PDA

View Full Version : Oleg, please "fix" TrackIR/FB view system



XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 10:16 AM
Hi Oleg,

Just want to let you know that people with certain versions of the TrackIR software(or by performing a registry hack of some kind)can access the full unrestricted views in FB...

I think that most of us would agree that we need to have this view available to all or to none; at the moment it is only available to TrackIR users, which does seems a little unfair.


I have opened a thread at SimHQ on this subject here (rather long):
http://oldsite.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=004676

A lot of interesting and positive comments have come across along with good input and general ideas on future viewing systems, including important points raised by real combat pilots.


Thank you for listening


S!ap



PS, good luck on BOB

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 10:16 AM
Hi Oleg,

Just want to let you know that people with certain versions of the TrackIR software(or by performing a registry hack of some kind)can access the full unrestricted views in FB...

I think that most of us would agree that we need to have this view available to all or to none; at the moment it is only available to TrackIR users, which does seems a little unfair.


I have opened a thread at SimHQ on this subject here (rather long):
http://oldsite.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=004676

A lot of interesting and positive comments have come across along with good input and general ideas on future viewing systems, including important points raised by real combat pilots.


Thank you for listening


S!ap



PS, good luck on BOB

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 10:26 AM
Respectfully, please, no unrealistic features for this great sim!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 10:28 AM
Agreed, and I'm a TrackIR cheat user myself /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 11:12 AM
From my back-seat experience in F-5F, Mirage IIIDS and PC-9, the rear view ability looks like this pic from the back seat of a B-47:

http://www.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=9182846/PictureID=184041384/t_=7687419

Cheers,

Message Edited on 10/26/0310:14AM by CHDT

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 12:23 PM
Mornin Slapp, /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

100% agree and a bump

Slapp wrote:
- Hi Oleg,
-
- Just want to let you know that people with certain
- versions of the TrackIR software(or by performing a
- registry hack of some kind)can access the full
- unrestricted views in FB...
-
- I think that most of us would agree that we need to
- have this view available to all or to none; at the
- moment it is only available to TrackIR users, which
- does seems a little unfair.


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 01:49 PM
CHDT, your link needs to be fixed (or put the pic somewhere else, please). The link wants me to register. No thanks. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I do not think the original poster is here to argue the point of what a real view looks like. He just does not want TrackIR users to have an unfair advantage over other users. Or, give 'the view' to everyone.

IMO, this is one of the times that I can say something really is a cheat, not just an exploit. This is not available to every user that buys FB, from within the game itself. You have to buy additional hardware, and make it a point to use older software.

Aside:
Hristos, do you really have to use that? There is just no way you can find it within yourself to give your opponent a more equal fight? A better word may be, a more respectable fight.

Please, Oleg, comment on this and assure us this will be fixed no later than the very next patch. (Hell, I though it was fixed with the last patch.)

EDIT: For the sake of the thread.

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/26/0307:10AM by RealKill

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 02:19 PM
Arg, sorry for the link. It's a pity, the pic shows exactly what you really can see in a combat aircraft when looking to the rear! I will try to find another free web host service.

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 02:26 PM
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/338967/B-47cockpitrearview.jpg


From the back seat of a B-47.


In fact, in a real combat aircraft, you can see a little bit more to the rear than in FB, but certainly not a full complete six view! And this pic from a B-47 shows exactly what is able to be seen when you are strapped on a seat, when you let your shoulders be a little free. But in combat or during hard evolutions, you had to keep your shoulders fixed for obvious reasons of security, so the view to the rear in FB is rather realistic.

Cheers,



Message Edited on 10/26/0301:32PM by CHDT

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 03:38 PM
RealKill wrote:
-- Hristos, do you really have to use that?
- There is just no way you can find it within yourself
- to give your opponent a more equal fight? A better
- word may be, a more respectable fight.
-


I use whatever advantage the game allows me to. And especially if my opponents may be using it as well. Just as I would do in real life. Denying myself such advantages would be silly in a competitive environment of an air combat.

Should I throw away my rudder pedals since not erveyone has them ? How about programmable joystick ?

Whenever I fly 190 vs other planes, it is OK with me, since my better rear view compensates for flawed 190 forward view of this sim.

As for being fair, I am not. I bounce planes with less E, I sneak into blind spots, run for ack - you name it. Just as every other noob doesn't care and jumps in best plane after each and every patch and has no problem with it. The only line I draw is that I won't flying anything else than 190. Ever. And that used to be a hard proposition sometimes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

As for being againt it, sure. Fix it and I will adapt. Until then, don't blame me for using it. Simple, eh ?



<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

Message Edited on 10/26/0303:41PM by Hristos

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 05:03 PM
Hristos wrote:
-
- Simple, eh ?

What is simple is... people displaying questionable actions will always find a way to rationalize them away.

By your same line of thought, if an aimbot was available to you, you should be able to use it till the developers prevent you from it. After all, you will use whatever advantage the game allows you to use. You are using specific software that allows that 6 o'clock view, just as aimbot cheaters use specific software.

Also, you can feed that "throw away my rudder pedals" line to someone else. Not the same thing. No even close. Rudder is available to all players. That screwy 6 o'clock view is not.

Anyway, your 'preventitive' argument has no merit. There is newer software that is available that does not allow that view. Sooo... DL it and adapt, as you claim you can.

-

Yeah. I did not think so.

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 05:48 PM
OK. Let me 'lighten' this up.

TrackIR, no TrackIR, does not matter. Judge the Linda Blair view as 'you' see fit.

Bottom line... I lay this squarly on Oleg's shoulders.

Remove the view for TrackIr, New View, or any other hardware/software or software, or, as has been mentioned by many in the past, give 'the view' to ALL!

For me, I have had TrackIR for months now. I have not used it because I use too much body motion and just did not feel like making myslef adjust over however long it would have taken me. (I use to race Pro motocross, and later raced superbikes. I just move too damn much.) However, I am, right now, setting up my TrackIR again. I am going to give it/me another chance. I am having a little more time to play, so thought I would do this.

I just Dl'ed the newest software. I do not know if the LB view is available. If it is, I do have a version of their software, that I last used months ago, that I know does not have that view. If I have to, I will use that software.

Call me 'whatever', but I belive in fair play. After all, this is just a game. If I cannot even be fair in this, then really, what kind of person am I? I guess that is just something we all have to think through for ourselves.

