PDA

View Full Version : BoB; What to Expect and Historical Stats



Pirschjaeger
02-26-2008, 12:20 PM
I don't know if there's another thread like what I hope to accomplish with this one.

Although I've been here for years I don't know much about the Battle of Britain. Sooner or later Oleg's BoB will be released and the patches will start rolling out. I expect that Oleg will deliver something that brings a new level of historical accuracy and immersion to our monitors. In Oleg we trust.

What I would like to achieve in this thread is a level unbiased discussion that focuses on historical facts and statistics, rather than guess work and opinions.

Regarding fighters and AFAIK, there were only 4 fighters involved:

Bf109 variants, possibly Fw190a, Hurricanes, and Spitfires. I'm not sure it the early p51s were involved. What I would like to know is (A) Which fighters were involved, including variants, and (B) how many of each.

I know many of you know the exact numbers, so I'll ask here.

Fritz

DuxCorvan
02-26-2008, 01:21 PM
Late Summer 1940.

No Fw 190s. No P-51s (No US stuff yet.)

Main fighter types:

RAF:
- Spitfire Mk.I, Mk.IA, Mk. II
- Hurricane Mk.I (three-bladed version--->Main type in use by the RAF.
- Defiant (In secondary roles)
- Gladiator, Roc, Skua, Martlet (Second or third line of defense, not at all or very rarely used).

Luftwaffe:
- Bf 109 E-1, E-3, early E-4 (E-3 main LW type)
- Bf 110 C
- /B versions of both
- Some captured or Vichy French stuff (very rarely used in this scenario)

Reggia Aeronautica:
- Fiat CR.32 and G.50 (Rare, secondary roles)

Kurfurst__
02-26-2008, 01:29 PM
109 types - actually E-1/E-4 were the most common:

Bf 109E type strenght in the West, 31 August 1940 (data for JG 77 is missing, so the figures are just 95% complete)

E1 375
E3 125
E4 339
E7 32
Total : 871
(Note E-sumthin/N types with the 601N engine/100 octane fuel are not listed. By July there were One Wing ie. 3 Squadrons equipped with them.)

Of the 110s I have less info, but I understand the 110C types were very similiar; 3 Wings of them had the 601N poweed versions by July.

A couple of more well known aces like Moelders were the first to lay their hands on the first couple of Bf 109Fs in October 1940.

JG53Frankyboy
02-26-2008, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Late Summer 1940.

No Fw 190s. No P-51s (No US stuff yet.)

Main fighter types:

RAF:
- Spitfire Mk.I, Mk.IA, Mk. II
- Hurricane Mk.I (three-bladed version--->Main type in use by the RAF.
- Defiant (In secondary roles)
- Gladiator, Roc, Skua, Martlet (Second or third line of defense, not at all or very rarely used).

Luftwaffe:
- Bf 109 E-1, E-3, early E-4 (E-3 main LW type)
- Bf 110 C
- /B versions of both
- Some captured or Vichy French stuff (very rarely used in this scenario)

Reggia Aeronautica:
- Fiat CR.32 and G.50 (Rare, secondary roles)

the italians had Cr.42 and G.50
http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/falco_bob.htm (http://www.dalnet.se/%7Esurfcity/falco_bob.htm)

the RAF got also Hurricane IIa (with the two speed supercharger driven Merlin XX) in 1940

the Bf110s there were also Ds (with "Dackelbauch" fuselage tank, needed for operations from Norway, and D fighterbombers - espacially the ErprGrp 210 had D-0/B ) , and the ErprGrp210 used also the MK101 armed Bf110C-6........


109 units during BoB:
I,II,III/JG2
I,II,III/JG3
I,II,III/JG26
I,II,III/JG27
I,II,III/JG51
I,II,III/JG52
I,II,III/JG53
I,II,III/JG54
I(J)/LG2
II(Schl)/LG2
3./Erp.Grp 210

110 units during BoB:
I,II,III/ZG26
I,II,III/ZG76 (I. in Norway)
I,II/ZG2
V(Z)/LG1
+
1.&2. /Erp.Grp 210

thefruitbat
02-26-2008, 01:48 PM
Kurfusrt, a couple of questions,

first what ere the main differences between the diff emils,

and secondly, weren't there many refits and retro fitting done in the field, and how does this affect the figures?

cheers fruitbat

joeap
02-26-2008, 01:53 PM
Thanks for the info Dux, Kurfurst and JG53Frankyboy! Yea we'll need info from you Kurfy for the 109s...but are there any sites on the German bombers, types and units??

We of course need to hear about the RAF, and also about Bomber Command who were busy in 1940 as well.

JG53Frankyboy
02-26-2008, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
Kurfusrt, a couple of questions,

first what ere the main differences between the diff emils,

and secondly, weren't there many refits and retro fitting done in the field, and how does this affect the figures?

cheers fruitbat

E-1 , MG17 in the wings
E-3 , MG-FF in the wings
E-4 , MG-FF/M in the wings
E-7 , able to carry a droptank

if an E-3 was retrofitted with MG-FF/M, it simply became an E-4..............

