PDA

View Full Version : Very One Sided (Spoilers)



BenC88
11-26-2007, 06:39 PM
I have kept up with this game for 3 years and could not wait to play it. I bought it and loved every second of it. But from all of the interviews that i have seen or read, Jade or Patrice said this game does not take a religious side. But from the game you would think otherwise. You later find out that the 9 targets are just people who knew of the Peace of Eden therefore your Master wants them dead. This was not for the Crusades sake but for his, and this was not for religious reasons. But through the story you find out that this "Peace of Eden" could control mens thoughts and make them see and believe in things that are not there. Dr. Vidic tries to disprove the Bible, then in one of the computers it says that the "Peace of Eden" has disproved the Bible, not the Koran (was not mentioned). Your Master says the Red Sea was not split (Bible reference), Jesus did not turn water to wine (Bible reference), there was no flood (Bible reference), the Earth was not made in seven days (Bible reference). Clearly all of those are from the Bible and none from the book of Muslim belief, the Koran. They seem to have some sort a message that they are trying to convey. And this would not be better if they did try to disprove both but the Bible and the believers of it have been a target in media for a long time. If someone says something bad about Islam then it is wrong but when it comes to Christianity it is sociably acceptable.

I am a Christian and I know you may think my view of this is skewed on this matter but i am trying to look at this from a neutral stand point. I did not see anything in this game's story but they same old, everyday, Bible bashing.

Other than that I really liked they game.

Please no flaming, just rational discussion.

avsrule247
11-26-2007, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by BenC88:
I have kept up with this game for 3 years and could not wait to play it. Iblah blah blah

I am Christian as well, but I look at this game as a movie and it doesn't effect me at all.

I think when the developers said that they do not take a religious side, they meant that the REAL people behind the scenes do not take a religious side, just as the disclaimer at the begining of the game says. The story in the game obviously has a lot of Bible bashing but the developers do not take a side. I am pretty sure this is what they meant.

Tela
11-26-2007, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by avsrule247:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BenC88:
I have kept up with this game for 3 years and could not wait to play it. Iblah blah blah

I am Christian as well, but I look at this game as a movie and it doesn't effect me at all.

I think when the developers said that they do not take a religious side, they meant that the REAL people behind the scenes do not take a religious side, just as the disclaimer at the begining of the game says. The story in the game obviously has a lot of Bible bashing but the developers do not take a side. I am pretty sure this is what they meant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

I have to wonder something...

Could the Piece of Eden be a bit like the One Ring? Like it has something of a mind of its own? Corrupts the mind of its holder? Altair DID say that, for some strange reason, he could not bring himself to destroy it...

And, later, they might find out that Abstergo, in their thinking, and Al Mualim, in HIS thinking, were wrong.

Kieran_Y
11-26-2007, 07:04 PM
Bible bashing is fine, because Christians don't go running out into the street, burning flags and effigies of said offender. They also don't shout death threats and go about blowing themselves up in public and killing others in the process.

Hassan-Sabbah
11-26-2007, 07:04 PM
(No flame intended) Are you familliar with the Quran? Muslims also believe in the things quoted above (ie; The Flood, Eden, 7 day creation, etc. etc.) So, if these things were "disproved," that would apply to the Old Testament (Torah), the New Testament AND the Quran.

As far as the "wine" stuff goes, Muslims believe in Jesus (Isa), but as a Prophet, NOT as a direct son or manifestaion in the flesh of God.

Being neutral (I do not subscribe to any religion) I took it for granted that it applied to all equally.

AldirTheKnight
11-26-2007, 07:05 PM
Al Mualim saying "My precioussss" every 5 minutes??? no!

Tela
11-26-2007, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by AldirTheKnight:
Al Mualim saying "My precioussss" every 5 minutes??? no!

Not what I meant! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

Hassan-Sabbah
11-26-2007, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Kieran_Y:
Bible bashing is fine, because Christians don't go running out into the street, burning flags and effigies of said offender. They also don't shout death threats and go about blowing themselves up in public and killing others in the process.

Hmmm...really?
I do not think this thread should be turned into a "which religion" is better pissing game.

A fanatic is a fanatic, whether they call themselves a Muslim, Christian or a Jew. ALL religions have bad apples (mind the pun).

Kieran_Y
11-26-2007, 07:12 PM
its probably because we watch only western news networks on our televisions, but I can't recall how many times Jesus has been publicly ridiculed on various network shows with no death threats against the network. On the other hand the Prophet Mohammed? Best not even say his name if you're not Muslim.

"ALL religions have bad apples" and some batches are larger(much larger) than others.

Hassan-Sabbah
11-26-2007, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Kieran_Y:
its probably because we watch only western news networks on our televisions, but I can't recall how many times Jesus has been publicly ridiculed on various network shows with no death threats against the network. On the other hand the Prophet Mohammed? Best not even say his name if you're not Muslim.

True, to an extent.
It should also be remembered that Islam is a relatively "young" religion compared to Christianity.

Christians certainly did their share of "killing in the name of" if you pay attention to history...

Tela
11-26-2007, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Kieran_Y:
its probably because we watch only western news networks on our televisions, but I can't recall how many times Jesus has been publicly ridiculed on various network shows with no death threats against the network. On the other hand the Prophet Mohammed? Best not even say his name if you're not Muslim.

?
I've heard of pleanty of bashing(some coming from my family, myself NOT included) to networks when a show bashes( ridicules, etc...) Jesus.

Hassan-Sabbah
11-26-2007, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Kieran_Y:

"ALL religions have bad apples" and some batches are larger(much larger) than others.

And again, what constitutes "larger" than?

If we want to go by numbers, I think you need to look back at your religion's history (Inquisition, Witch trials, Crusades)...

Just because Christianity has, somewhat, worked the kinks out relatively recently, does not absolve it from it's past.

Though, as much as I enjoy debating Fairy tales (one way or the other), I do not think that was the OPs intent for this thread.

sweetlou280
11-26-2007, 07:36 PM
Whats up Hassan, its good to be in another religious(of sorts) debate with you.
Ok i'm a christian...yes this game doesn't say anything good about christianity and yes i can see how it could be viewed as bashing. But the way I see it it was a brilliant story.
Millions upon millions of people have been killed because they believed that the Bible is God's word. Even today christians are dieing for what they believe. So what could be a better story then something that goes against the best selling book of all time(the bible for those who don't catch onto things very well)?
I applaud Ubisoft for being so daring, I can't wait to see where they are going with it.

Malocchio21
11-26-2007, 07:39 PM
As Hassan-Sabbah said whatever bashing Vidic did, applies to all 3 religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

As for the problems amongst the 3 religions, they have all had or have their issues and to be quite honest the fact that people have fought and are still fighting over these religions is absolutley ridiculous because they are all based off of the same "Old Testament." All problems between the 3 have been MAN MADE...amazing huh?

Kieran_Y
11-26-2007, 07:44 PM
My argument is for the present day situation. I am fairly certain that Islam and Christianity are EXACTLY the same age. Why is it that both groups have had over 2000 years to mature and one group still appears to be stuck in 1191.

sweetlou280
11-26-2007, 07:45 PM
christianity is 600 years older.

Hassan-Sabbah
11-26-2007, 07:46 PM
@Sweetlou
Hey there, friend! Yes, hopefuly it will not get as drown out this time! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

@Malocchio21
Exactly!
If people who claim to be "religious" would spend more time worrying about God and their fellow man, 98% of the problems would not exist.

But, back on topic. I think the idea behind the story was "ALL religions" were contrived by a handful of men to keep the "herd" under control. As I saw it, it did not imply any one religion at the exclusion of others.

Malocchio21
11-26-2007, 07:48 PM
Reasons for problems between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam...(not conclusive)

Greed, Power, Land, Hate, MISUNDERSTANDING, human idiocy, fame...

These apply to all 3, not just Christians, Jews or Muslims.

I was raised Catholic, yet I detest all religious fighting because it destroys the meaning of religion in the first place. All 3 religions believe in THE SAME GOD...they just need to learn to deal with that fact.

sweetlou280
11-26-2007, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Hassan-Sabbah:
But, back on topic. I think the idea behind the story was "ALL religions" were contrived by a handful of men to keep the "herd" under control. As I saw it, it did not imply any one religion at the exclusion of others.

Yes it did say all religions...but there were a couple of lines from Al Mulim like, "...gave a poor commoner the ability to turn water to wine." and other things like that that were pointed at christianity specifically that would take away from Jesus's divinity. But I'm not flaming just showing why some might see it as christian bashing.

Malocchio21
11-26-2007, 07:56 PM
Yea he said that when explaining the Piece of Eden...which is of course all part of the story, therefore I don't really see that as bashing, just part of the story...I doubt there is really an object which grants its owner powers...but Nothing is True and Everything is Permitted right?? We could get into conspiracies too I guess...multi-topic thread! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

sweetlou280
11-26-2007, 08:03 PM
True Hassan, but it was the fact that everything that he said could be aimed towards christians is what caused the "bashing" viewpoint. You see what I am saying.

Hassan-Sabbah
11-26-2007, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Hassan-Sabbah:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kieran_Y:
My argument is for the present day situation. I am fairly certain that Islam and Christianity are EXACTLY the same age. Why is it that both groups have had over 2000 years to mature and one group still appears to be stuck in 1191.

Well, that "certainty" would be misplaced. Christianity is several hundred years older than Islam. You are also failing to take into account sociological factors inherent in the middle east (just for the record, Muslims do not just live in the middle east).

At one point in history, Islam was the most "enlightened" of the three big Boys of religion. You owe your modern number system, astronomy, chemistry, medicine, certain aspects of art, muscic, literature, and more to Islamic culture. While european Christians were bussying themselfs burning Heretics and plotting wars under the guise of God, Muslims were expanding man's potentiality.

Unfortunately, the rulers of Islam saw things differently (as usually happens..."The Dragon's Body goes where it's head goes)and pretty much kept that culture in a state of inertia for hundreds of years.

And the reason I bring all this up is it is not possible to understand the present with accounting for the past. Also, To quote the Nazarene "Let he who is without sin be the first to cast the stone." As you are presenting yourself as one who wants to compare religions in terms of "who is more blood thirsty," NONE of the big Three are without sin.

quote:
Originally posted by sweetlou280:

"Yes it did say all religions...but there were a couple of lines from Al Mulim like, "...gave a poor commoner the ability to turn water to wine." and other things like that that were pointed at christianity specifically that would take away from Jesus's divinity. But I'm not flaming just showing why some might see it as christian bashing."


But by the same, he also mentioned the "Red sea" story as well...so that would cover Judiasim/Islam (throuh Moses/Musa) as well.

I think, here in the west, that the miracles attributed to Muhammed are not well enough know to have the same impact that the story was meant to have. How many people would know about Muhammed's flight from Mecca to Medina in 622 A.D.? Or the story of the Mountain? The majority (not all) of westerners are rather ignorant of Islamic dogma.

Malocchio21
11-26-2007, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Hassan-Sabbah:


I think, here in the west, that the miracles attributed to Muhammed are not well enough know to have the same impact that the story was meant to have. How many people would know about Muhammed's flight from Mecca to Medina in 622 A.D.? Or the story of the Mountain? The majority (not all) of westerners are rather ignorant of Islamic dogma.

Ignorance...one of the reasons I forgot to mention...and one of the most important as to why there have been so many religious struggles.

Hassan-Sabbah
11-26-2007, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by sweetlou280:
Ok...all I know (don't flame just think) is that yes every religion has had it's lil hick ups...some more then others (history doesn't lie) but nothing is true so nothing matters

I think that was the point (as far as the game goes). That men and their wars are just a continual waste of life....for nothing.

And back to our previous debate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Just because one does not believe in God does not make one amoral (not saying that I personaly do not believe in God, I just do not believe in religions). How about this...we do not kill because it is wrong? Not because God "said so" but because it is by nature to kill for no reason, WRONG...not out of fear of some eternal damnation, not because we do not want to piss off some Guy in the Sky, but because we have respect for fellow living things? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

sweetlou280
11-26-2007, 08:12 PM
I know about some Muslim history, learned it in school. But the main thing that doesn't make me think to highly about how Muhammed spread the word of his god is how he prophicied with the sword...

Hassan-Sabbah
11-26-2007, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by sweetlou280:
I know about some Muslim history, learned it in school. But the main thing that doesn't make me think to highly about how Muhammed spread the word of his god is how he prophicied with the sword...

Now, again...did not the Christians do the same with the Inquisition? If you do not believe what we do, we will burn you as a heretic...

The spread of Islam was a direct reaction to the stresses the early Muslims were under. But, I do not want to turn into an Islamic Apologist...nor a Christian basher. History is seldom black and white.

AVandelay
11-26-2007, 08:23 PM
People are missing something here. The characters who bash religion, Vidic, Al Mualim, and to some extent, Sibrand & Ju'bair, are all evil. I don't want to relate this to school, but when someone complains about blacks having the right to vote in Huckleberry Finn, it's the Alcoholic father, not the respectable town judge. Content of speech is just as dependent on who says things as what is said.

Plus, according to the ending and holy grail mention, faith may not be out of the picture.

Hassan-Sabbah
11-26-2007, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by AVandelay:
People are missing something here. The characters who bash religion, Vidic, Al Mualim, and to some extent, Sibrand & Ju'bair, are all evil. I don't want to relate this to school, but when someone complains about blacks having the right to vote in Huckleberry Finn, it's the Alcoholic father, not the respectable town judge. Content of speech is just as dependent on who says things as what is said.

Plus, according to the ending and holy grail mention, faith may not be out of the picture.

I agree. But, I would not call those characters "Evil"...they have differing views than the accepted norms. Again to quote Jesus (odd from someone who is not a Christian, huh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif) "Do not condemn a man til you have walked a mile in his shoes." I think that was a major element of the story line.

I also think they are setting up a subplot where "Spirituality" will play a big part in the story. NOT any one religion...(remember the hints of "Altair has no religion, he is spiritual"?).

AVandelay
11-26-2007, 08:55 PM
The thing about the templars seems true, but the deeper in the game, the eviler they seem to become. People like the doctor and William seemed to have good intentions at stake, but men lie Mejd Judin were much more blunt. Al Mualim is of course the worst of these, saying "peace is to be chosen, not forced upon" to Altair, which is a complete lie considering what he does next.

Both spirituality and full fledged religion will likely increase in the next game. Look how far Altair has himself progressed. He started the game as Anakin Skywalker, and ended it a nice guy. His conversation with Richard where he denies belief in god seemed to set the stage for further development, considering Richards reply (something like "I think god believes in You"). Altair is never going to say the Shahadaa(sp?) or take communion, but I think he will acknowledge a higher power.

Hassan-Sabbah
11-26-2007, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by AVandelay:
The thing about the templars seems true, but the deeper in the game, the eviler they seem to become. People like the doctor and William seemed to have good intentions at stake, but men lie Mejd Judin were much more blunt. Al Mualim is of course the worst of these, saying "peace is to be chosen, not forced upon" to Altair, which is a complete lie considering what he does next.

Both spirituality and full fledged religion will likely increase in the next game. Look how far Altair has himself progressed. He started the game as Anakin Skywalker, and ended it a nice guy. His conversation with Richard where he denies belief in god seemed to set the stage for further development, considering Richards reply (something like "I think god believes in You"). Altair is never going to say the Shahadaa(sp?) or take communion, but I think he will acknowledge a higher power.

I am in complete agreement, sir.

dragdude1234
11-26-2007, 09:00 PM
In the beginning...templars were sacred and not so evil but as they spread across Europe,thats when bad things happened.They were like..hmmm..like what Nazis where to Jewish people in Europe i guess.Best way i can really word it.

Kieran_Y
11-26-2007, 09:04 PM
You owe your modern number system, astronomy, chemistry, medicine, certain aspects of art, muscic, literature, and more to Islamic culture
I am aware that many cultures were ahead of what we know as Europeans today for the most of the "Middle Ages" I am not aware about Arabic contribution to astronomy, art, muscic, or literature. I am aware of the number system and do know that although chemistry and medicine in the Arab world was more advanced than Europe during the Middle Ages, modern chemistry and medicine IS NOT directly derived from Arab influence. Modern chemistry and medicine developed COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT of Arab culture.

Kieran_Y
11-26-2007, 09:17 PM
failing to take into account sociological factors inherent in the middle east
i think that you are failing to take into account the ROOT behind those sociological factors. What gives the major rise to those issues? You guessed it.

Fastr77
11-26-2007, 09:31 PM
On the topic of the game having any religious meanings to it.. it's a damn game, get over it.

dragdude1234
11-26-2007, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by Fastr77:
On the topic of the game having any religious meanings to it.. it's a damn game, get over it. Wow.ANYTHING can be a bash to religion.Even a freaking word.It may be just a game but others(not me) DO give a dam if the game bashes religion.It can be a serious offense to Judaism,Christianity,and all the other religions.

Hassan-Sabbah
11-26-2007, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by Kieran_Y:
I am aware that many cultures were ahead of what we know as Europeans today for the most of the "Middle Ages" I am not aware about Arabic contribution to astronomy, art, muscic, or literature. I am aware of the number system and do know that although chemistry and medicine in the Arab world was more advanced than Europe during the Middle Ages, modern chemistry and medicine IS NOT directly derived from Arab influence. Modern chemistry and medicine developed COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT of Arab culture.

Perhaps I did not phrase my statement clear enough, and for that I apologize. I was not making the claim that Arabic/Islamic culture was the "Mother" of "medicine." Medicine (or at any rate, Healing systems) developed world wide, independently. The Orient (particularly the Chinese) and indigenous Americas had healing systems that were rather quite advanced. But, these cultures did not have the impact on the West as did Arabic thought through trade and Crusading. Europe was busy with matters other than learning (there is a reason it was called the "Dark Ages"), outside of few individuals, who still; were quite influenced by Arabic thought (Da Vinci, being but one example).

As far as Chemistry goes...the very word derived from Alchemy, which in turn derived from "Al Khemya" (The science of Egypt). It is also thought to derive from an archaic Arabic or Aramaic word "Qum" (pronounced K-Hoom) which means "To Change." A minority of scholars speculate that the Greeks were responsible, but again, they are a Minority. I think the etymology of the word is telling.



Originally posted by Kieran_Y:
i think that you are failing to take into account the ROOT behind those sociological factors. What gives the major rise to those issues? You guessed it.

No, I have not guessed it. Factually, it was the oppression the adherents to the new religion (Islam) were recieving from the adherents of the older religious systems (not unlike the treatment the Jews recieved from the Assyrians and Babylonians, or the Christians recieved from the Jews and the Romans). They were not concerned with "religion", they were concerned with the money, power, and prestige they would lose when no one was concerned with visiting the shrines of the other Gods in Mecca.

Are you implying that "Islam" or, more specifically, the teachings of Muhammed were the cause of war and blood shed? If this is your implication, that shows a lack of understanding of the Quran and smacks of Judeo-Christian propaganda. I would think our understanding of human nature has evolved a little beyond such misconceptions (ironic, as that is the very same complaint leveled against Islam's alleged "backwards-ness" by many modern Christian and Jewish leaders). The Quran spells out quite clearly the basis for "Jihad" and qualifications for "Martyrdom." It in no way implies one should strap bombs to their backs and blow themselves up on a bus load of children.