I do know this. I will have a very difficult time getting use to it. I have already tried, so I know. But, I will not rationalize that I should use the LB view because of that. I will give my opponents the same respect that I would want from them.

Oleg, I guess the rest is up to you!

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 06:07 PM
Speaking for myself here. Not an apology, not an excuse, but an insight how I see things in our virtual skies.

I simply do not trust other players. Thus, I use every advantage available to me. If they trust me, it is their problem.

And I really don't care. Maybe once I cared, but too many times I've been vulched, ********ed, warpcheated or whatever to be a fair player now. Forget it. Be fair and lose, be mean and win.

If developers consider it big deal, it is up to them to prevent it. If I can get away with it, I will.Be sure.

Simply, I get up in my Fw 190 to shoot other people down. Not to play fair, not to dance with them in the sky, not to give salutes.

Watching them spiraling down in flames is my ultimate virtual joy. And I'll do anything I can to get it.

And yes, I strafe chutes /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

Got the message ?

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

Message Edited on 10/26/0306:09PM by Hristos

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 06:09 PM
Hristos wrote:
-
- And yes, I strafe chutes

Now, don't you think 'I' knew that already. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Buzz_25th
10-26-2003, 06:57 PM
Let's get something straight here. You don't need to use old drivers to get the LB view. It works with the latest drivers too.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 06:59 PM
In fact, the problem is simple.

FB is a sim, a great sim.

What's the aim of a aviation sim on a PC: to recreate reality as much as it is possible, according to technical limitations of our current computers.

Can a human head turn to 360?? No.
Can a pilot look directly in his six, firmly strapped on a seat, with fuselage structure or armor obstructing his view? No.

So, if FB is judged as a SIMULATION of the real world, something that cannot be simulated in the real world has nothing to do in FB.

Simple as that and there are other sims available for phantasy players.

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 11:12 PM
Just for the record: If the full 6 view was avaliable for the pilots, why would they put mirrors in their bubble top P-47's?

http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/reincarnation.jpg (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
Are you damned? (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
<

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 12:37 AM
CHDT wrote:

- Can a human head turn to 360?? No.
- Can a pilot look directly in his six, firmly
- strapped on a seat, with fuselage structure or armor
- obstructing his view? No.

I would contend that your supposition is wrong but will differ to any pilots that flew in these planes during the circumstances of WWII.

I've read that many pilots did not strap themselves in or did so loosely as circumstances permitted. Personally, even with my seatbelt on in my car I can turn my body to look directly behind me so I would assume that people alive in the '40's were able to turn at their shoulders as well to look directly behind them.

Also, not simulated in FB is an interesting phenomenon called "peripheral vision" so whatever view method hairs we want to split in this discussion are pretty much void right off the bat so it's best we just not make any other assumptions into facts.

Obstructions? You mean the ones that are modelled in the cockpit view? Having tried the LB view I can say that they are still there using TIR so if you fly a P39 you happen to have a decent 180 view but in a 109 you get a good view of the back of the seat.

- So, if FB is judged as a SIMULATION of the real
- world, something that cannot be simulated in the
- real world has nothing to do in FB.
-
- Simple as that and there are other sims available
- for phantasy players.

I won't pick this apart simply because I see what you are getting at and I respect you enough not to get into semantics. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I just (personally) think you are using the wrong assumptions to base your conclusions.

As for the meat of the topic here, I agree that Oleg is responsible for deciding how he wants the view. I don't bother with LB view (it's a small advantage anyway although significant enough to pi$$ off those who don't have it/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) but don't mind playing against those who do, like Hristos. \
Trying to make an extra 5 or so degrees of rear view compare to an aimbot is really kind of silly if you think about it. That much extra advantage is easily negated by someone using say a hotas vs. a joystick for ease of on-hand controls. He11, after upgrading from an XP2000 to a XP2500(oc to ~2ghz) made more difference in my situational awareness than just about anything else short of the TIR and I'm already a better pilot for being able to see planes over cities without a slideshow.

Anyway, I could care less either way if it will stop hearing people make a mountain out of a molehill. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Just my opinion. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


<center>http://mywebpage.netscape.com/nyngje/charvel.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 04:09 AM
What are the newest drivers for trackIR that do not have the LB view?

I have 2.00, 2.01 and 2.11.

If it is not 2.01,then can someone give 'them' to me, please?

EDIT: BTW, Buzz, I was aware of this working with the latest software. I researched after I DL'ed the 2.11's. But, there is software, like the 2.01 that do not allow it. As asked about above, anything newer/better than 2.01 that does not allow the LB view?

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/26/0309:17PM by RealKill

Buzz_25th
10-27-2003, 04:49 AM
Don't think so. He took a vote, and everybody wanted it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 07:22 AM
At first, I was against LB view and thought developers should prevent this cheat. (But I would be using it until that happens, for reasons explained above /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ).

But then I turned 180 degrees back in my chair. I didn't lean, I'didnt stand up - I simply turned my torso and head as far as it would go. Guess what - I could see directly 180 degrees back.

In a situation of high adrenaline, where there is someone behind me about to fire cannon rounds at my plane you bet I'd be able to turn 180 degrees back. No matter how cramped the cockpit or how sore my neck would be the next day.

Only if my body and head were held in some kind of a vice or bodycast would I be able to limit my view as FB default view suggests. And even then, in life and death situation, I'd might even break the bodycast only to see the enemy behind me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

So, I could go either way, but I prefer LB view for everyone, as it seems more correct.

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 09:32 AM
"In a situation of high adrenaline, where there is someone behind me about to fire cannon rounds at my plane you bet I'd be able to turn 180 degrees back."

Not possible. If you turn to the left side to see to the rear, you won't be able to see what happens on the right side to the rear: the LB view is a simple joke/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif The pic of the B-47 shows exactly what you can see in real life: you can see the tail of your aircraft (not easy) but certainly not the other side.

I've experienced it myself making air-air pics; it's in fact extremely difficult to turn the neck and the shoulders to the rear when the aircraft makes heavy evolutions. And don't ever imagine to let your shoulder go freely under highG, the pilot in the front cockpit would scream at you immediately!