-/B ment to be able to carry a bomb
-/N ment the plane was engined by a DB601N (instead of a 601A-1 or 601Aa)

wich canopy , frontwindow armour yes or no, head armour yes or no - all this does not tell anything of the variant http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mr_Zooly
02-26-2008, 01:54 PM
I'm sure a few 109d models flew also.

look here

http://www.battle-of-britain.com/

thefruitbat
02-26-2008, 01:56 PM
cheers JG53Frankyboy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

fruitbat

thefruitbat
02-26-2008, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Mr_Zooly:
I'm sure a few 109d models flew also.

look here

http://www.battle-of-britain.com/

Some d's flew in/against Poland, but not BoB if i recall correct.

fruitbat

JG53Frankyboy
02-26-2008, 02:02 PM
indeed, the fighting 109 force at the channel was till october 1940 a pure Emil one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kurfurst__
02-26-2008, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
Kurfusrt, a couple of questions,

first what ere the main differences between the diff emils,

and secondly, weren't there many refits and retro fitting done in the field, and how does this affect the figures?

cheers fruitbat

Frankyboy covered the first part already; as to retrofit, the (not sufficient for such quick changeover) new production E-4 figures suggest that the sudden appearance of the E-4 and disappearance of the E-3 was simply E-3s becoming E-4s (indeed the difference is miniscule, some parts replaced within the MG FF to enable it to fire the lighter Mine shells). The number of 601N powered variants is also a difficult question, since most of them were just re-engined, and we have only two figures for their numbers, one from July 1940, the other from Jan 1941..

The /B versions appear to have used the very slightly more powerful 601Aa engine instead of the A-1.

As for bombers, there are numbers somewhere, but by and large, the He 111 was by far the most numerous German bomber (something like 2/3s or more), followed by the declining numbers of old Do 17s and increasing numbers of Ju 88; Ju 87s numbered only about 300, some of them were of the R model with two droptanks (indeed very useful for operatios as the mainstay Ju 87B had very short range indeed, like the droptankless 109E).

I am not sure of the RAF Bomber Command. IIRC at the beginning of the War, the Wellington (pretty much an equivalent of the He 111, I hope they`ll make it, would make a great matchup for MP) and that sucky Blenheim were the backbone; there were also Hampdens and some other misc types in smaller numbers.

As far as Fighter Command goes, it is well known that the Hurricanes formed the majority, about 2/3s, the Spits almost all the rest, but there were a few Defiants and fighter version of the Blenheim - the latter two will certainly fullfill the wishes of the most masochistic types. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

At the start of the Battle, pretty much all RAF single engined fighters had two-pitch prop, but they were already underway for conversion to CSPs, a work that was largely done by mid/late-August.

The Spit II become operational in mid-August 1940; it slowly got into Squadron use as intially the deliveries were very sluggish and few planes were produced; it speeded up in the automn months of September/October. Some figures of production

June 1940 6
July 1940 23
August 1940 37
September 1940 51
October 1940 66

Alltogether however, the Spit II was pretty much the same as the Spit I, the engine had marginally more power at higher altitude and marginally less at low altitudes.

Much more interesting is the Hurri II, with it`s new two speed engine, a much more improved model; No 111 Sqn got them first in September 1940, though the old S-S book doesnt give a close date or that how many others got it.

Kurfurst__
02-26-2008, 02:21 PM
IIRC something like half the 109 force (it wasnt big) employed against Poland was still made up by Bf 109Ds and other early models; they were not in the fighter units though, but oddly filling up the ranks of the destroyer units.

During BoB, they were still around, but all of them back in Germany either with training or ad hoc established 'nightfighter' units.

Xiolablu3
02-26-2008, 02:22 PM
The RAF bomber effort was pretty seperate from the RAF Fighter vs Luftwaffe battle.

They would be using Wellingtons and Blenhiems.

I believe Fairey Battles were almost phased out by this time after their mauling inthe Battle Of France.

I dont think Stirlings came into service until a bit later, but they were one of the early 4 engined heavies. Possibly Handley Page Halifax were in action??

Wellingtons raided Berlin as early as August 1940, mainly just as a propaganda coup to make Goering look foolish. No bad damamge was done.

'No bomb will ever fall on Berlin or you can call me 'Meyer'' (Meyer was a Jewish name)

He was from then of course often reffered to as 'Meyer' in Germany. These 'Propanganda Coups' were used a lot by the RAF to keep Morale on the Allied side up and to try and affect Morale on the Axis side. Many raids throughout WW2 were carried out just to upset the Leaders of the Nazi party. One well known raid was when Goering was due to give a speech on German radio in 1943. Just as Goering w3as about to go on air, 2 RAF Mosquitos raced over Berlin in broad daylight and bombed the radio station, causing it to be delayed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The 'Battle of Britain' as we know it, is bascially the fight between the RAF fighters and the Luftwaffe. With the Luftwaffe attacking Britain and faling to subdue her, while the RAF fighters defended.

Bremspropeller
02-26-2008, 02:27 PM
What to expect?
109 vs Spit low-level ********ing on most servers.

Yawn, been there, done that.
I'm not gonna buy BoB till there's a 190 to fly.

Kurfurst__
02-26-2008, 02:28 PM
Bomber Command was pretty active though attacking the Germans in France during the Battle - during the night, of course, by this stage of the war. The targets were harbors, where the 'invasion fleet' assembled, and even airfields and other installations.

Though they are almost never mentioned, they had quite serious losses during the period, BC lost something like 600 bombers in those four months.. Coastal Command, too, lost a good number of aircraft, though I have no idea what planes would they be flying - fying boats, Swordfish and such I`d guess..?

thefruitbat
02-26-2008, 02:35 PM
Thanks for the information Kurfust http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

When did the Raf cure the neg g cutout in the spit? Am i correct in thinking that at some point they adopted something that improved the problem of neg cut out, before finally coming up with something else, that fixed the problem full stop, i'm sure i remember reading something like that, but have no idea of the timeline, maybe i was dreaming lol!

cheers fruitbat

Bremspropeller
02-26-2008, 02:42 PM
(Meyer was a Jewish name)

Nope.

berg417448
02-26-2008, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
Thanks for the information Kurfust http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

When did the Raf cure the neg g cutout in the spit? Am i correct in thinking that at some point they adopted something that improved the problem of neg cut out, before finally coming up with something else, that fixed the problem full stop, i'm sure i remember reading something like that, but have no idea of the timeline, maybe i was dreaming lol!

cheers fruitbat

Search for "Mrs Shillings Orifice". All will be explained!

