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View Full Version : Pull out from dive in F4U causes rollover and crash



jldjs
04-06-2009, 11:47 AM
I'm new to IL1946 and like to fly the F4U but I can't pull out of a dive without rolling over to right and pitching down to usually a crash. Any tips on what I should do?

jldjs
04-06-2009, 11:47 AM
I'm new to IL1946 and like to fly the F4U but I can't pull out of a dive without rolling over to right and pitching down to usually a crash. Any tips on what I should do?

b2spirita
04-06-2009, 01:10 PM
Chances are, you are pulling too hard and stalling. Try easing up on the stick. Alternatively, try flying a lower performance plane to get started. Id recommend the hurricane for starters.

blairgowrie
04-06-2009, 01:22 PM
Moving this to General Discussion where it properly belongs.

Ba5tard5word
04-06-2009, 01:32 PM
I'm not sure what the term for it is (stalling?), but a lot of planes in Il-2 will flip over if you pull back hard on the stick no matter what. The I-16, Fw-190, Spitfire, Ki-84, Tempests and several others come to mind, and I guess the Corsair (which I haven't really flown much). You just have to get used to it and know how far you can pull back on the stick before you flip over.

Yeah I would say to not pull back as hard on the stick and pull back less and more gradually, just keep practicing. Also if you're diving really fast, it's harder to move the plane because you're flying so fast (I think this is compression?) The P-38 is really bad at this, point your nose down and after a while you'll hardly be able to move, which is bad when you're pointed down at the ground...

If diving maybe turn down your engine throttle to slow down a bit. You can't use flaps because they'll probably jam at high speed. The Corsair's landing gear I think can act as air brakes, but I really haven't flown it more than a couple times...in most planes landing gear will disintegrate if you're going much more than 400 kph.


Oh yeah and in any of these "flippy" planes, be careful when you're flying at ground level, a flip will cause you to lose control and hit the ground. If you're higher up in the air you can usually regain control, though sometimes you'll completely lose control and crash.

Some planes like the Bf-109 seem to not flip, maybe because they have slats on the front of the wing but I really don't know, other people here probably know more about aerodynamics.

ace1328fw190
04-06-2009, 01:38 PM
Hi jldjs,
I fly the Corsair frequently, and my best way is to pull gentle, put down flaps to combat and rudder the oppisite direction of the spin slightly, and when i say slightly, i mean like 1-2 mm, otherwise any more, yoll roll the other way at those speeds, hope this helps
-=S=-
mmarten13

R_Target
04-06-2009, 01:42 PM
Don't pull so hard, and add a little left rudder.

crucislancer
04-06-2009, 01:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
I'm not sure what the term for it is (stalling?), but a lot of planes in Il-2 will flip over if you pull back hard on the stick no matter what. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's called an Accelerated Stall (http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/pilot-talk/ntsb-debriefer/the-accelerated-stall.html).

Gentle movments are a good idea in the planes mentioned above, though any aircraft can get into an accelerated stall. But, the Corsair and Tempest are known for exhibiting flip on the back behaviour.

Ba5tard5word
04-06-2009, 02:35 PM
^
Hmm cool, I figured it was something different than a normal stall (mainly because you don't get a "Stall!" message on screen in Il-2).

So is it the slats on a 109 or La-5 that prevent them from doing that? Why would they not be put on planes like the Tempest or 190?

jldjs
04-06-2009, 03:59 PM
Thanks all for your feedback. I was hoping I needed a F4U fix rather than a "pilot" fix. I'll take you suggestions and modify my technique.
I really like this plane and remember it from when I was a kid and they flew over my backyard in formation.

RPMcMurphy
04-06-2009, 04:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jldjs:
I really like this plane and remember it from when I was a kid and they flew over my backyard in formation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would you mind going into that a little bit more jldjs?

jldjs
04-06-2009, 04:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Would you mind going into that a little bit more jldjs? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What part? If you mean what I saw when i was a kid I saw them flying out of Willow Grove Naval Air station around 1952. WGNA used to be a reserve base back then. I believe they still might have an F4U something in their modest museum.

BillSwagger
04-06-2009, 05:09 PM
also, i've learned a way to get out of a spin...

depending on the plane if you just layoff the controls and staighten out, gravity will orient the plane and you will resume normal flight.