Frankly, I've difficulties to understand why some can't understand it that if you look to the right side side of the cockpit to the rear, you are not able to see the left side and viceversa /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

In fact, the LB view is like if the pilot of a Stuka for instance would have the same field of view like his gunner. A pure joke /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 10:28 AM
1. we can't fix not our own software.
2. We don't plan to remove the limit of rear view in our software.

So you all need to address that issue to TrackIR software developers.
I told it in the past and tell it now.



Slapp wrote:
- Hi Oleg,
-
- Just want to let you know that people with certain
- versions of the TrackIR software(or by performing a
- registry hack of some kind)can access the full
- unrestricted views in FB...
-
- I think that most of us would agree that we need to
- have this view available to all or to none; at the
- moment it is only available to TrackIR users, which
- does seems a little unfair.
-
-
-
- I have opened a thread at SimHQ on this subject here
- (rather long):
- <a
- href="http://oldsite.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/
- bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=004676"
- target=_blank>http://oldsite.simhq.com/simhq3/sims
- /boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=00
- 4676</a>
-
-
- A lot of interesting and positive comments have come
- across along with good input and general ideas on
- future viewing systems, including important points
- raised by real combat pilots.
-
-
- Thank you for listening
-
-
- S!ap
-
-
-
-
- PS, good luck on BOB
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:07 AM
Good news /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

T_O_A_D
10-27-2003, 11:09 AM
Oleg_Maddox wrote:
- 1. we can't fix not our own software.
- 2. We don't plan to remove the limit of rear view in
- our software.
-
- So you all need to address that issue to TrackIR
- software developers.
- I told it in the past and tell it now.


Ok guys thats it. Nuff said as far as I'm concernd. Its a dead Horse. Cats out of the bag! TIR made the mistake. They yanked it but like I say, Cats out of the bag. So they limit it, with new software to fix the problem, then some DORK goes and figures away around it, some how with registry or something. Heck I don't know I just have the latest TIR drivers,and stock deadzone in mine, anymore, Used to have LB but got rid of it with the latest drivers, I don't miss it much, if any.


Oh Thanks Oleg for the reply. Most appreciated.

If you cheat you cheat yourself! PERIOD

It is too bad that oleg can't give view for all, but He says he can't then thats it he can't.

<Left>
131st_VFW_CO_Toad (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/index.htm)

<Left>
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif MY Track IR Fix read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_ts&id=zwqtg)


<Center>http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/Mad_toad.jpg </a>

After eating an entire bull, a mountain
lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a
hunter came along and shot him...
The moral: when you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.



Message Edited on 10/27/0301:13PM by T_O_A_D

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 01:29 PM
This is too bad, only from the perspective that I hate to see bad press for Naturalpoint, they have done a great job in giving us a view system that 1C couldn't have hoped for in developing.

"They limit it, then some DORK goes and figures away around it, some how with registry or something"

But, from the comment above, this registry access doesn't need to be present, that was a choice my Naturalpoint that didn't need to be there.

What am I saying?

Take this complaint to Naturalpoint forums - not here - since Oleg does not wish to address it.



S!
609IAP_Recon

Forgotten Skies Virtual War
Forum: http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/forums/index.php
Website: http://www.forgottenskies.com
Visit 609IAP at http://takeoff.to/609IAP

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg

Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 02:13 PM
I agree I hope the linda blair gets removed permantly I sold my track ir months ago and Im missing the 360 alot, it is a unfairadvantage and hope somthing gets done where the files are encrypted in sfs and cannot be changed..

trackir 360 view
magic warp on purpose view "which oleg said he will possible consider a fix and have it announced at the top of the screen when someone hits it" Host takes care of the rest.
offset trim slider
instant prop stop turns

all these view programs also to change eyeheight, movement speed if edited the hat switch can look 360 like the linda blair are an unfair advantage to those who dont use them


<center>http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LS1.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 04:07 PM
Rgr that Oleg.

Thank you.

S!ap

Buzz_25th
10-27-2003, 05:51 PM
You guys are wrong again. It's not a hack that someone figured out. It's in the latest drivers from TrackIR. It's in the readme how to make the registry change. It takes 30 seconds to change just like we had to do in one of the patches in FB for online play. Remember that?

Another thing is it's not a 360 view. You don't spin around like Linda Blair did. You stop at 180 degrees. Just like you do in mouse view, but it goes a few degrees more.

Oleg says he's not goingto change anything, so it's up to TrackIR to make the changes. That will do no good, because everybody who wants to use it will just use drivers that allow the 180 view.

This is a dead horse.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 10:22 PM
Amazing thing is the biggest whiners and squads against it always seem to keep a copy around for 'testing'./i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:54 PM
Sorry. Mistake. Go to my next post.

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/27/0306:52PM by RealKill

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:58 PM
QUOTES by Oleg_Maddox...
"1. we can't fix not our own software."

Oleg, are you honestly saying you can find no solution to this? :|

"2. We don't plan to remove the limit of rear view in our software."

What about ADDING the view for players of the 'stock' game? OK. Fine. Do not limit. Expand!

Also, I never saw a thread like this that you responded to. So, I was not purposely harassing you.

-

In my opinion:

This is a bruise on IL-2 Forgotten Battles, and future sims by 1C if the same thing is going on. It pains me to say that, because I truly appreciate the work of you and your team.

-

About a poll...

If NP had one I did not see it. What? If I did not see it, you can bet other NP users did not see it either. So, really, how could they justify allowing this? How did they determine this was a majority of the users? I have been to their message boards in the past. I would be willing to bet the people posting in those boards are not the majority. I would guess, the people that voted in the poll were those people.

Even so, it is one thing to listen to your users and give your product a better design and/or more needed features, but to listen to them about allowing an unnecessary exploit, and at the very least, that is what it is, well, that just sucks. I really do not see how Natural Point could see that as the right thing to do.


EDIT: Clarification.

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/27/0305:27PM by RealKill

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 12:53 AM
It is rather easy to explain.

Naturalpoint is not a company of simmers. They don't know about IL2/FB's design decisions and couldn't care less about its history of development. People tend to forget that it was a device primarily for the handicapped people.

Yet they (NP) benefitted a great deal from Oleg implementing enhanced support into FB. Nobody can deny that the popularity of IL2 and its track recording was, what caused the trackIR to become popular among simmers in the first place. In the IL2 days, it was only the IL2 related boards where you could find info about the trackIR. I've seen it happen because i was one of the first, if not THE first ever to use trackIR in IL2.