Xiolablu3
02-26-2008, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">(Meyer was a Jewish name)

Nope. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SO can you enlighten us and explain exactly why Goering used it as an 'insult'?


I cant wait for Spit vs 109 battles in SOW:BOB. One of the best battles in IL2 is between Spitfire V's and Bf109F's. If its anything liek this then it will be fantastic.

Fw190A in late '41/42 vs SPitfire V's is going to be a yawnfest IMO. It will be to easy for the Fw190's, they were so much better. The real challenge will be flying the Spitfire. In IL2 channel battles between Fw190A vs SPit V's are just far to unbalanced to be fun even now.

Spit V vs 109F is where the real action is at. I hope Spit 1 vs 109E is as much fun!

Bremspropeller
02-26-2008, 02:55 PM
Xio,

Mayer/ Meyer/ Mayr/ Meyr/ Maier/ Meier/ Mair/ Meir is a very common German family-name.
Just as Schulze, Lehmann, Schmitt (d/dt/t/tz) and a few others.

It was like giving himself a "common" name that would put himself down to an "ordinary" people's level. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



As for the "190-add on" - it's not for pwning the RAF, but for any other scenario and a/c on the german side doesn't interest me that much - and the 190 happens to be my ride for roughly 80% my virtual flight-time in this game.

My guess would be there's something like a "Dieppe '42" Add-on, including the first three 190As, an early Spit IX, two or three Spit V versions, an early Tiffie and a Mustang I.
THAT would be a dream add-on. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

A 190 vs Spit V thingy would only cause either whining for an improved Spit version (which I would perfectly understand...), or really ghey balancing (which neither side would really be interested in).

There could also be a 109F / Spit V add-on, with a 190/ Spit IX following.

But I'd VERY much appreciate an add-on covering the "Dieppe '42" scenario i mentioned above. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif
That would really be the best solution IMHO.

luftluuver
02-26-2008, 02:56 PM
Luftwaffe Orders of Battle
17 August 1940
Serviceable Aircraft Strengths
Single-engined fighters 787
Twin-engined fighters 219
Night fighters 63
Fighter-bombers 119
Dive-bombers 294
Twin-engined bombers 960
Four-engined bombers 7
Long-range reconaissance aircraft 185
Short-range and army cooperation aircraft 135
Coastal aircraft 162
Transport aircraft 226
Total 3157

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/Aug40.html#13Aug

RAF BC sorties and losses 1940
http://www.lancaster-archive.com/bc-Stats1.htm#1940

RAF FC stations and a/c
http://www.battle-of-britain.com/

LW airfields and a/c
http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/luftflotteII.html

thefruitbat
02-26-2008, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
Thanks for the information Kurfust http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

When did the Raf cure the neg g cutout in the spit? Am i correct in thinking that at some point they adopted something that improved the problem of neg cut out, before finally coming up with something else, that fixed the problem full stop, i'm sure i remember reading something like that, but have no idea of the timeline, maybe i was dreaming lol!

cheers fruitbat

Search for "Mrs Shillings Orifice". All will be explained! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO, i thought you were kidding!!

found a good link here:

http://www.spitfiresociety.demon.co.uk/engines.htm

seems it was sometime in '41

cheers fruitbat

luftluuver
02-26-2008, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
(Note E-sumthin/N types with the 601N engine/100 octane fuel are not listed. By July there were One Wing ie. 3 Squadrons equipped with them.)
What JG and how many a/c they really had are ......

JG53Frankyboy
02-26-2008, 03:19 PM
DB601N units August 1940:
Bf109E-4/N
II./JG26

Bf110C-4/N
II./ZG26
III./ZG26
II./ZG76

JG53Frankyboy
02-26-2008, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
.........................But I'd VERY much appreciate an add-on covering the "Dieppe '42" scenario i mentioned above. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif
That would really be the best solution IMHO.

tell me about it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

as possible flyables:
Hurricane Mk.IIc
Spitfire Mk.Vb
Spitfire F.Mk.IXc
Typhoon Mk.Ib
Mustang Mk.I
Boston Mk.III
B-17E

Bf109G-1
Fw190A-3
Do217E

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

major_setback
02-26-2008, 03:45 PM
A really good book on the subject - The Battle of Britain By John Lake: It is one of those large well illustrated books, but with a running day to day account of attack, interceptions and losses on each side, and lists of placements of all squadrons (and aces)on both sides throughout the conflict.

From that book (I just took the less obvious ones):

Fairey Fulmar: Officially part of the order of battle, but took no active part.

Beaufughter. squadrons - 23, 25, 29, 219, 600, 604, FIU.

Lysander: Did not officially take part in the battle , but was initially intended for anti-invasion use, then later was employed in searches for downed airmen. Only one was reported as being involved in an aerial engagement.
Squadrons equipped with the Lysander: Number II squadron, nr 4 sqn, nr 13 sqn, nr 16 sqn, nr 26sqn, nr 110sqn, nr 225sqn, nr 231sqn, nr 235sqn, nr 241sqn, nr 246sqn, nr 613sqn, nr 614sqn, and nr 419 Flight.

FW200 Condor: Bombing attacks on Liverpool and Birkenhead in August!!! As well as shipping attacks from 8 april 1940 onwards, 90,000 tonnes being sunk by October. Stab/KG40 and I/KG40.

CantZ.1007.Bis
Used for recon.Flying from Belgium 172a sqn.
http://digilander.libero.it/torpedoclub/RA%2033.jpg http://www.villacidro.net/zzz/storia/1939e.jpg

He115. 9 different squadrons.


.

M_Gunz
02-26-2008, 04:14 PM
We were told from the start; fewer planes, more detailed. Wish listing.. why crank that up?