In situations where you are spinning too rapidly for that to work, you hard rudder into the spin, which should bring your nose down. As that happens you roll with the spin. Don't roll too soon , or you will only perpetuate the spin. Make sure you rudder enough so your nose is pointed down, then the roll should be a gradual movement as the plane stabilizes. the ease off the rudder.

If ruddering causes the nose to pitch up, and your spin flattens out (so that you see the horizon line)....you are ruddering the wrong way.

If you start spinning end over end....you are rolling the wrong way.


Its good to know your planes stall behavior as it can be useful in combat, and you may want to intentionally put your plane into a spin to avoid certain death.

That's what've figured out, anyway.

RPMcMurphy
04-06-2009, 05:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jldjs:
[What part? If you mean what I saw when i was a kid I saw them flying out of Willow Grove Naval Air station around 1952. WGNA used to be a reserve base back then. I believe they still might have an F4U something in their modest museum. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yessir, that was the part. I was curious about you seeing a formation of them from your back yard. That must have been a sight to see, and probably very often too I bet.
Sounds similar to an ANG base in my home town that has a fenced-off display of the planes that were there over the years. It starts with a P-51 and goes on up to an F-4 Phantom. The earliest I remember seeing in the air was the F-102s they had. We would go out to the runway light towers and watch them come in low on final. But I will get to see a Corsair this coming weekend on April 11th at an airshow here in central texas. Theres not that many of them anymore.
BTW I hope you get the hang of flying it here in IL2. Its the plane I have been flying most of all for the past 3 years or so. I have become very used to carrier operations in the F4U. Once you get it, you will love it. You might want to go in and adjust your stick input settings. You can reduce the pitch to stop those stall outs. And I found I have to use alot of rudder when flying these planes.

b2spirita
04-06-2009, 05:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillSwagger:
also, i've learned a way to get out of a spin...

depending on the plane if you just layoff the controls and staighten out, gravity will orient the plane and you will resume normal flight.

In situations where you are spinning too rapidly for that to work, you hard rudder into the spin, which should bring your nose down. As that happens you roll with the spin. Don't roll too soon , or you will only perpetuate the spin. Make sure you rudder enough so your nose is pointed down, then the roll should be a gradual movement as the plane stabilizes. the ease off the rudder.

If ruddering causes the nose to pitch up, and your spin flattens out (so that you see the horizon line)....you are ruddering the wrong way.

If you start spinning end over end....you are rolling the wrong way.


Its good to know your planes stall behavior as it can be useful in combat, and you may want to intentionally put your plane into a spin to avoid certain death.

That's what've figured out, anyway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Good stuff. This is what i use and it works pretty well.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If the aircraft manufacturer provides a specific procedure for spin recovery, that procedure must be used. Otherwise, to recover from an upright spin, the following generic procedure may be used: Power is first reduced to idle and the ailerons are neutralized. Then, full opposite rudder (that is, against the yaw) is added and held to counteract the spin rotation, and the elevator control is moved briskly forward to reduce the angle of attack below the critical angle. Depending on the airplane and the type of spin, the elevator action could be a minimal input before rotation ceases, or in other cases, the elevator control may have to be moved to its full forward position to effect recovery from the upright spin. Once the rotation has stopped, the rudder must be neutralized and the airplane returned to level flight.This procedure is sometimes called PARE, for Power idle, Ailerons neutral, Rudder opposite the spin and held, and Elevator through neutral </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

VW-IceFire
04-06-2009, 07:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
^
Hmm cool, I figured it was something different than a normal stall (mainly because you don't get a "Stall!" message on screen in Il-2).

So is it the slats on a 109 or La-5 that prevent them from doing that? Why would they not be put on planes like the Tempest or 190? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The 109 and La-5 have accelerated stalls as well...the slats make it happen slower and in a more controllable way. Eventually if you pull hard enough a wing is going to loose lift and you're going to go rolling all over the sky.

julian265
04-06-2009, 07:52 PM
It's just like (intelligent) emergency braking in a car without ABS: you need to get a feel for how hard you can brake without locking a wheel, just like you need to develop a feel for how hard you can pull back without snap rolling the plane. Of course, it's different for each type.

You can gauge it on plane buffeting (shake) and buffet noise.

You won't get anywhere near the best performance pull-out or turn if you're rudder ball is not centered.

BillSwagger
04-06-2009, 08:19 PM
altitude is going to play a big part on what your plane does too, particularly in wing design.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.c...s/Lift-to-drag_ratio (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Lift-to-drag_ratio)