I understand NP's reasons well. But it was totally out of line to put up a poll on their Naturalpoint site and let trackIR users decide about putting the LB view in. Went completely against any design decision in IL2 and FB. No 3rd party developer would have the right to decide about those things.

Ofcourse NP wants to have unlimited view restrictions for games/sims that don't have the same view restrictions as FB.
But they shoulda thought of that well beforehand.
Every dedicated IL2 player would have immediately realized that. Just proves that Naturalpoint does not have a history in flightsimming.

It's a great product they have, but the way they went about things WRT the LB view was extremely clumsy. They're not going to fix it. They would prolly say that Oleg should fix it.

So we may conclude that it isn't going to be fixed. Ever.
And keeping the design decisions of IL2/FB in mind, i find that unfortunate. Status quo: LB view will always remain a cheat in FB.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 01:02 AM
So, the bruise becomes an open wound and festers into a boil. Hopefully it gets healed and does not become a lasting scar.


EDIT: I remember seeing a review somewhere, a looong time ago, where someone was complaining about this. I did not give it much weight... until now. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

EDIT: Dnmy, I knew about the Tir origins. Not an issue. I am sure they knew what was going on when they reallowed the view. I would call it simple stupidity on their part.

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/27/03 06:08PM by RealKill

Message Edited on 10/27/0306:54PM by RealKill

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 01:15 AM
Like you said it is a stain on IL2/FB.

Simmers can always argue, agree or disagree about design decisions, but in the end the only one to decide should be the gamedeveloper. That's been clear from IL2's earliest development on.

Yet, this time it was left up to (some) trackIR users to decide on something for trackIR users ONLY, concerning FB.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 01:33 AM
Hristos, That's unfair, my joystick doesn't have programable buttons/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Anyone hear of peripheral vision? With Peripheral vision, when you look to your six, you are actually able to see further because of it... Is being able to actually see a cheat?

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 02:23 AM
It is a cheat because only trackIR users have it.
It wouldn't have been a cheat if everybody had it. Or no one had it.

It is furthermore a cheat because it went against the design decisions in FB. It was something not decided by Oleg but by trackIR users FOR trackIR users. That is why it is a cheat.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 06:57 AM
Wow....I have had a TIR for 6 months now. I have never had the Linda Blair view. I only get what you get with the mouse. I don't see how thats a cheat.

T_O_A_D
10-28-2003, 08:34 AM
IV_JG51_Swine wrote:
- Wow....I have had a TIR for 6 months now. I have
- never had the Linda Blair view. I only get what you
- get with the mouse. I don't see how thats a cheat.
-
Then don't worry about it! You are not missing out on much by not having it. I used to have it since mine came with drivers that had it available. But I have updated drivers to the latest, and didn't do whats in the readme. I like it just fine without it. And I feel real good when I get someone with out Cheating in their eyes.

<Left>
131st_VFW_CO_Toad (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/index.htm)

<Left>
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif MY Track IR Fix read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_ts&id=zwqtg)


<Center>http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/Mad_toad.jpg </a>

After eating an entire bull, a mountain
lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a
hunter came along and shot him...
The moral: when you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 10:40 AM
Well, this is good for me. I figured out what was going on with the new drivers, so I installed them. T_O_A_D, mine came with 2.00, also. But, like I said, I have not even used my Tir. Anyway, I have better software without the 'whatever it is'. I am glad they improved some things. I really did not like the 2.00 and its 'features' (or rather, lack of them).

(Damn, all this time I have had this thing and not used it, now a better one is coming out.)

I am still trying to find good settings for myself. I built a 'device' to put on top of my head phones, but I am going to rebuild it. Once I do that, I will continue playing with settings.

Swine, myself, and I am sure some others, would appreciate if you did not use it. It just is not fair. T_O_A_D is playing it down though, for obviouse reasons, but still, not right to use it in IL-2.

After doing as much research on this issue as I believe is needed, I still think a solution lays on Oleg's shoulders.

EDIT: *

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/28/0303:44AM by RealKill

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 11:44 AM
IV_JG51_Swine wrote:
- Wow....I have had a TIR for 6 months now. I have
- never had the Linda Blair view. I only get what you
- get with the mouse. I don't see how thats a cheat.

You may have missed the development history of the trackIR enhanced mode being implemented in FB. Suffice to say that the trackIR software allows the LB six view via a secret registry setting.

As mentioned before, it is FOR trackIR users ONLY. In fact TrackIR users only decided it should be implemented for FB for trackIR users only, totally ignoring Oleg's original design decisions. That's why it's a cheat.

(i use a trackIR myself, but i've been strongly in favour of equal viewing restrictions for everybody)



Message Edited on 10/28/0311:58AM by Dnmy

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 02:12 PM
Ok...I was unfamliliar with the hack you guys are talking about.
I would bring one other issue up to you guys and that is that the system is not the easiest to use and takes a LONG time to even get somewhat proficient with. There are many times when I use my hat swith over the TIR, especially in dogfights. For me it really shines when I have to formation fly with my squad. Thats not he easiest thing to do. I guess my point here is that I really don't think its as big of a cheat as you guys think when you fighting. However, if there is a way to hack into the system and give yourself a better view then I believe that should be fixed. Trust me, I don't want any unfair advantage here. I fly with a squad that treats fairness and honor as the number 1 priority, period.

The best guys in my squad don't use TIR, they are hat switchers.

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 09:16 PM
I personaly think that TrackIR is the best add-on you can buy for a flight sim as it adds a reality to the game like nothing else can. okay it cost 99.00 it aint cheap but it has transformed my IL-2 and FB experiance, and takes it to another level.

I use TIR all the time and in its standard form, but then I only fly with external during squad practice sessions to observe squad mates after I'm dead, and dont use it to check my 6 or defy the Gforce black out. Neither do I use Padlock, or "Wonder Woman view" HUD. All of those are in game features but in my way of thinking they are all cheats, but do help some to gain enjoyment from this great sim whilst climbing the learning curve.

It realy has p....d me off to think that someone, be it naturalpiont or an other has done this 180x180 trick and ruined the reputation of such a great device, just so they may stand a better chance than another. Where's the honour.

ZULU_UK

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 10:50 PM
Are you sure, Oleg?

http://oldsite.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=004676;p=4

Hello:

Wow, you guys know how to carry on an argument.

