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View Full Version : I-185, the plane that would've won the war...is coming!



XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 09:26 PM
Specs:

Type I-185R
Function fighter
Year 1941
Crew 1
Engines 1*2000hp Shvetsov M-71
Wing Span 9.80m
Length 8.05m
Height 2.50m
Wing Area 15.53m2
Empty Weight 3105kg
Maximum Weight 3750kg
Speed 680km/h
Ceiling 11000m
Range 950km
Armament
Guns 3*g20mm
Bombs 400kg


"A
wooden fighter monoplane, designed around the new M-90 engine. Later the M-81, M-71 and M-82 were tried; finally the M-71 was selected, and the I-185 found itself abandoned together with this engine.
Several built and used in combat in 1941."


In two words - Luftwaffe41' Kaput! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



Message Edited on 06/04/03 06:21PM by Voskhod5



Message Edited on 11/07/0304:26PM by Voskhod5

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 09:26 PM
Specs:

Type I-185R
Function fighter
Year 1941
Crew 1
Engines 1*2000hp Shvetsov M-71
Wing Span 9.80m
Length 8.05m
Height 2.50m
Wing Area 15.53m2
Empty Weight 3105kg
Maximum Weight 3750kg
Speed 680km/h
Ceiling 11000m
Range 950km
Armament
Guns 3*g20mm
Bombs 400kg


"A
wooden fighter monoplane, designed around the new M-90 engine. Later the M-81, M-71 and M-82 were tried; finally the M-71 was selected, and the I-185 found itself abandoned together with this engine.
Several built and used in combat in 1941."


In two words - Luftwaffe41' Kaput! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



Message Edited on 06/04/03 06:21PM by Voskhod5



Message Edited on 11/07/0304:26PM by Voskhod5

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 09:35 PM
Bump!

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XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 09:37 PM
A hacked up rata? I would not fly it, but wouldn't complain about getting it in a patch either.

I bet its a dog to fly. Imagine a nose-heavy rata with lots more speed but far less visibility, and inability to turn tight. Yuk! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



A jerk is a jerk in any language
Un tir³n es un tir³n en cualquier idioma
Une secousse est une secousse dans n'importe quelle langue
Ein Ruck ist ein Ruck in irgendeiner Sprache
Uno scatto ¨ uno scatto in qualunque lingua
Een ruk is een ruk in enig taal
Uma puxo é uma puxo em qualquer linguagem
Et rykk er et rykk i noe spr¥k
http://www.freetranslation.com/ (muahahahaha)

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 09:37 PM
coooool!!!

GATO_LOCO

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 09:46 PM
Looks like it should have the bad forward visibility of the La5fn, but since the La5fn has excellent visibility in the game, it should have the visibility of the P39

--lbhkilla--

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/FW190.jpg .

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"We could do with some of those razor blades, Herr Reichsmarshall."
When Erwin Rommel that British fighter-bombers had shot up my tanks with 40mm shells, the Hermann G¶ring who felt himself touched by this, said: "That's completely impossible. The Americans only know how to make razor blades." and the above was Rommels reply.

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 09:49 PM
BaldieJr wrote:

"A hacked up rata?

I bet its a dog to fly. Imagine a nose-heavy rata
with lots more speed but far less visibility, and
inability to turn tight. Yuk! "


You wish! First of all, it's not a hacked up Rata. It looks like a mix between La-5(front), Mig-3(wings) and I-16(tail)

Secondly, did you notice the 2000hp motor AND leading-edge slats? Didn't think so!

3-20mm cannons, 680km/h speed. Comparatively low weight.

That thing is gonna own 41'- 42' servers!





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Message Edited on 06/04/0304:57PM by Voskhod5

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 09:51 PM
Ah, still bitter about 190's visibility? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 10:16 PM
Just so you can vis.compare the I-16 to I-185:

http://www.kithobbyist.com/VVS/ModelGallery/Duffy/I-180_03.jpg


http://www.kithobbyist.com/VVS/ModelGallery/Duffy/I-180_04.jpg

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XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 10:27 PM
I retract the statement that was once here. I was wrong. ;-)

I still wouldn't fly that thing. lol.