The following may or may not mean anything to do with the BoB release:

SOW Fiat G-50 on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoauro-9EJ8)

Is this from the 46 extras DVD? Is that a good source? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3sf0eiQ--o)

Work in progress (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9OWQ55n8ig&feature=related)

SOW:BoB Ju-88 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFUYROgba-M)

SOW:BoB He-111 H-2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny59blbRplA&feature=related)

109E-3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osJvzXTwwIA&feature=related)

Fiat Br.20 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ_k1kYN5DI&feature=related)

Blenheim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KLMVVSB-I4&feature=related)

110C-4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT91YvbyIS4&feature=related)

Ju-87B-2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgIGWCcsO78&feature=related)

Spit Mk I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JphWfh5gPYE&feature=related)

Hurri Mk I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwxtXt6AB4E&feature=related)

Su-26 M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJHz3TnehmY&feature=related)

major_setback
02-26-2008, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
We were told from the start; fewer planes, more detailed. Wish listing.. why crank that up?



The question was about the Battle, not the game.


"What I would like to achieve in this thread is a level unbiased discussion that focuses on historical facts and statistics...."

MB_Avro_UK
02-26-2008, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
What to expect?
109 vs Spit low-level ********ing on most servers.

Yawn, been there, done that.
I'm not gonna buy BoB till there's a 190 to fly.

Hi Brems,

I'm slightly disappointed with your response. 'Been there done that'??

It will be a historical sim.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

MB_Avro_UK
02-26-2008, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
Kurfusrt, a couple of questions,

first what ere the main differences between the diff emils,

and secondly, weren't there many refits and retro fitting done in the field, and how does this affect the figures?

cheers fruitbat

Frankyboy covered the first part already; as to retrofit, the (not sufficient for such quick changeover) new production E-4 figures suggest that the sudden appearance of the E-4 and disappearance of the E-3 was simply E-3s becoming E-4s (indeed the difference is miniscule, some parts replaced within the MG FF to enable it to fire the lighter Mine shells). The number of 601N powered variants is also a difficult question, since most of them were just re-engined, and we have only two figures for their numbers, one from July 1940, the other from Jan 1941..

The /B versions appear to have used the very slightly more powerful 601Aa engine instead of the A-1.

As for bombers, there are numbers somewhere, but by and large, the He 111 was by far the most numerous German bomber (something like 2/3s or more), followed by the declining numbers of old Do 17s and increasing numbers of Ju 88; Ju 87s numbered only about 300, some of them were of the R model with two droptanks (indeed very useful for operatios as the mainstay Ju 87B had very short range indeed, like the droptankless 109E).

I am not sure of the RAF Bomber Command. IIRC at the beginning of the War, the Wellington (pretty much an equivalent of the He 111, I hope they`ll make it, would make a great matchup for MP) and that sucky Blenheim were the backbone; there were also Hampdens and some other misc types in smaller numbers.

As far as Fighter Command goes, it is well known that the Hurricanes formed the majority, about 2/3s, the Spits almost all the rest, but there were a few Defiants and fighter version of the Blenheim - the latter two will certainly fullfill the wishes of the most masochistic types. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

At the start of the Battle, pretty much all RAF single engined fighters had two-pitch prop, but they were already underway for conversion to CSPs, a work that was largely done by mid/late-August.

The Spit II become operational in mid-August 1940; it slowly got into Squadron use as intially the deliveries were very sluggish and few planes were produced; it speeded up in the automn months of September/October. Some figures of production

June 1940 6
July 1940 23
August 1940 37
September 1940 51
October 1940 66

Alltogether however, the Spit II was pretty much the same as the Spit I, the engine had marginally more power at higher altitude and marginally less at low altitudes.

Much more interesting is the Hurri II, with it`s new two speed engine, a much more improved model; No 111 Sqn got them first in September 1940, though the old S-S book doesnt give a close date or that how many others got it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good and accurate post Kurfurst http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Yes,the Blenheim was a death trap for it's crews. The casualties in Bomber Command Blenheims IIRC were worse than RAF Fighter Command.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

ElAurens
02-26-2008, 05:16 PM
See my post in Hayate's thread.

There will be nothing historical about SOW:BoB except the planesets, and the map.

Nothing.

Bremspropeller
02-26-2008, 05:19 PM
Avro, I'm with ElAu on this one.

It has a historical background, agree, but that usually falls quite short on DF-servers.

Sad, but thats the way it goes.

For me, BoB is gonna mean "new rig". I can't afford it now anyway.

MB_Avro_UK
02-26-2008, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Avro, I'm with ElAu on this one.

It has a historical background, agree, but that usually falls quite short on DF-servers.

Sad, but thats the way it goes.

For me, BoB is gonna mean "new rig". I can't afford it now anyway.

But will BoB have dogfight servers?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

ElAurens
02-26-2008, 06:00 PM
This same phenomenon will doom any future WW1 sim totally, at least from a historical tactics perspective.

We all play and view these simulations through modern eyes. We already know what the best tactics are, we are not improvising as we go like the flyers in the day did. Hence Zeros get slaughtered at Pearl Harbor, etc...

Not saying I don't like the sim, it is my favorite by far. but anyone who thinks it plays out historically is delusional.

M_Gunz
02-26-2008, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by major_setback:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
We were told from the start; fewer planes, more detailed. Wish listing.. why crank that up?



The question was about the Battle, not the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, really?

M_Gunz
02-26-2008, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
See my post in Hayate's thread.

There will be nothing historical about SOW:BoB except the planesets, and the map.

Nothing.

There should be a lot of Experten LW pilots as well as rookies but without looking there I
can easily agree that the online action will not represent "how it was" more than a little.
Unless the AI is much better than ours the online won't be much closer, will it?

EDIT: as long as the players are players not afraid to takes risks, what to expect?

ploughman
02-26-2008, 06:26 PM
This is a game. Have fun. If you're interested in reality, turn off your computer and go outside.