- The old software is out, nothing you can do about this at all.

- Most all users want the extra view, they can get it with the old software anyway, so do you want us to deprive them of upgrades? That is not our job.

- Every other software developer has implemented the viewing correctly, including LO-MAC. It is not hard to put the viewing variables in the right location and have them be limited to the mouse view. 30min max fix.

- Our SDK, which we give to everyone, is setup for all viewing angles, as it should be. The developer can choose to limit it anyway they want.

- We are a tool for view control, so we allow view control.

--------------------
Jim
www.naturalpoint.com (http://www.naturalpoint.com)


7./JG26_HarryM

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 12:32 AM
What Harry said.

CHDT: I'm wondering if you were born with tunnel vision? Ever back up in your car?

DNMY: Read the above post. It's not up to them to decide what's a cheat or not, clearly this rests on Oleg's shoulders and he doesn't feel it's that big of a deal.

I prefer the restricted views but only because it feels unnatural to bend my neck backwards to look upside down, and I'm more into the immersion than trying to wring every last drop of advantage for online points.

This whole argument is so out of hand it is laughably silly when put in perspective. Everybody has some sort of advantage over someone else in FB. He11, I just upgraded an XP2000 to an overclocked 2500+ and the lack of framerate stutter over the cities has improved my SA tenfold. Some folks are able to access functions without reaching for the keyboard. So until someone hacks the flight models we should count our lucky stars this game is as secure as it is and not some kiddie Counterstrike mod.


<center>http://mywebpage.netscape.com/nyngje/charvel.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 12:51 AM
Dnmy wrote:

- You may have missed the development history of the
- trackIR enhanced mode being implemented in FB.
- Suffice to say that the trackIR software allows the
- LB six view via a secret registry setting.
-


Dude, it's in the freaken read me file, what's so secret about that?

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 12:53 AM
Although splitting hairs, the one thing I do agree with dnme is that this "feature" should be available to all; not just those with TrackIR.

If it could be added as a "difficulty" setting, or "server option" then great. No big deal.

In real life, strapped in or not, the one thing this game can never model is peripheral vision.

Rotate Torso
Rotate Neck
Eyes fully "rotated"

Peripheral vision will pick up 190 degrees in either direction from front and center.

TEST:

Place 1 yellow post it directly behind you. Or, heck, put it behind your LEFT shoulder.

Hold your shoulders against a chair if you like, have somone strap you in.

Try to see the post it by turning to your RIGHT!

You will ALWAYS be able to see the post it.

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 12:54 AM
It was not up to them (NP) to decide to put up a poll either.

Basically they showed that even as 3rd pary, they felt they had the right to bypass Oleg's design decisions and let their customers decide what they wanted to have in FB specifically.

It may work that way with CFS series sims, but IL2 and FB were never designed that way.



/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 12:57 AM
Uhmm, applying that same principle, who designated you to be able to tell them what they can and can't do? What a joke, dude you got issues.

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 01:00 AM
"CHDT: I'm wondering if you were born with tunnel vision? Ever back up in your car?"


Funny /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

No, frankly, believe me, when I was strapped on the backseat of a F-5F for instance and when I was looking left to the rear, I couldn't see what happened on the right side. It was possible to see the tail, but not what's on the opposite side. The B-47 pic shows exactly what is possible to see.

And when the pilot was searching for an incoming aircraft from the rear, he rolled the aircraft, making small turns also to look behind, simply because it is NOT possible to have a six view when strapped on the seat of a combat aircraft.

And it was exactly the same thing for the WWII fighter pilots who were told in a combat aerea never to fly straight, because when flying straight they could NOT see what was coming from behind.

I don't understand why this fact doesn't seem more obvious to some people!

As a conclusion, the rear views in FB look pretty realistic, at least to me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 01:31 AM
Have a look here for instance:

http://luthier.stormloader.com/SFTacticsI.htm


"Cockpit visibility is one of the Me-109's main weaknesses. It is not without reason that this plane is considered one of the "blindest" fighters. Cockpit is very cramped, canopy cannot be opened in flight and the armored headrest takes a lot of space. It is incredibly difficult for the pilot to see directly behind and below him. Me-109 pilots cannot see an attacker coming in from 6 o'clock low."


Frankly, how can you believe that a Stuka pilot for instance can have the same field of view like his gunner /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 02:20 AM
Uhmm dude,

I ain't got no issues, just principles. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

You otoh seem to have issues with me instead.
But that's your problem, not mine /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BfHeFwMe wrote:
- Uhmm, applying that same principle, who designated
- you to be able to tell them what they can and can't
- do? What a joke, dude you got issues.




/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 05:09 AM
CHDT wrote:
- Have a look here for instance:
-
- <a
- href="http://luthier.stormloader.com/SFTacticsI.htm"
- target=_blank>http://luthier.stormloader.com/SFTac
- ticsI.htm</a>
-
-
-
- "Cockpit visibility is one of the Me-109's main
- weaknesses. It is not without reason that this plane
- is considered one of the "blindest" fighters.
- Cockpit is very cramped, canopy cannot be opened in
- flight and the armored headrest takes a lot of
- space. It is incredibly difficult for the pilot to
- see directly behind and below him. Me-109 pilots
- cannot see an attacker coming in from 6 o'clock
- low."
-

Ok, name me any plane that can see an attacker coming in at LOW six? And I'm not sure if you are aware of this but even LB view won't let you see through the back seat of a 109 so that paragraph has nothing to do with what we're talking about. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

As for your experience in the plane, keep in mind you were strapped in for safety as a passenger. In WWII I've read many accounts of pilots keeping their harnesses loose, or the cockpits open to smoke a cigar on the way back from a mission! Galland even had an ashtray installed in his 109! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Either way, with peripheral vision and a turn of the shoulders you can see directly out the back. How well, or for how long can be argued till the cows come home. My point really is that the degree of "(un)fairness" is no more relative than many other factors already in the game that give an advantage of one player over the other.

It's time to stop whining about it and start flying. If you shoot down someone with a few extra degrees of view feel free to pat yourself on the back. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

A more important issue (imho) is the fact that you can HEAR someone coming up on your six anyway.

cheers! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- Frankly, how can you believe that a Stuka pilot for
- instance can have the same field of view like his
- gunner /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- Cheers,
-
-




<center>http://mywebpage.netscape.com/nyngje/charvel.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 05:31 AM
I just modified the registry to get the "LB" view. I only play off line so I guess I am cheating the AI.