PS:
I loves my Rata ;-)

A jerk is a jerk in any language
Un tir³n es un tir³n en cualquier idioma
Une secousse est une secousse dans n'importe quelle langue
Ein Ruck ist ein Ruck in irgendeiner Sprache
Uno scatto ¨ uno scatto in qualunque lingua
Een ruk is een ruk in enig taal
Uma puxo é uma puxo em qualquer linguagem
Et rykk er et rykk i noe spr¥k
http://www.freetranslation.com/ (muahahahaha)

Message Edited on 06/04/0305:41PM by BaldieJr

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 10:32 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- A hacked up rata? I would not fly it, but wouldn't
- complain about getting it in a patch either.
-
- I bet its a dog to fly. Imagine a nose-heavy rata
- with lots more speed but far less visibility, and
- inability to turn tight. Yuk!


Are you serious?

680 km/h in 1941? The FASTEST American fighter in 1941 was hard pressed to reach 500 km/h. This plane would probably outclimb and outaccelerate anything in the sky until at least the late model 109s, Yaks, and La's got on the scene.




---------------------------------

From a big bird in the sky,
All will jump and some will die.
Off to battle we will go,
To live or die, hell, I don't know.
Hail oh hail oh INFANTRY!
Queen of Battle, follow me!
An Airborne Ranger's life for me,
Oh, nothing in this world is free.

Cowace2
Commanding Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"

http://www.7jg77.com

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 10:35 PM
In other news, WHY ON EARTH WAS THE VVS NOT USING THIS ENGINE???

It sounds comparable to the R-2800, which was easily the best overall engine to be fielded during the war. Why would they not press this engine into service?




---------------------------------

From a big bird in the sky,
All will jump and some will die.
Off to battle we will go,
To live or die, hell, I don't know.
Hail oh hail oh INFANTRY!
Queen of Battle, follow me!
An Airborne Ranger's life for me,
Oh, nothing in this world is free.

Cowace2
Commanding Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"

http://www.7jg77.com

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 10:38 PM
Looks sweet and excellent modeling job. Cant wait for it as long as oleg dulls down the wood airframe damage or its gunna be another hanger dust collector like the i153 and i16

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XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 10:42 PM
Wow the data is really impressive!

"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 10:44 PM
There must have been reliability or serviceability issues, wouldn't you think? Otherwise why wouldn't they have used it?

CHRIS
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XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 10:47 PM
AK-Rocket wrote:
- There must have been reliability or serviceability
- issues, wouldn't you think? Otherwise why wouldn't
- they have used it?


That'd be my first guess, but I don't know anything about its history. Still...yikes.




---------------------------------

From a big bird in the sky,
All will jump and some will die.
Off to battle we will go,
To live or die, hell, I don't know.
Hail oh hail oh INFANTRY!
Queen of Battle, follow me!
An Airborne Ranger's life for me,
Oh, nothing in this world is free.

Cowace2
Commanding Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"

http://www.7jg77.com

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 10:51 PM
Please supply a resource about the !-185 so we can read about it. I've not heard of it.

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 10:57 PM
A Wooden plane! OMG, Only 88-flak could have made any damage on it on those days, (pierced through the engine harmlessly) and it would be able to pull 15G's as told in some other thread about RL abilities of russian wooden fighters.

Sorry, but I REALLY hope that this plane doesnt ever make itself into FB. I cannot imagine any more boring situation than fly in '41 server and see everybody flying I-185. Ok, a couple of Hurri mkIIc's would be there too...

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 11:00 PM
Luftwaffe guys are in trouble with that one for sure /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

P.S.
I dreamed about trying this I-185 ever since I got
"IL-2 Sturmovik".

----------------------------------------
My bomb says : Hitler Kaputt !
----------------------------------------

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 11:02 PM
Yeah well it turns out Russians had best planes in WWII/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 11:28 PM
Kannaksen_hanu wrote:
Sorry, but I REALLY hope that this plane doesnt ever
- make itself into FB. I cannot imagine any more
- boring situation than fly in '41 server and see
- everybody flying I-185. Ok, a couple of Hurri
- mkIIc's would be there too...



I'm pretty sure it'd be banned then...




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XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 11:33 PM
You're right. Indeed, there were problems with M-71. By the time they sorted them out, late La's and Yak's were already out in service.