M_Gunz
02-26-2008, 07:45 PM
They get upset when I shoot and blow things up outside....

Skoshi Tiger
02-27-2008, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
At the start of the Battle, pretty much all RAF single engined fighters had two-pitch prop, but they were already underway for conversion to CSPs, a work that was largely done by mid/late-August.

The Spit II become operational in mid-August 1940; it slowly got into Squadron use as intially the deliveries were very sluggish and few planes were produced; it speeded up in the automn months of September/October. Some figures of production

June 1940 6
July 1940 23
August 1940 37
September 1940 51
October 1940 66

Alltogether however, the Spit II was pretty much the same as the Spit I, the engine had marginally more power at higher altitude and marginally less at low altitudes.


Like most fighters, the MkI spitfires had a constant seriese of improvements from their introduction.

The first 78 or so had the two bladed wooden airscrews, these were replaced by the 3 bladed two pitch metal airscrews. Just before Bob the de Havilland and Rotol Constant Speed units were introduced.

The improvements were quite substantial. Takeoff was improved from 420 yards with the wooden prop to 320 yards with the 2 pitch units, to 225 yards with the CS units. Even though the upgraded planes were heavier, they could use the power much more efficiently.

Other improvements that were introduced by the time of the Battle were Armour protection including windscreen, 3mm alloy plate over the upper fuel tank (doesn't sound like much but a bullet would be more likely to glance off if shot from infront (Hmmm! maybe thats why they put in the tougher glass on the windscreen!)) and a steel plate behind the pilots seat,
100 octane fuel (allowed +12lbs boost), IFF equipment, two step rudder pedals (better for high G maneuvers). All these added to the spitfires weight

The major difference between the MkII and the late production MkI was the Merlin XII motor. This improved the climb rate, but the top speed was still less than the early MkI without the added weight (with the CSP I expect)

Now with all these different upgrades, what will the spitfire in BoB be like?

M_Gunz
02-27-2008, 06:30 AM
What change was the Mk Ia? Just prop?

JG53Frankyboy
02-27-2008, 06:46 AM
the suffix 'a' was introduced after the canon armed Spit I , that was named Ib. The original Ib had only the two canons as armament , no .303 anymore ! No wonder this first models were not liked by the 19.sqn , beeing in a fight with without any weapon after the canons jammed, what happend very often in these first ones, and the very short firing time with the 60rpg was also not liked.

so, there is no difference between an 8x.303cal armed Spitfire I and a Spitfre Ia http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG53Frankyboy
02-27-2008, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
What to expect?
109 vs Spit low-level ********ing on most servers.

Yawn, been there, done that.
I'm not gonna buy BoB till there's a 190 to fly.



Hi Brems,

I'm slightly disappointed with your response. 'Been there done that'??

It will be a historical sim.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

a possibility to give the airfight a kind of difference in different missions/maps is perhaps sometimes to leave out the "SubbaDubba" fighters, named here Bf109E and Spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Limit the fighter part than to Bf110 and G.50 versus Hurricane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bewolf
02-27-2008, 07:38 AM
As long as the Ju88 is modelled as flyable, and that she is, I am happy.

Have fun with playing with yourselves, fighter jocks. Bombers win the war.

leitmotiv
02-27-2008, 07:47 AM
Bf 110C, D (dinghy in tail + long range tank[s]), and E

Ju 88A-1/5

Do 17Z

He 111H-1-5

He 111P

Fw 200C (used in some night raids)

Whitley V

Wellington IA/IC

Hampden

Blenheim IF

Blenheim IV/IVF

Battle I-III

Capt.LoneRanger
02-27-2008, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
What to expect?
109 vs Spit low-level ********ing on most servers.

Yawn, been there, done that.
I'm not gonna buy BoB till there's a 190 to fly.



Hi Brems,

I'm slightly disappointed with your response. 'Been there done that'??

It will be a historical sim.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

a possibility to give the airfight a kind of difference in different missions/maps is perhaps sometimes to leave out the "SubbaDubba" fighters, named here Bf109E and Spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Limit the fighter part than to Bf110 and G.50 versus Hurricane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not a problem of the sim, but of the people playing on the servers. I like groundpounding and on WarClouds this is still real fun, cause 99% of the players there only care about scoring aerial victories.
Missions? Yeah, if they get shot down too much.
Flying CAP? Boring.
So no bombers? Sure. They bomb the enemy airfield...
And if you search for the dogfight, best place to look for is in the middle of 2 bases.

You think FullRealServers are any better? Dream on.

It will be the same with BoB - or even worse.

JG53Frankyboy
02-27-2008, 11:43 AM
the possibility of having AI controled planes on (the nowadays so called) dogfight maps may help in SoW http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

anyway, its totaly true that it depends mostly on the players how a online fight/mission looks like, not on the game.

Irish_Rogues
02-27-2008, 12:02 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif Good point Frankyboy

Viper2005_
02-27-2008, 12:57 PM
For an historical perspective on Merlin negative g performance, see page 5 of the following accident report:

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_501355.pdf

JG54_Arnie
02-27-2008, 01:09 PM
I expect to see lots of cheese and beer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(for those who are sitting there, looking at this post thinking "Wtf??!", its something to wake Fritz up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Capt.LoneRanger
02-27-2008, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
the possibility of having AI controled planes on (the nowadays so called) dogfight maps may help in SoW http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

anyway, its totaly true that it depends mostly on the players how a online fight/mission looks like, not on the game.

Exactly. That is why those AI planes is the part I am mostly looking forward to in the SoW-series. If just for the immersion to see that there is more going on than just a hand full of fighters in a fierce dogfight below cloudlevel.

M_Gunz
02-27-2008, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:
I expect to see lots of cheese and beer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cheese and beer is much better than sour whine!
Pretzels would be good too!