I think what is needed is a compromise. The TrackIR and hat switch views should be the same. The "LB" view is now about 10 or 20 degrees too much but the standard view is too restricted. I saw a post here or at SIMHQ's with a good example of what the view to the rear should look like.

I rode a bike 400 miles in heavy rain Sunday (great fun) and even an old man like me can turn around. As mentioned by others, WWII pilots usually kept straps loose so they could pivot. Many accounts of tighten belts (early U.S. naval planes only had seatbelts) before ditching.

So I would like to see it fixed so views are the same for both groups and the view to the rear is not a full 360 but more like 340. From my chair I can see directly behind me by only rotating my neck. I think I have excellent peripheral vision as I frequently see things coming at me (on the road) that others don't see and I have dodged a few disasters. My depth perception however is only average.

If I were playing online, I would disable the LB view. I think it is more realistic than the standard view but the field of view is too great.

Michael

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 05:48 AM
Prik, you post was reasonable until this:
"This whole argument is so out of hand it is laughably silly when put in perspective."

Out of hand? Hardly. You can post that sentence in a couple of other threads, but it really does not fit here.

Simple as possible...

<font size="2" color="lime">the same views for ALL!</font>

If anyone says that is unreasonable, then obviously that would be a TrackIR user.

Following QUOTES by Harry_M = Jim, www.naturalpoint.com (http://www.naturalpoint.com)

"Wow, you guys know how to carry on an argument."

No, argument. Read the green above. <s>(In case you have missed that in the many posts in which it was mentioned.)</s>

"The old software is out, nothing you can do about this at all."

No. Nothing we can do about that. <s>So, non-TrackIR users can just screw themselves? (NOTE: You set the tone of your post with your very first "Wow" sentence.</s>

"Most all users want the extra view, ..."

How did you deterrmine most users want it?

"... they can get it with the old software anyway, so do you want us to deprive them of upgrades? That is not our job."

Yes, again, OLD software. Well, was that a mistake on NP's part in regards to IL-2? - No, give us upgrades. The software that came with mine pretty much sucked. But, again, what's the deal with the added view in IL-2? I cannot think of anyone in the thread that should be able to clearly answer that but you. Unless, there is a more knowledgeable person from your company that would like to come in here and answer.

-

Are people continually forgetting what is really the main point about things like this? A truly good sim experience? People cannot have that when certain users are privy to advantages the others do not have. That is why we try and have decent discussions about FM, cockpits, etc.

EDIT: Before anyone comes in here with their, I guess I cannot have rudder pedals, a Cougar, 5GHz OC'ed system, etc., just don't. 'You' know very well what I am talking about.

-

Jim, your post reeks of 'in your face, we do what we do, too bad if you don't like it'. Tell me, am I reading you wrong? Anyway, that was my first thought.

But, please, continue to post. I would appreciate, as I am sure many others would, if you gave those that care a better understanding of 'what happened', and 'what's going on', from your companies point of view.

EDIT: ( ^ Above.)
EDIT: STRIKE

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/28/03 10:52PM by RealKill

Message Edited on 10/28/0311:53PM by RealKill

T_O_A_D
10-29-2003, 06:35 AM
Hey I thought I'd just drop back in again LOL

Same crowd.

But if by chance there is some in here that havent seen the LB view here is a link of a thread I posted in my previous name.

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zdzav

LB in cockpit mode is only an advantage in a few planes. Learn wich ones they are, Identify them before you attack. Then take away his advantage if he is a cheater.

Yes I agree Same for all.

<Left>
131st_VFW_CO_Toad (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/index.htm)

<Left>
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif MY Track IR Fix read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_ts&id=zwqtg)


<Center>http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/Mad_toad.jpg </a>

After eating an entire bull, a mountain
lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a
hunter came along and shot him...
The moral: when you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 07:08 AM
Just throw it in the trash and never look back, crybabies.

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 07:16 AM
BfHeFwMe wrote:
- Just throw it in the trash and never look back,
- crybabies.


BfHeFwMe,

I have a better idea. You buy mine for full price and I will gladly part with it. Other than that, throw your TROLL self in the trash. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Now, shooo fly!

EDIT: Added tongue smiley so hopefully the TROLL would not get his feelings hurt.

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/29/0312:40AM by RealKill

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 07:56 AM
Me thinks it is the TrackIR envy !



How's that for a troll ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 09:40 AM
IV_JG51_Swine wrote:
- Ok...I was unfamliliar with the hack you guys are
- talking about.
- I would bring one other issue up to you guys and
- that is that the system is not the easiest to use
- and takes a LONG time to even get somewhat
- proficient with. There are many times when I use my
- hat swith over the TIR, especially in dogfights.
- For me it really shines when I have to formation fly
- with my squad. Thats not he easiest thing to do. I
- guess my point here is that I really don't think its
- as big of a cheat as you guys think when you
- fighting. However, if there is a way to hack into
- the system and give yourself a better view then I
- believe that should be fixed. Trust me, I don't
- want any unfair advantage here. I fly with a squad
- that treats fairness and honor as the number 1
- priority, period.
-
- The best guys in my squad don't use TIR, they are
- hat switchers.

All fine and dandy,

but until you have actually tried the LB view you can't really fathom what a difference it makes. And be sure that it does make a difference. Or otherwise the Linda Blair pilots that took part in the Naturalpoint poll wouldn't have voted in favour of the cheat for trackIR users only /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

FWIW i used the hatswitch solely as well, before switching to the trackIR. And i made the switch more than 3 years ago. Ever since, i've used the trackIR solely, especially in dogfights. Believe me, if you're not yet comfy, it's going to be as natural as using a hatswitch. 3 years is exaggerating it, but give it some time./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 09:50 AM
"Either way, with peripheral vision and a turn of the shoulders you can see directly out the back."


Sorry, but it's not true. Just an example, when I was photographing an aircraft in the 3/4 rear left or right area, I let my shoulders free in stabilized flying (forbidden to do that in evolutions), but even in these conditions it was not possible to see on the other side.

