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Pigeon_
07-18-2008, 01:33 PM
Hi. I've been flying online for quite a while now and I really like flying in the Pacific theater. However, there are still some things that I don't understand about flying on the allied side. So, here are some general questions and some more specific questions. I hope someone can help me with this.

First off, I'm not going to complain about the .50s, used on most USN planes. I think they do their job rather well against the Japanese planes in most situations. Please don't turn this thread into a debate about this. It will not help me at all.
However, I do have the feeling that the American planes aren't as "rugged" as they should be. My F6F got shot in half after just a few hits by a Zeke on more than one occasion. Was this just bad luck, or is there really something wrong with the modelling here?

USN planes also tend to overheat quickly, at least, when I'm flying them they do. Any tips to avoid overheating?

People online told me that the radiator on the F6F is bugged and that I shouldn't open it at all. Is this true? And if so, are there more well known bugs about radiators and other stuff?

Another thing about the Hellcat: it feels very underpowered. I know I should make a distinction between simulator and real life performance, but one would expect the plane with the best kill ratio of all time not to be so bad in a sim. At least, I think it's bad, but maybe I'm just doing something wrong.
According to a lot of stuff I read (although questionable objectivity) about the F6F, the Hellcat should do better in a zoom climb than a Zeke, but doing this online makes the letters on my 'ctrl' and 'e' keys fade even more! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Are there any people out there who actually think the F6F is a great plane to fly online and who do get a lot of kills in it (or at least know how to survive)?

More in general, I know how to dogfight Japanese planes ( dive down, shoot and keep diving... dont turn!), but sometimes I do get caught up in something of a furball. Consequently, some times I end up with a Zeke on my six. Are there any tactics on shaking off a Zero? I know that in real life you should dive down steeply and turn to the right at high speeds, a manoeuver the Zeke couldn't follow. This doesn't seem to work online though. Diving down and running away just extends my virtual lifespan by a couple of minutes, but eventually, the Zeke will catch up with me and shoot me down (I manage to get away sometimes, if I'm really lucky). Maybe this is why the USN pilots always flew in pairs... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif Any help on this will be most appreciated. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TinyTim
07-18-2008, 02:11 PM
Your instincts are correct, F6F is a hard plane for dueling with zekes. However, when flown in pairs or more, it devastates early japanese fighters like Ki-43/61 and Zero. Also, F6F is much better versus zeros on full real servers, where you can sneak upon them unnoticed, especially because F6F is a lot faster than zero.

Radiators indeed do not work, meaning they do create drag if opened, but they don't cool the engine down, so opening them has no point. Good thing about it is, that R-2800 can overheat for about 10 minutes before it damages.

It's weird that you can't outrun zeros, you should with ease.

Tips:
1. Never ever enter a zero infested battle area lower than 5km.
2. Do not forget to use supercharger.
3. Whenever you loose altitude advantage, retreat (shallow, high speed dive towards base), climb back up, and re-enter battle zone.
4. Dive, shoot, zoomclimb and DO NOT turn with them.
5. If you are alone and get a zero on your 6, dive and run like hell towards friendlies/base
6. If you fly with a buddy and get someone on your 6, dive in a direction away from your teammate, level out and start a shallow climb, so you drag him for your mate to bag him.

Bottom line: teamwork is the key. It's like flying a Fw190 versus Spits.

Xiolablu3
07-18-2008, 02:16 PM
The Hellcat is quite rugged, but no plane will withstand too many 20mm hits from the Zero.

Wasnt it calculated that on average it took 4-5 hits from a 20mm to down a fighter?

No matter how rugged, even the P47, you still need some luck in order to withstand a few 20mm. If you are especially unlucky, even one 20mm hit can take down your P47 if it hits the right place.

I know this doesnt apply to you, but some people tend to take especially extrodinary survival stories which happened to one pilot and think they should apply to all planes. its a fact that for every pilot who withstood 40 20mm hits to his P47, there are is another who was killed with a single hit.