Have you ever read the Quran?

You take the exception as the norm. And this just reinforces my prior statement that the West is rather (and more than likely, Willfuly) ignorant to Islamic teachings.

By this theory, we can lay the thousands upon thousands of deaths that occurred during the so called Witch trials between the 1500s to 1700s at the doorstep of the religion of Christianity and directly at Jesus's feet. Should we state that the deaths of thousands of Jews across Europe, from the First through 3rd crusades, was caused by the teachings of the Nazarene, and Jesus is directly responsible for the Inquisition?

Absolutely not! And it would be ludicrous to suggest so.

No religion is at fault...it is its adherents who are the cause. Those who take the teachings of these religions and twist them to their own ends. Greed, conquest, fear, and power are to blame for war. Human nature at its worst, Not religions.

I will state it again so it is understood. I am coming at this from a neutral position. In my opinion, and from what I have learned from various studies, ALL religions have some merit. None is any better than the other as far as I am concerned. But to claim one is more violent than the other based on misconceptions an inaccuracies is just a bias, not fact.


Originally posted by Fastr77:
On the topic of the game having any religious meanings to it.. it's a damn game, get over it.

...and that works too!


Originally posted by dragdude1234:
Wow.ANYTHING can be a bash to religion.Even a freaking word.It may be just a game but others(not me) DO give a dam if the game bashes religion.It can be a serious offense to Judaism,Christianity,and all the other religions.

Anything can be an "offense" to anyone. These people need to realize that the Earth was not created for them alone and they share this world with others who may not hold their subjective view of reality as THE only one there is. No matter what book they choose to put their faith in, they should grow a little tolerance. I hold all religions in equal respect, but that does not mean I (or game developers, writers, musicians, or the man on the street) should have to tippy-toe around and play Mr. Politically correct for fear of insulting someone else's sensibilities. In my opinion, it is diversity that keeps things interesting on this ball of dirt...

Kieran_Y
11-26-2007, 11:22 PM
I am not to question your education, but such a statement as "I think the etymology of the word is telling" is irrelevant as to the history of a particular study. Medicine and Biology utilize Latin descriptors of many specimens and studies that were in no way possible to examine during that age. The etymology is in NO WAY telling of the history of the practicum or study. If one is even to consider ancient culture's affect in Modern Chemistry, texts ALWAYS point to the Greeks. But again Modern Chemistry owes very little to the far gone past.

"Are you claiming that "Islam" or, more specifically, the teachings of Muhammed were the cause of war and blood shed?" No I'm trying to get at the fact that the mere existence of the religion is the root of the sociological issues in the middle east. The fact that humans are stupid enough to interpret various religions the way they do.

"Those who take the teachings of these religions and twist them to their own ends. Greed, conquest, fear, and power are to blame for war." Is exactly the problem in the Middle East. Why is it even interpreted, utilized, and abused the way it is? Because of the mere fact that it is in existence. What if Islam never came to fruition and another took its place?

MiniAssasin
11-26-2007, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by dragdude1234:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fastr77:
On the topic of the game having any religious meanings to it.. it's a damn game, get over it. Wow.ANYTHING can be a bash to religion.Even a freaking word.It may be just a game but others(not me) DO give a dam if the game bashes religion.It can be a serious offense to Judaism,Christianity,and all the other religions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah like he said its just a damn game

who cares if anyone can take offence from it. maybe for that reason people should look at themselves and wonder why they so easily take offence to anything that bashes their religion

at the end of the day peopel have views. if you rreligious celebrate that fact be happy and stop going on your high horse at anything aimed or implied by others about your religion. it doesnt matter in teh slightest

the world is too full of people tying to keep everyone happy because they take the slightest thing and blow it out of all proportion and make a huge deal about it.

its just stupid

Hassan-Sabbah
11-27-2007, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Kieran_Y:
I am not to question your education,

Sure you are! You can question anything you like...and you SHOULD!


but such a statement as "I think the etymology of the word is telling" is irrelevant as to the history of a particular study. Medicine and Biology utilize Latin descriptors of many specimens and studies that were in no way possible to examine during that age. The etymology is in NO WAY telling of the history of the practicum or study. If one is even to consider ancient culture's affect in Modern Chemistry, texts ALWAYS point to the Greeks. But again Modern Chemistry owes very little to the far gone past.

You are arguing on yourself...if etymology is irrelevant, what matter that terms are couched in Latin? The Greeks were in contact with the mid east for ages upon ages.

But, we are in agreement that "modern" medicine and chemistry are a far cry from "ancient" theories of these disciplines. The point of my original statement was that the influence is often overlooked or intentionaly down played. "History" is usually quite murky and I only use it for the sake of debate...and as I do not have sources at hand at present, it is senseless of me to continue that debate as it will only be an illustration in splitting hairs. Maybe I will compile a list of sources at some point in time other than two AM. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


No I'm trying to get at the fact that the mere existence of the religion is the root of the sociological issues in the middle east. The fact that humans are stupid enough to interpret various religions the way they do.

"The" Religion? (as it is difficult to understand sometimes through the typed word) are you claiming it is "Islam" (THE religion) at fault, and the surrounding religions, whose more zealous adherents are just as intolerant as the Islamic ones are, are innocent?

If not, then forgive my misunderstanding of your quotes. This conversation began with you bringing charges of "bombs and death threats" in response to someone stating that the Christians were being "bashed" (again). (No offense to the original poster, but, Quote: "I did not see anything in this game's story but they same old, everyday, Bible bashing.")


"Those who take the teachings of these religions and twist them to their own ends. Greed, conquest, fear, and power are to blame for war." Is exactly the problem in the Middle East. Why is it even interpreted, utilized, and abused the way it is? Because of the mere fact that it is in existence. What if Islam never came to fruition and another took its place?

Those are the same problems everywhere in the world! Not just the Mid East...

But, Ok...on the otherside of the coin, one could say the world would be a better place if Judeo-Christian religions had died out.

My question is, what gives ANY religion preference to exist and not the other?

The Zionists can be blamed in the same way, using their religion to justify the displacement of hundreds of thousands and the confiscation of land because their myths claim it is theirs. The Christians can be blamed as well in this, as they allow and aid it to happen, want this to happen, as it is going to speed up their myth of the second coming of Christ because the Jews will possess the "Holy land" again. Why are those religions interpreted, utilized, and abused the way they are?

I am not picking sides here...I am curious as to what leads you to believe one is right and the other wrong?


Originally posted by MiniAssasin:

yeah like he said its just a damn game

who cares if anyone can take offence from it. maybe for that reason people should look at themselves and wonder why they so easily take offence to anything that bashes their religion

at the end of the day peopel have views. if you rreligious celebrate that fact be happy and stop going on your high horse at anything aimed or implied by others about your religion. it doesnt matter in teh slightest

the world is too full of people tying to keep everyone happy because they take the slightest thing and blow it out of all proportion and make a huge deal about it.

its just stupid

Huzzah!

Orpheusxx1
11-27-2007, 12:20 AM
Yes, throughout the storyline the bible is said to be a lie. But also there are strong christian symbols at the end of the game including the Eye of Providence and Revelations 22:13. This may suggest that maybe the Piece of Eden has been used not to support a lie about Christ, but to cover up the very truth of the matter.

The story can go many different ways in the sequals and I am very interested in seeing what happens.

Hassan-Sabbah
11-27-2007, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by Orpheusxx1:
Yes, throughout the storyline the bible is said to be a lie. But also there are strong christian symbols at the end of the game including the Eye of Providence and Revelations 22:13. This may suggest that maybe the Piece of Eden has been used not to support a lie about Christ, but to cover up the very truth of the matter.

The story can go many different ways in the sequals and I am very interested in seeing what happens.

True. There are also many symbols from the Inca/maya, Buddhist, Muslim, Helenistic, and hindu mythologies as well...

I thought the story quite interesting and rather inclusive. I did not see any particular pantheon being singled out at all.

Kieran_Y
11-27-2007, 12:39 AM
if etymology is irrelevant, what matter that terms are couched in Latin

"utilize Latin descriptors of many specimens and studies that were in no way possible to examine during that age." Since the items in question were not even perceivable when Latin was widely in use, you could not possibly relate the history of the study/specimen to cultures that used Latin. I am not arguing against myself.

What lead to modern chemistry came of its own around the 19th Century. Any previous knowledge was incredibly rudimentary, no thanks to religion.

Yes I am speaking of Islam. It is the predominant religion in the region and the fact that it is utilized by extremist groups, twisted to their political or personal agendas speaks of what can be interpreted within the Quran.

"The Quran spells out quite clearly the basis for "Jihad" and qualifications for "Martyrdom." Why is THAT EVEN IN the Quran? That itself is a reason as to why there is violence. As far as I know the bible doesn't call for Holy War in any way.

To put things simply, I can't name a single modern well known violent radical fundamentalist Christian group. Perhaps the Bible doesn't lead to many violent interpretations.

"the West is rather (and more than likely, Willfuly) ignorant to Islamic teachings. " Why does it matter when Islam CAN BE INTERPRETED, twisted, abused the way it is? Clearly if religion wasn't so close the hearts of the people in the Middle East, there wouldn't be a problem of "Holy War." At least in Africa they kill each other over land, diamonds, and race. In the middle east, conflict is clearly with the use of religion behind its back. You wouldn't need to fool people with religion if it didn't matter to them. You could say "we need to blow ourselves up because they steal our food, steal our land, steal our women!" But no, they know they wouldn't kill on that basis, so they use religion and it works.

Hassan-Sabbah
11-27-2007, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by Kieran_Y:
"utilize Latin descriptors of many specimens and studies that were in no way possible to examine during that age." Since the items in question were not even perceivable when Latin was widely in use, you could not possibly relate the history of the study/specimen to cultures that used Latin. I am not arguing against myself.

What lead to modern chemistry came of its own around the 19th Century. Any previous knowledge was incredibly rudimentary, no thanks to religion.

That is inaccurate and I made no statement of religion where THIS part of our debate goes. My statement was "Arabic and Islamic Culture." No mention of religion was made.

As to the inacuracies, there would be NO chemistry if it were not for Alchemy and there would be no Alchemy if it were not developed in Egypt (Arabic/Islamic "culture").

Again, I am not about to go rummging through books for sources on this and I am one of the few who does not count "Wikipedia" as a viable source. I will complile a list of references on the morrow.


Yes I am speaking of Islam. It is the predominant religion in the region and the fact that it is utilized by extremist groups, twisted to their political or personal agendas speaks of what can be interpreted within the Quran.

And the Judeo-Christian Bible has no such passages that can AND HAVE been used likewise? Here are a few, by no means complete...

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." Isaiah 13:15-16

"And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'" Numbers 25:3-4

"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..." Deuteronomy 13: 5

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." Deuteronomy 13:6-9

"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword." Deuteronomy 13:15

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***." I Samuel 15:2-3

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34

Of course, I know these are not meant as instigations of violence, but others do not and have not. By such a small out of context quote of "Thou shall not suffer a Wicth to live." thousands upon thousand were put to death. To claim Islam the only religion, or, more readily moved to violence by the book they hold as holy is just not factual.

And I ask again, have you ever actually read the Quran?


"The Quran spells out quite clearly the basis for "Jihad" and qualifications for "Martyrdom." Why is THAT EVEN IN the Quran? That itself is a reason as to why there is violence. As far as I know the bible doesn't call for Holy War in any way.

It is in there because the adherents to the religion at its inception were being prosecuted, hunted and slaughtered. See the above quotes and ask the same question of the Bible.


To put things simply, I can't name a single modern well known violent radical fundamentalist Christian group. Perhaps the Bible doesn't lead to many violent interpretations.

As much of a fan of Occam's razor that I am, outside of the lab; things are very seldom "simple."
For the sake of debate, ever hear of Jim Jones? David Koresh? Timothy McVeigh? Terry Nichols? Eric Rudolph? EVERY religion has a radical element. Christianity has the great fortune to be the more accepted of the batch, what need do they have to ressist? WHAT do they have to ressist? I will not even get into the creation of the "Islamic threat" that has been created in modern times by the media in reference to "well known." Outside of the great Boogey man Al-Quaeda and its little brother, Hamaas, how many "well known" violent radical fundamentalist Muslim groups can you name?


Why does it matter when Islam CAN BE INTERPRETED, twisted, abused the way it is?

Charles Mansion interpreted the Beatles white album as a call to cause a race war. ANYTHING can be interpreted to mean whatever a person wants it to. By this reasoning EVERYTHING (including the Bible) should be banned on fear of what a few may read into it.


Clearly if religion wasn't so close the hearts of the people in the Middle East, there wouldn't be a problem of "Holy War." At least in Africa they kill each other over land, diamonds, and race. In the middle east, conflict is clearly with the use of religion behind its back. You wouldn't need to fool people with religion if it didn't matter to them. You could say "we need to blow ourselves up because they steal our food, steal our land, steal our women!" But no, they know they wouldn't kill on that basis, so they use religion and it works.

Is that the reason the middle east is a mess? Because of religion (Islam in particular)? I am sorry, I thought what the Palestinian's considered Isreali occupation, stealing of their food, stealing of their land, stealing of their women, and the USA's monetary and Military support of this, was the cause. Along with Isreals use of religion to lay claim to all the above mentioned.
I do not, nor would I EVER condone the slaughter of innocent people, nor does the majority of true Muslims (at least the ones I have known) but, again, you apply Occam's razor where it is not applicable. You are simplifying things to a degree where it will fit into a one point view and excluding that which does not fit therein.

Faylinks
11-27-2007, 01:50 AM
i think the bible bashes itself, mostly because of the stuff around it that happens. i dont buy it.

Hassan-Sabbah
11-27-2007, 01:55 AM
Originally posted by Faylinks:
i think the bible bashes itself, mostly because of the stuff around it that happens. i dont buy it.

Unfortunately, the problem does not lie in the Book (or any of the other books. Well, outside of the Buddhists...they know how to mind their own bussiness http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif), it is the people who read the Books litteraly.

I know many, many Christians (I was raised Roman Catholic myself) who are wonderful, caring people. As in every religion, it is the few exceptions that are the problem.


@Kieran_Y,
Well, it is 4Am here and my girlfriend is getting me jealous with her snoring! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thank you for the interesting debate and mental Jousting. Hopefully we can continue this tomorrow. Be well.

stix489
11-27-2007, 02:08 AM
OK...My two cents..

Now I don't mean to insult anyone here, but if you do not believe in God...then what do you believe in, what drives you to do good, what makes you fear the evil around you?

I am a Catholic Christian, a practicing one at that. I try my best to go to Church on Sundays, try my best to control my human nature, which is to sin, and try my best to follow Jesus.

Again, to all non-believers, and I'm not talking about Jews or Muslims, I'm talking about those of you who do not believe in a higher power, those who do not believe in God, whether it's the God of Moses or the Father of Jesus.

What do you think will happen to you when your time comes...when your life is at an end? If you do not believe in God, then surely you do not believe in heaven, hell or purgatory...

Us Christians believe that, if we are righteous in our lives, and by righteous I mean to pray, help others, follow the Ten Commandments, and be just in your deeds and actions, you will reach heaven, a place of rest and happiness, a place where you are in awe at the presence of God.

This itself drives me, it pushes me to do good, to be good in my life. I do good, knowing that one day, I will reach my ultimate goal. Again, this is what helps me reach perfection.

So, again my question is, what drives you people that do not believe...what makes you do good? If you do not believe in God then you do not believe in his ultimate judgment, therefore you do not fear the consequences of your actions...

Hassan-Sabbah
11-27-2007, 02:29 AM
@stix489

UGH! I was trying to go to sleep!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

I am not sure if this applies to me, as I DO believe in a higher power (A "God" for lack of a better descriptive), I just do not believe, as humans, in our present state, we can comprehend that to its fullest degree. This includes so called religions.

But, why is it that you believe all "Human nature" is to sin? And how exactly does one define what a "sin" is?

Just for the record, I majored in Comparative Religion and Mythology in College, I was raised Catholic (my family still is). I have studied religion and spirtualism for many years, from primitive shamanism, to qabbalism, to Christian Mystisicm (Rosycrucianism) to Ceremonial Magick and New Age spirituality and Sufism. I am not asking that question to "flame" or mock you...but, as a Rhetorical question. just so you know...

Why do we need to believe that Man is inherently "evil"? Why cannot human nature be something more than that (I am thinking William Blake here)? If you boil it all down and strip away the extraneus...if you do not kill for greed, or possession or hate, if you do not take what is not yours, and if you treat people with respect and dignity and help those who you can, is that not all that really matters?

Is that not its own reward?

And why would you need the promise of an Eternal Paradise to do so, or the threat of unending punishment if you do not?

When I operate in what the buddhists call "Right action"...it feels good, to ME, in the present, and when I do not, if I am mean, or spiteful or hateful towards someone, it does not. I can feel those things without the axe of Hell hanging over my head...I do not try to be helpful towards others because I want to go to heaven, I do it because it is the right thing to do.

Do not get me wrong, I do not consider religions as worthless, some o their teachings are quite beautiful and helpful. But I see them as guides, "maps" if you will. But, as Alford Korzybski once stated "A map is not the territory."

And "when my time comes?" I do not know....none of us do. I have my theories, my suspicions, but I can not claim in certainty what that will be. NONE of us can...

NOW, I am going to bed! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif
Be well all!

Kieran_Y
11-27-2007, 02:32 AM
"That is inaccurate and I made no statement of religion where THIS part of our debate goes. My statement was "Arabic and Islamic Culture." No mention of religion was made." Clearly there is a HUGE misunderstanding as to whats being argued here and I will leave it at that.

"As to the inacuracies, there would be NO chemistry if it were not for Alchemy and there would be no Alchemy if it were not developed in Egypt (Arabic/Islamic "culture")." That is extremely debatable. Religion severely hampered scientific process for most of history. Again what is modern chemistry today came of its own beginning in the 1800s. Prior knowledge was far too rudimentary/incorrect to be of use as building blocks. Why is it that you think I am Christian. I am pointing out what I observe from my Western view and what western media presents me. With that in mind again why is it that no Christian group has taken those for literal truth and used them as a point for conquest and violence? To be honest I am only familiar with Timothy McVeigh and he as far as I know did not belong to any outspoken radical Christian group. Whereas only individuals take violence in the name of Christ, groups with members in the thousands would kill for Islam.

"Why does it matter when Islam CAN BE INTERPRETED, twisted, abused the way it is?" how can you possibly extrapolate "By this reasoning EVERYTHING (including the Bible) should be banned on fear of what a few may read into it" from that? But did Charles Manson have a following in the thousands that greatly disrupted the North American continent? Yes it was extremely ignorant of me to include the Israeli-Palestine conflict as a war with Islamic ideals in its roots. In fact as you stated, it was Jeudaism's belief in claim to their holy land that IS the cause of this conflict. However in regards to the amiable situations in Iraq and Afghanistan (both garnering ALL foreign media attention at the moment) these conflicts have a very religious backing intertwined. Maybe if they solely killed by stating that Western Power is simply invading their land (which they occasionally in fact do say) they would have reasonable argument, but, unfortunately they just have to bring God into the equation. I currently believe that the Iraq-Afghanistan IS the MAJOR engulfing conflict in the Middle East at the moment.