And in aerobatic evolutions, whith the shoulders firmly fixed, I couldn't keep my camera directly against my head, but I had to hold it only firmly with one hand while I could only use the end of my fingers for the other hand. Why? Because it was impossible to turn me directly in front of the aircraft whith strapped shoulders. So forget it to be able to see also in the opposite side. Just let me add that in an aicraft making aerobatics at high speed, you must be strapped VERY hard with no movement possibilities for your body: in fact, you can only move your head and your neck, but it's a real pain. So to imagine you can rotate your head at 360 degrees like a radar is a joke /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

So, in combat, what a pilot is doing for looking what's coming from low behind: he simply rolls his aircraft making gentle turns. It was true in WWII, it's still true today.



" How well, or for how long can be argued till the cows come home. My point really is that the degree of "(un)fairness" is no more relative than many other factors already in the game that give an advantage of one player over the other."


I don't care about fairness, even if I'm disadvantaged. As FB is a sim, I do want to keep it as realistic as possible. A pilot would never have the same field of view like a tail gunner!

Btw, I believe that Oleg has also a pilot licence and that he flies in aircrafts like Yak-18, so I'm sure he knows perfectly what a pilot on a seat can see or not.

Cheers,







Message Edited on 10/29/0308:51AM by CHDT

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 01:25 PM
CHDT, you seem to be in passenger's frame of mind: "...this is forbidden...this I can't do....extinguish your cigarettes..."

If you fly the plane in combat, you are the one who makes the rules. If you're about to do aerobatics, you fasten your harnesses. If you're about to have good SA, you let them lose a little, so you can look around.

If you lose the straps for whatever reasons, you know how much aerobatics you would do. Remember, it is you flying the plane, not someone else.

If you fly the plane and look back, you don't do -3g at the same time, agreed ?

I can look 180 degrees back from my chair, peripheral vision gives me even more. I CAN see more than 180 degrees when turning back in my chair. If there was a possible La 5FN behind me, you bet I'd be twisting every joint in my spine and neck to see where it is. Forget the safety rules, this is a life and death situation.

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 01:42 PM
" Forget the safety rules"


I know the case of a Pilatus Porter pilot who flew not firmly strapped, without an helmet during an heavy fohn tempest over the Alps: result, his head knocked hard on the plexi, got unconscious, four dead people!

Never, never forget safety rules!

And if you tell me it's logic for you that a pilot can have the same field of view like his gunner, ok, I don't know what I can say more /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 02:03 PM
there are no safety rules in combat, that's what I'm trying to say

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 04:22 PM
Realkill: Did you read my posts? I DO agree that the view should be available to all.

CHDT: Let's just agree to disagree dude. As for the "6" view thing don't you think that reply was kind of silly? Of course if you move your plane you can check low six. What kind of argument is that?

cheers


<center>http://mywebpage.netscape.com/nyngje/charvel.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 06:44 PM
PriK wrote:
- Realkill: Did you read my posts?

Uh, Prik, did you read mine? (If you did, you read more into what I wrote to you than was there.)

RealKill wrote:
- Prik, you post was reasonable until this:
- "This whole argument is so out of hand it is
- laughably silly when put in perspective."
-
- Out of hand? Hardly. You can post that sentence in
- a couple of other threads, but it really does not
- fit here.

This discussion (argument, as you say) is not out of hand. You are exagerating. I did not comment at all about your stance on the subject itself. You simply misunderstood me and concluded some of what was written after that was directed at you. But, no problem.

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 07:55 PM
Realkill, I'm not Jim, so not sure if he saw your post. I'd recommend posting over at the NP forums if it bothers you that much. His point seemed to be that M:1C ignored the specifications in the software developer kit (which other developers seem to not have a problem following) which requires the developer put the limits in the game. NP then too quickly responded with it's imperfect solution, but the rest is history as the old TIR software is readily available if you want it. So now it is up to M:1C to put the limits in the game which is the way it should have been done in the first place.

7./JG26_HarryM

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 03:33 AM
Realkill: Are we going to argue now about what you and I consider "out of hand"? Should we have lawyers come up with definitions for us so one won't misunderstand the nuances of what the other is saying? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Cheers bro, but when it comes down to the semantics of interpreting what we think someone else means by what they type, I pretty much consider that my cue to leave the topic.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


<center>http://mywebpage.netscape.com/nyngje/charvel.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 07:42 AM
Harry_M,
Oh, you cut and pasted. I did not catch that. Sorry. It must have come from 'that' thread, then? OK. - I do not argue with him, you, or anyone else on who has the final burden of fixing this. (I mentioned that earlier.) I imagine part of what is NP's stand is that their software would be used for other applications, like LOMAC, thus the allowed views. I did want to be clear on that, though, and hear it from the horses mouth. But, really, no need. Again, IMO, from what I can gather, it is still on Oleg's shoulders. - In regards to posting at NP, from what Jim wrote, I really see no point. - Harry, I went back and read your post. Heh, I really must have been sleepy on that one. (I am in CST.)

Prik, /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Hey, you wrote an opinion. I wrote one, also. Again, it is apparent that part of what I wrote to jim, you mistook as me writing to you. I can see why. Next time I will make sure I 'separate' better. I said, "no problem". You want to make a problem out of it? Put'em up! :<

No, sir. No lawyers. (No insult to the very few, good lawyers out there.) Also, we do not have to argue about whether this discussion is out of hand. Simply, you are wrong. No argument needed. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif (At least in this thread, anyway.) So, keep your lawyers for when you really need them!

Oh, and... BYE! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <font size="2" color="silver">(No, stick around.)</font>

-

I sure do not want this thread to turn into garbage. It is a valid thread topic. Sooo, I just need to address Oleg one more time.

-

Oleg,

You have a way better understanding of my language than I have of yours. So, no insult here.

"can't"

to me means...

cannot (can not)
not able to.

So, are you saying, you...

will not
refuse to

fix the view problem that we are discussing, in regards to 3rd party software and/or hardware?

Is there some coding issue that would make this too difficult?

How does the view problem in IL-2 FB become Natural Points problem? (Or, anyone else's, for that matter?)

If it is as easy to fix as Jim, from Natural Point, says, then I do not understand. Unless, Jim is *shudder* lying? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

If you see my posts as harrassing you, then I apologize. That is not my intent. Thus, this is my last word on this. Please, clarify.

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 03:01 PM
If this is true then it's indeed shocking.