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Message Edited on 06/04/0306:35PM by Voskhod5

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 11:34 PM
Voskhod5 wrote:
- I'm pretty sure it'd be banned then...


Right,we must have more crappy planes if we want to fly them./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


"degustibus non disputandum"

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adlabs6
06-04-2003, 11:37 PM
That model is looking great guys. The best of luck on the project!

Looks like a Rata?

I see more hints of the Mig-3 in the profile.

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XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 11:55 PM
he is giving the data for the so called I-185 "production standard", even though the thing never went beyong 3-4 prototypes...

How a 4.7 min climb to 5000m sound?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
The turn time is 22-22.5 s
Sea level speed 600km/h

3x20 mm guns with 500 between them


It was tested and compared to a Bf-109F:
- 47km/h faster at sea level
- 20km/h faster at 6000m

Ok, now...how a 1500m climb in a combat turn sounds like?

But, the Yaks were coming out in numbers, they were good, the guy had connections...
The M-71 was unreliable and troubled...so, NO GO for I-185.

In 1943, just before they closed this chapter...the M-71F engine got out, 2200HP and finaly the M-90 was also produced. The subsequent planes, I-187 and I-188 had nice perfomance, like a 710km/h speed at 6000m and a time to 5000m of 4.2 minutes.

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 11:57 PM
carguy_ wrote:
-
- Voskhod5 wrote:
-- I'm pretty sure it'd be banned then...
-
-
- Right,we must have more crappy planes if we want to
- fly them./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Unfortunately, the only chance for the I-185 to avoid getting banned from 41'-42' servers is to have a German plane of comparable performance on the other side.
Since there isn't any such german plane, the I-185 will surely get excluded from the planesets of the 'early' servers, sadly. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif



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XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 12:07 AM
It sounds like the I-185 would have been more likely to become operational in a 1945/46 timeperiod, rather than in 1941.

There were many supurlative aircraft during WWII that were years ahead of their time when concieved, and then took those years to develope.

If I recall correctly, the F4U Corsair was actually a design from the late thirties, that took until late 1943/1944 to become operational. If it hadn't had the teething problems to work through, they could very well have been operational, in numbers before Pearl Harbor.

Harry Voyager

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XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 12:18 AM
Remember Yakovlev ?
Yes! THAT Yakovlev!
Well...
During the war Yakovlev was a chairman of the aviation production commitee (NKAP). And he MADE SURE that there are no superior perspective designs which can make his rather mediochre early Yak fighters obsolete.
(BTW he tried to do the same thing to Lavochkin designs too)

It is interesting however, that after I-185 series were
cancelled (by Yakovlevs commission), Lavochkin came up with a La-5 project. The engine section, weapon mounting and some other systems were almost identical to those on I-185.
Although there is no evidence that Polikarpov gave his design projects to Lavochkin, it is clear that "coincidental similarities" between La-5 (La-5FN, La-7)
and I-185 aren't really "coincidental".

Well, when one thinks about it after so many years - it is sad really...
Talented, honest, innovative, extremely creative designers like Tupolev, Polikarpov, Lavochkin, Petlyakov and many many others were continuously treated with suspicion, often repressed by the corrupt stalinist totalitarian state.
But Yakovlev was not one of them. He wasnt' a very "bright"
designer but he was one of those whom we call now a "corporate businessman". Yes, his career was successful, but his "success" was achieved by so many unnecessary deaths of those young VVS pilots in early Yaks who had to fight against skilled german BF-109G2/6 and FW190 pilots.
I guess for Yakovlev it was "just business".

A "stalinist style" business. A bloody one...

P.S.
Stalin personally disliked Polikarpov. Mainly because Polikarpov was religious (his father was a priest) and always distancing himself from the brutal communist ideology.
The obvious basic principle was - if "comrade Stalin" doesn't like you, - it means that you just can not be ALLOWED to succeed. Never.

----------------------------------------
My bomb says : Hitler Kaputt !
----------------------------------------

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 12:20 AM
HarryVoyager wrote:
- It sounds like the I-185 would have been more likely
- to become operational in a 1945/46 timeperiod,
- rather than in 1941.
-
- There were many supurlative aircraft during WWII
- that were years ahead of their time when concieved,
- and then took those years to develope.
-
- If I recall correctly, the F4U Corsair was actually
- a design from the late thirties, that took until
- late 1943/1944 to become operational. If it hadn't
- had the teething problems to work through, they
- could very well have been operational, in numbers
- before Pearl Harbor.
-
- Harry Voyager


The only problems the I-185 had in 1941/42, were related to its 2000hp M-71 engine. And even those were, more or less sorted out by mid-to-late 43',AFAIK.
Still, the I-185's engine wasn't as raliable as the ASh-82FN, used on La's, which explaining the VVS choice in favor of the La's...

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XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 12:23 AM
Oh, and as Steirlitz stated- Yakovlev was the biggest problem of all.

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XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 01:05 AM
---Please supply a resource about the !-185 so we can read
---about it. I've not heard of it.


All new members of the militant radical FB camp need this book. Its a detailed survey of about 800 aircraft from 1917 to early 1980s. Huge page size and very *very* fine print.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/085045445X/inktomi-bkasin-20/002-3049102-4541624





Message Edited on 06/05/0312:05AM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 01:18 AM
Interesting plane but still a project, nothing more.
Everybody had plans for 2000hp radial engines by 1941, but all had to wait until '43 to mount them in realistic fighter designs.

I have nothing against it, if put in '44 plane set, considering that the engine was not really ready until a year before (and then abandoned).

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XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 01:41 AM
Looks like a MiG LaGG hybrid.



Message Edited on 06/04/0308:44PM by BuzzardHead

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 01:42 AM
Hmm looks a little like a He100 design http://www.luftarchiv.de/flugzeuge/heinkel/he100.htm

6 Prototypes were sold to russia around 1938.

From when this Prototype is ?

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 01:59 AM
Voskhod5 wrote:

- The only problems the I-185 had in 1941/42, were
- related to its 2000hp M-71 engine. And even those
- were, more or less sorted out by mid-to-late
- 43',AFAIK.
- Still, the I-185's engine wasn't as raliable as the
- ASh-82FN, used on La's, which explaining the VVS
- choice in favor of the La's...


There was also a version using M-82 engine, also as a prototype...so, this was not the reason.

The main reason...politics (and) Yakovlev...in 1941 after the project was put on hold, the drawings were sent to the other "bureaus"...so ...La-5 looks like a knock off, even MiG came with a Mig-9

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 01:59 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
"Interesting plane but still a project, nothing more."

Several were flown operationally ( just like the MiG-3U's) and have shown excellent flight characteristics.



"Everybody had plans for 2000hp radial engines by 1941,"



This one not only had plans for a 2000hp engine, it flew with one... in 1941!
And achieved a speed of 680km/h(6000m).



"but all had to wait until '43 to mount them in
realistic fighter designs."



So, what do you say, the I-185 was an unrealistic fighter design?


" I have nothing against it, if put in '44 plane set,
considering that the engine was not really ready until a year before (and then abandoned)."


Oh, not so fast! Since there's no way to realistically simulate engine failures from mechanical problems(not from overheating, mind you) in IL-2FB (and I bet there were engine failures in WWII, even on the planes with reliable engines) it would have to be included as a 41' or, in the worst case, a 42' plane. In either case it would OWN Luftwaffe.
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif






<center>[BlitzPig_Voskhod]<center>
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http://airbase.uka.ru/hangar/planes/pix/su27vsf15.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 02:01 AM
BuzzardHead wrote:
- Looks like a MiG LaGG hybrid.
-
-
-
- Message Edited on 06/04/03 08:44PM by
- BuzzardHead

Nope, the ones you mentioned look like the I-180/I-185

You should see the IPT (M) aircraft, also from Polikarpov.

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 02:03 AM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
----Please supply a resource about the !-185 so we can read about it. I've not heard of it.


Soviet Combat aircraft from WW II, (fighters and bombers, 2 volumes...)

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 02:31 AM
Voskhod5 wrote:
- This one not only had plans for a 2000hp engine, it
- flew with one... in 1941!
- And achieved a speed of 680km/h(6000m).
-
-
-
- "but all had to wait until '43 to mount them in
- realistic fighter designs."
-
-
-
-
- So, what do you say, the I-185 was an unrealistic
- fighter design?
-
-
-
- " I have nothing against it, if put in '44 plane
- set,
- considering that the engine was not really ready
- until a year before (and then abandoned)."
-
-


It was unrealistic for an operational fighter. And it has nothing to do with political decisions. Yakovlev himself fell in disgrace after the end of the war, before Stalin's death.
Simply by '43 when the engine was ready there were already better fighters, like La5FN which had much better airframe.


- Oh, not so fast! Since there's no way to
- realistically simulate engine failures from
- mechanical problems(not from overheating, mind you)
- in IL-2FB (and I bet there were engine failures in
- WWII, even on the planes with reliable engines) it
- would have to be included as a 41' or, in the worst
- case, a 42' plane. In either case it would OWN
- Luftwaffe.

Should we get He-280 and Me-262 by '41 because the prototypes flew already, is this what you imply?

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XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 02:59 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- It was unrealistic for an operational fighter. And
- it has nothing to do with political decisions.
- Yakovlev himself fell in disgrace after the end of
- the war, before Stalin's death.
- Simply by '43 when the engine was ready there were
- already better fighters, like La5FN which had much
- better airframe.



It was realistic for an operational fighter, and its demise had nothing to do with politics.

From the final test report issued by the NII VVS:
"The I-185 M-71 fighter armed with three ShVAK synchronised machine guns could be introduced into the inventory. The I-185 M-82 was bettered only by the I-185 M-71 fighter, surpassing all other production aircraft, both indigenous and foreign."

According to the NII VVS, the I-85, particularly the I-85 M-71, could outperform the Yak-7B, LaGG-3, MiG-3, P-39, Sptifire, and Bf-109F. It outperformed all except the He-100 which was a little better in level speed and climb.

The Bf-109F, according to the NII VVS was 29mph slower than the I-185 at sea level, and 12.4mph slower at 19,700 feet.

In November 1942, all the prototypes of the I-185 underwent service trials with the 728th Fighter Air Regiment and were highly regarded.

Commander Capt. Vasilyaka noted: "The I-185 outclasses both Soviet and foreign aircraft in level speed. It performs aerobatic manuevers easily, rapidly and vigorously. The I-185 is the best up-to-date fighter from the view of control simplicity, speed, manueverability (especially climb), armament and survivability."

Major General P Losyukov noted: "The I-185 M-71 is the best up-to-date fighter. It surpasses in maximum speed, climb rate, and vertical manueverability both the Soviet and latest foreign production fighters (Bf-109 and Fw-190). The fighter must be introduced into inventory."

The delay in production of the fighter was due to its unrelaible engine, which usually failed in about 24 hours. Anyway, the M-82 engine was needed for the La-5.

"It should be noted that, technologically, the I-185 was very sound. Its structure was well designed, and its components could be produced at different plants for subsequent asembly at the production plant."

Source for quotes: "Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War" Volume one, Single Engined Fighters.

================================================== ======


Now, was the plane really that good, or was this so much Communist hyperbole? Who knows. I find it difficult to believe it was better than every other plane tested in every aspect.




Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp2.jpg



Message Edited on 06/05/0306:15AM by SkyChimp

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 03:03 AM
cowace2 wrote:
- In other news, WHY ON EARTH WAS THE VVS NOT USING
- THIS ENGINE???
-
- It sounds comparable to the R-2800, which was easily
- the best overall engine to be fielded during the
- war. Why would they not press this engine into
- service?

Because, unlike the R-2800, it was unreliable until very late.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 03:03 AM
Specs:

Type I-185R He 100 D
Function fighter fighter
Year 1941 1939
Crew 1 1
Engines 1*2000hp Shvetsov M-71 DB 601M
1175 PS
(1157 HP)
Wing Span 9.80m 9,42 m
Length 8.05m 8,19 m
Height 2.50m 3,60 m
Wing Area 15.53m2
Empty Weight 3105kg
Maximum Weight 3750kg
Speed 680km/h 670 km/h
Ceiling 11000m 9890 m
Range 950km 1005 km
Armament
Guns 3*g20mm 1 x MG FF
Bombs 400kg 2 x MG 17

(Hope thats the right calculation)
Calaculation used PS to / in Horse Power [HP] = PS * 0,985 = HP.

Look at the design and performance Data looks very similar not sure how it would perform with more hp engine. But i doubt that the i-185r is so heavy with the 3 x 20 mm and the engine that a 2000 PS engine has only that small diff in top speed. Maybe someone can add the weight values for the he100d and other missing data.

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 03:23 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
-
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-
-- It was unrealistic for an operational fighter. And
-- it has nothing to do with political decisions.
-- Yakovlev himself fell in disgrace after the end of
-- the war, before Stalin's death.
-- Simply by '43 when the engine was ready there were
-- already better fighters, like La5FN which had much
-- better airframe.
-
-
-
-
- It was realistic for an operational fighter, and its
- demise had nothing to do with politics.


It was not realistic in '41. Engine was unrealible resulting in fatal accidents in testing. By the time engine was ready the airframe was obsolete.
Are you pleading for He-100 to be introduced in '39 plane set and He-280 in '41? He-100D-1 was production serie (even if it did not see mass production) and He-280 was considered ready to enter in production.

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Message Edited on 06/04/0309:26PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 05:09 AM
she will be WAY cool to have in FB ...


but sadly the best fighters of WW2 all had the word " Spitfire " in front of there names ::P

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 06:51 AM
Voskhod5 wrote:


-
- Oh, not so fast! Since there's no way to
- realistically simulate engine failures from
- mechanical problems(not from overheating, mind you)
- in IL-2FB (and I bet there were engine failures in
- WWII, even on the planes with reliable engines) it
- would have to be included as a 41' or, in the worst
- case, a 42' plane. In either case it would OWN
- Luftwaffe.


Using this thinking, isnt the me262 a 1941 plane too? V1 made first test flight April of 1941/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif FW190 would be a 1938 model and I believe the prototype for the Dora (V17)flew in 1941.

--lbhkilla--

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/FW190.jpg .

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"We could do with some of those razor blades, Herr Reichsmarshall."
When Erwin Rommel that British fighter-bombers had shot up my tanks with 40mm shells, the Hermann G¶ring who felt himself touched by this, said: "That's completely impossible. The Americans only know how to make razor blades." and the above was Rommels reply.

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 07:55 AM
IIRC there was a Me109 variant (prototype) long before WWII begin capable of 755 km/h (welt record), so please don't begin the "protoptype&experimental plane" war!
In this war certainly the LW would win....

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 12:23 PM
FireBird77 wrote:
- IIRC there was a Me109 variant (prototype) long
- before WWII begin capable of 755 km/h (welt record),
- so please don't begin the "protoptype&experimental
- plane" war!
- In this war certainly the LW would win....
-
-

FireBird, the record plane was a one off special made solely for speed trials. The I 185 was capable of combat.


And if you want to go that way, the P80 design was started before the war as well.....

but, lets not go there.



<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"Courage is the price that Life exacts for granting peace."

--Amelia Earhart--

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 12:53 PM
M-71 was used on the La5/La7, but resulting in overheating and such stuff, the engine was still not ready.

about Polikarpov, well, the best pilot in USSR Valeri Chkalov lost his life while testing the I-180. he was not just a fine pilot, he was almost a God for the russian youth... also, Yakovlev must have had some influence. he was always very close to Stalin. I keep asking myself, why did they created 3 new construction bureaus for fighter planes?

cowace2 wrote:
- In other news, WHY ON EARTH WAS THE VVS NOT USING
- THIS ENGINE???
-



"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close you eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)


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1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 01:01 PM
Another one for the banlist. It's made of russian wood -> it will be indestructable.

<img src=http://sivusto.servepics.com/cappa.gif>

"God kills a kitten everytime I switch off the cockpit." - Visigoth 6

"my ego is so far advanced that it just doesn't care." - RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 05:17 PM
Brief article about I-185 (in russian):
http://mk-magazine.narod.ru/avia/i_185.htm

For the detailed info on I-185, developement history and
in-depth technical analysis - I highly recommend this:
"I-180, I-185 - Polikarpov's last fighters" by Yuriy Guglya.

ž?¨é ƒ³¿; ˆ-180, ˆ-185 - ¯¥¤*¨¥ ¨²?¥á¨²¥¨ ¨ª ?¯â


P.S.
The problem with that plane was its engine - a Shvetsov M-71. Although this new engine had a good perspective - it's reliability was not satisfactory in 1941.
Therefore, during the seeptember of 1941, two I-185 variants were sent to NII VVS for pre-production evaluation
(pre-serial production on factory no.51)

One with a M-71 and another with a M-82A as an alternative.
I-185 with a M-82A engine was approximately 15km/h slower, but it didn't have engine reliability problems which plagued
an M-71 equipped version.

A quote from NII VVS evaluation report signed by a leading NII VVS engineer Lazarev:

"I-185 M-71, armed with 3 synchronised ShVAK-20, meets VVS modern fighter requirements and can be recommended for serial production. I-185 M-82A is excelled only by I-185
M-71, and still significantly superior to any other soviet or foreign fighter currently in serial production.
I-185 M-82A and I-185 M-71 require an equal piloting control technique. Flight controls are easy and acceptable for averagely skilled pilots."





----------------------------------------
My bomb says : Hitler Kaputt !
----------------------------------------

Message Edited on 06/05/0304:18PM by FPS_Stierlitz

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 06:50 PM
- Several were flown operationally ( just like the MiG-
- 3U's) and have shown excellent flight characteristics.

First there were three prototypes, then they tried to commence production of the "Standard" or production type. One machine was built and tested. It failed the test, because of it's engine failures during tests from December 17, 1942 - January 26, 1943.

An attempt was made to replace the engine with a new one, but this engine failed within the first 24 hours of running time.

On January 27, 1943 the fighter crashed due to more engine failures etc etc. The list of engine failures goes on and on and yes, there was also a crash in which sadly Mr. V. Stepanchyonok died.

So we are talking about trying to producing *one* production specimen, in which they did not succeed, because of ongoing insolvable engine problems.

"It was later decided to stop production of the I-185 because of it's unreliable engine and the lack of production capacity." - from "Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War" by Yefim Gordon and Dmitri Khazanov.

So, why would you want this fighter that was never produced in any series in FB? To get an edge over all other (LW) fighters, and preferably from 1941 on, even?

Sounds like a good reason to me, but not very realistic at all, or is it? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
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XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 07:22 PM
sobolan wrote:
-
- Voskhod5 wrote:
-
-- -
- The main reason...politics (and) Yakovlev...in 1941
- after the project was put on hold, the drawings were
- sent to the other "bureaus"...so ...La-5 looks like
- a knock off, even MiG came with a Mig-9
-
There was a Mig-5 with 1.600hp Ash-82A radial engine
some few were used operationally.




WIRLIE WHINERS
first of the few

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 10:11 PM
Airborn_ wrote:

"So, why would you want this fighter that was never
produced in any series in FB? To get an edge over
all other (LW) fighters, and preferably from 1941
on, even?

Sounds like a good reason to me, but not very
realistic at all, or is it? "



I would want I-185 for the same reasons I would want MiG3U- it existed, it was flown in combat by soviet pilots and one of it's versions had a reliable engine installed(M-82) and was only slightly slower. I guess my main reason is: if it fought in actual combat over Russia, it should be in FB.
If only to experience what it felt like for a few russian pilots to have a total air superiority in the early years of WWII. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



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http://airbase.uka.ru/hangar/planes/pix/su27vsf15.jpg



Message Edited on 06/05/0306:54PM by Voskhod5

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 10:24 PM
Will be a lovely airplane to fly! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


http://mk-magazine.narod.ru/avia/i_185_6.jpg



http://mk-magazine.narod.ru/avia/i_185_7.jpg



http://mk-magazine.narod.ru/avia/i_185_8.jpg



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http://airbase.uka.ru/hangar/planes/pix/su27vsf15.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 11:20 PM
Airborn_ wrote:
- First there were three prototypes, then they tried
- to commence production of the "Standard" or
- production type. One machine was built and tested.
- It failed the test, because of it's engine failures
- during tests from December 17, 1942 - January 26,
- 1943.


These planes belong to a second pre-production series.
The first plane from this pre-production batch flew on June 10th 1942.


- So we are talking about trying to producing *one*
- production specimen, in which they did not succeed,
- because of ongoing insolvable engine problems.