I am not arguing that true Muslims are the root of the conflict. I am arguing that the existence of Islam, the strong hold of the power of Islam over the people, in Afghanistan-Iraq is the root of the problem. Violent Islamic Fundamentalists are using Islam as a tool of destruction to gain their means. The fact that they can wield Islam(no matter how noble the teachings are) as a weapon is enough for concern. How can the religion have such a stay over the people, so much so as manipulative men may deceive them into extremely violent behavior?

gaz2785
11-27-2007, 02:42 AM
It's just a story. Nobody is saying that the piece of Eden really exists and can brainwash people, therefore I see no reason why it matters or should offend.

Also Christianity is the most dominant religion in the world, and I would guess that 90% of the people who buy this game are either Christian or of Christian decent (i.e. their parents or grandparents were Christian) - therefore it makes sense to base the story on something they're familiair with.

If they had tried to disprove Budhism instead I probably wouldn't have a clue what they were talking about.

Hassan-Sabbah
11-27-2007, 02:47 AM
I am not arguing that true Muslims are the root of the conflict. I am arguing that the existence of Islam, the strong hold of the power of Islam over the people, in Afghanistan-Iraq is the root of the problem. Violent Islamic Fundamentalists are using Islam as a tool of destruction to gain their means. The fact that they can wield Islam(no matter how noble the teachings are) as a weapon is enough for concern. How can the religion have such a stay over the people, so much so as manipulative men may deceive them into extremely violent behavior?

By those that teach, control, govern, and rule keep the masses in the pens, they keep them stupid (as all religions do to a degree). The majority of fundametalists are operating with the attitude of a person stuck in the 1100s, and those that rule them see that it stays that way (look at the Saudi's Wahhabism for example, or the Talaban). Keeping the people under control through fear and social ostrisisation is the key to their power. I agree with you on this, and it is very distressing to see a people who were at one time the shining example of civilization in that predicament.
I do not argue that the religion is used as described above, but I do take exception to the claim it is the religions fault.

Some people are sheep and they need to be led, they need desicions made for them, and told what to do. It is easier that way than it would be to take resposibility for yourself, to think for yourself, and unfortunately, many have fallen into that pit. But to blame Islam is like blaming the knife if I were to theoretically stab you (and I am not saying I would http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif). And to claim Islam is the only religion that can be or was used in this way, is just not correct.

I hope you can see what I am getting at...
I am not choosing any side over the other...it is all a matter of perspective and who is to say which is the correct one (if any of them are)?

Anyraod, again...I need sleep. Forgive any type-o's or speling errors, I am typing with one eye closed. Really, thank you for the interesting debate. I love this type of debate and especially when it is done in a civilized and respectfull manner (which is rare these days).

Be well.

Kieran_Y
11-27-2007, 03:05 AM
I am personally a Roman Catholic loosing faith in God. This does not mean I will live a life of "evil doing" but simply will not let some "higher power" govern the way I live.

"what drives you to do good, what makes you fear the evil around you?" I now simply believe that society functions better when you can trust those around you and expect help and give help when needed. Chaos would ensue if mistrust and individual gain were to rule. "Evil" is again for me simply disruptive to society and hampers social function.

"What do you think will happen to you when your time comes...when your life is at an end? If you do not believe in God, then surely you do not believe in heaven, hell or purgatory..." I am now believing that when I die, I die. I can't and won't be able regret anything because I'll be dead. I can only live life to what I believe is the fullest.

Now on the topic of the afterlife, personally "hell" and Purgatory are far more interesting. Heaven is woop-dee-doo life is a million bucks for ever and ever. In purgatory and hell however what may happen there is interesting. First purgatory indefinite limbo mode. Right now be know we are born and we will die, therefore we have a definite conception of time. But in purgatory time does not exist. If you can't perceive time, would it truly be mild "torture?" What are you even supposed to do there anyways? For me, assuming one retains what we know as aspects of humanity in purgatory, I would eventually go insane for lack of closure and nothing to do. That I'm willing to live with for eternity because being insane i wouldn't be capable of thinking properly anyways.

Hell is the most interesting, somehow I highly doubt youd be strapped down and whipped for eternity. It must be some form of psychological torture. Physical torture has impact on us right now because it may lead to death or a highly compromised way of living. But what happens when you can't die? Does physical pain really have bearing? Again time is something of interest. If time does not exist, does torture have some ultimate bearing? I have convinced myself that psychological torture to the nth degree would not matter when time does not exist. So fear of hell is not an issue for me.

Obviously most of the above is a lot of crazy talk and it is impossible for me to express my exact thought in words. Once you talk about afterlives, stuff becomes pretty much incomprehensible.

To those who are/remain religious, how can you possibly agree with the answer to all critical issues "God works in mysterious ways?" Thats the most BS answer I've ever heard. My main issue is with what was supposed to be a gift of "free choice." Can you really truly control yourself to do what is "good" and what is "evil?" Why is it that some people are more prone to do "good" than others? It is simply because everyone else "chooses" evil? No. Genetics has taught me that people are indeed pre-dispositioned to do certain things more than others. SHould someone be condemned to hell because their psychological development, both genetic and environmental, made them that way? They certainly didn't choose that before they were born. It was forced upon them. By whom? Of course the one who works in mysterious ways. I see it as Him choosing everyone's destiny before they are even born. Free choice? yeah right.

Child soldiers, religious "terrorists", mentally challenged "criminals" all go to hell because they took the time to carefully choose their way of life.

stix489
11-27-2007, 03:19 AM
Fine...I'll let you reply to this tomorrow! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


But, why is it that you believe all "Human nature" is to sin? And how exactly does one define what a "sin" is?

Humans are nothing but flesh and bones...correct? Well, if you are only flesh and bone and have no spiritual foundation within yourself whatsoever, then you are surely to act or behave as you are...with no external forces guiding or misguiding you.

In other words...There are two "sides" to you...one being good and one being bad. Our spirit is what guides us to do good, while our human nature, our body, can make us do bad deeds.

Humans have fallen from our once "state of innocence". This of course is related to the story of Adam and Eve...which I'm sure you're familiar with. As soon as the first man and woman sinned, our human nature fell. This is the Original Sin. This is why we get baptized, to rid us of this sin...the first ever sin committed by man.

"all humans are born not only with a predisposition to sinful behavior, but with an inherently sinful nature"

A sin, my friend, is the purposeful act of committing an evil deed, either physically or non-physically...simply put... a sin is an offense against God.


Why do we need to believe that Man is inherently "evil"? Why cannot human nature be something more than that (I am thinking William Blake here)? If you boil it all down and strip away the extraneus...if you do not kill for greed, or possession or hate, if you do not take what is not yours, and if you treat people with respect and dignity and help those who you can, is that not all that really matters?

Is that not its own reward?

I personally believe it because the Church teaches it. Not only that, but because by looking around me, I see all kinds of sin, committed by many, due to the lack of knowledge, and the lack of belief.

One must know God to be able to love Him.

Now this statement may not fit the context of your question, but it brings me to my next point, which is why knowledge plays an important part in out human nature.

Tell me, if you know that what you are doing is wrong, would you still do it?

The same goes for what is good. If you know that a specific act, let's say charity for example, is good, but it takes away something from you, which in this case is money. Would you still do it?

If you can distinguish between what is right and what is wrong, yet still do fault, doesn't this make you more of a fool than a person who cannot distinguish between the two?

What I'm trying to say here, is that knowledge is not everything. If knowing something makes you feel wholesome...why not practice it, and see how much more you can achieve.

Sure, doing what is right, and the feelings involved with doing so does matter, but it doesn't complete the purpose in my eyes.

The feeling of doing what is good cannot last when you feel it on your own. But when you share it with someone, God for example, it will last forever, because God does not forget your deeds. Also, knowing that there is more of a reward than just mere happiness, makes that happiness last much longer.


And why would you need the promise of an Eternal Paradise to do so, or the threat of unending punishment if you do not?

We do not need the promise of Eternal Paradise, but it does help you live your life in a just way.

Tell me, if someone tells you to do something for them, mow the lawn for example, for no reward, meanwhile another asks of you the same thing, except they offer you a reward at the end, which of these two will you do the deed for?


I do not try to be helpful towards others because I want to go to heaven, I do it because it is the right thing to do.

But the question is, why is it the right thing to do? What makes you feel that way? Is it because you feel happiness when you help others?
There are people out there that commit sin and spread evil, and they do it because it makes them happy. Does that make it right? Of course not.


And "when my time comes?" I do not know....none of us do. I have my theories, my suspicions, but I can not claim in certainty what that will be. NONE of us can...

Of course no one knows when their time will come, but think ahead for me. Where do you see yourself after death...Do you see yourself with God, do you see yourself in a pitch black room, with nothing to do for all eternity?

All people, no matter their differences, work for a certain goal, their Ultimate Goal. My Ultimate Goal is to reach heaven, and be with God forever. What is your Ultimate Goal?

Pr0metheus 1962
11-27-2007, 03:25 AM
I'm a Christian too and I can assure everyone that this game is not anti-religion.

Firstly, the only ones saying that religion is a fraud are THE BAD GUYS. They are all Templars and Atheists. Dr Vidic tries to disprove the Bible but he's a Templar and thus an Atheist and a bad guy.

If anyone is being treated poorly by the game it is Atheists and Templars.

The game portrays Atheists as power-hungry maniacs bent on world domination through turning everyone into mindless drones. How anyone can assume that the developers are supporting a viewpoint that they clearly intend to be seen as evil is simply ludicrous. Now I can see Atheists coming out against this game - it virtually paints them as the Devil incarnate.

I can also see Templars (if there were any alive today) being upset too. In reality the Knights Templar were devoutly religious, and by no means Atheists.

But the one set of people who definitely are not maligned in this game are religious folks. All the player has to do is to understand the plot, and it's not difficult to grasp: Vidic and the Templars are bad - they are not meant to be seen as having a message that's supposed to be likeable. If anyone thinks that the Templar philosophy is shared by Ubisoft he needs his head examining.

Kieran_Y
11-27-2007, 04:09 AM
"but I do take exception to the claim it is the religions fault." Much of the way Muslims live their lives is right from the Quran. Clearly it is written in such a way that it empowers leaders to rule without question. If it were written any other way, individuals would have no fear of certain consequences, but ultimately they fear God.

"And to claim Islam is the only religion that can be or was used in this way, is just not correct." It is though is it not? For if there was such another, then we would still be hearing of such a religion right now.

stix489
11-28-2007, 02:20 PM
So anyone wanna reply to my post...because I really want to know what you guys think! Hassan? Anyone?

xELITEGUNNERx
11-28-2007, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by BenC88:
I have kept up with this game for 3 years and could not wait to play it. I bought it and loved every second of it. But from all of the interviews that i have seen or read, Jade or Patrice said this game does not take a religious side. But from the game you would think otherwise. You later find out that the 9 targets are just people who knew of the Peace of Eden therefore your Master wants them dead. This was not for the Crusades sake but for his, and this was not for religious reasons. But through the story you find out that this "Peace of Eden" could control mens thoughts and make them see and believe in things that are not there. Dr. Vidic tries to disprove the Bible, then in one of the computers it says that the "Peace of Eden" has disproved the Bible, not the Koran (was not mentioned). Your Master says the Red Sea was not split (Bible reference), Jesus did not turn water to wine (Bible reference), there was no flood (Bible reference), the Earth was not made in seven days (Bible reference). Clearly all of those are from the Bible and none from the book of Muslim belief, the Koran. They seem to have some sort a message that they are trying to convey. And this would not be better if they did try to disprove both but the Bible and the believers of it have been a target in media for a long time. If someone says something bad about Islam then it is wrong but when it comes to Christianity it is sociably acceptable.

I am a Christian and I know you may think my view of this is skewed on this matter but i am trying to look at this from a neutral stand point. I did not see anything in this game's story but they same old, everyday, Bible bashing.

Other than that I really liked they game.

Please no flaming, just rational discussion.

yeah A WOMAN HAS BEEN ARRESTED FOR CALLING A BEAR MOREHAMHEAD

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
So anyone wanna reply to my post...because I really want to know what you guys think! Hassan? Anyone?

All Right... Here it goes.

I was Born and raised Roman Catholic and went to a private catholic school through 8th grade. And it is hard for me to believe in (a) god(s).

But you want to know what drives "People like me" to do good.

There does not have to be a god for me to know right from wrong nor moral from immoral. I have read the bible and when I look at it I cant help but see rules and guidelines for idiots. I AM NOT SAYING BELIEVERS ARE IDIOTS. what I am saying is that to me the bible is but a rule book for life. and when I look at it is seems like it was made so that those who cannot distinguish between right and wrong can say O.o if I sin I go to hell (the message given then is: Don't sin)sining being something immoral or wrong.

In my eyes I live as a good person and do good things because I WANT TO not because god wants me to. I look at people who are morons/"sinners" (and yes I know Everyone "sins" to a certain degree) who end up in jail and I say "I don't want to be like that." I honor My parents because they deserve it not because god says I should.


I do the right thing because I have a respect for my self not for god.

Stix: I respect your beliefs and have nothing against them. I respect your ability to stand up for what you believe in just as I have stood uop for what I don't believe in.

Peace

Royal.Mist
11-28-2007, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by BenC88:
I have kept up with this game for 3 years and could not wait to play it. I bought it and loved every second of it. But from all of the interviews that i have seen or read, Jade or Patrice said this game does not take a religious side. But from the game you would think otherwise. You later find out that the 9 targets are just people who knew of the Peace of Eden therefore your Master wants them dead. This was not for the Crusades sake but for his, and this was not for religious reasons. But through the story you find out that this "Peace of Eden" could control mens thoughts and make them see and believe in things that are not there. Dr. Vidic tries to disprove the Bible, then in one of the computers it says that the "Peace of Eden" has disproved the Bible, not the Koran (was not mentioned). Your Master says the Red Sea was not split (Bible reference), Jesus did not turn water to wine (Bible reference), there was no flood (Bible reference), the Earth was not made in seven days (Bible reference). Clearly all of those are from the Bible and none from the book of Muslim belief, the Koran. They seem to have some sort a message that they are trying to convey. And this would not be better if they did try to disprove both but the Bible and the believers of it have been a target in media for a long time. If someone says something bad about Islam then it is wrong but when it comes to Christianity it is sociably acceptable.

I am a Christian and I know you may think my view of this is skewed on this matter but i am trying to look at this from a neutral stand point. I did not see anything in this game's story but they same old, everyday, Bible bashing.

Other than that I really liked they game.

Please no flaming, just rational discussion.

As far as I know, Muslim's believe the same thing as Christians. Only they believe Muhammed was kwler than Jesus. So... you fail?

EDIT: I'm happy to be proved wrong though.

stix489
11-28-2007, 03:07 PM
I was Born and raised Roman Catholic and went to a private catholic school through 8th grade. And it is hard for me to believe in (a) god(s).

May I ask why you find it hard to believe in God? Is it because the rules you must follow in doing so are too hard? Or is it something else?

I know many people that have lost faith in God because of certain incidents in life. Loss of a family member, loss of a friend etc.. Could that be why you lost your faith?


There does not have to be a god for me to know right from wrong nor moral from immoral.

This statement is true, but what makes you want to do the good you do? Is it the shear happiness alone? For me, it is happiness, as well as the reward...Of course i don't do good just to be rewarded at the end, I do it to please God...and please myself as well.


I have read the bible and when I look at it I cant help but see rules and guidelines

True, the Bible is full of rules and guidelines, but they are there to help you through life. They are not just there for the sake of being there, they are there to aid you. For me, when I am feeling down, for whatever reason, I go straight to the Bible. Maybe that's just me though, but I find the Bible very helpful in certain situations.


and when I look at it is seems like it was made so that those who cannot distinguish between right and wrong can say O.o if I sin I go to hell (the message given then is: Don't sin)sining being something immoral or wrong.

With or without the Bible, you know the difference between what is good and what is not. The Bible is just there to guide you, to help you out in life.

For me, life is the ultimate test. If you pass, you reap the rewards in heaven, but if you fail, you lose everything in hell. And one thing that helps me "study" for this exam is the Bible.


In my eyes I live as a good person and do good things because I WANT TO not because god wants me to.

I also do good because i want to...but I do it because that is what pleases God as well.

But if people "want to" do bad deeds...does that make it any more acceptable?


Stix: I respect your beliefs and have nothing against them. I respect your ability to stand up for what you believe in just as I have stood uop for what I don't believe in.

Likewise. I respect your beliefs also. And thank you for your reply! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
May I ask why you find it hard to believe in God? Is it because the rules you must follow in doing so are too hard? Or is it something else?

For me the only place god exists is in the bible. And it feels like god was placed in the bible by the writers to put fear in people's hearts so that they will listen to what it has to say.

And as for the rules, I DO follow them because I think its the right thing to do. (Except those pertaining to the sabbath day and things like that. I think you know what I mean)






This statement is true, but what makes you want to do the good you do? Is it the shear happiness alone? For me, it is happiness, as well as the reward...Of course i don't do good just to be rewarded at the end, I do it to please God...and please myself as well.

Doing the right thing can make me happy at times but in most cases I do it because like I said before I have a certain respect for myself. I have heard this saying many times "You can't love anyone until you truly love yourself." This is somewhat of a guideline for myself. I don't do the wrong thing because of my conscious. So when I do end up doing something bad it pains me and I can't live with myself until I ask forgiveness of the person(s) involved in the situation. (not forgiveness from a god)


True, the Bible is full of rules and guidelines, but they are there to help you through life. They are not just there for the sake of being there, they are there to aid you. For me, when I am feeling down, for whatever reason, I go straight to the Bible. Maybe that's just me though, but I find the Bible very helpful in certain situations.


With or without the Bible, you know the difference between what is good and what is not. The Bible is just there to guide you, to help you out in life.

I just plain Don't see it that way. I've spent 9 years of my life (k-8)around the bible and it has never once brought me any sort of happiness when I'm down. I don't see how a book that tells you what to do and not to do can make me feel good after I know I've disobeyed its rules...



For me, life is the ultimate test. If you pass, you reap the rewards in heaven, but if you fail, you lose everything in hell. And one thing that helps me "study" for this exam is the Bible.

And THAT is probably the thing you and I agree on the least. I do agree that the bible can help those do the right thing in life (If they can't figure it out themselves) But to think of my entire life as some sort of test.. it grosses me out.



But if people "want to" do bad deeds...does that make it any more acceptable?
I don't Understand this one. But I'll try.

If people want to do bad deeds that acceptable to a point. I could care less if some dude sits at home all day and WANTS to hurt someone but if that individual decides to actually cross the line and take action then that is way we have the court system.



Likewise. I respect your beliefs also. And thank you for your reply!

No problem.

p.s. I don't know how to quote inside a quote but this is my attempt. if it doest work then someone help me out and tell me to clean up my post.

[/QUOTE]

Pr0metheus 1962
11-28-2007, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
May I ask why you find it hard to believe in God? Is it because the rules you must follow in doing so are too hard? Or is it something else?

I find that question profoundly disrespectful - and I'm a Christian myself. I dread to think what an Atheist might think of it. I mean it assumes, a priori, that the person you are addressing is morally weak. I don't think that's a respectful basis from which to discuss the issue.

Let's turn it around. What if I asked you the same question:

May I ask why you find it hard to believe in Jainism? Is it because the rules you must follow in doing so are too hard? Or is it something else?

Royal.Mist
11-28-2007, 03:37 PM
This thread is freezing, needs moar flames.

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 03:44 PM
You live off flames I think.

Royal.Mist
11-28-2007, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by NECESARY_EVIL:
You live off flames I think.

They nourish my body, fill the void left by my soul.

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 03:48 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

MalachiDrake
11-28-2007, 03:50 PM
I have no love of religion. This game does not insult or attack the religion's at all as religion is just a story telling tool in the game, in an alternative universe. You have more right to be upset that they made the ficticious elelent of DNA containing memories than the use of religion in the game as DNA is in all of us.

I have never read the holy scripters of the Muslims, the Jews or the Christians and I don't ever plan on doing so.

If leaders stopped using Religion as a tool and stopped editing the books for their own use then I would hold more stock in it.

Just enjoy the game.

England for the win!

stix489
11-28-2007, 03:55 PM
For me the only place god exists is in the bible. And it feels like god was placed in the bible by the writers to put fear in people's hearts so that they will listen to what it has to say.

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask you another question. How were you created? Was it by evolution...or did someone create you the way you are?

I personally believe, as other Christians, that God created the whole world, me and you included. And I'm just curious as to how you think you came into existence.


Doing the right thing can make me happy at times but in most cases I do it because like I said before I have a certain respect for myself. I have heard this saying many times "You can't love anyone until you truly love yourself." This is somewhat of a guideline for myself. I don't do the wrong thing because of my conscious. So when I do end up doing something bad it pains me and I can't live with myself until I ask forgiveness of the person(s) involved in the situation. (not forgiveness from a god)

But let's say for example, you murdered someone. How can you ask forgiveness then? Surely you cannot talk to the dead, nor bring them back to life!


I just plain Don't see it that way. I've spent 9 years of my life (k-8)around the bible and it has never once brought me any sort of happiness when I'm down. I don't see how a book that tells you what to do and not to do can make me feel good after I know I've disobeyed its rules...

But you see...the Bible isn't ALL rules and guidelines. It's messages of hope, and to me, truth. There are more fascinating stories in the Bible which anyone can relate to, than there is rules and guidelines.

Assuming that you do have a Bible lying around somewhere, go and open it up. The chance of you finding a great story is much greater than finding a rule/guideline.

I'm not saying that if you sinned you should just open up the Bible and feel troubled by disobeying the teachings within. I'm saying that if you are feeling down, there are many words and statements of wisdom which you can relate to.


And THAT is probably the thing you and I agree on the least. I do agree that the bible can help those do the right thing in life (If they can't figure it out themselves) But to think of my entire life as some sort of test.. it grosses me out.

So tell me, where do you see yourself after death? Where do you think you will end up? Re-incarnated? In a pitch black room? In your coffin? I'm really interested to see what you people think of the Afterlife.


If people want to do bad deeds that acceptable to a point. I could care less if some dude sits at home all day and WANTS to hurt someone but if that individual decides to actually cross the line and take action then that is way we have the court system.

I meant that just because you "think" it's the right thing...does it make it so? What makes it the "right" thing? Because it feels good when it's done?


p.s. I don't know how to quote inside a quote but this is my attempt. if it doest work then someone help me out and tell me to clean up my post.


You have to copy the sentence...then you have to put the quote signs in ("..." this is the button up top when you are writing a message...it's next to the bullet point button and the strike through button)...then finally paste in the sentence that you copied...

Anyway thanks again for your reply...and I'm looking forward to hearing from you!

@ Beeryus: I'm not trying to be disrespectful at all! I'm simply asking it so I can know why people do not believe...I am not, in any way, stating that they are morally weak...I am sorry if I offended you, or others, by asking it.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-28-2007, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by MalachiDrake:
I have never read the holy scripters of the Muslims, the Jews or the Christians and I don't ever plan on doing so.

As a devout Christian I read quite a lot about Christianity and the more I read the more I realise that a loving God, if such a being exists, doesn't give a damn what we believe. If a loving God exists, which is improbable but by no means impossible, He will take care of us in His way whether we are Christians, Jews, Moslems or Atheists, or any other creed or non-creed imaginable. God doesn't care about us praising Him. Why would a loving and intelligent being desire praise on pain of eternal suffering? It just doesn't make sense.

MalachiDrake
11-28-2007, 04:04 PM
But let's say for example, you murdered someone. How can you ask forgiveness then? Surely you cannot talk to the dead, nor bring them back to life!

No offence, just a question but: What gives god the right to forgive someone for a sin that was not committed against him? We have all got feelings, free will and the ability to choose and if god in his wisdom saw fit to give us these abilities then why would he deny us the right to use them.

If you kill someone, unless in defence or duty, then you should not be forgiven as that just makes life to easy. We need to learn from our mistakes

Royal.Mist
11-28-2007, 04:04 PM
I'm really sorry, this thread was coming along so nicely with mature, respectable discussion about religion but I feel I really have to say: Religion is a security blanket for the masses who have the need for an explanation about everything.

Does it really matter how the Universe was created? Does it really matter what happens after you die? Does it really matter if life has no meaning but what we make of it? No!

Religion in life is just like finding deep meaning in a Video Game.

MalachiDrake
11-28-2007, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Beeryus:
As a devout Christian I read quite a lot about Christianity and the more I read the more I realise that a loving God, if such a being exists, doesn't give a damn what we believe. If a loving God exists, which is improbable but by no means impossible, He will take care of us in His way whether we are Christians, Jews, Moslems or Atheists, or any other creed or non-creed imaginable. God doesn't care about us praising Him. Why would a loving and intelligent being desire praise on pain of eternal suffering? It just doesn't make sense.

These are wise words. I find it hard to beleive that we are all here today due to a tiny percentile chance of a big bang and I do beleive that a higher power, God, had his/her/its hand in creating our Universe.

I beleive in God but I do not beleive in Religion. As you say, God would not judge us on how many times we read a book that was written by man but instead how we chose to live our life.

I don't think a murderer who is a devout catholic and gets his sins absolved is going to engrace themselves with god more than a 'good' aethisit who lives a honest, lawful and kind life and helps those around them

stix489
11-28-2007, 04:12 PM
God doesn't care about us praising Him.

That's not true...of course He does! That is why he wanted sacrifices and the such...it's in the Old Testament!


What gives god the right to forgive someone for a sin that was not committed against him? We have all got feelings, free will and the ability to choose and if god in his wisdom saw fit to give us these abilities then why would he deny us the right to use them.

Sinning against anyone, means sinning against God. Since, in my eyes, God is the creator of this world, and does not tolerate those that go against it. Think of him as a mod on these forums.



If you kill someone, unless in defence or duty, then you should not be forgiven as that just makes life to easy. We need to learn from our mistakes

How can you learn from your mistakes by living a life full of sadness and regret? You cannot! To me, God is all-powerful and merciful...He loves his children and doesn't want them to be harmed.


Religion is a security blanket for the masses who have the need for an explanation about everything.

So is science...in my eyes. Not everything is cold hard fact my friend. But if that is what you believe, then I respect that.

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
If you don't mind, I'd like to ask you another question. How were you created? Was it by evolution...or did someone create you the way you are?
I Believe It was indeed evolution.


But let's say for example, you murdered someone. How can you ask forgiveness then? Surely you cannot talk to the dead, nor bring them back to life!
Thats a good one!... I do not plan on murdering anyone.
But I will admit that if someone were to kill a family member of mine on purpose then I would kill them myself. And after that I would either be executed or go to jail for the rest of my life just as I deserve. People who are murders are either in the situation mention by me a couple lines ago or have a distorted view of what is right (which is where the bible could help I guess).


But you see...the Bible isn't ALL rules and guidelines. It's messages of hope, and to me, truth. There are more fascinating stories in the Bible which anyone can relate to, than there is rules and guidelines.

Assuming that you do have a Bible lying around somewhere, go and open it up. The chance of you finding a great story is much greater than finding a rule/guideline.

As I stated I have read the bible and am familiar with its stories and anecdotes but they usually have a moral. And for those that don't have one then to me it's just a story.


So tell me, where do you see yourself after death? Where do you think you will end up? Re-incarnated? In a pitch black room? In your coffin? I'm really interested to see what you people think of the Afterlife.

When I'm dead then I'm dead. I can't tell you what will happen when I die nor can anyone else. But I'm pretty sure I will stop thinking and therefor have no way of knowing that I'm dead so I won't be so worried about it.


I meant that just because you "think" it's the right thing...does it make it so? What makes it the "right" thing? Because it feels good when it's done?

You and I know right from wrong. I can't explain it in detail. But I would be grateful If someone offered their take on it without using religion.



@ Beeryus: I'm not trying to be disrespectful at all! I'm simply asking it so I can know why people do not believe...I am not, in any way, stating that they are morally weak...I am sorry if I offended you, or others, by asking it.

For the record that sentence could have been taken badly but rest assured I was not offended and saw your motive.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
I'm really sorry, this thread was coming along so nicely with mature, respectable discussion about religion but I feel I really have to say: Religion is a security blanket for the masses who have the need for an explanation about everything.

Does it really matter how the Universe was created? Does it really matter what happens after you die? Does it really matter if life has no meaning but what we make of it? No!

Religion in life is just like finding deep meaning in a Video Game.

supply us with an explanation of the whole security blanket thing...

Royal.Mist
11-28-2007, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by NECESARY_EVIL:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
I'm really sorry, this thread was coming along so nicely with mature, respectable discussion about religion but I feel I really have to say: Religion is a security blanket for the masses who have the need for an explanation about everything.

Does it really matter how the Universe was created? Does it really matter what happens after you die? Does it really matter if life has no meaning but what we make of it? No!

Religion in life is just like finding deep meaning in a Video Game.

supply us with an explanation of the whole security blanket thing... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

.....

People have the need to be justified with everything they do, they have the need to think someone is with them in times of trouble and they have a need for a tool that will make masses keep in check.

These people are better known as needy, dependent pussies who couldn't move more than 5 miles from home lest a giant cockroach needs killing.

This is my crappy explanation, I'm sure someone who is anti-Religion could do it a lot better and not make it seem like a dickhead point of view but... I'm tired and stuff.

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by stix489:


So is science...in my eyes. Not everything is cold hard fact my friend. But if that is what you believe, then I respect that.

I will agree with you on this a little bit. science is also a construct. (something you have to have faith in) By this I mean things like psychology. there are many aspects of the study of the mind In which we cannot see or study but have written "fact" on them

EX: The unconscious. I want proof that a rock doesn't know where its going as it rolls down a hill

Pr0metheus 1962
11-28-2007, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
If you don't mind, I'd like to ask you another question. How were you created? Was it by evolution...or did someone create you the way you are?

I came to be through God's evolutionary mechanism. As a devout Christian God calls on me to use my brain as well as my faith. God also tells us that the Bible is a secondary source of spirituality. The primary source is within us all - a direct connection with the divine. The Bible tells us this when it talks about the New Covenant written on our hearts. The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life.


I personally believe, as other Christians, that God created the whole world, me and you included.

And why cannot we believe in God's creation and also evolution? Only a person whose primary belief is in an inerrant Bible believes that the two are incompatible. The Bible is not God and those who think it equates to God (in terms of it being incapable of error) are idolators. The Bible itself tells us to treat the Bible with skepticism and to listen to the inner voice - the light in our consciences that is the divine within us.


...let's say for example, you murdered someone. How can you ask forgiveness then? Surely you cannot talk to the dead, nor bring them back to life!

Why would anyone ever have to ask forgiveness? We all know if we've done wrong. There is little point in asking forgiveness. People (and God) will forgive us if they think we deserve it. If we don't deserve forgiveness asking for it is a form of coercion. If God is omniscient then he knows us well enough to know our motives and our exact level of remorse. Asking for forgiveness is completely pointless if God is omniscient.


I'm not saying that if you sinned you should just open up the Bible and feel troubled by disobeying the teachings within. I'm saying that if you are feeling down, there are many words and statements of wisdom which you can relate to.

This is true of any religious text and of many self help books too. It's hardly evidence of divine inspiration.


So tell me, where do you see yourself after death? Where do you think you will end up? Re-incarnated? In a pitch black room? In your coffin? I'm really interested to see what you people think of the Afterlife.

The overwhelming probability is that there is no afterlife. There is a small chance of some kind of reincarnation, but it has more to do with individual consciousness being a mentally induced illusion than it has to do with the machinations of an interested God figure.


I meant that just because you "think" it's the right thing...does it make it so? What makes it the "right" thing? Because it feels good when it's done?

There is no objective right and wrong beyond the individual's subjective view of it, so the question can't really be answered. Interestingly this is the basis of the Assassin's Creed phrase "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" - meaning that all perceptionj of 'truth' and all perception of 'morality' are subjective and reside within the individual. Self-restraint is the only truly effective way to impose any level of moral behaviour on society. Such restraint doesn't come from any Bible or from God. If it did, God would be a tyrant, imposing His will on humanity. I don't believe in a tyrant God. Do you?

Royal.Mist
11-28-2007, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by NECESARY_EVIL:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stix489:


So is science...in my eyes. Not everything is cold hard fact my friend. But if that is what you believe, then I respect that.

I will agree with you on this a little bit. science is also a construct. (something you have to have faith in) By this I mean things like psychology. there are many aspects of the study of the mind In which we cannot see or study but have written "fact" on them

EX: The unconscious. I want proof that a rock doesn't know where its going as it rolls down a hill </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't have a brain, therefore it cannot think there it doesn't know anything let alone where it's rolling. Gravity wins.

stix489
11-28-2007, 04:27 PM
What so you're calling religious people "dependent pussies"...now that is "profoundly disrespectful"

Tela
11-28-2007, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NECESARY_EVIL:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stix489:


So is science...in my eyes. Not everything is cold hard fact my friend. But if that is what you believe, then I respect that.

I will agree with you on this a little bit. science is also a construct. (something you have to have faith in) By this I mean things like psychology. there are many aspects of the study of the mind In which we cannot see or study but have written "fact" on them

EX: The unconscious. I want proof that a rock doesn't know where its going as it rolls down a hill </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't have a brain, therefore it cannot think there it doesn't know anything let alone where it's rolling. Gravity wins. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Plants don't really have brains either, yet THEY know what to do.

MalachiDrake
11-28-2007, 04:30 PM
Its good to remember that the holy books were not written by God and have been edited by men through translation, changes in the language and other means so who is to say that they are what "God" would have intended.

If god forgives a murderer then why is their a 'Hell'? Surely killing one of his children is the worst crime possible in his eyes and yet he will forgive you no problem?

God is not like a Mod becouse most Mod's (this forum excluded of course!) are like power hungry kids lol. If god did not want us to feel negative emotions then why did he give them to us?

A concious is more important than Faith and it is this combined with socialisation that teaches us right from wrong in our life.

Individuals learn from primary and secondary socialisation the value, norms and roles that are expected of them in society. We learn when to say please and thank you, when to listen and when to talk and how to react to authority. We learn this from family, friends and institutions like education and religion (amongst other things).

Holy books may aid in this process but they are not its only source. I am sure there is not a section of the bible that says "Do not hack a bank" but from our life experiance's we know that its wrong.

Also what is right and wrong changes with time as our cultures advance and new legislation comes into play yet the Holy book does not change with it. It used to be illegal for women to vote but not anymore.

So while the holy books may have good moral fables in them people can learn what is right and wrong without reading them - hope this helps answer that point.

DeAdLy2323
11-28-2007, 04:30 PM
i am catholic and i have no problem with this game doing what it does. while it does try to say things in the bible don't exist, their proof of disproving it is a fictional item. and if you read all the emails and get all the backstory, it says the piece of eden disproves all of this but there may in fact be fact in the bible (forgot exactly how or where but i know this is said) again i am catholic and you don't see me going all crazy, then again thats all sterotypical stuff like saying all Muslims are terrorists.

now this is one sided, the mozilla spellchecker says muslim is spelled wrong if not capatilized but it doesnt matter for catholic.

and if it comes up, i have nothing against the da vinci code **** and enjoyed both the book and movie


now stop fighting!

Royal.Mist
11-28-2007, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Tela:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NECESARY_EVIL:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stix489:


So is science...in my eyes. Not everything is cold hard fact my friend. But if that is what you believe, then I respect that.

I will agree with you on this a little bit. science is also a construct. (something you have to have faith in) By this I mean things like psychology. there are many aspects of the study of the mind In which we cannot see or study but have written "fact" on them

EX: The unconscious. I want proof that a rock doesn't know where its going as it rolls down a hill </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't have a brain, therefore it cannot think there it doesn't know anything let alone where it's rolling. Gravity wins. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Plants don't really have brains either, yet THEY know what to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please explain to me or describe to me a plant consciously making a decision.

@Stix

It's profoundly disrespectful to have bible pushers knocking at my door on the weekends. What's your point?

DeAdLy2323
11-28-2007, 04:33 PM
wow i should read this whole thread, people thinking that rocks have brains, even though they aren't alive? this is funny http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Royal.Mist:


People have the need to be justified with everything they do, they have the need to think someone is with them in times of trouble and they have a need for a tool that will make masses keep in check.

These people are better known as needy, dependent pussies who couldn't move more than 5 miles from home lest a giant cockroach needs killing.

This is my crappy explanation, I'm sure someone who is anti-Religion could do it a lot better and not make it seem like a dickhead point of view but... I'm tired and stuff.

I' sure you can do better that calling believers pussies. I don't believe in god but It is comments like this that make atheists look like ******. I apologize on this kids behalf to all those people who believe in a higher power.

MalachiDrake
11-28-2007, 04:35 PM
I hate those people on the door and those people judging me in the street with their signs telling me I am a sinner and that I need to repent.

There is a lot of wisdom so far in this and its good to see a sensitive subject being discussed with respect.

The plant has instincts; it reacts to stimulus e.g. its a living thing and moves toward the light to survive. Much like humans act on insticnt when faced with life or death situations.

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 04:38 PM
Now were sorta seeing my point. The rock thing was to show that science (psychology in this example) is also something that cannot proved.

stix489
11-28-2007, 04:39 PM
@Stix

It's profoundly disrespectful to have bible pushers knocking at my door on the weekends. What's your point?

Are they swearing at you? Are they insulting you? In my eyes, they are trying to help you!