Very negligent from Maddox &Co...

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 03:24 PM
How in the world is something this trivial shocking ?

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 04:25 PM
Dnmy,

That is the same thing I was trying to explain to Thera at SimHQ. View stops have to be enforced at the code level. That leaves only two choices...either 1C adds the stops or 1C pulls them, but there is nothing for NP to do.

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 04:45 PM
I understand that very well Sensei,

and i never contested what you wrote there either.
I hate to admit it, but until it's fixed, the LB view for trackIR users only, will remain a cheat.

After all the trouble Oleg & Co went through to prevent cheating as much as possible in his sims, they've basically allowed a "backdoor" cheat in. Which, if i'm to believe the above post, could be fixed in a simple way.

Shocking is maybe not the right word, but if the above post is true, then it is not very consistent from Maddox games, to say the least. Because they DID limit the mouseview and the hatviews the same.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 06:11 PM
"will remain a cheat"

Not a cheat, dude. But if you want to keep touting it as one, that's fine by me.

It can't be a cheat as there's no manipulation of base code.
You can't call it an exploit because it's a fact in the code of the GAME that Oleg and Company are responsible for.

Is it unfair? Well... No... It's just a choice that 1C's development has failed to address.

Is it crappy that this option is not available to all? YES! I agree with you there.

But you need to spend this energy with the United Way or something. All you're doing is whittling away any credibility you have by continuing to call people that have TrackIR users cheaters.

You are seriously failing to grasp this issue. You're having difficulty in attributing where the responsibility lies, and where it does not lie.

You cannot blame the user of TrackIR if 1C has failed to implement the DLL properly.

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 07:00 PM
Throw in in the trash and never look back again, than prepare to be annihilated.


http://battlestarfanclub.com/battlestar/photos/newbsg16.jpg


Track'irs are comming for you.

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 11:00 PM
Hold on,

i'm not saying ALL trackIR users are cheating.

Just the ones who play online and use the LB view in FB are cheating. And they know it too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 11:04 PM
Thruth be said, TrackIR is limited in FB code. You can't turn more than 180 degrees in any direction. Given the nature of how TrackIR works, this is clearly a limit made in FB itself. Why it is more generous than mouse view is beyond me.

But I enjoy it. Is it a great advantage ? Not really, as I don't feel like Sauron waving his mace with the ring on. Is it exploitable ? Definitely.

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 01:44 AM
I've used it and liked it, but only when the particular plane I'm flying has adequate rear view. The comment was made that the P-39 allows the user to see straight over his tail...not true. This only happens when you fly the P-39 N1. The others only allow you to see your seat back. Altogether there are only about 5 or 6 planes that give decent 6 view and many pilots never fly them anyway.

I could argue both sides of this argument, but will say the same thing others have said. If you choose to use it, then use it. TrackIR users still make up the vast minority of online pilots and many aren't very good. I'd also wager that many of them don't have "Linda Blair" view enabled. (Yes, I said enabled!) The NaturalPoint forums describe how to enable it on the first page of their forum! A small percentage of a small percentage doesn't make much difference in the larger scheme of things.

Does it give an advantage?...yes, marginally. Can it swing the advantage in a fight? I seriously doubt it.

period.

http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 01:15 PM
and let's not forget the Fw 190 foward view ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 07:15 PM
Thunderbolt56 wrote:

- Does it give an advantage?...yes, marginally. Can it
- swing the advantage in a fight? I seriously doubt
- it.

One thing is 100% certain.

If you don't have the advantages of the LB view (i.e. for the non trackIR user), you're NEVER going to be able to use those added advantages anyhow.

The LB view advantages are simply ruled out for non trackIR users, yet they're readily available for any trackIR user who can acknowledge these advantages and wants to exploit them.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 07:52 PM
I understand your point Dnmy and as I said before I could argue the point, but it's just not a big enough issue and, I think, the analogy has already been made in regards to other hardware (most of it costing more than the $100 USD for a TrackIR!). Is it unfair for me to use a $250 USD CH HOTAS setup? Is it unfair for me to have/use a 3.0Ghz P4? or faster RAM? How about the advantages of a 22" monitor?

Oleg has said (and I agree) 1:C doesn't plan on doing anything more about it....so if it's that big an issue for you, or anyone else, (no disrespect intended) your only real recourse is to get one yourself and use it...or not.





http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 02:12 AM
I always like to read comments like, "you should get one"

See, i have a trackIR /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I've been using one for more than 3 years in combat flight sims now.

I don't complain because i don't like the LB view. I just dislike the fact that it's a trackIR ONLY thing. This is what makes it unfair. You can have a top end HOTAS but without the trackIR you're never going to benefit from the advantages that the LB view offers. And i'll say this, if i could make a choice between a simple stick and the trackIR or a HOTAS without the trackIR, i'd take the simple stick option with trackIR any day.

If Oleg can't fix it, the consequence is ofcourse that the LB view will then remain a cheat vs the non trackIR users.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 03:03 AM
Not a cheat.
Can't be a cheat.
Native to IL2:FB.
Native to existing code.
DLL hasn't changed after submission to Oleg.
1C's responsibility.
They aren't going to change it.
Deal with it.

I'm going to be right here every step you take, man. Until you stop calling it a cheat.

"This is what makes it unfair."

I AGREE. But take it up with Oleg and leave us alone about it. We're sick of correcting you.

XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 03:08 AM
In FB it's a bug. Not a feature.

Using the LB view is exploiting the bug, ergo a cheat /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I can deal with it that it's considered a cheat, but can you?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 04:55 AM
At this point it becomes a philisophical debate about "moral self-policing"...highly unlikely when there's nobody actually in the room watching you. The diverse age, demographics and attitudes prevelant in this forum and in FB in general won't allow it to come to fruition.

One of the only scenarios I know where a participant calls a penalty on himself is golf. Don't expect that type of "character" and you won't be disappionted.

For the most part I agree with Hristos: Use it if you like, don't use if you don't. Whine about those that do just like those who whine about the pilots who fly only the "noob" planes. I have TrackIR and use this view on occassion...sometimes I don't. I don't see the big deal. It's not flight-sim-nirvana.

Either way, a three page thread about something as trivial as this is of concern to me. i'll continue lurking and reading with amusement, but I've said all I wish to say about this subject. (not that anyone cares. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif )



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg