will i be able to see gauges perfectly at normal FOV?

Did you go to the PR and access the files I told you about? Go to the Links>Training Links page of the Panther Room and DL Neural Dream's Aircraft Reference Guide. It has a list of all the gauges for every plane and what they do. All you need to concern yourself with initially is the altimeter and speedometer.


Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
You might not be able to read the little numbers on the gauges from normal view, but once you know where they are, you can look, and note where the needles are. If you know that, for example, your airspeed indicator is marked for 200mph at 5 o'clock on the gauge, and your gauge is marked every 50 mph, and your needle is just between the marks at roughly 6 o'clock, you know you're doing about 225 mph indicated. Easy. Same with the altimeter.

Precisely..........


Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
I've been playing using speed bar and icons/map icons etc. all switched off for quite some time. Once you get used to it, it's an even more rewarding experience, I find. I'd definitely reccomend it to all. My next big thing will be weaning myself off the HUD data on the right hand side of the screen. Have to watch those temp guages pretty closely http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I already do that it is interesting. It forced me to watch the gauges more... and now I dont even call out throttle positions.. I call out pressure and RPM... and I have to watch the temps. The only thing I dont like about no HUD is I dont always know if I hit the target or got the kill untill the end of the mission if I cant see it on my rollout. I can live with that though, since for me.. it is all about surviving anyway... that and the survival of my wingman. If I rack up a boatload of points but I die.. or come back to base alone.. what good is it?



Originally posted by Henkie_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Full Real ....

minus peripheral vision
minus stereoscopic vision
minus head movement except pivot by artificial means
minus eye movement, only head pivot turns vision
minus fast focus ability
with pixellated color limited view
minus ability of eye to adjust to light
minus G's and feel of motion
minus a number of other real things

That's "full handicapped". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe.... maybe not... personally I will always prefer to fly with externals.... the sim is too pretty to not use them.. plus in coops it is boring as all get out waiting for the mission to end if you go down early on ... and thats what we do primarily.. IMO no externals is better suited to competitive DF rooms... I prefer tight icons rather than none at all ... on some maps at certain times it is just too hard to see targets.. at least for me, I suffer from CSS. However for training purposes if you are trying to learn how to navigate, aircraft recognition and improve overall SA and grow into a more challenging arena within the confines of the sim and the overall community.... there must be a challenge correct? No pain no gain.

In order to learn how to navigate you must elininate the waypoints.... in order to better pay attention to where you are and what is going on in your plane you need to learn to use the bare bones available.. that way the looser setting will be that much easier to use and you can concentrate on the mission. I never have been one of the elitist "Full Real Only" flyers.... and will never be... but being able to compete effectively in any server with any settings is in my humble opinion a worthy goal and one that will only be achieved by doing the necessary work to attain it, as painfull and frustrating as it may be initially.

DuxCorvan
08-31-2006, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Full Real ....

minus peripheral vision
minus stereoscopic vision
minus head movement except pivot by artificial means
minus eye movement, only head pivot turns vision
minus fast focus ability
with pixellated color limited view
minus ability of eye to adjust to light
minus G's and feel of motion
minus a number of other real things

so what do people do?
find ways to call small compensations "unreal"
it MUST be an ego thing

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

RAF74_Poker
08-31-2006, 07:39 AM
People ... let's not get into a "full real" my way is better than your way, it's realism/pathetic... debate.

It's a matter of preference.

That's all.

personally, I like flying w/o the speedbar, etc... that's my preference. My friends and I flew a P-40 coop campaign .. by the end of it we were calling our engine management by rpm, etc.. rather than throttle/pitch etc..
Made for a much more immersive experience for me ... for others, maybe not so ..

All a matter of taste ... one is not necessarily better than the other .. so please, let's not get into a my way is better debate. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Crash_Moses
08-31-2006, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
You might not be able to read the little numbers on the gauges from normal view, but once you know where they are, you can look, and note where the needles are. If you know that, for example, your airspeed indicator is marked for 200mph at 5 o'clock on the gauge, and your gauge is marked every 50 mph, and your needle is just between the marks at roughly 6 o'clock, you know you're doing about 225 mph indicated. Easy. Same with the altimeter.

Yup. Another reason to master one plane at a time. No problems reading the gauges in my favorite rides. Remember, most pilots had hundreds of hours in their aircraft before they ever saw combat. Practice, practice, practice.

But for the casual simmer the speedbar is a good compromise.

Ernst_Rohr
08-31-2006, 08:21 AM
I agree with Crash, I tend to stick to a particlar plane or set of planes and work on them for a while.

I have gotten comfortable flying full switch after flying with icons/map icons and speedbar for years. Now I find the icons kind of distracting, since I am trying to range targets based on the sight picture in the gunsight. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Full switch definately is more challenging, and learning the gages is a HUGE benefit when flying online in a competative environment. For several planes, knowing EXACTLY where your performance edge is a a big benefit to flying competatively, and maniford pressure and temp are big in that arena.

It does take a little practice, but once you get used to it, its a huge help in flight. I would also second the recommendation to download Neural Dreams aircraft cockpit guide, its a immensely valuable tool, since it maps out all the gage positions, and even explains some of the weird looking ones! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Divine-Wind
08-31-2006, 08:39 AM
It might be a good idea to map the gunsight & zoomed out/widescreen view functions to two buttons near your hands. If you have a HOTAS, mapping them to buttons will help alot. Right now I have them mapped to the third hatswitch, on the X52 throttle quadrant.

Henkie_
09-02-2006, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Maybe.... maybe not...

Do you mean that the real fighterpilot without all the things like peripheral vision etc. etc. etc. will "maybe or maybe not" be fully handicapped?

I think he must look for another job.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As players of this game we quickly start to believe that it is normal that we are visually handicapped in the sim. But unless you are really visually handicapped, there's nothing easier than looking around, reading gauges and looking around again.
It's as easy as looking at HUD messages or the speedbar for example.

Ofcourse anybody can get used to playing without speedbar and using only gauges, and there is nothing wrong with that also. But then we are only making it unnescessarily (unrealistically) more difficult for the player. I think that in some cockpits you can not even read all the gauges!

As long as reading all the gauges isn't as easy in the sim as in a real plane, the speedbar will be a good substitute. Absolutely.

orkan_3d
09-02-2006, 07:14 AM
Try reading compass on Il-2 Series 1,2,3, no way!
At least not without 6DOF.
And that is only the worst example, Gladiator, Hurry, Spit, you have to look through stick handle!

Flying_Nutcase
09-02-2006, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
I've been playing using speed bar and icons/map icons etc. all switched off for quite some time. Once you get used to it, it's an even more rewarding experience, I find. I'd definitely reccomend it to all. My next big thing will be weaning myself off the HUD data on the right hand side of the screen. Have to watch those temp guages pretty closely http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

+1. I don't why people think it's some kind of ego trip. Surely it's an immersion thing and it certainly feels more real looking at the beautiful cockpit guages than a red number on the screen. All to their own of course.

I recently switched off the HUD too and really had to think about the engine, e.g. manifold pressure and temperature, etc. The same without map icons - it makes navigation a huge immersion factor - it throws you in the game like never before. You really feel like you're flying for real and longish flights to a target are anything but boring - constant checking landmarks and elapsed time and confirming the time/bearing/waypoints for the next leg. Preparing a pre-flight nav log is part of the immersion too.

Fair enough if you want to stick with the speedbar and HUD, but pleaaaase don't make a generalisation that it's an ego trip. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif An immersion trip: Hell yes!

PS Saying that no Speedbar/HUD is making it more difficult than in real life is fair enough too, but for me anyway it still makes the whole flying experience feel more real. And remember that there are plenty of things that are a whole lot easier than in real life, so maybe it balances things out. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Anyway, I'm not meaning to argue the point, just showing another angle. There's no 'right' or 'wrong'. Hell, I used the HUD for three years or so.

Avont29
09-03-2006, 01:28 AM
ok, don't go on talking agbout how crappy or how much better cfs is or wahtever, but here

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=146882680862381...bat+flight+simul ator (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1468826808623816670&q=combat+flight+simulator)

its a video of cfs3, but justy pay attention to the view in the cockpit, you can read every guage from default view, thats so sweet

Henkie_
09-03-2006, 04:17 AM
Never played CFS3, but I see what you mean. With those cockpits you don't need HUD messages or speedbar. You can see and read them in one glance and still look outside.

AlGroover
09-03-2006, 04:52 AM
It sounds like a better video card would make a huge difference. I'm guessing the slot in your machine is AGP so the choice is limited as the industry goes to PCIE. I've had good service from a Sapphire Radeon 9600XT 256 Mb card which is still available at quite a reasonable price. Just a tip, you'll probably get better results from a low to medium end system if you go for better screen resolution in preference to cranking up the antialiasing to try and smooth out the lumps and bumps.

John_Wayne_
09-03-2006, 07:05 AM
Any of you guys tried NewView? You can set a button to pan your view down to the instrument panel plus a few other nice features like scanning 180 degrees.

Available at Airwarfare. I like it.

Avont29
09-03-2006, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by AlGroover:
It sounds like a better video card would make a huge difference. I'm guessing the slot in your machine is AGP so the choice is limited as the industry goes to PCIE. I've had good service from a Sapphire Radeon 9600XT 256 Mb card which is still available at quite a reasonable price. Just a tip, you'll probably get better results from a low to medium end system if you go for better screen resolution in preference to cranking up the antialiasing to try and smooth out the lumps and bumps.


yea bearcat said he had some 128mb agp card laying aroud, and tghat he would send it to me, thank god im in his squadron, i really need a new one, with the screen freezes i get and the 2 fps i get on the carrier with other people