Yes the F6F was a rugged aircraft, but any aircraft will go down with a single hit to the right place.


Wjhat you need to remember is that it will never compete in a slow turning dual with Zeros, thats not the way to fight with eh 'cats'. You need to keep the fight at a high speed and try not to bleed off your energy. You CAN risk turning with Zeros, however you must do it at very high speeds if you want to ensure success. If you are diving hard at 550+kph then you will surely outturn him, however you will also be bleeding off energy in the turn so you can quickly get down to a speed where the tables are turned if you are not careful.

VW-IceFire
07-18-2008, 03:26 PM
I definitely in the camp that loves the Hellcat and I can generally do well in it. The Hellcat is the plane where I achieved the most number of kills in a single sortie...8. They were all Zeros of the A6M3 or A6M5 variety.

Yes the Hellcat does seem a bit underpowered and I think in all fairness its a big buggered up in the modeling in that its top speed is too low. Its still better in its historical attributes versus the Zero...but its also important to remember that in real life the A6M5 and the F6F-3 are not that far apart in their performance attributes. At low altitude the differences are smaller than most normally acknowledge. Whats really different between the two is that the Hellcat is rugged, it has a greater ammo capacity, has the potential to down more enemy planes in a single sortie, and it can dive faster with greater authority than the Zero can.

The key thing is to employ the Hellcat like the USN pilots did. USN pilots were well trained, had quite a bit of practice in the art of deflection shooting, and they worked well in teams of two or more. Find a wingman and use the Hellcats diving and high speed maneuverability to help you.

Never try to outclimb a Zero when he's at your six and in gun range. Yes that will get you shot down and hitting the Ctrl E key. The difference in climb is only really different above about 20,000 feet (or 6000 meters) in both real life and in the sim. In the sim, because the Hellcat is slower than it should be, this margin for error is also smaller so if you do something too soon or pull up with the Zero at your six its going to be a bit easier than in real life. Still its not something you should do either way....always have allot of separation before you start to try and outclimb any opponent as its very easy to cut the corner and gain firing solution (no matter what the two planes are really).

Yes the radiator is bugged and will not work properly. Keep it closed as its useless. I like to vary prop pitch between 80% and 100% (80% when cooling). I also don't ever go above 100% unless its combat or initial takeoff. Cruise at 90 so that your engine is cool when going into combat....then ramp it up. Fortunately the engine is tough and will take overheat for several minutes.

Its tough but will get cut apart if hit hard by a Zero or anything else with big cannons. The key thing is that if its hammered away at and you don't loose something important...its likely to stay airborne for a while. It can take a hit to the engine and still fly a good distance, it can take hits to the wing and fuselage and keep going...it wont handle well but it'll be fine. If a Zero were hit in the same way you can bet on a fuel tank fire or the wing falling off.

Stick with it...its a great plane to learn, allot of fun to fly, but its challenging in its own ways.

thefruitbat
07-18-2008, 04:04 PM
I would only repeat what TT and icefire said. The way the game models engine overheat and damage is, is that you get a specific time, plane to plane, at which after the overheat message has appeared, you get damage to your engine. For the hellcat and corsair, not sure about the wildcat, you get 10 mins from the overheat sign, the most of any plane in the game.

As long as you make that message dissapear before 10 mins ie throttle right down, rads open, prop pitch lowered, even if only for a moment, you then get again 10 mins from when it appears again etc. etc.

The only other thing i'll say, is that you have to learn to shoot at your deflection range. All the USN planes have wing mounted guns, which means you have to be much more precise with your shooting range, than nose mounted guns, as you have horozontal as well as vertical deflection to contend with.

Different people have diff preferences, but 200m is my max convergance setting for 50's.

If you hit at your convergance distance, 50's are great, espescially in the PTO, but outside you will not be anywhere near as effective, as if say you were firing a noob fw190 with 4 20mm cannons, where you only need to fire in the general direction.