DeAdLy2323
11-28-2007, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by NECESARY_EVIL:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Royal.Mist:


People have the need to be justified with everything they do, they have the need to think someone is with them in times of trouble and they have a need for a tool that will make masses keep in check.

These people are better known as needy, dependent pussies who couldn't move more than 5 miles from home lest a giant cockroach needs killing.

This is my crappy explanation, I'm sure someone who is anti-Religion could do it a lot better and not make it seem like a dickhead point of view but... I'm tired and stuff.

I' sure you can do better that calling believers pussies. I don't believe in god but It is comments like this that make atheists look like ******. I apologize on this kids behalf to all those people who believe in a higher power. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>if i could find out where that quote is from or i would quote it directly but i cant so ill just quote evil


so your telling me its better to not believe or have faith in anything and what wishful and positive thinking is it that when you die you rot in the ground? being and atheist is also a religon, expect the person you believe in there isn't one. not having faith or believing in something is what drives some people insane. at least i think that when i die i go to a happy place rather then thinking worms will be crawling through my ears

Royal.Mist
11-28-2007, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">@Stix

It's profoundly disrespectful to have bible pushers knocking at my door on the weekends. What's your point?

Are they swearing at you? Are they insulting you? In my eyes, they are trying to help you! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I don't want their "help". Maybe I think they need help, maybe a visit to a psychologist to discuss the imaginary man who created us.

God does not know everything nor can he doing everything.

dirtybird21
11-28-2007, 04:42 PM
I believe in god but i'm not really part of any religion...

And i normally have no opinion of atheists at all... Most of my favorite artists are atheists actually lol (Aesop rock, Sage Francis etc.)

But most of the atheists here are either being extremely closed minded (which is what atheists say about religious people lol) Or trying way 2 hard 2 look like the victim... It's 2007 now come on, If you live in a part of the world where you can have both a computer and any one of the systems that currently lets you play AC.. Then nobody is going 2 lynch you for not believing in god, And theres VERY people that actually go up 2 people on the street and tell them they need 2 repent... Seriously, Most people wouldn't even KNOW you're atheist...

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 04:42 PM
DOUBLE EDIT to deadly2323 ... ok

I'm not telling you what to think nor am I making fun of it so please stop insinuated that I am and also stop mocking what I believe.

EDIT: to Royal.mist So say "no thank you" and close the door. They are not swearing or insulting you like stix said so why call them Dependant pussies?

DeAdLy2323
11-28-2007, 04:44 PM
you know america and most of the world was built on religon.


and its a fact that, compared to a long time ago (1191 for example) most of the world, if not all, believed in some sort of god, and now it's almost the complete opposite.


Originally posted by NECESARY_EVIL:
I'm not telling you what to think nor am I making fun of it so please stop insinuated that I am and also stop mocking what I believe. just so you know evil, in my post quoting you i wasn't really talking to you, but the guy you quoted.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-28-2007, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by MalachiDrake:
Surely killing one of his children is the worst crime possible in his eyes and yet he will forgive you no problem?

Of course He will. A loving and omniscient God knows everything, including that a murderer will murder. Since God already knows that when he creates the murderer, how could he not forgive it? After all, the murderer is doing exactly what he's expected to do.

dirtybird21
11-28-2007, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stix489:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">@Stix

It's profoundly disrespectful to have bible pushers knocking at my door on the weekends. What's your point?

Are they swearing at you? Are they insulting you? In my eyes, they are trying to help you! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I don't want their "help". Maybe I think they need help, maybe a visit to a psychologist to discuss the imaginary man who created us.

God does not know everything nor can he doing everything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's completely ignorant seeing as you're basically saying the exact same thing exept i haven't seen any "bible pushers." Suggest going 2 a psychologist...

Royal.Mist
11-28-2007, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by dirtybird21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stix489:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">@Stix

It's profoundly disrespectful to have bible pushers knocking at my door on the weekends. What's your point?

Are they swearing at you? Are they insulting you? In my eyes, they are trying to help you! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I don't want their "help". Maybe I think they need help, maybe a visit to a psychologist to discuss the imaginary man who created us.

God does not know everything nor can he doing everything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's completely ignorant seeing as you're basically saying the exact same thing exept i haven't seen any "bible pushers." Suggest going 2 a psychologist... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well then it's fair to say the guy with schizophrenia who is hearing voices can rightfully call those voices 'God' and be totally correct. I could say theres some imaginary guy standing next to me who is 'God' and I'd be correct. I could even say I'm 'God' and be correct.

You have no proof it exists, you have never seen your 'God' yet you'd willing dedicate your life to it. Just because it is widely accepted doesn't justify it.

stix489
11-28-2007, 04:50 PM
Maybe I don't want their "help".

Fine...but don't expect to be welcomed on a public place like this by insulting people that believe in a religion.


Maybe I think they need help, maybe a visit to a psychologist to discuss the imaginary man who created us.

If you think he is imaginary, then so be it, that's your belief. But I don't...so stop trying to sound that your beliefs are true and mine are false.


God does not know everything nor can he doing everything.

And how do you know that...you just said He was imaginary, now you're changing your whole statement around by acknowledging His existence, but degrading his power...Stick to one of them.

antonfc1248
11-28-2007, 04:55 PM
i couldnt agree more stix http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

some people get on their high horse and rant about someone else's beliefs being wrong.......how the f*ck can they be.

they are someones belief therefore, in principal, correct

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dirtybird21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stix489:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">@Stix

It's profoundly disrespectful to have bible pushers knocking at my door on the weekends. What's your point?

Are they swearing at you? Are they insulting you? In my eyes, they are trying to help you! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I don't want their "help". Maybe I think they need help, maybe a visit to a psychologist to discuss the imaginary man who created us.

God does not know everything nor can he doing everything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's completely ignorant seeing as you're basically saying the exact same thing exept i haven't seen any "bible pushers." Suggest going 2 a psychologist... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well then it's fair to say the guy with schizophrenia who is hearing voices can rightfully call those voices 'God' and be totally correct. I could say theres some imaginary guy standing next to me who is 'God' and I'd be correct. I could even say I'm 'God' and be correct.

You have no proof it exists, you have never seen your 'God' yet you'd willing dedicate your life to it. Just because it is widely accepted doesn't justify it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You are completely miss-guided. Instead of trying to mess with whatever other believe try to figure out what you believe first and then once youve done that try not calling other people names because they don't believe what you believe.

Like stix and me had a refreshing conversation. that actually made sense.

Royal.Mist
11-28-2007, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by NECESARY_EVIL:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dirtybird21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Royal.Mist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stix489:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">@Stix

It's profoundly disrespectful to have bible pushers knocking at my door on the weekends. What's your point?

Are they swearing at you? Are they insulting you? In my eyes, they are trying to help you! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I don't want their "help". Maybe I think they need help, maybe a visit to a psychologist to discuss the imaginary man who created us.

God does not know everything nor can he doing everything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's completely ignorant seeing as you're basically saying the exact same thing exept i haven't seen any "bible pushers." Suggest going 2 a psychologist... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well then it's fair to say the guy with schizophrenia who is hearing voices can rightfully call those voices 'God' and be totally correct. I could say theres some imaginary guy standing next to me who is 'God' and I'd be correct. I could even say I'm 'God' and be correct.

You have no proof it exists, you have never seen your 'God' yet you'd willing dedicate your life to it. Just because it is widely accepted doesn't justify it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You are completely miss-guided. Instead of trying to mess with whatever other believe try to figure out what you believe first and then once youve done that try not calling other people names because they don't believe what you believe.

Like stix and me had a refreshing conversation. that actually made sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't even told you what I believe, how can you make that statement?

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 05:04 PM
Religion is a security blanket


These people are better known as needy, dependent pussies...

Yes you have my friend your just to ignorant to realize it. You have stated what you believe about other religions.

stix489
11-28-2007, 05:05 PM
Oh no...You haven't left us a clue... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I don't know...maybe you're an atheist...and a *****!

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 05:06 PM
I miss our conversations

EDIT: it started with me defending my beliefs but now its just contradicting royal.piss because He is making people like me look bad and I don't like it.

stix489
11-28-2007, 05:08 PM
I miss our conversations

Haha yeah...Good times!

Royal.Mist
11-28-2007, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
Oh no...You haven't left us a clue... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I don't know...maybe you're an atheist...and a *****!

Nope, you fail. Not surprisingly.

@Necesary_Evil

How do I download wits like yours?

BRB, don't care about thread, it's been disrupted http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Royal.Mist:

How do I download wits like yours?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

here (http://www.youfail.org)

Tela
11-28-2007, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by NECESARY_EVIL:
I miss our conversations

EDIT: it started with me defending my beliefs but now its just contradicting royal.piss because He is making people like me look bad and I don't like it.

He's not making "people like you" look bad. He's making himself look like an *ss, like usual.

stix489
11-28-2007, 05:14 PM
Yeah I failed at identifying your beliefs...but the ***** statement still stands...

EDIT: So EVIL...Do you wanna go for another round?

dirtybird21
11-28-2007, 05:26 PM
Wtf is wrong with royal.mist?

Where you beaten with a bible when you were a child?

Seriously, What you said basically ment, "It's not ok for them 2 think i'm wrong, But it's fine for me 2 think they're insane."

You don't have any proof god DOESN'T exist, And god creating the earth is no less "crazy" sounding than a huge explosion that just happened 2 create thousands of stars and planets and create life that evolved from mush 2 walking talking people...

I'm not saying it's "wrong" im just saying it doesn't seem anymore reliable...

stix489
11-28-2007, 05:32 PM
I agree with you...Royal.Mist can't think straight...I mean one minute he doesn't believe in God...the next minute, he does, but claims He doesn't know everything...I mean come on, seriously, make up your mind!

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 05:42 PM
Stix: I'm Up for it if you are...

stix489
11-28-2007, 05:45 PM
Yeah I'm up for it...what shall the subject be?

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 05:48 PM
... I'm Drawing a blank... SOMEONE GIVE US ATOPIC

stix489
11-28-2007, 05:51 PM
Hmm...Can't think of any either...religion? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

MalachiDrake
11-28-2007, 05:53 PM
War is a good subject.

To quote two lines from an awesome film, the rock:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

and

"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious,"

Can a war be justified? Discuss

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 05:53 PM
I'm not inclined to ask questions on religion but I will sure answer any you or other people have.

and for everyone except stix: I'm an atheist remember

EDIT: OOOOOOO I REMEMBER A QUESTION I HAD!


Stix: is it ok in your eyes to kill someone in service to a country?

stix489
11-28-2007, 05:58 PM
Ok how about we mix war (MalachiDrake) and religion (NECESARY_EVIL) together...

Do you think it is right to kill others in defense of your country?

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 06:01 PM
lol great minds think alike...

I believe it is definitely ok. No matter what the war. But in defense of your country is something different then what happened in vietnam. When hundreds of civilians were killed because of American soldiers.. on purpose

stix489
11-28-2007, 06:06 PM
I believe that...even though my RE teacher used to tell me otherwise...killing someone in any war is wrong. Ok...here is the part where religion kicks in...If two armies are fighting a great war, and both of them are fighting for a great cause...which side is God on...who is sinning for killing...and who is not.

Now i know you are an atheist and may find this question difficult to answer due to that, but try your best...

MalachiDrake
11-28-2007, 06:07 PM
I am pessamistic and I think that in our current global enviroment there is a trend for 'greed' in our socities and I think that we are all vulnerable to temptation if the circumstances are right. I also beleive in the proverb of "Power corrupts, ultimate power corrupts ultimatly".

So, I think in recent history it is fair to say that some 'leaders' have used other factors to mask their greed as reasons for war. A hypothetical situation e.g. declaring war to gain more economic wealth but saying its to fight terrorism.

However, I think that War will always be part of our history and there are certain things in this world worht fighting for. Freedom being the ultimate one.

We should defend our countries, our cultures and our beliefs but there are more ways than war to this and we should not oppress other peoples cultures and beleifs to do this.

For example: You can defend a war of propoganda without having to invade a country. So to relate this to religion. Yes, people have a right to defend their views this can be done through peaceful means and not through Holy Wars, acts of genocide or terrorism.

Tis my opinion.



Posted Wed November 28 2007 17:06 Hide Post
I believe that...even though my RE teacher used to tell me otherwise...killing someone in any war is wrong. Ok...here is the part where religion kicks in...If two armies are fighting a great war, and both of them are fighting for a great cause...which side is God on...who is sinning for killing...and who is not.

Now i know you are an atheist and may find this question difficult to answer due to that, but try your best...

A war over something that can not be physicaly conquered is a futile effort and no matter how many people you kill you will only strengthen their resolve to stand by their beliefs.

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 06:08 PM
dad wants phone I have dial up

brb

dirtybird21
11-28-2007, 06:09 PM
I'm not a member of any specific religion but... I really don't think god would "Side" with anyone in a war, Killing is killing and i really don't think it matters who's side you're on...

stix489
11-28-2007, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by dirtybird21:
I'm not a member of any specific religion but... I really don't think god would "Side" with anyone in a war, Killing is killing and i really don't think it matters who's side you're on...

If this is what you think, then so be it. But I believe that God sides with the ones who fight for a just cause, and with the army that believes in Him, that acknowledges Him and his power. Through faith, even the greatest war can be won.

But if both of these "armies" believe and acknowledge God...then which of them shall have His aid?

Tela
11-28-2007, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dirtybird21:
I'm not a member of any specific religion but... I really don't think god would "Side" with anyone in a war, Killing is killing and i really don't think it matters who's side you're on...

If this is what you think, then so be it. But I believe that God sides with the ones who fight for a just cause, and with the army that believes in Him, that acknowledges Him and his power. Through faith, even the greatest war can be won.

But if both of these "armies" believe and acknowledge God...then which of them shall have His aid? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think: Whoever continues the fight for the right reasons. If you're just continueing the fighting for an unjust cause(there was a war(possibly several), and I can't remember which one, that continued due to stubborness).

antonfc1248
11-28-2007, 06:20 PM
IF God does side with two armies going at each other then it is the better tactician who will win out

MalachiDrake
11-28-2007, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dirtybird21:
I'm not a member of any specific religion but... I really don't think god would "Side" with anyone in a war, Killing is killing and i really don't think it matters who's side you're on...

If this is what you think, then so be it. But I believe that God sides with the ones who fight for a just cause, and with the army that believes in Him, that acknowledges Him and his power. Through faith, even the greatest war can be won.

But if both of these "armies" believe and acknowledge God...then which of them shall have His aid? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

None of them will. God, I presume, would be far happier for none of his creations to Sin and to live in harmony and to settle all disuptues peacefuly with logic and conversation. We are the only species on this planet who have shown the ability to do what we do: Create, Invent, Discover, Debate and devlop languages. We are also the only species that kills our own species and not even in self-defense or for survival but becouse of petty reasons.

Does that seem right to you? A Tiger kills to live and we are more barbaric than a Tiger? IT would seem we are off track on what God intended for us.

I really find it hard to think that God would want us to wage war on each other in his name. Perhaps youcan enlighten me?

Tela
11-28-2007, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by MalachiDrake:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stix489:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dirtybird21:
I'm not a member of any specific religion but... I really don't think god would "Side" with anyone in a war, Killing is killing and i really don't think it matters who's side you're on...

If this is what you think, then so be it. But I believe that God sides with the ones who fight for a just cause, and with the army that believes in Him, that acknowledges Him and his power. Through faith, even the greatest war can be won.

But if both of these "armies" believe and acknowledge God...then which of them shall have His aid? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

None of them will. God, I presume, would be far happier for none of his creations to Sin and to live in harmony and to settle all disuptues peacefuly with logic and conversation. We are the only species on this planet who have shown the ability to do what we do: Create, Invent, Discover, Debate and devlop languages. We are also the only species that kills our own species and not even in self-defense or for survival but becouse of petty reasons.

Does that seem right to you? A Tiger kills to live and we are more barbaric than a Tiger? IT would seem we are off track on what God intended for us.

I really find it hard to think that God would want us to wage war on each other in his name. Perhaps youcan enlighten me? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
Good point, and well said.

dirtybird21
11-28-2007, 06:25 PM
It seems contradictory 2 his nature 2 side with anyone in a war... Especially if they both have a "just cause" I don't think god would even have anything 2 do with a war, Whoever has the better army would win... If anything god would side against WAR...

stix489
11-28-2007, 06:30 PM
In the course of history there has been many "Holy Wars"...These varied from just causes to unjust causes. I believe that if you wage a war because it is the right thing to do...not because you "think' it is the right thing to do, then God will most likely be on your side.

Of course, it is true that God is always with you, but are you always with God?

What I mean by that is...You cannot expect God's help when you are not on His side.

God doesn't want us to wage wars in His name, or in anyone's name. But if it is the only choice there is...then so be it. Although, like I said, the reason behind the war must be just. This is what I personally believe.

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 06:31 PM
I agree dirtybird. Since I don't believe in him I'm out of topic a bit right now. But yes I believe that killing in the sake of DEFENDING your country is fine. But when the purpose of the war becomes distorted the n it is the generals job to take it up with whoever the leader is to stop the war or get it back on track. But as for soldiers in a distorted war it comes down to if they are killing in defense or killing because their victims are in their way.

MalachiDrake
11-28-2007, 06:31 PM
When is a war Just? Who decides what Just us? and how do you know when it is Just?

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 06:36 PM
war is just when your country is being seriously threatened and you have no other option but to defend yourself with force. This was the mask of the Vietnam war and the Iraq war but both have turned out to be a bout false intelligence and now were "helping" the other countries.

Tela
11-28-2007, 06:36 PM
To quote a wise man(yes, he's a fictional character. Kudos to any who know who he is):

"There's always another way."

If people learned to LISTEN more, there would be no points where war is absolutely necessary.

stix489
11-28-2007, 06:36 PM
Well let's say...The Germans captured Africa to expand their power (This is unjust) so then the Africans waged a war against the Germans in order to regain what was once theirs (This is just)

I'm merely using these as examples, but you should get what I'm trying to say.

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 06:39 PM
Bingo

antonfc1248
11-28-2007, 06:44 PM
still the killing of a person is unjust, no matter what they may have done to u or ur country.

and to go to war against an army is only killing innocent soldiers who didnt start the fight nor did they commit any sins

stix489
11-28-2007, 06:44 PM
Hehe we should open a debating thread...it seems a lot of people here like it!

antonfc1248
11-28-2007, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
Hehe we should open a debating thread...it seems a lot of people here like it!

If u ask the big questions youll always get an answer

Tela
11-28-2007, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by antonfc1248:
still the killing of a person is unjust, no matter what they may have done to u or ur country.

and to go to war against an army is only killing innocent soldiers who didnt start the fight nor did they commit any sins

It's worse when a person is FORCED to be a soldier. (thankfully, not in America, but in other countries....)

antonfc1248
11-28-2007, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Tela:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by antonfc1248:
still the killing of a person is unjust, no matter what they may have done to u or ur country.

and to go to war against an army is only killing innocent soldiers who didnt start the fight nor did they commit any sins


It's worse when a person is FORCED to be a soldier. (thankfully, not in America, but in other countries....) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

how true

MalachiDrake
11-28-2007, 06:49 PM
But perhaps the Germans did not see it that way. Perhaps they felt that the Africans had threatened their way of life, posed a danger to world peace or had attacked an ally of Germany. In this case the Geramns would think they are Justified and then the Africans would be unjust to retaliate. Now you can make it even more confusing: What came first, the chicken or the egg?



Germnay has a technological break through and builds a Battleship, Africa thinks "hmm I want some of that" and makes their own Ship. Germany takes this as a threat so makes 5 more for protection but then Africa thinks the Germans are preparing for war and make 10 ships and make a sneal attack. The war ends but Five years later Africa makes 10 more ships for defense but Germany thinks Africa will attack again so they attack first. Who is right and who is wrong?

Two important things to remember are that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter and that History is written by the Victor.

Just and Unjust are subjective words that are open to interpretation. I can guarantee that people like Hitler did no think they were evil. The most horrible person in the world does not wake up and go 'I am evil!' they think what they are doing is for the best of the world, they think they are justified.

And to go back to the murder thing where it was said God would forgive a murderer becouse he made them that way then surely God would forgive someone like Hitler in which case it could be argued that Hitlers countless acts of genocide and war crimes were justified becouse he was doing what God made him do.

Now thats a scary thought.

No war is Justified, only a tragic loss of life in each sides idea of protecting the greater 'good'. So i cime back to the point that God would not be with an army he would only be saddened by the death of his creations.

"Hospitaller: I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here
[points to head]
Hospitaller: and here
[points to heart]
Hospitaller: and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not. "

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 06:50 PM
I'ma tryin it

EDIT: the debate thread

DeAdLy2323
11-28-2007, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by NECESARY_EVIL:
lol great minds think alike...

I believe it is definitely ok. No matter what the war. But in defense of your country is something different then what happened in vietnam. When hundreds of civilians were killed because of American soldiers.. on purpose war is hell, innocent people get killed for no reason. but people realize that and are trying to stop it, hence us losing, well, not losing, but falling behind, in iraq. people are claiming to be innocent and the when our backs are turned, stab us. and if they are so innocent, why are they next to insurgent HQ?


EDIT: i have an idea, why dont we all make a private topic discussing stuff like this, so it doesnt get locked or anything like that

Tela
11-28-2007, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by MalachiDrake:
But perhaps the Germans did not see it that way. Perhaps they felt that the Africans had threatened their way of life, posed a danger to world peace or had attacked an ally of Germany. In this case the Geramns would think they are Justified and then the Africans would be unjust to retaliate. Now you can make it even more confusing: What came first, the chicken or the egg?



Germnay has a technological break through and builds a Battleship, Africa thinks "hmm I want some of that" and makes their own Ship. Germany takes this as a threat so makes 5 more for protection but then Africa thinks the Germans are preparing for war and make 10 ships and make a sneal attack. The war ends but Five years later Africa makes 10 more ships for defense but Germany thinks Africa will attack again so they attack first. Who is right and who is wrong?

Two important things to remember are that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter and that History is written by the Victor.

Just and Unjust are subjective words that are open to interpretation. I can guarantee that people like Hitler did no think they were evil. The most horrible person in the world does not wake up and go 'I am evil!' they think what they are doing is for the best of the world, they think they are justified.

And to go back to the murder thing where it was said God would forgive a murderer becouse he made them that way then surely God would forgive someone like Hitler in which case it could be argued that Hitlers countless acts of genocide and war crimes were justified becouse he was doing what God made him do.

Now thats a scary thought.

No war is Justified, only a tragic loss of life in each sides idea of protecting the greater 'good'. So i cime back to the point that God would not be with an army he would only be saddened by the death of his creations.

"Hospitaller: I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here
[points to head]
Hospitaller: and here
[points to heart]
Hospitaller: and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not. "

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

I have to wonder...just how many wars have been started due to confusion and/or fear?

DeAdLy2323
11-28-2007, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by MalachiDrake:
But perhaps the Germans did not see it that way. Perhaps they felt that the Africans had threatened their way of life, posed a danger to world peace or had attacked an ally of Germany. In this case the Geramns would think they are Justified and then the Africans would be unjust to retaliate. Now you can make it even more confusing: What came first, the chicken or the egg?



Germnay has a technological break through and builds a Battleship, Africa thinks "hmm I want some of that" and makes their own Ship. Germany takes this as a threat so makes 5 more for protection but then Africa thinks the Germans are preparing for war and make 10 ships and make a sneal attack. The war ends but Five years later Africa makes 10 more ships for defense but Germany thinks Africa will attack again so they attack first. Who is right and who is wrong?

Two important things to remember are that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter and that History is written by the Victor.

Just and Unjust are subjective words that are open to interpretation. I can guarantee that people like Hitler did no think they were evil. The most horrible person in the world does not wake up and go 'I am evil!' they think what they are doing is for the best of the world, they think they are justified.

And to go back to the murder thing where it was said God would forgive a murderer becouse he made them that way then surely God would forgive someone like Hitler in which case it could be argued that Hitlers countless acts of genocide and war crimes were justified becouse he was doing what God made him do.

Now thats a scary thought.

No war is Justified, only a tragic loss of life in each sides idea of protecting the greater 'good'. So i cime back to the point that God would not be with an army he would only be saddened by the death of his creations.

"Hospitaller: I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here
[points to head]
Hospitaller: and here
[points to heart]
Hospitaller: and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not. " about the god forgives hitler thing.... god will forgive you as long as you ask for it. i doubt hitler asked to be forgiven because as you put it, he did not think he was wrong.

and about the africa fight germany thing. this is going on right now. america is being very cautious because north korea has begun building and testing nuclear bombs, and i believe america assumes they are preparing for war. (for the record i am american)

and also, very good post, very meaningful. correct a few typos and this could mean something

MalachiDrake
11-28-2007, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Tela:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

I have to wonder...just how many wars have been started due to confusion and/or fear?

Too many I would say http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Especialy if you look back into our deepest histories when our cultures would be meeting people who looked different to them for the first ever, and spoke differently.

It's far to recent that people of 'differing' skin colours were seen as something less than human.

How much pride man kind has of its creations and yet our heritage is full of stupidty, confusion and hate.

antonfc1248
11-28-2007, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Tela:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MalachiDrake:
But perhaps the Germans did not see it that way. Perhaps they felt that the Africans had threatened their way of life, posed a danger to world peace or had attacked an ally of Germany. In this case the Geramns would think they are Justified and then the Africans would be unjust to retaliate. Now you can make it even more confusing: What came first, the chicken or the egg?



Germnay has a technological break through and builds a Battleship, Africa thinks "hmm I want some of that" and makes their own Ship. Germany takes this as a threat so makes 5 more for protection but then Africa thinks the Germans are preparing for war and make 10 ships and make a sneal attack. The war ends but Five years later Africa makes 10 more ships for defense but Germany thinks Africa will attack again so they attack first. Who is right and who is wrong?

Two important things to remember are that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter and that History is written by the Victor.

Just and Unjust are subjective words that are open to interpretation. I can guarantee that people like Hitler did no think they were evil. The most horrible person in the world does not wake up and go 'I am evil!' they think what they are doing is for the best of the world, they think they are justified.

And to go back to the murder thing where it was said God would forgive a murderer becouse he made them that way then surely God would forgive someone like Hitler in which case it could be argued that Hitlers countless acts of genocide and war crimes were justified becouse he was doing what God made him do.

Now thats a scary thought.

No war is Justified, only a tragic loss of life in each sides idea of protecting the greater 'good'. So i cime back to the point that God would not be with an army he would only be saddened by the death of his creations.

"Hospitaller: I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here
[points to head]
Hospitaller: and here
[points to heart]
Hospitaller: and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not. "

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

I have to wonder...just how many wars have been started due to confusion and/or fear? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably most, wether its legitamite(spelling) fear/confusion or not is another question tho

DeAdLy2323
11-28-2007, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by MalachiDrake:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tela:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

I have to wonder...just how many wars have been started due to confusion and/or fear?

Too many I would say http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Especialy if you look back into our deepest histories when our cultures would be meeting people who looked different to them for the first ever, and spoke differently.

It's far to recent that people of 'differing' skin colours were seen as something less than human.

How much pride man kind has of its creations and yet our heritage is full of stupidty, confusion and hate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>all wars are started from confusion and/or fear. either that or assumption. i heard this somewhere and i think its corny but here it goes...assume makes an *** out of u and me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

stix489
11-28-2007, 07:00 PM
Firstly, I do not believe that God creates people evil. He creates them neutral if you may. Sure people have different personalities and whatnot but God doesn't create people to be purposely against Him.

I believe that God creates people with free will. People have the choice to be what they want to be. Murderers do not exist because God created them like that...they chose to be like that.


But perhaps the Germans did not see it that way. Perhaps they felt that the Africans had threatened their way of life, posed a danger to world peace or had attacked an ally of Germany. In this case the Geramns would think they are Justified and then the Africans would be unjust to retaliate. Now you can make it even more confusing: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

God would know which came first. And he would judge accordingly. Just because us men think that something is good, doesn't make it good in God's eyes.


God would not be with an army he would only be saddened by the death of his creations.



This is true, but God has the ability to alter anything to suit His will...but if he stopped this war for example, then who knows what other wars would have been waged!

Tela
11-28-2007, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by antonfc1248:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tela:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MalachiDrake:
But perhaps the Germans did not see it that way. Perhaps they felt that the Africans had threatened their way of life, posed a danger to world peace or had attacked an ally of Germany. In this case the Geramns would think they are Justified and then the Africans would be unjust to retaliate. Now you can make it even more confusing: What came first, the chicken or the egg?



Germnay has a technological break through and builds a Battleship, Africa thinks "hmm I want some of that" and makes their own Ship. Germany takes this as a threat so makes 5 more for protection but then Africa thinks the Germans are preparing for war and make 10 ships and make a sneal attack. The war ends but Five years later Africa makes 10 more ships for defense but Germany thinks Africa will attack again so they attack first. Who is right and who is wrong?

Two important things to remember are that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter and that History is written by the Victor.

Just and Unjust are subjective words that are open to interpretation. I can guarantee that people like Hitler did no think they were evil. The most horrible person in the world does not wake up and go 'I am evil!' they think what they are doing is for the best of the world, they think they are justified.

And to go back to the murder thing where it was said God would forgive a murderer becouse he made them that way then surely God would forgive someone like Hitler in which case it could be argued that Hitlers countless acts of genocide and war crimes were justified becouse he was doing what God made him do.

Now thats a scary thought.

No war is Justified, only a tragic loss of life in each sides idea of protecting the greater 'good'. So i cime back to the point that God would not be with an army he would only be saddened by the death of his creations.

"Hospitaller: I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here
[points to head]
Hospitaller: and here
[points to heart]
Hospitaller: and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not. "

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

I have to wonder...just how many wars have been started due to confusion and/or fear? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably most, wether its legitamite(spelling) fear/confusion or not is another question tho </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm...for some reason, coming to mind, is WWII. Can't quite remember what that one was about, though.

AldirTheKnight
11-28-2007, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
Firstly, I do not believe that God creates people evil. He creates them neutral if you may. Sure people have different personalities and whatnot but God doesn't create people to be purposely against Him.

I believe that God creates people with free will. People have the choice to be what they want to be. Murderers do not exist because God created them like that...they chose to be like that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> But perhaps the Germans did not see it that way. Perhaps they felt that the Africans had threatened their way of life, posed a danger to world peace or had attacked an ally of Germany. In this case the Geramns would think they are Justified and then the Africans would be unjust to retaliate. Now you can make it even more confusing: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

God would know which came first. And he would judge accordingly. Just because us men think that something is good, doesn't make it good in God's eyes.


God would not be with an army he would only be saddened by the death of his creations.



This is true, but God has the ability to alter anything to suit His will...but if he stopped this war for example, then who knows what other wars would have been waged! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You just contradicted yourself, you talked about Free Will, yet you mention that He has the power to alter anything to suit His will?

DeAdLy2323
11-28-2007, 07:02 PM
it was about killing anyone that was not perfect in hitler's eyes. and about control of territory



and yes people have free will, god chooses to let people live however they want, but just because he chooses for people to have free will, doesn't mean he can't alter them either. like if i choose not to eat a cookie doesn't mean that i can't

antonfc1248
11-28-2007, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by MalachiDrake:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tela:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

I have to wonder...just how many wars have been started due to confusion and/or fear?

Too many I would say http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Especialy if you look back into our deepest histories when our cultures would be meeting people who looked different to them for the first ever, and spoke differently.

It's far to recent that people of 'differing' skin colours were seen as something less than human.

How much pride man kind has of its creations and yet our heritage is full of stupidty, confusion and hate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but yet our greatest creation is our belief in all things good, free speech, equal opportunities, etc

so it is only our huge failings from the past that make our recent achievements worth noting

NECESARY_EVIL
11-28-2007, 07:03 PM
DEBATE! (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/1841098216)

DeAdLy2323
11-28-2007, 07:07 PM
lets lock this thread, just to keep that talk in one main one

MalachiDrake
11-28-2007, 07:08 PM
about the god forgives hitler thing.... god will forgive you as long as you ask for it. i doubt hitler asked to be forgiven because as you put it, he did not think he was wrong.

and about the africa fight germany thing. this is going on right now. america is being very cautious because north korea has begun building and testing nuclear bombs, and i believe america assumes they are preparing for war. (for the record i am american)

Please do not think for one miniute that I think Hitler was right.I am saddened by the acts of the Nazi's during the war, but this is a hypothetical question.

If all men are 'shaped' in gods image (I think thats the term) then how unfair it must be for Hitler becouse he was made the way he was by God. So if God made him to think he was doing a right thing and so he saw no reason to ask for forgivness then God has just shafted him royaly.

I much prefer the concept that God has made us all with free will and that he does not care about our religion, race and creed or how many times we pray and ask for forgivness.

Instead I think he will judge us all on how we choose to live the life he has given us.

Maybe, 5 seconds before he died Hitler had a sudden realisation and regret and asked for forgivness and is now in heaven while 5'000 jews are in hell becouse they did not know they were about to die and so could not ask for forgivness and are now in hell for stealing one loaf of bread... its a unfair system that I dount any god would consider using.

Instead God in his wisdom would judge a person on what was in their heart and soul - how they lived their life.

While I do not doubt the holy books have good morals in them I can honestly say that I think the religious doctines of seeking forgivness or going to hell etc are all tools of rulers who edited the meaning of the text to instil fear on the masses as a method of contol.

Several hundred years ago it was only a small fraction of the population who could read and those were the same people that were ruling the world.

discuss http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

stix489
11-28-2007, 07:19 PM
You just contradicted yourself, you talked about Free Will, yet you mention that He has the power to alter anything to suit His will?

Yes we do have free will...and yes, God can alter anything to suit His will...He can, but he doesn't have to. He usually let's things roll the way they are...and let people "learn from their mistakes" the hard way!

DeAdLy2323
11-28-2007, 07:24 PM
lets continue this in the debate thread

Pr0metheus 1962
11-28-2007, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">God doesn't care about us praising Him.

That's not true...of course He does! That is why he wanted sacrifices and the such...it's in the Old Testament! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I suppose because it's in a book written at a time when people were stoned for wearing different kinds of cloth at the same time it must be true. I guess they didn't teach critical thinking in your church. I wonder why that is?

stix489
11-28-2007, 09:50 PM
People pray you know...that itself is praising God. Plus if you do not believe that the Bible was written by people who were inspired by God, then what kind of Christian are you?

Pr0metheus 1962
11-28-2007, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by MalachiDrake:
We are the only species on this planet who have shown the ability to do what we do: Create, Invent, Discover, Debate and devlop languages. We are also the only species that kills our own species and not even in self-defense or for survival but becouse of petty reasons.

This is not true. Chimpanzees have been recorded (by Jane Goodall and others) doing all of those activities (except perhaps debate because their language is simpler than ours) and they engage in infanticide, cannibalism and war. In the 1960s two groups of Chimps in the Gombe National Park in Tanzania were observed engaging in a four year war that resulted in the eradication of an entire group of Chimpanzees - in other words genocide.

stix489
11-28-2007, 10:03 PM
Well? Answer me...I'm curious to know!

Pr0metheus 1962
11-28-2007, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by DeAdLy2323:
now this is one sided, the mozilla spellchecker says muslim is spelled wrong if not capatilized but it doesnt matter for catholic.

That's because the word 'catholic' is not only a proper name, but Muslim is. Catholic is an adjective maning 'all-embracing'. So it's not one-sided or anti-Catholic.

Kieran_Y
11-28-2007, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
I believe that God creates people with free will. People have the choice to be what they want to be. Murderers do not exist because God created them like that...they chose to be like that.


To those who are/remain religious, how can you possibly agree with the answer to all critical issues "God works in mysterious ways?" Thats the most BS answer I've ever heard. My main issue is with what was supposed to be a gift of "free choice." Can you really truly control yourself to do what is "good" and what is "evil?" Why is it that some people are more prone to do "good" than others? It is simply because everyone else "chooses" evil? No. Genetics has taught me that people are indeed pre-dispositioned to do certain things more than others. SHould someone be condemned to hell because their psychological development, both genetic and environmental, made them that way? They certainly didn't choose that before they were born. It was forced upon them. By whom? Of course the one who works in mysterious ways. I see it as Him choosing everyone's destiny before they are even born. Free choice? yeah right.

Child soldiers, religious "terrorists", mentally challenged "criminals" all go to hell because they took the time to carefully choose their way of life.

stix489
11-28-2007, 10:16 PM
You chose to type this post up correct? Or did God force you? Big actions or small actions, free will is still there.

And God judges you according to what you know...if a mentally ill person commits a crime, he will not go to hell if he didn't know it was a crime. A sin is a sin if you do it purposely, and with full consent.

Kieran_Y
11-28-2007, 10:26 PM
"You chose to type this post up correct? Or did God force you?" That not this issue at hand. Free will, means my own will, all the time, any time. I chose to be born in North America, chose to be raised in a middle class society on the west side of town, chose to live in a functional, low crime society. I am therefore automatically less prone to "sin", because there is less "temptation."

The child in war torn africa chose to be born there, chose to be born as a product of rape, chose to be raised into a warclan, chose to be taught to kill, chose to live without access to food and water. He now has to make the decision to let himself die, because the only way to live would be to "sin." I love how God works in mysterious ways.

Kieran_Y
11-28-2007, 10:30 PM
I'll make that african child's life even better. He has no genetic defects whatsoever, is considered psychologically normal, and grows to full adulthood. He is fully "capable" of making his own "choice" to "sin" since now he is still in a warclan, killing for food, diamonds, and land.

Kieran_Y
11-28-2007, 10:31 PM
God chooses your life and how you live it for you before you're born(assuming he exists). Thats not much of a free choice.

stix489
11-28-2007, 10:34 PM
Sure...if God was to make everyone happy, then the world would be perfect. But because of Adam and Eve, this was all lost. I'm not saying that this child chose to be that way. But, as they say, everything happens for a reason. Maybe he was "placed" there as a test...

Now you didn't answer my previous question...do you not have the power to control what you do...there are some things which are out of one's control, but the majority of his/her life is based on decisions made by that one person.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-28-2007, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
Do you think it is right to kill others in defense of your country?

Since I bought Assassin's Creed I've been reading a lot of books about the Crusades and the mindset of 12th Century people. According to some of the most eminent historians people in the 12th Century would have regarded war in defence of a country as ridiculous.

Personally I too regard it as ridiculous. A country is not worth a drop of blood, nor is a religion. In my view anyone who thinks otherwise is a damned fool.

Kieran_Y
11-28-2007, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
Sure...if God was to make everyone happy, then the world would be perfect. But because of Adam and Eve, this was all lost. I'm not saying that this child chose to be that way. But, as they say, everything happens for a reason. Maybe he was "placed" there as a test...

Now you didn't answer my previous question...do you not have the power to control what you do...there are some things which are out of one's control, but the majority of his/her life is based on decisions made by that one person.

Yes i have the power to make my own choices, AFTER god made the VAST majority of them for me. He certainly didn't give them to me the instant I was born. Again I thought free will meant, my own will all the time any time. Isn't that the point? But no according to Christianity its "free choice" AFTER you become aware that you are capable of being independent.

" But, as they say, everything happens for a reason. Maybe he was "placed" there as a test..." So why does God like to test poor disenfranchised people ALL THE TIME. God never test rich, fat, westerners. He never makes their land go into drought, takes away their food and shelter, turns the land into warzones. No, no, no, God only chooses to test the poor because they chose to be poor and therefore are more likley to live a life of sin.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-28-2007, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
People pray you know...that itself is praising God. Plus if you do not believe that the Bible was written by people who were inspired by God, then what kind of Christian are you?

The Quaker kind. And 'inspired by God' does not mean 'free from error'. There's one bit of the Bible that I regard as undeniably true - and that's the part where it says that we shouldn't trust it (2 Corinthians 3:6). That part of me which is in direct contact with God (the primary source of spirituality) confirms that that part of the Bible is true. Other parts of the Bible, such as the idea that women who are having their period are unclean, that eating rabbit meat and shellfish is an abomination, or that people should be killed for wearing blends of cloth, not so much.

Basically, if God inspired the book of Leviticus, then God is a complete raving nutcase.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-28-2007, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
Sure...if God was to make everyone happy, then the world would be perfect. But because of Adam and Eve, this was all lost...

We Quakers call that 'pleading for sin'. Original sin is not a 'Christian doctrine'. Some sects of Christianity hold to it, others believe we are not automatically sinful.

This ridiculous notion that we are mired in sin is looked upon by Atheists, Agnostics and some Christians as laughable because it suggests a God who holds a grudge and who holds the very people who believe in Him hostage for a crime none of them committed. In my view that God, if He exists, is not even worth knowing, let alone praising. That God is a tyrant and a psychopath. I prefer to believe in the loving God that Jesus believed in, who is capable of infinite and unconditional love.

stix489
11-28-2007, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by Kieran_Y:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stix489:
Sure...if God was to make everyone happy, then the world would be perfect. But because of Adam and Eve, this was all lost. I'm not saying that this child chose to be that way. But, as they say, everything happens for a reason. Maybe he was "placed" there as a test...

Now you didn't answer my previous question...do you not have the power to control what you do...there are some things which are out of one's control, but the majority of his/her life is based on decisions made by that one person.

Yes i have the power to make my own choices, AFTER god made the VAST majority of them for me. He certainly didn't give them to me the instant I was born. Again I thought free will meant, my own will all the time any time. Isn't that the point? But no according to Christianity its "free choice" AFTER you become aware that you are capable of being independent.

" But, as they say, everything happens for a reason. Maybe he was "placed" there as a test..." So why does God like to test poor disenfranchised people ALL THE TIME. God never test rich, fat, westerners. He never makes their land go into drought, takes away their food and shelter, turns the land into warzones. No, no, no, God only chooses to test the poor because they chose to be poor and therefore are more likley to live a life of sin. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right when you were born, were you aware enough to choose your life, where to go, what to do? Of course you weren't, that is why God puts you where you are meant to be.

And God does not only test the poor, that's ridiculous. Sure the rich have money, but are they happy on the inside, are they without any problems? And the rich are more likely to live a life of sin, because they have the power to do as they please, to an extent of course.

Kieran_Y
11-28-2007, 11:17 PM
And God does not only test the poor, that's ridiculous. Sure the rich have money, but are they happy on the inside, are they without any problems?

No its not ridiculous, are the poor happy on the inside, are the poor without any problems? Poor people are just like any human beings, just with less money lol.


And the rich are more likely to live a life of sin, because they have the power to do as they please


WHAT?!! what happened to free will? Why the hell do rich people have "more free will" than poor people?

Tela
11-28-2007, 11:20 PM
I has a question(i'm not trying to get anyone mad, but I seriously want to know): I believe God, the Devil, Heaven, and Hell exist, but I follow neither the Devil nor God. Would God consider this (bad?) or would he accept it?

Pr0metheus 1962
11-28-2007, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Kieran_Y:
why does God like to test poor disenfranchised people ALL THE TIME...

The answer is that he doesn't. If God really tested people it would mean he was not omniscient. An all-knowing God wouldn't need to test people because an all-knowing God would know the result of the test before it was administered.

Logically, God doesn't test anyone. He doesn't need to. Bad things happen to people not because of supernatural intervention or some sort of universal karmic force, but because of bad luck or bad decision-making on the part of people. If God exists He is non-interventionist in this world. This is quite obvious to anyone who looks at the situation with any objectivity.

stix489
11-28-2007, 11:26 PM
WHAT?!! what happened to free will? Why the hell do rich people have "more free will" than poor people?

It's not that they have more free will, but they have more power ie. money.

stix489
11-28-2007, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Tela:
I has a question(i'm not trying to get anyone mad, but I seriously want to know): I believe God, the Devil, Heaven, and Hell exist, but I follow neither the Devil nor God. Would God consider this (bad?) or would he accept it?

I think, and that's just me, that He does care whether or not you believe in and follow Him. I mean you believe He exists right? Then why not follow Him, you're already halfway there!

dirtybird21
11-28-2007, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by Tela:
I has a question(i'm not trying to get anyone mad, but I seriously want to know): I believe God, the Devil, Heaven, and Hell exist, but I follow neither the Devil nor God. Would God consider this (bad?) or would he accept it?

Yes, god would accept that. You do not have 2 be of the same religion 2 be favored by god... Just lead a good life and try 2 do as many good things as you can along the way...


Now remember i'm only saying this for other people who believe in god, If you don't. Just ignore this.

Tela
11-28-2007, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tela:
I has a question(i'm not trying to get anyone mad, but I seriously want to know): I believe God, the Devil, Heaven, and Hell exist, but I follow neither the Devil nor God. Would God consider this (bad?) or would he accept it?

I think, and that's just me, that He does care whether or not you believe in and follow Him. I mean you believe he exists right> Then why not follow Him, you're already halfway there! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Half-way between light and darkness equals grey. That is me.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-28-2007, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Tela:
I has a question(i'm not trying to get anyone mad, but I seriously want to know): I believe God, the Devil, Heaven, and Hell exist, but I follow neither the Devil nor God. Would God consider this (bad?) or would he accept it?

God would accept it and welcome you into Heaven (if Heaven exists). If God made us and if He's all-knowing He would have to know and accept you for what you are and for what choices you make because He gave you your character and your ability to choose. It would be a very strange God indeed who got mad because you used the very capacity to choose that God gave you. Freewill is not truly free unless you're perfectly free to make bad choices with no repercussions. This is why morality has to be subjective - YOU are the only one who gets to decide what's right for you. If God decides that stuff then it makes a mockery of freewill. I don't believe God would be childish enough to grant freewill and then punish us for the choices we make - choices that he gave us and that he had to know we would make.

dirtybird21
11-28-2007, 11:34 PM
I believe in god and i believe in heaven, But i do not believe in hell... If anyone REALLY wants an explanation i will give one i just hate typing it up lol.

Tela
11-28-2007, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by dirtybird21:
I believe in god and i believe in heaven, But i do not believe in hell... If anyone REALLY wants an explanation i will give one i just hate typing it up lol.

Well I want an explanation.

stix489
11-28-2007, 11:37 PM
Make that two of us http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

dirtybird21
11-28-2007, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Tela:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dirtybird21:
I believe in god and i believe in heaven, But i do not believe in hell... If anyone REALLY wants an explanation i will give one i just hate typing it up lol.

Well I want an explanation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

God Dammit. lol.

Alright so...

First off, If god is forgiving, Why would he sent you 2 burn forever, That doesn't seem 2 make sense at all... Plus, making you burn forever would mean having 2 make you LIVE forever... What now?

Also, The origin of "hell" came from the name of a place where they disposed of garbage, It was set on fire and was ALWAYS burning. (i forgot the name of it, Anyone wanna find it for me?) It was a metaphorical use... Aside from that there is NO mention of hell in the bible.

Tela
11-28-2007, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by dirtybird21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tela:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dirtybird21:
I believe in god and i believe in heaven, But i do not believe in hell... If anyone REALLY wants an explanation i will give one i just hate typing it up lol.

Well I want an explanation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

God Dammit. lol.

Alright so...

First off, If god is forgiving, Why would he sent you 2 burn forever, That doesn't seem 2 make sense at all... Plus, making you burn forever would mean having 2 make you LIVE forever... What now?

Also, The origin of "hell" came from the name of a place where they disposed of garbage, It was set on fire and was ALWAYS burning. (i forgot the name of it, Anyone wanna find it for me?) It was a metaphorical use... Aside from that there is NO mention of hell in the bible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suppose...that makes sense. (in an odd sort of way). "Hell" seriously was that?!

...

And DON"T say the lords name in vain! (I'm not serious. can't be serious when it comes to veins...)

Kieran_Y
11-28-2007, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
It's not that they have more free will, but they have more power ie. money.

So why does god put an apple tree and a serpent in a barbed wire enclosure and asks for a $100,000 entrance fee in front of both a poor and a rich couple?

dirtybird21
11-28-2007, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by Kieran_Y:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stix489:
It's not that they have more free will, but they have more power ie. money.

So why does god put an apple tree and a serpent in a barbed wire enclosure and asks for a $100,000 entrance fee in front of both a poor and a rich couple? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


-Tacos-

Simple and plain.

And @ Tela... Yeah, It was just taken 2 literal by some people and they created their OWN idea out of it.

stix489
11-28-2007, 11:45 PM
First off, If god is forgiving, Why would he sent you 2 burn forever, That doesn't seem 2 make sense at all... Plus, making you burn forever would mean having 2 make you LIVE forever... What now?

Also, The origin of "hell" came from the name of a place where they disposed of garbage, It was set on fire and was ALWAYS burning. (i forgot the name of it, Anyone wanna find it for me?) It was a metaphorical use... Aside from that there is NO mention of hell in the bible.


WOW dude! No offense, but your whole post is wrong!!

Firstly, God doesn't send you to Hell, you send yourself to hell. God doesn't want to you to go down there, but if you chose not to believe or live a good life, then cya later. If you end up in hell, it's your fault, not God's.

Secondly, What do you mean Hell was the name of some rubbish dump? I don't get that!

Finally, Hell is mentioned many times in the Bible...many many times! "Where there is gnashing of teeth"

dirtybird21
11-28-2007, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">First off, If god is forgiving, Why would he sent you 2 burn forever, That doesn't seem 2 make sense at all... Plus, making you burn forever would mean having 2 make you LIVE forever... What now?

Also, The origin of "hell" came from the name of a place where they disposed of garbage, It was set on fire and was ALWAYS burning. (i forgot the name of it, Anyone wanna find it for me?) It was a metaphorical use... Aside from that there is NO mention of hell in the bible.


WOW dude! No offense, but your whole post is wrong!!

Firstly, God doesn't send you to Hell, you send yourself to hell. God doesn't want to you to go down there, but if you chose not to believe or live a good life, then cya later. If you end up in hell, it's your fault, not God's.

Secondly, What do you mean Hell was the name of some rubbish dump? I don't get that!

Finally, Hell is mentioned many times in the Bible...many many times! "Where there is gnashing of teeth" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All metaphores... And you can look it up, The dump part is true..

Also the whole idea of hell is contradictory... Hell is supposedly the absense of god... But god is EVERYWHERE so that is not possible.


Btw you got it wrong, Hell wasn't actually called "hell" at first, (and i don't mean purgatory either) It was a metaphore using the name of a dump that they kept lit forever... I can't recall the exact name of it though...

Tela
11-28-2007, 11:50 PM
I thought Hell was a place where tortured souls go to be punished. Never actually heard of there being the devil there, or an abscence of god.

dirtybird21
11-28-2007, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by Tela:
I thought Hell was a place where tortured souls go to be punished. Never actually heard of there being the devil there, or an abscence of god.

A lot of people have alot of different versions of hell... Which also more-so proves that it is just an IDEA invented by MEN.

Tela
11-28-2007, 11:53 PM
Or it's really just the earth's core, and there's nothing special about it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

dirtybird21
11-28-2007, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Tela:
Or it's really just the earth's core, and there's nothing special about it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

There is defenetly something special about the earths core... There is probably a gaybashing timetraveling god alien down there eating tacos.

Tela
11-28-2007, 11:57 PM
Could we join him?

Eat tacos...buy no-more-loved beanie baby's...throw Royal.Mist into the fires of the TRUE Hell...

dirtybird21
11-28-2007, 11:59 PM
Lmao, These are the NEW tenants of the creed...

Tela
11-29-2007, 12:00 AM
@ Dirtybird: Goodnight!! (have to sleep now, or will pass out....)

dirtybird21
11-29-2007, 12:01 AM
Peace, I was gonna hit the sack anyway... It's 11...

Pr0metheus 1962
11-29-2007, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by stix489:
Secondly, What do you mean Hell was the name of some rubbish dump? I don't get that!

From Wikipedia:


Gehenna (or gehenom or gehinom (גהי*ום)) is the Jewish hell or purgatory. In Judaism hell is a place of purification and fire for the wicked, most being punished there up to a year but some for eternity.

In English, Jews commonly use the term "hell" in place of "gehenna." The name derived from the burning garbage dump near Jerusalem (the Hinnom gulch), metaphorically identified with the entrance to the underworld of punishment in the afterlife.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-29-2007, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by dirtybird21:
Lmao, These are the NEW tenants of the creed...

How much rent do these 'tenants' pay? LOL.

I think you mean 'tenets'.

DreamerM
11-29-2007, 11:30 AM
This is the kind of thing that happens when you any sort of fiction centered around a historical religious conflict. You've got to be very careful: I in fact approve of the disclaimer at the very beginning because it's the production team stating that they didn't create this fiction to promote any sort of religous dogma, and the emphasis that it was a multi-cultural, multi-religous team implies they are open to seeing the conflict from all sides, and I think they've actually handled the religous aspect of the game with a lot of tact. Naturally, you can't make a game about the Crusades without giving religion a lot of lip-service, but the fact that our central Assassin characters value Peace, not God, and will kill anyone of any faith who is oppressing and terrifying the common people keeps our eye firmly on the fact that Empathy and respect for humanity itself is more important then any ritualized dogma.

The Crusades were bad news for everyone involved: jew, muslim, christian and everything else. Whoever's idea it was that three major religions would share the same Holy Sites was an idiot, even though for a long long time there were no problems. A building could be a mosque one day and a temple the next and a church the day after that and everyone respected each other and left each other alone.

Then, for some reason, a Muslim king burned down an important church in his city. To this day no one really knows why he did it, and the church was later rebuilt, by then it was too late: the news of the "Heathen King's barbarous act" had already reached the European kingdoms and the Crusades to "Liberate" the Holy Land were underway. I suppose it can be understood on a base level: the Dark Ages Europeans were always eager to extend their power to new areas and they did precieve the burning of the church as an outright attack on their faith in the very place where it matters most, but I don't think anyone nowadays thinks it was a good idea to march all those miles to wrench the lands from those who had lived there for thousands of years.

Thousands of people of all faiths died in the ensuing conflict. It was bad news for everyone. In a way I think the Assassins (in this game anyway: the historical hashashin might be another matter) had the most relateable cause, simply because they kept their eyes on earth, on the people who suffered, rather then to heaven for justification of the suffering.

dirtybird21
11-29-2007, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stix489:
Secondly, What do you mean Hell was the name of some rubbish dump? I don't get that!

From Wikipedia:


Gehenna (or gehenom or gehinom (גהי*ום)) is the Jewish hell or purgatory. In Judaism hell is a place of purification and fire for the wicked, most being punished there up to a year but some for eternity.

In English, Jews commonly use the term "hell" in place of "gehenna." The name derived from the burning garbage dump near Jerusalem (the Hinnom gulch), metaphorically identified with the entrance to the underworld of punishment in the afterlife. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, As soon as i read the word i remembered 2 lol....

And lol my bad (@ the misspelling.)

Pr0metheus 1962
11-29-2007, 04:47 PM
Sorry. I didn't mean to criticise. I just thought it was funny because I had this vision of all these people lining up to pay Al Mualim rent, hehe.

dirtybird21
11-29-2007, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Beeryus:
Sorry. I didn't mean to criticise. I just thought it was funny because I had this vision of all these people lining up to pay Al Mualim rent, hehe.

Yeah i know, I thought it was pretty funny 2 once you pointed it out 2 me lol...

Dunno
12-01-2007, 11:29 PM
The crusades were mainly spawned of people who did not believe in god. Do not let this fool you. Free passage to heaven, no matter what you have done is bound to attract sinners. Puritans, also, were an extremist sect. Today, modern sciences tell us to carry out witch trials with evidence from CSI.

Also, Islam and Christianity are not the same, nor Judaism. I am pretty sure no Christian, Islam, or ...maybe jew would like to be grouped with the other's religion, as although we may derive from similar roofs our beliefs are strictly different. You would be surprised how different Jesus has made us from one another.

Personally, I think most Christians are terrible arguers, myself included. This might be from the fact we have had no need to practice, or we just plain suck at it. I don't know. But what I do know is this: Satan's greatest trick has been to make man believe he does not exist. Just be aware that while you may be able to go to god, god will under no circumstances ever come to you. This is the point that Christians try to make. I personally have looked into these Aetheists questions stated on this website, and I myself am assured there is a God, which is my opinion based on my opinion. I urge you to look into it, and make up your mind as well, as an educated citizen.

You can do or believe whatever you want. No force is preventing you from this. All anyone will ask is that we respect eachother and not try any of these stupid conversions both sides are at fault for starting, of which I am also guilty.

And to all you half christians out there, God said "Let there be light!" which created days. Why the heck would he go by any other day measurement?

stix489
12-01-2007, 11:47 PM
And how easily EDITED it is!

Dunno
12-01-2007, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by stix489:
And how easily EDITED it is!

Sorry what? I don't think I caught what you were referring to.

Tela
12-02-2007, 12:01 AM
Wikipedia can be easily edited. As in, it can be editd by anyone, really.

Dunno
12-02-2007, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Tela:
Wikipedia can be easily edited. As in, it can be editd by anyone, really.

Oh I know right? It just makes me want to tell them "Wow, you used Wikipedia as an information source... you are so cool." <sarcasm>. but that would be kind of mean.

I thought he was talking about the Bible, though, so I was kind of stuck between the two.

DreamerM
12-02-2007, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by Kieran_Y:
Bible bashing is fine, because Christians don't go running out into the street, burning flags and effigies of said offender. They also don't shout death threats and go about blowing themselves up in public and killing others in the process.

They're called the Klu Klux Klan, and they burn effigies and crosses, bomb buildings and churches, and hang people at the slightest provocation. People calling themselves "christians" attack doctors for working at Abortion clinics, beat gay teenagers to death, and cast out their 13-year-old daughters for getting pregnant.

Likewise, if you've ever actually read about Muhammad and the message he was trying to send about peace, universal brotherhood and equality, mercy and compassion for people and animals, it's hard to find fault with the man. And the Koran contains what is arguably some of the most beautiful poetry ever written.

It's never as simple as you think. Keep your minds open.

stix489
12-02-2007, 12:18 AM
No offense...but why do some Muslims blow themselves up, killing many, in the name of religion?

Kieran_Y
12-02-2007, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by DreamerM:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kieran_Y:
Bible bashing is fine, because Christians don't go running out into the street, burning flags and effigies of said offender. They also don't shout death threats and go about blowing themselves up in public and killing others in the process.

They're called the Klu Klux Klan, and they burn effigies and crosses, bomb buildings and churches, and hang people at the slightest provocation. People calling themselves "christians" attack doctors for working at Abortion clinics, beat gay teenagers to death, and cast out their 13-year-old daughters for getting pregnant.

Likewise, if you've ever actually read about Muhammad and the message he was trying to send about peace, universal brotherhood and equality, mercy and compassion for people and animals, it's hard to find fault with the man. And the Koran contains what is arguably some of the most beautiful poetry ever written.

It's never as simple as you think. Keep your minds open. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

last time I checked the KKK wasn't a self proclaimed Christian group, but please educate me if otherwise. How often do said events in North America take place? Right.

Edit: Yes actually the KKK is a Christian group if memory serves me right.

DreamerM
12-02-2007, 12:33 AM
last time I checked the KKK wasn't a self proclaimed Christian group, but please educate me if otherwise.

Yes. The KKK proclaims itself a Christian group. This is a recent event from it's website.


2007 National Christmas Fellowship Conference

December 1st and 2nd

at the White Christian Revival Center at Harrison, AR

Speakers, holiday banquet, Heritage Connection band, Children's activities including cookie decorating, games, and Bible lessons -meet wonderful Christian families who share your concerns. Motels nearby, white heritage books and souvenirs available. All White Christian patriots invited. Call 870-427-3414 for more info.

And I hope that convinces you, or else I just actually WENT to the KKK website and found out there was such a thing as a "White Pride Video Podcast" for nothing. Excuse me while I go wash out my brain. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

How often does that stuff happen? Have you read the news lately? More often then anyone would care to admit.

Kieran_Y
12-02-2007, 12:41 AM
bomb buildings and churches, and hang people at the slightest provocation. People calling themselves "christians" attack doctors for working at Abortion clinics, beat gay teenagers to death

"bomb buildings and churches, and hang people at the slightest provocation. People calling themselves "christians" attack doctors for working at Abortion clinics, beat gay teenagers to death" do I deny that this had happened? No it certainly has. Have I read the news lately? Go on the internet and pull up something for me that has any of the above mentioned in the past week. Thats right not frequent enough. Good luck with that. All i have to do is turn the TV on and someone has blown up a bus full of civilians in the name of Allah.

Kieran_Y
12-02-2007, 12:51 AM
Yes. The KKK proclaims itself a Christian group.

if you took the time to read my post, it would have saved you the time of researching all that info for me, but thanks anyways.

DreamerM
12-02-2007, 01:12 AM
Go on the internet and pull up something for me that has any of the above mentioned in the past week.

Oh man, do I really have to?.... Alright...

New York Man on Trial for Cross Burning (http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071201/NEWS02/712010344/1023/NEWS07)
Posted two hours ago.

Cops declare Noose and Racist Slur on High School Campus Not Hate Crime (http://www.nbcsandiego.com/education/14731775/detail.html)

Seattle Cab Driver Injured in Racist Attack (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004039447_cabdriver28m.html)

Hateful Graffiti at House (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071128/NEWS03/711280359/1005)

Quote from above because it's very telling:

he man, who police said is of Middle Eastern descent, didn't want his name released. His property on Plum Ridge was spray-painted with racial and sexual remarks, swastikas, Ku Klux Klan symbols and other discriminatory images.

He spent the day cleaning up the graffiti.

"It's sad," the man said Tuesday afternoon.

....As deputies investigated, an African-American man who lives on Plum Ridge said his vehicle also had been broken into. Although nothing appeared to be missing, a box of bullets was left in the vehicle, the Sheriff's Office said.

All these within the past two days.

This is America, a country founded on the idea tat everyone has a right to be free. And we do this kind of thing.

And to listen to you snear and say "it's not often enough" to prove anything makes me sick. Utterly and totally sick. You've actually rendered me speachless (which is a very difficult thing to do by the way.) Not often enough...How often does it need to happen for you to accept that each relgion has it's side of utter and complete uglyness and that that ugliness is far from exclusive to any religion or nation or ethnic appearence?

YOU are what's wrong with humanity. You and you're willingness to screw your eyes shut and say no, your people, your people would never do this stuff. It's all those other people. They're the only horrible ones.

You. Make. Me. Sick.

dirtybird21
12-02-2007, 01:17 AM
Christian attacks don't happen nearly as often, But they aren't shown as much either, If there is a bombing and a cross burning in the same week, They will totally ignore the cross burning and focus on the bombing... Because we're at war with iraq muslims are going 2 get the most attention... You will see far less things like dreamer posted than there is actually happening, Most people care less about that stuff, So it gets less show-time.

DreamerM
12-02-2007, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by dirtybird21:
Because we're at war with iraq muslims are going 2 get the most attention...

Oh Lord help us, we can't even get our own nation's main conflict right.

We are not at war WITH Iraq. We are at war with the Iraqi insurgents, the guys who think we are invading their country and should get the hell out. We are allied with the Iraqis who want us to set up a democratic government and military before we do that.

So we're fighting some Iraqis and allied with others. The problem is, we can't tell and really have no way of telling which is which. Which is why things over there are so F*cking confusing.

Pr0metheus 1962
12-02-2007, 10:34 AM
Originally posted (then amended, removing this bit) by Dunno:
"Using wikipedia as a source of reference? you do know how innaccurate Wikipedia is right?

Actually Wikipedia has been tested and found to compare well when measured against Encyclopedia Britannica.

By the way, the information about Gehenna can be checked elsewhere - it is perfectly correct.

Pr0metheus 1962
12-02-2007, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Dunno:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tela:
Wikipedia can be easily edited. As in, it can be editd by anyone, really.

Oh I know right? It just makes me want to tell them "Wow, you used Wikipedia as an information source... you are so cool." <sarcasm>. but that would be kind of mean... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or it could be that you found out that what you originally wrote didn't hold up to much scrutiny. If you don't believe Wikipedia it's fairly easy to check the info. One of the first rules of debate - address the information, not its source.

Pr0metheus 1962
12-02-2007, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by DreamerM:
We are not at war WITH Iraq. We are at war with the Iraqi insurgents, the guys who think we are invading their country and should get the hell out.

Newsflash! We ARE invading their country and we SHOULD get the hell out.


We are allied with the Iraqis who want us to set up a democratic government and military before we do that.

And these are the 'legitimate' Iraqis right? Because what - because they are the minority that support us? That is called 'collaboration'. It's hardly something to be proud of. After all, that's what Benedict Arnold is most famous for. Somehow I don't think any loyal American is proud of him, so why should Iraqis be proud of their Benedict Arnolds?

Shouldn't the Iraqis be the ones to decide what system of government they live under, without foreign intervention? Isn't SELF determination what democracy is all about? I mean by your reasoning America should still be a British colony. As an Englishman I'd be all for that, but I don't think many Americans would be all that happy about it.

I mean what sort of 'democracy' can a foreign military install at the point of a gun?

DreamerM
12-02-2007, 01:43 PM
I mean what sort of 'democracy' can a foreign military install at the point of a gun?

An iffy one, at best. I simply recited the details of the conflict the best I can understand them.

I think the whole thing is an absolute mess.

Kieran_Y
12-02-2007, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by DreamerM:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Go on the internet and pull up something for me that has any of the above mentioned in the past week.

Oh man, do I really have to?.... Alright...

New York Man on Trial for Cross Burning (http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071201/NEWS02/712010344/1023/NEWS07)
Posted two hours ago.

Cops declare Noose and Racist Slur on High School Campus Not Hate Crime (http://www.nbcsandiego.com/education/14731775/detail.html)

Seattle Cab Driver Injured in Racist Attack (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004039447_cabdriver28m.html)

Hateful Graffiti at House (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071128/NEWS03/711280359/1005)

Quote from above because it's very telling:

he man, who police said is of Middle Eastern descent, didn't want his name released. His property on Plum Ridge was spray-painted with racial and sexual remarks, swastikas, Ku Klux Klan symbols and other discriminatory images.

He spent the day cleaning up the graffiti.

"It's sad," the man said Tuesday afternoon.

....As deputies investigated, an African-American man who lives on Plum Ridge said his vehicle also had been broken into. Although nothing appeared to be missing, a box of bullets was left in the vehicle, the Sheriff's Office said.

All these within the past two days.

This is America, a country founded on the idea tat everyone has a right to be free. And we do this kind of thing.

And to listen to you snear and say "it's not often enough" to prove anything makes me sick. Utterly and totally sick. You've actually rendered me speachless (which is a very difficult thing to do by the way.) Not often enough...How often does it need to happen for you to accept that each relgion has it's side of utter and complete uglyness and that that ugliness is far from exclusive to any religion or nation or ethnic appearence?

YOU are what's wrong with humanity. You and you're willingness to screw your eyes shut and say no, your people, your people would never do this stuff. It's all those other people. They're the only horrible ones.

You. Make. Me. Sick. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah nice buddy, noticed how when I quoted you, there was an instance of D E A T H? yeah Ooooooh someone drew grafiti on my walls! NO my wife and children have all committed suicide because of it! NO ONE D I E D. Turn on the news and MORE than ONE person has D I E D. Wow thats an incredibly difficult concept to comprehend. Funny how I even quoted you where you mentioned cases of D E A T H that seem to happen oh so frequently.

DreamerM
12-02-2007, 03:45 PM
Funny how I even quoted you where you mentioned cases of D E A T H that seem to happen oh so frequently.

Your willingness to quantify hate crimes in terms of severity is exactly what sickens me about you.

Don't you get that to this day black men vanish in the deep south and it goes unreported let alone uninvestigated? We put up with "Christian" hate because of people like you saying it's "not as bad." THEY are awful. WE are not. We don't do it as often or as bad.

Don't you get that the fact it happens at ALL is bad enough? We don't get to claim any moral high ground. People of all creeds and all colors can be hateful and horrible.

No wonder we can't come to any understandings and move forwards as a single species, when people like you take the hard line and claim superiority because we're "Not as bad."

Utterly ignoring what we did to make that people feel so desperate that terrorism becomes the only recourse they feel they have. In their position, we'd be doing the same things.

Kieran_Y
12-02-2007, 04:00 PM
Your willingness to quantify hate crimes in terms of severity is exactly what sickens me about you.

yeah alright because when a hate crime involves death its exactly the same as a hate crime with no casualties. Sure buddy whatever. So the situations in afghanistan/iraq are not instances of hate crime. Terrorists kill civilians from different sects of Islam and those casualties are simply just casualties. Nothing more, not intolerance, not hate, just a casualty. Sure buddy.

"Don't you get that to this day black men vanish in the deep south and it goes unreported let alone uninvestigated?" ooh I love conspiracy theorists. I can say the exact same thing about kidnappings of Shiite or Suuni Muslims in America that go unreported.

"In their position, we'd be doing the same things." Americans would kill Americans to get a foreign invader out of our country? You would really claim that? Thats a hypothetical question that neither you nor I have the answer to. So don't put that bs in there.

DreamerM
12-02-2007, 04:10 PM
Americans would kill Americans to get a foreign invader out of our country? You would really claim that?

Of course I would. Especially if the Americans being killed had allied themselves with the invaders. We'd do whatever it took to get them out.

Don't be so high and mighty. Your blindness is revolting.

Kieran_Y
12-02-2007, 04:33 PM
Of course I would. Especially if the Americans being killed had allied themselves with the invaders. We'd do whatever it took to get them out.

Yeah you nor I will never know until it happens, so your claims are just as empty as mine. It's just that I never made one. We can only tell from past and current events. Look at all occupied countries during the Second World War. Did French underground blow up civilian districts or attack civilians transit on a weekly basis, in order to destabilize France?

"Don't be so high and mighty. Your blindness is revolting." Notice how every time I quote you and point out your flaws, your arguments get smaller. Now all you have left are empty statements. Thanks for the "debate"

DreamerM
12-02-2007, 04:54 PM
Thanks for the "debate"

Thanks for all the sarcasm and the complete unwillingness to support your claims with any evidence. Thanks for the completely closed mind and the marginalizing nature. Thanks for the war and the hate and the dehumanization of those you consider less then you.

Thanks a lot.

stix489
12-05-2007, 03:52 AM
I feel like a good solid debate...preferably on the topic of religion...

Now where is Hassan-Sabbah?

Dunno
12-06-2007, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dunno:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tela:
Wikipedia can be easily edited. As in, it can be editd by anyone, really.

Oh I know right? It just makes me want to tell them "Wow, you used Wikipedia as an information source... you are so cool." <sarcasm>. but that would be kind of mean... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or it could be that you found out that what you originally wrote didn't hold up to much scrutiny. If you don't believe Wikipedia it's fairly easy to check the info. One of the first rules of debate - address the information, not its source. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If wikipedia was so correct, then universities or even middle / high schools would allow you to use it. Based on general education officials' opinion, certain parts of wikipedia are regarded as unstable/false, and not a credible reference. Personally, I find wikipedia a fantastic site to get you started on your research, but is by no means a place where you should end. It is not I who makes this rule, but your very own public library.


Actually Wikipedia has been tested and found to compare well when measured against Encyclopedia Britannica.

By the way, the information about Gehenna can be checked elsewhere - it is perfectly correct.


My answer is the same to you. The poster just cited wikipedia, which is what I found humorous.

ACfanboy12
12-07-2007, 08:19 AM
Wake up, the war on terrorism is FAKE, 911 bombin is FAKE, us going to Iraq is FAKE... new world order is real people, stand up and smell the rotten eggs.

zeitgeist.... watch the movie, it explains in facts why the New World Order is real, and why the government wants to control the people.

Pr0metheus 1962
12-07-2007, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by Dunno:
The poster just cited wikipedia, which is what I found humorous.

Why?

I mean Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia that has been tested against Encyclopedia Britannica and found to be just about as reliable. The commonly-held perception that Wikipedia is fraught with error is just not true. Sure, anyone can edit it, but that only means that MORE qualified people have access to it than have access to Britannica. The information in Wikipedia has to be verified just as it does in Britannica.

Of course public libraries and schools use other, more established, encyclopedias, and of course Wikipedia is only good as a starting reference - that's what ALL encyclopedias are for. No one goes to an encyclopedia looking for in-depth coverage of an issue. And heck, you even admit that it's great for a quick reference site - WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS USING IT AS.

Besides, any source - even Britannica - is prone to some level of error. That's why we don't rely on any single source when looking for facts.

So why do you find it funny?

Pr0metheus 1962
12-07-2007, 09:45 AM
Here's the Britannica article, which confirms that Wikipedia is right:

"Gehenna, also called Gehinnom, abode of the damned in the afterlife in Jewish and Christian eschatology (the doctrine of last things). Named in the New Testament in Greek form (from the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, meaning "valley of Hinnom"), Gehenna originally was a valley west and south of Jerusalem where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch..."

Here's the Webster definition:

"Gehenna

Main Entry: Gehenna
Pronunciation: \gi-ˈhe-nə\
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin, from Greek Geenna, from Hebrew Gē' Hinnōm, literally, valley of Hinnom
Date: circa 1534
1 : a place or state of misery
2 : hell 1a(2) "

Here's The Oxford definition:

"Gehenna (in Judaism and the New Testament) hell
ORIGIN via ecclesiastical Latin from Greek geenna, from Hebrew ge' hinnom 'hell', literally 'valley of Hinnom', a place near Jerusalem where children weresacrificed to Baal (Jer. 19:5,6)"

Here's what the Bible says:

"5 They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!

6 So beware, for the time is coming, says the Lord, when this garbage dump will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of Ben-Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter."

My point being that all these quotes are superfluous because the Wikipedia quote was correct and fine in terms of its ability to convey the information I needed to transmit.

Niles1978
10-11-2009, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by ACfanboy12:
Wake up, the war on terrorism is FAKE, 911 bombin is FAKE, us going to Iraq is FAKE... new world order is real people, stand up and smell the rotten eggs.

zeitgeist.... watch the movie, it explains in facts why the New World Order is real, and why the government wants to control the people.
I've seen zeitgeist and I was quite impressed...
There's just 1 problem with that theory;
You assume George W Bush is intelligent!
That he is some kind of Machiavellian genius, who failed at everything (from Kyoto to New Orleans) except "the 9/11-conspiracy"? hmm... I don't think so. 9/11 is just 1 of many f**k-ups over a period of 8 years. It's natural to prefer the 9/11-conspiracy, because we prefer the devil we know over the one we don't.
As for the motive for 9/11... I think that's just the result of years of arrogant foreign policies of USG. See "trials of Henry Kissinger" amongst many others.

But to get back at the subject at hand; religion. I felt Ubisoft had a really nice professional approach towards the different religions. Each religion, each group, each target was corrupted, not by the devil or the "wrong" religion, but by power itself. Altair shows us at the beginning of AC1 that even he has become arrogant and corrupted by power. We need not fear the devil, because we don't need him to destroy ourselves!
"2 things are infinate; the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the first one."
Albert Einstein.

caswallawn_2k7
10-11-2009, 03:40 PM
http://www.l4d.com/blog/images/posts/020/clown.jpg

EmperorxZurg
10-11-2009, 03:53 PM
Again with zombies! the Anti-Christ was easier to kill!
http://i36.tinypic.com/rrv1xz.jpg

thekyle0
10-11-2009, 03:55 PM
This forum is starting to give the Left for Dead forum a run for it's money, in terms of zombie population.

Justin-x
10-11-2009, 04:26 PM
I have no idea what your talking about my good sir http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
http://www.inthisweek.com/images/photos/l_171237_166590_left4dead2.jpg