Kettenhunde
02-27-2008, 04:58 PM
For an historical perspective on Merlin negative g performance, see page 5 of the following accident report:

That's twins. Left engine power reduction, pilot too slow to compensate for yaw forces and asymmetrical thrust brings him down.

Classic twin fatality.

The reason for the second engine on the airplane?

To ensure the aircraft makes it all the way to the crash site.

M_Gunz
02-28-2008, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">For an historical perspective on Merlin negative g performance, see page 5 of the following accident report:

That's twins. Left engine power reduction, pilot too slow to compensate for yaw forces and asymmetrical thrust brings him down.

Classic twin fatality.

The reason for the second engine on the airplane?

To ensure the aircraft makes it all the way to the crash site. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dunno if you ever listen to Ron White but he has a really good comedy routine about being drunk
on a twin when the captain reported trouble with an engine. He had a sober and very nervous
guy next to him. He figured the remaining engine would get them all the way to the scene of
the crash. In fact, they'd be the first ones there by a good twenty minutes. I like Ron's
blue collar comedy. Ron 'Tater-Salad' White comes up with some very good and dry wit!

Pirschjaeger
02-28-2008, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:
I expect to see lots of cheese and beer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(for those who are sitting there, looking at this post thinking "Wtf??!", its something to wake Fritz up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Arnie lives!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Dude, where have you been? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

JG52Uther
02-28-2008, 02:08 AM
SoW will be what you make it.Same as il2.The best flight I ever had here was in a dogfight server (WC?) where me and a squadmate took JU88's and flew the long way round the map,at very low level,and avoided everyone else.We bombed the target successfully,then left the area still at low level,and went the long way home,avoiding the enemy fighters hunting us.By the time we were back at a friendly base,we were flying at 50% power with the fuel warning lights on.We just made it.I care nothing for roundy round dogfights,I want immersion,and SoW will deliver it I believe.I really really hope Oleg makes the Do17 flyable (Kenly raid anyone?)

Pirschjaeger
02-28-2008, 02:12 AM
It seems a few can't differentiate between "the game" and "online servers".

We shouldn't view the two as the same.

Regarding servers, it would be nice if the admins communicated and created a rating system that accurately describes the situations on a scale of 1 to 5. Example:

5 Sturmovik Triangle; full planeset, spawn in flight, no rules

1 Fully Accurate; historically accurate, accurate planesets........

This way people would know where to go since everyone has different tastes and different moods. We shouldn't let our personal server preferences be the basis for judging the game when the servers are completely independent of what Oleg's intentions are, especially before the game is released.

Oleg brought us the IL-2 series and up to now I know of nothing that compares. We should trust that Oleg will continue setting the standards.

Getting back on topic, Oleg went from early war to late war with the IL2 series. Does anyone think he might go from early to earlier this time? Maybe BoB to the Spanish Civil War and eventually to WW1?

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
02-28-2008, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by JG52Uther:
SoW will be what you make it.Same as il2.The best flight I ever had here was in a dogfight server (WC?) where me and a squadmate took JU88's and flew the long way round the map,at very low level,and avoided everyone else.We bombed the target successfully,then left the area still at low level,and went the long way home,avoiding the enemy fighters hunting us.By the time we were back at a friendly base,we were flying at 50% power with the fuel warning lights on.We just made it.I care nothing for roundy round dogfights,I want immersion,and SoW will deliver it I believe.I really really hope Oleg makes the Do17 flyable (Kenly raid anyone?)

I hear you Uther. I'm not so much into bombers but I do like escorting them. Even if we were able to avoid the enemy I still feel I did something useful.

Immersion is the word. We flew a similar mission as you described. Our goal was to avoid detection, decimate the enemies fuel reserves, and return to base. Had we met the enemy, it wouldn't have been a complete success, even if I had shot them down.

Like you said, it is what you make of it. Oleg has given us endless options.

Edit: BTW, I'd like to thank all those who have been providing accurate information and stats. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Bewolf
02-28-2008, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Uther:
SoW will be what you make it.Same as il2.The best flight I ever had here was in a dogfight server (WC?) where me and a squadmate took JU88's and flew the long way round the map,at very low level,and avoided everyone else.We bombed the target successfully,then left the area still at low level,and went the long way home,avoiding the enemy fighters hunting us.By the time we were back at a friendly base,we were flying at 50% power with the fuel warning lights on.We just made it.I care nothing for roundy round dogfights,I want immersion,and SoW will deliver it I believe.I really really hope Oleg makes the Do17 flyable (Kenly raid anyone?)

I hear you Uther. I'm not so much into bombers but I do like escorting them. Even if we were able to avoid the enemy I still feel I did something useful.

Immersion is the word. We flew a similar mission as you described. Our goal was to avoid detection, decimate the enemies fuel reserves, and return to base. Had we met the enemy, it wouldn't have been a complete success, even if I had shot them down.

Like you said, it is what you make of it. Oleg has given us endless options.

Edit: BTW, I'd like to thank all those who have been providing accurate information and stats. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spot on. I care **** about 100 percent perfect modelling of the planes if the graphics and overall atmosphere does not fit. I am a bomber jock anyways. All I want to have is the feeling of "beeing" there. The competition is for the score cravers.I remember once beeing in a mission with nearly 8 Ju88s flying in formation. All were on comms. We did a level attack. The first aircraft did the aiming and gave the command to drop bombs. Next mission was loaded right after the last bomb hit. That's the way to go http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kettenhunde
02-28-2008, 03:49 AM
Dunno if you ever listen to Ron White but he has a really good comedy routine about being drunk
on a twin when the captain reported trouble with an engine. He had a sober and very nervous
guy next to him. He figured the remaining engine would get them all the way to the scene of
the crash. In fact, they'd be the first ones there by a good twenty minutes. I like Ron's
blue collar comedy. Ron 'Tater-Salad' White comes up with some very good and dry wit!

Yep that is it.

I didn't mean to imply that the accident was pilot error either. Drop below a certain velocity and you don't have enough rudder input to prevent the accident.

You have to be ready to compensate for yaw, chop power, and feather the dead engine's prop in an instant. Time and circumstances can easily stack against a twin pilot in slow flight making recovery impossible. You very well may not have time to perform all the needed steps before the plane enters the spin. I think this pilot was in that situation. I also think he did everything he could humanly do. He came close to recovery but simply had no options left. He continued to fly the plane right up to his death. Not much else can be asked of a pilot.


All the best,

Crumpp

M_Gunz
02-28-2008, 07:33 AM
When you wrote "classic"..........

buzzsaw1939
02-28-2008, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Dunno if you ever listen to Ron White but he has a really good comedy routine about being drunk
on a twin when the captain reported trouble with an engine. He had a sober and very nervous
guy next to him. He figured the remaining engine would get them all the way to the scene of
the crash. In fact, they'd be the first ones there by a good twenty minutes. I like Ron's
blue collar comedy. Ron 'Tater-Salad' White comes up with some very good and dry wit!

Yep that is it.

I didn't mean to imply that the accident was pilot error either. Drop below a certain velocity and you don't have enough rudder input to prevent the accident.

You have to be ready to compensate for yaw, chop power, and feather the dead engine's prop in an instant. Time and circumstances can easily stack against a twin pilot in slow flight making recovery impossible. You very well may not have time to perform all the needed steps before the plane enters the spin. I think this pilot was in that situation. I also think he did everything he could humanly do. He came close to recovery but simply had no options left. He continued to fly the plane right up to his death. Not much else can be asked of a pilot.


All the best,

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if I missed somehting here, but I find no dead engine yaw in this sim at all!

First time I tried shuting one down, I almost spun into the good engine from my automatic reflexes! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

M_Gunz
02-28-2008, 02:02 PM
Finally that part of the FM is verified by a highly trained multi-engine professional!
It's a shame you weren't here during a certain discussion months ago but that's as it goes.

Long ago it was told that even though we can make differential thrust work for P-38's the
result would not be as real and now I believe the root why has been answered!

Kettenhunde
02-28-2008, 02:42 PM
First time I tried shuting one down, I almost spun into the good engine from my automatic reflexes!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

JG54_Arnie
03-01-2008, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:

Arnie lives!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Dude, where have you been? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Hmm, well you know, busy, work, school.. barely time for gaming even http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Looking forward to BOB though.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Should have more spare time around its release.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BWaltteri
03-01-2008, 04:41 AM
I wonder will there be France 1939-40 scenarios in BoB. It would be a good place for those.

And that Finns would get flyable Moranes and Hawks too. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

M_Gunz
03-01-2008, 05:29 AM
Didn't the Germans get a few Moranes to use for themselves as well?

Pirschjaeger
03-01-2008, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:

Arnie lives!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Dude, where have you been? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Hmm, well you know, busy, work, school.. barely time for gaming even http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Looking forward to BOB though.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Should have more spare time around its release.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Already planning for your retirement? (release) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Is EasternHotShots still up and running?

BTW, we're in the same timezone now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

JG54_Arnie
03-01-2008, 09:02 AM
Yeha, I figured retirement would be a great moment to start gaming more. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif haha http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Well, to be honest, I do hope that Oleg gets his baby out quicker. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif cheese

Cool man. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You know what that means aye! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
It means lots of beer and cheese are now within your reach..
Holland has been storing cheese up for just this moment! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

EDIT: oh and Eastern Hotshots died a silent death unfortunatly. It was never really populated unless we tried to draw people in first.

Pirschjaeger
03-02-2008, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:

Holland has been storing cheese up for just this moment! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pray they have allies. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:
EDIT: oh and Eastern Hotshots died a silent death unfortunatly. It was never really populated unless we tried to draw people in first.

I predict a reincarnation to take place just after the first few BoB bugs are worked out.

mynameisroland
03-02-2008, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
As far as Fighter Command goes, it is well known that the Hurricanes formed the majority, about 2/3s, the Spits almost all the rest, but there were a few Defiants and fighter version of the Blenheim - the latter two will certainly fullfill the wishes of the most masochistic types. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


You mean like those Blue types who chose to fly the Stuka, Bf 110 C and Do 17 ?

Kurfurst__
03-02-2008, 05:28 AM
Blenheim vs 110 C server? Anytime, Baby! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BTW, you would be surprised how nasty a well flown 110C can be. At least in WW2online, vs. the old Hurris.. its fast, and with proper tactics, staying the vertical,

Its a bit like the P-47, and I am sure the attitude will be similiar when this other Juggernaught made it into Il2; the impression was that its a pig - people flew it like a lightweight fighter, but when flown to its strenghts, it can be surprisingly effective.

I am quite sure actually many old FW 190 jock will re-train to the 110C. It will be all familiar to them as far as tactics go.

I have no idea what problems you have with the Do 17, probably its the crosses, but it was reputed to be a rugged machine, it had good speed, even if bombload was not spectatular (still more than that sucky bomber version Blenheim). The Stuka will be of course vulnerable, but damn effective as an attack aircraft. Good thing though we will have the Big Stuka, too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Anyway, Stuka pilots are special bunch, they just love to fly that crate and care of little else. I guess they are a similiar bunch as dedicated Hurri pilots.

M_Gunz
03-02-2008, 05:46 AM
Going by WW2online FM might not be a great idea.
How did they do against Hurricanes above and below say 3km alt for real?
Is there even enough information?

We've already been told that SOW models will have weight distributed in the model,
I am wondering if the SOW multi-engines will also be more real as to thrust and drag of props?
Of course until we get SOW only the dev team can say, or perhaps betas who should not.

Kurfurst__
03-02-2008, 05:51 AM
Indeed WW2OL FM is not too great.. though energy tactics work well with it, and some 110C pilots there, who strictly flew the plane the proper way - dives and zooms - and it made me feel quite hapless in the Hurri Mk I, when I expected an easy kill.

Its also a matter of question what 110C we will get - the ones with DB 601A/B or with DB 601N. The latter ones were rather fast, especially at altitude.

mynameisroland
03-02-2008, 06:20 AM
So now your likening the Stuka to the Hurricane ? Great comparison there.

If the Bf 110 C was any good at all vs single engined fighters why did it fail so badly during the Battle of Briatin?

Da_Godfatha
03-02-2008, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
I don't know if there's another thread like what I hope to accomplish with this one.

Although I've been here for years I don't know much about the Battle of Britain. Sooner or later Oleg's BoB will be released and the patches will start rolling out. I expect that Oleg will deliver something that brings a new level of historical accuracy and immersion to our monitors. In Oleg we trust.

What I would like to achieve in this thread is a level unbiased discussion that focuses on historical facts and statistics, rather than guess work and opinions.

Regarding fighters and AFAIK, there were only 4 fighters involved:

Bf109 variants, possibly Fw190a, Hurricanes, and Spitfires. I'm not sure it the early p51s were involved. What I would like to know is (A) Which fighters were involved, including variants, and (B) how many of each.

I know many of you know the exact numbers, so I'll ask here.

Fritz

Sorry man, but if it is like the IL-2 series, it will be "History according to Oleg (tm)" an nothing else. He really, really has to pull a fancy one if he makes this one correct. There has been way to many things wrong with his sim. I think he is getting his info from the "so-called" 109 and Spitfire experts that visit here. I really do hope he gets it better this time.

Pirschjaeger
03-02-2008, 06:54 AM
I don't know of any other WW2 flight sims that come close to Oleg's. I'm not expecting perfection,..... just Oleg's standards which have been pretty good so far.

skarden
03-02-2008, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
So now your likening the Stuka to the Hurricane ? Great comparison there.

If the Bf 110 C was any good at all vs single engined fighters why did it fail so badly during the Battle of Briatin?

From what I'v read it's because the pilots were ordered to fly right next to the bombers when escorting,which of course eliminated most of it's strenth's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

JG53Frankyboy
03-02-2008, 07:25 AM
i personally dont expect much of the SoW Bf110 abouts is ability to fight single engined fighters.

if at all, it will most propably (lacking of serious datas http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ) not much faster, if at all, as a Hurricane Mk.I 12lb/sq.in. boost in the "typical" online heights.........

its not nimble enough to get in fireposition (beside having a lot of lead in the aim) - not on the ailerons, not on the elevator.
it will most propably not have a lot of armour, if at all !!
The canons, well, depends on Maddox will modell MG-FF/M (means from C-3 on, except the C-6).......

as a fighterbomber in a Erp.Grp.210 career , it will be fun for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
but as a fighter agaisnt other fighters............
you will propably able to get some kills , because of your armament (as it is like now in IL2 with its Bf110G-2), but as soon you get the foe on your back.......... you need a teammate or you will be very fast on the ground !

M_Gunz
03-02-2008, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
So now your likening the Stuka to the Hurricane ? Great comparison there.

If the Bf 110 C was any good at all vs single engined fighters why did it fail so badly during the Battle of Briatin?

Without knowing small details of the planes that is pretty much the idea I wonder.
The 100's did not seem to do so well at all, are even told to have needed escorts themselves!
Doesn't the deployment/use history of those bear that out? They did not continue as day fighters
in front line use did they?

I also think how badly the Fairey Battles or some other British bombers sucked makes any difference
seeing as those didn't make the first team cut either.

Pirschjaeger
03-02-2008, 12:23 PM
I hope BoB graphics will look more like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPiB5GymmQs&feature=related)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

Kurfurst__
03-02-2008, 12:35 PM
I get about 213 claims made by ZG 26 and ZG 76 during July-October, which is probably incomplete and of course only claims, but perhaps gives some idea..

ElAurens
03-02-2008, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
I hope BoB graphics will look more like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPiB5GymmQs&feature=related)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

As long as they don't have those distracting "clickable" cockpits. I hate them in FSX.

I hope they do have FS's weapons modeling though...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JG53Frankyboy
03-03-2008, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
I get about 213 claims made by ZG 26 and ZG 76 during July-October, which is probably incomplete and of course only claims, but perhaps gives some idea..

and than compar with how much Bf110s the Zerstöer arm was beginning the fight and how much it lost..........................

anyway, however you want it - the use of the Bf110 as a fighter against single engined fighters of the RAF was a totaly desaster !
an even more waste of men and resources than the Battle as its whole - from the german point of view !
instead these 9 groups of Destroyers , it would have been better ( not meaning it would have changed the outcome of the Battle !) to have 3 more groups of Bf109s !
or to equip ALL Bf110 groups , and not only the 2 squadrons of the Erp.Grp.210, with bombs and to use them to attack enemy airfields and radarstations !

but after all happened, sure we know much more than the people who took actually part at that time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

anyway, Manckau is metioning in his Bf110 book that the higher leaders in the LW already knew of the Bf110s lack of ability to fight single engined fighters , but Göing, stressed on and pushed "his" Destroyer force , actually an Elite in pilot quality, in these dogfights - and they failed.
guess what could have done this highly qualified pilots in Bf109s (as mentioned above, better 3 groups of 109s than 9 groups of 110s )

Pirschjaeger
03-03-2008, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
I hope BoB graphics will look more like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPiB5GymmQs&feature=related)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

As long as they don't have those distracting "clickable" cockpits. I hate them in FSX.

I hope they do have FS's weapons modeling though...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never played FS but if that video is any indication I might have to buy it. The colors and lighting looks really good. This is where Oleg's weaknesses lay.