I have to say, i like flying the hellcat more than the corsair, even though people say its a bit nerfed compared to rl. Even so, i still think this game, represents well what it was, a zero killer. If you could see behind you in the corsair i'd fly that, as speed is life, but the game is what we have.

If you could see behind you in the tempest like the 51d (both bubble tops) nothing would touch it, but thats life http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

cheers fruitbat

anarchy52
07-18-2008, 04:26 PM
I really do not understand what the problem is.
Hellcat is untouchable by zero at any altitude. In fact Hellcat flying at combat power is significantly faster then Zero running on emergency power. That fact alone makes it superior. To put it in perspective it's similar difference in speed as Bf-109G6 has over Hurricane.

As for ruggedness, it can take obscene amount of hits from weak Japanese 20mm and Your perception of "few hits" was probably a full burst of twin 20mm at convergence range. It is more or less invulnerable to MG fire. See this track, I just let the AI shoot me to show you how much it can take:
http://marvin.kset.org/~riddler/quick0018.ntrk (http://marvin.kset.org/%7Eriddler/quick0018.ntrk)

For underpowered, you must keep in mind that Hellcat was a VERY heavy aircraft weighting about 2,5 TIMES more then Zero.

all in all, You hold all the cards except turning at low speed (below 350km/h) and climbing at less then 300km/h.

P.S. most of the above does not apply to fighting AI. Against AI do what you do against any AI driven plane: get him lower, out turn him and shoot him down. Escaping by dive from AI isn't as effective as one would expect.

R_Target
07-18-2008, 04:28 PM
Maddox Hellcat at 110% throttle/WEP only performs at actual Hellcat Military Power rating, so yes, it's underpowered. It's also pretty fragile. The four outboard MGs have ten seconds less firing time than the inboard two, but the plane still carries the weight of the unshootable bullets. Climb and turn are adequate. Switch supercharger at 6000ft. and 17,000ft. If you experiment with convergence and find what range fits your style, you'll get good hits on anything but the strangely invulnerable Shiden-Kai.

It's also probably worth remembering that some of the things that made the Hellcat such a great plane-easy to build, easy to fly, easy to land, and low maintenance downtime-don't mean beans in a flight sim.

anarchy52
07-18-2008, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by R_Target:
Maddox Hellcat at 110% throttle/WEP only performs at actual Hellcat Military Power rating, so yes, it's underpowered.

Most sources cite F6F-5 doing 610 km/h max, Maddox F6F-5 does ~615 @ 7k. So, no it does not feel underpowered.

As for fragility, check the track.

Pigeon_
07-18-2008, 04:49 PM
Thanks for the great tips guys! I really appreciate it and I can't wait to fly the Hellcat again! I think most of my problems were caused by the fact that I didn't knew that I could fly with the engine overheating all the time. At first, this sounded a bit like cheating to me, but if you consider that the F6F is underpowered, it's ok, I guess... I think flying with full power will solve a lot of my problems.

I think a lot of people have given up on the Hellcat, because it's underpowered, but I really like the real plane and all the legendary stories about it. That's why I kept flying it, because I really enjoyed the idea of flying the Hellcat and it somehow connected me with the stories of the real pilots. I think that's a really great thing this sim can do for you. In fact, this is why I like all USN planes and I will continue to fly them. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

thefruitbat
07-18-2008, 04:55 PM
According to il2 compare, there is not a single Zero that at 110% can fly faster than a hellcat, at 100% at any altitude.

Where people go wrong, is thinking that this means that they can outclimb a zero as they are quicker.

Depending on the model, there are several zeros that can outclimb the hellcat at there best climb speed, at certain altitudes. The only way to climb against a zero is a fast climb close to there top speed, where they have no energy left for climb, unlike yourself. This is much the same as say 190 v spit, or even a 109e4 v i16 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Just because you have more power and are faster, dosen't mean you hold all the cards, just the ones that are the most important if you were flying for real.

fruitbat

R_Target
07-18-2008, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
Most sources cite F6F-5 doing 610 km/h max, Maddox F6F-5 does ~615 @ 7k. So, no it does not feel underpowered.

Matching top speed at FTH is nice, but it doesn't mean that's it's not 20 knots too slow between 5,000ft and 15,000ft. Which is to say, IL2 WEP corresponds to actual F6F Military Power rating.

TinyTim
07-18-2008, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
Depending on the model, there are several zeros that can outclimb the hellcat at there best climb speed, at certain altitudes. The only way to climb against a zero is a fast climb close to there top speed, where they have no energy left for climb, unlike yourself. This is much the same as say 190 v spit, or even a 109e4 v i16 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


That's true but smart zeke pilot will not naively insist in a high speed shallow climb. He will slow down to his optimal climbing speed and climb above you instead.

thefruitbat
07-18-2008, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
Depending on the model, there are several zeros that can outclimb the hellcat at there best climb speed, at certain altitudes. The only way to climb against a zero is a fast climb close to there top speed, where they have no energy left for climb, unlike yourself. This is much the same as say 190 v spit, or even a 109e4 v i16 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


That's true but smart zeke pilot will not naively insist in a high speed shallow climb. He will slow down to his optimal climbing speed and climb above you instead. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, i was looking at it from the hellcats view, not the zekes. As the hellcat pilot, you have the choice's though. Extend and leave the fight, or choose to continue to fight.

The Zeke can only fight. In game this matters little, in real life.....

I once posted a question here, a couple of years ago, about what should you do if you are in a faster plane vs a better climbing plane equal E. To me this is the hardest match if your opponent knows what they are doing.

I've since concluded that if you can see that they know what they are doing, leave them to it, and bugger off. if not there yours.

I would always prefer to fly the plane where i have the choice, even if the other plane is the better dogfighter, speed is life.

fruitbat

RegRag1977
07-18-2008, 06:14 PM
I would always prefer to fly the plane where i have the choice, even if the other plane is the better dogfighter, speed is life.


Agree 100%

LEXX_Luthor
07-18-2008, 07:18 PM
Agree 200%

This was learned back in WW1. I like to think of SPAD, or maybe Albatros DII as the first heavy fighters. The triplanes were more manueverable, and could climb like a hydrogen party balloon (would be some fun), but were very slow and quickly rubbed out of service, as were biplanes as well two decades later, soon followed by monoplane props.

KrashanTopolova
07-18-2008, 07:35 PM
As for the Zero (historically)...RAAF pilots in p-40s if they had a Zero on their six would dive then steepen the dive then steepen the dive again...and the tail of the Zero would fall off it it kept chasing!

Wing Commander **** Cresswell accounted for two Zeros this way and did not have to fire a shot.

test out the game model...it may well not model this airframe characteristic of the Zero (or the P-40 for that matter)

The Zero could not roll out to port from a dive very well at all.

Test that out in game and see if it's there.

Despite opinions on the forum any plane can turn fight with any other if flown properly.

Mind you...it appears the P-40, though no slouch anywhere, was a different fighter (far faster and better) in the Pacific theatre (and the Western Desert)...whether this was due to climate, logistics, pilot skill or whatever I leave to others.

Korolov1986
07-18-2008, 10:51 PM
Hellcat disadvantages:
- Missing ammo for four of the six guns
- Radiator busted
- Slow contemporary speed
- Limited bomb load compared to F4U-1D
- Poor acceleration

Hellcat advantages:
- ENDURANCE!!!!!!!
- Altitude performance (3 stage supercharger!)
- Can take off a stationary carrier with a considerable bomb load
- Capable of diving to high speed

A6M5a disadvantages:
- A kick in the shin will blow it up
- Weak machine guns; poor cannons
- Greenhouse cockpit is a PITA
- Performance only remains good up to 20,000ft
- Hates speed, roll rate sucks
- Don't even think about ground attack defended by anything greater than a kid and a BB gun

A6M5a advantages:
- Poor cannon is still cannon!
- Range is excellent
- Climb rate is excellent
- Below 20,000ft, retains excellent handling
- Slow speed characteristics are excellent

Keep in mind... IRL the A6M2 series was preferred over later series because it was lighter and thus more maneuverable. A6M2 is a very different plane from the later series, and if you compare the A6M2 to the Hellcat, the Hellcat will definitely come out on top in everything except climb and low speed agility.

In IL2 when you get to the A6M5b and greater, they have more power and boost to their engines in addition to heavier armament. These later series Zekes are the ones you can get into a turn fight with as the added weight of their armor and weapons really bogs them down. They will still accelerate better than a F6F, but climb rates are almost identical between the the later series A6M and the F6F.

Bear in mind the F6F is not a fast plane. It's faster than a Zeke, but almost everything past '42 is faster than a Zeke. There's several reasons the Navy adopted the F4U later in the war.

Xiolablu3
07-19-2008, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by RegRag1977:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I would always prefer to fly the plane where i have the choice, even if the other plane is the better dogfighter, speed is life.


Agree 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Agree 50%

Speed is great for the 'hunter' fighter pilot, but for a plane which cannot just run away, and has a mission to protect certain assets like an airfield or bombers or ships at all costs.

A pilot can not always run away to save his plane.

Speed is great, but its certainly not the only consideration. CLimb rate, turn rate, roll rate, dive rate, can all be used to beat the enemy in certain circumstances.

See Adolf Gallands comments when Goering asked him to stay with the bombers in the Battle OF Britain :-

'Galland : They kept complaining to Goering, who listened to them. For more than forty minutes outside his train Goering blamed Moelders and myself:

.........."What do you want?"

.........."I can't even slow down to the bomber speed, without sacrificing all my mobility."

.........."What? You have the best fighter in the world!"

And this was the occasion that, when Goering asked Moelders and myself what he could do to improve the capability of our wings, Moelders wanted his wing equipped with the DB 601N, and I said I wanted a wing of Spitfires. Of course, that was the end of the discussion.

Caldwell: Why, exactly, did you say that?

Galland: Why? He said we had the best fighter in the world. I said that the Spitfire was better able to slow down, because of its lower wing loading. It was also better able to turn at lower speeds. Our advantage was not in turning, but in flying straight ahead, diving, and climbing. Our turns were not tight enough. So when he said, "We have the best fighter in the world! Don't blame me!" I tried to tell him otherwise.'



You cannot always just run away in war once you are at a disadvantage, if you must stay and fight at all costs then a better turn rate may be preferable to a few extra mph top speed, as in Gallands case above.

willyvic
07-19-2008, 06:32 AM
Originally posted by Pigeon_:
...I think flying with full power will solve a lot of my problems...



IMHO, this is not a wise move. Learning to utilize your aircrafts advantages throughout the entire power range would be more beneficial. You will find that fighting at "full power" is a very limiting experience.


And unless your a loner, always endeavor to fly with a wingy in combat.

WV

Kettenhunde
07-19-2008, 09:10 PM
You cannot always just run away in war once you are at a disadvantage, if you must stay and fight at all costs then a better turn rate may be preferable to a few extra mph top speed, as in Gallands case above.


Hi Xio,


I think you might be reading more into Galland's reply than it is really there.

Galland was not asking for a fighter with a better level turn ability.

He was asking for the operational freedom to use his aircraft's strengths. An entirely different point from the one you are trying to make.

Do you want the conversation as printed in JG 26 War Diaries quoting Galland from the interview?

All the best,

Crumpp

TinyTim
07-19-2008, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by willyvic:
And unless your a loner, always endeavor to fly with a wingy in combat.


+1000

This is never stressed out enough.

Teamwork is easiest the greatest weapon planes like F6F or Fw190 have versus slower, but nimbler and faster climbers like Zeros and Spits or Yaks. This types favor 1v1 dogfighting at which they excell, so a smart zero pilot will try to draw you into an isolated 1v1 dogfighting contest. F6Fs however excell when flown together, and that's not due to numbers.

While it can be hard to win 1v1 in these planes, odds already became more than even in 2v2, now if you take 4 hellcats, fly them together, possibly on comms, and you can butcher 8 zeros with drag'n'bag tactics.

Once (online) I saw a brace of well flown Fw-190A6s without initial E advantage on a late war russian front bag up 5 La-5FNs and Yak-3s (me being in one of these) in a matter of minutes. 1v1, they wouldn't stand a chance. But two were already enough to be able to kill 5 of us for no loss in return.

M_Gunz
07-20-2008, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
According to il2 compare, there is not a single Zero that at 110% can fly faster than a hellcat, at 100% at any altitude.

Where people go wrong, is thinking that this means that they can outclimb a zero as they are quicker.

Actually if the climb is made close to, at or above the full speed of the Zero then it will
out-sustained-climb the Zero but only at speeds where the Zero can barely or not climb at all.

It would probably be a stupid thing to do in guns range without a bit of spiral in the climb
and even then he might get one shot but that would be it. If he follows and doesn't make that
shot then he's in deep doodoo.

M_Gunz
07-20-2008, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
Depending on the model, there are several zeros that can outclimb the hellcat at there best climb speed, at certain altitudes. The only way to climb against a zero is a fast climb close to there top speed, where they have no energy left for climb, unlike yourself. This is much the same as say 190 v spit, or even a 109e4 v i16 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


That's true but smart zeke pilot will not naively insist in a high speed shallow climb. He will slow down to his optimal climbing speed and climb above you instead. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

At which point you lose him off your tail.
It is possible to climb away from a Zero in a Hellcat, n'est pas?

TinyTim
07-20-2008, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
It is possible to climb away from a Zero in a Hellcat, n'est pas?

Not sure you can, at least below 20k. Above 20k when 3rd stage kicks in, F6F should toy 1v1 with a zeke, but frankly I can't recall many dogfights and this matchup that high. If a hellcat climbs in a shallow high speed climb, and a smart zero pilot slows down to his optimal climbing speed and climbs, then a 'cat isn't really outclimbing a zeke. It's merely outdistancing him, while both gain altitude.

A smart zero pilot however will climb climb climb on every possible moment, for if he lets a Hellcat climb above him, he is dead. I don't really think an F6F can effectively outclimb a well flown zero (that's a zero that does not follow stupidly into a shallow high speed climb) at any altitude below 20k, given initial E state to be equal. Both climb roughly equally fast, but with different climbing speeds.

M_Gunz
07-20-2008, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by Pigeon_:
one would expect the plane with the best kill ratio of all time not to be so bad in a sim.

Trying to base expectations of performance on kills is wrong in many ways, Pigeon.

Just to start with, by the time the Hellcat was operational the best IJN pilots were mostly gone.

You need to take in pilot qualities, doctrine and numbers just to begin with.

Kills do not equal performance. No way.
Only thing worse is "who won the war?".

LEBillfish
07-20-2008, 01:13 AM
I don't care if you're in a Me-262 or a J8, F6F included.........If you're in a turning fight you goofed up.

Now don't get me wrong, you might sneak up on anothers tail that requires a bit of a turn....Yet if that turn robs your plane of its advantages, then you just goofed again.

Hit your opponent.......Then reset up checking all cons and so on first being absolutly sure of your next pass....Take the time needed....Don't worry about will Bob kill thief steal your kill...Do your work and make the fight run at your pace.

In this case I'd be flying an A6M as Hellcats and the like are not my style......In the end I'm going to try and force you to fly my fight...Don't let me. Force me to fly yours as I cannot run away, I'm in this fight till the bitter end.

.....and if you turn with me, that end means my victory.

K2

M_Gunz
07-20-2008, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
It is possible to climb away from a Zero in a Hellcat, n'est pas?

Not sure you can, at least below 20k. Above 20k when 3rd stage kicks in, F6F should toy 1v1 with a zeke, but frankly I can't recall many dogfights and this matchup that high. If a hellcat climbs in a shallow high speed climb, and a smart zero pilot slows down to his optimal climbing speed and climbs, then a 'cat isn't really outclimbing a zeke. It's merely outdistancing him, while both gain altitude.

A smart zero pilot however will climb climb climb on every possible moment, for if he lets a Hellcat climb above him, he is dead. I don't really think an F6F can effectively outclimb a well flown zero (that's a zero that does not follow stupidly into a shallow high speed climb) at any altitude below 20k, given initial E state to be equal. Both climb roughly equally fast, but with different climbing speeds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He can climb, climb, climb while you circle, circle, circle (at distance) but eventually he
will have climbed above 20k -- won't he?

If he can climb +and+ escape before the Hellcat could catch up, it wouldn't be a trap.
Such was possible for Werner Voss in his DrI yet he stayed in the fight that killed him.

JtD
07-20-2008, 12:58 PM
The F6F can outclimb the A6M if you take engine overheat times into account. To get the maximum out of the plane, the A6M can either fly 105-108% rads open without overheat, or 110% rads closed with severe overheat. F6F you will usually fly 110% rads closed. The A6M's engine will either stop working 6 minutes before the F6F's does, or the climb rate will go down by about 2m/s. So you will be able to climb with it between 3000 and 4500 and outclimb it above 6000 meters. As the best climb speed of the A6M is slightly lower than that of the F6F, you will either gain separation or an altitude advantage. You can use separation to come back at the A6M co altitude and use the tremendously superior zoomclimb of the F6F to eventually get the advantage.

I tend to fight the A6M at that altitude band of 3000 to 4500 meters if I can and against most online pilots it is not really hard. The A6M3, A6M5, A6M5a and A6M5b are the only models you have to worry about anyway. The other ones are plain junk.

TinyTim
07-20-2008, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
You can use separation to come back at the A6M co altitude and use the tremendously superior zoomclimb of the F6F to eventually get the advantage.


While I do agree with most of your post, alow me to ask: what do you mean by tremendously superior?

I don't even find it superior, let alone tremendously (athough it should be according to RL). Do you mean both planes start zoomclimbing at their respective maximum or at equal speed?

(In fact - that's what I consider one of the bigest flaws of this sim - fighters, that should zoom better, don't)

Xiolablu3
07-20-2008, 03:21 PM
DOnt forget the Zekes terrible roll rate at mid-high speeds.

A diving scissors at high speeds should have him floundering if he tries to follow.

JtD
07-20-2008, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by TinyTim:

While I do agree with most of your post, alow me to ask: what do you mean by tremendously superior?

I don't even find it superior, let alone tremendously (athough it should be according to RL). Do you mean both planes start zoomclimbing at their respective maximum or at equal speed?

(In fact - that's what I consider one of the bigest flaws of this sim - fighters, that should zoom better, don't)

I mean that one zoom climb is enough to put you into the commanding position for the rest of the fight.

Once you turn around and go head on, the A6M will have to stop climbing, because if it doesn't you'll get a free shot at it (unless you too keep climbing). Head on is already almost won for the F6F. Without a shooting situation the F6F will have picked up more speed by the time the planes pass each other, not necessarily top speed for both, but a higher speed for the F6F, which will bring it up to a higher altitude. If the A6M comes up with you, it will drop down sooner, the F6F on it's tail. If the A6M doesn't, the F6F loops, is on the A6M's six and climbing same rate at higher speed.

The difference in a zoom climb cannot be expected to be several hundred meters. Folks who think that zoom climbs are improperly modeled in game usually have unrealistic expectations. There are issues with certain individual planes, but the zoom climb as such works about as it should.

M_Gunz
07-20-2008, 07:12 PM
Zoom each at the combat speed of each, not the same speed.
It has been shown here already that in zoom height, speed factor is the one squared.
If I zoom with 10% more speed I should get about 20% more zoom, if I don't F it up at the stick.

KrashanTopolova
07-20-2008, 08:17 PM
Zeke/Zero/A6M/ZeroSen/Reisen/Rei Sentoki...call it what you will; has a secret for its tight turning circle.

I've pointed this out before: its wingtips were turned up at the back and down at the front. This allowed it to fly at a higher angle of attack than its contemporaries on both sides.

It was not the fastest fighter...it did not need to be. it was not underpowered in relation to its airframe. It's pilots were never constrained to diving into an attack, attacking and climbing up into the sun to begin another diving attack.

It had about 1680 kg lifted by 12m span adapted wings. it could zoom climb with the best. The only Major advantages the F6F had over the Zero was that it was more rugged and had a much better operational ceiling. The Rei Sentoki was comparatively fragile but the IJN saw no need to introduce new types into the Fleet Air Arm.

I reject the notion that it was made obsolete by improving US aircraft technology and bust the myth of F6F flight superiority by simply pointing out that the Zero's performance record late in the war was more influenced by the loss of experienced pilots who could get the best out of the Zero. In fact I reject everyone else's idea of reality and substitute my own as a matter of habit.

Korolov1986
07-20-2008, 09:33 PM
KrashanTopolova, you're right; the A6M was a excellent aircraft, and it proved it for the better part of the war in the pacific. It's failure is due primarily to the tactics and strategies of the pilots - both green and veterans. They failed to come up with counters to the hit-and-run style adopted by the western nations, where the Zeke simply was unable to compete. If the Zeke's style of fighting had remained superior to all other forms, then the Japanese would not have rushed aircraft such as the J2M and Ki-84 into service.

Let's also not forget that the Ki-27 was initially favored over the Ki-43, despite the latter's advantages (at the cost of maneuverability) over the former.

JtD
07-20-2008, 10:22 PM
Wing twist is not a feature that is unique to the A6M.

The zoom climb of the A6M is pretty poor and the main advantages of the Hellcat were higher speed and better high speed maneuverability.

LEBillfish
07-20-2008, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Korolov1986:
KrashanTopolova, you're right; the A6M was a excellent aircraft, and it proved it for the better part of the war in the pacific. It's failure is due primarily to the tactics and strategies of the pilots - both green and veterans. They failed to come up with counters to the hit-and-run style adopted by the western nations, where the Zeke simply was unable to compete. If the Zeke's style of fighting had remained superior to all other forms, then the Japanese would not have rushed aircraft such as the J2M and Ki-84 into service.

Let's also not forget that the Ki-27 was initially favored over the Ki-43, despite the latter's advantages (at the cost of maneuverability) over the former.


Disagree.........Though roll here is porked for ALL aircraft (and roll much more important then "turning" for all as well)......I believe it really simply boils down to what is really an aircraft designed for lower speeds, going unchanged when design due to better power plants shifted to higher speed designs.

You might make the plane faster yet if faster loses you all your advantages then you just made the plane worse.

Tactics will only take you so far, as eventually tactical ability reaches its own apex.....and if skill is the same, then you're only left with the plane.

Force that aircraft out of its environment or envelope....and you have them.

There is no reason for a F6F to fight an A6M on its own terms and visa versa....The trick is to get the other pilot to.

K2

WTE_Galway
07-20-2008, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:

Force that aircraft out of its environment or envelope....and you have them.

There is no reason for a F6F to fight an A6M on its own terms and visa versa....The trick is to get the other pilot to.

K2

Indeed and its the point in the envelope where you have the greatest relative advantage that matters. People get obsessed with things like "best turn speed" implying this is the speed to always use with this particular ride ... whilst what is actually important is what gives you the best relative advantage and that may change for different bandits.

R_Target
07-21-2008, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by KrashanTopolova:
it was not underpowered in relation to its airframe.

The designer of the Type 0 fighter disagrees:


most of the Zero's problems can be traced to it's underpowered engine.

-Jiro Horikoshi

From Eagles of Mitsubishi, ISBN B000NDOQ3Q.