Five I-185 from the first 1941 pre-production batch
started their service in 728 IAP from November 1942.
Only M-82A types were used "to the full". M-71 types had their engine power output lowered to prevent engine damage.
It resulted in actual performance of M-71 and M-82A versions.

- "It was later decided to stop production of the
- I-185 because of it's unreliable engine and the lack
- of production capacity." - from "Soviet Combat
- Aircraft of the Second World War" by Yefim Gordon
- and Dmitri Khazanov.

That was a "official" NKAP explanation.
Massive serial production in large numbers was ready to start on 5 (five !!!) factories even towards the end of 1941. Production could start with M-82 engine, followed after only few months with a M-82A and finally switching to
M-71 when its flawes are corrected.

The factory in Perm' (Permskiy motorostroitelniy zavod - PMZ) which was producing air-cooled engines and which was supposed to
start the serial production of M-82 engines is waiting for orders from Moscow.

But what happened instead ?

Yakovlev (NKAP chief) issues an order to stop the
M-82 program and to convert production lines of the PMZ factory to produce liquid-cooled engines !

And that's when the new M-82 was already tested in NII VVS and was found reliable, powerful and also had a good technological perspective for further modification !

Shvetsov (M-82 engine designer) and Gusarov (a Perm' authority chief) took great risks and stubbornly refused to
follow this order from Yakovlev and NKAP. Of course this could not be kept secret for too long. The situation was soon reported to Stalin and in the beginning of May 1941 -
both Shvetsov and Gusarov had a "hard talk" with Stalin.
Apparently, Shvetsov and Gusarov were able to present good reasons and arguments. Stalin was convinced !
Within a few days, M-82 received all the necessary certification and on May 17 1941, M-82 engine was ordered
for serial production.
Precious time was lost however. Serial production of M-82 engines could start half a year earlier.

Now lets think how the absence of M-82 engine could affect
soviet aviation ?

No La-5, no La-7, no Tu-2...

- So, why would you want this fighter that was never
- produced in any series in FB?

Hmm...
Why not ? We have even an exotic Bi-1 and almost
non-existant MiG-3U.
We all know that experimental german planes (Horten for example) are going to be added when their models are ready.
Don't see any problem with I-185.
Finally, how about that "don't like it - don't fly it" rule?
And if you don't want to see this plane online - simply ban it from the server. Very simple.


P.S.

However, it must be noted I-185 really belongs to 1942 and not 1941.


----------------------------------------
My bomb says : Hitler Kaputt !
----------------------------------------

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 11:26 PM
it looks mean!

---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 12:28 AM
- Hmm...
- Why not ? We have even an exotic Bi-1 and almost
- non-existant MiG-3U.
- We all know that experimental german planes (Horten for
- example) are going to be added when their models are
- ready. Don't see any problem with I-185.
- Finally, how about that "don't like it - don't fly it"
- rule?
- And if you don't want to see this plane online - simply
- ban it from the server. Very simple.

Yes, I also don't see anything against modelling it... now that many more 'borderline' planes already have been modelled, or are going to be. I don't think it will be very welcome on '41 or '42 servers though, hence my reaction to Voshkods desire to have it "own" everything on '41/'42 servers.

I'll even tell you a secret: I think it's by far the hottest looking VVS bird I have set my eyes on so far. I especially like the artist's impression of the M-71 driven I-185 (I suspect no actual photograph of this particular version survived, otherwise Gordon and Khazanov would have found it, I'm sure) with it's immensely bulky engine cowlings and spinner. It would be nothing short of spectacular, if this one would be modelled some fine day. But meanwhile I will easily settle for the M-82 version.
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XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 12:52 AM
Hi

I will be very surprised if a accurate cockpit can be done for it.

No cockpit, no fly version.

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 01:14 AM
I think a guy who tested the plane crashed and died.

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 01:16 AM
Well, I'd fly it.

That's part of what I like about this sim. These are difficult planes to master. It took me forever to master the LaGG-5 in campaign, but when I did I could kick butt with it. I learned how to avoid getting beat up by the LW and survive.

I notice that many pilots out there like the Brewster Buffalo. What an outmoded fighter! Why would anyone want to fly that when you have P-47's, Uber LW BF's and 190's?

Cuz Americans love the underdog.

That's why I fly VVS.

Bring on those tough to fly planes.


*****Only left handed people are in their right minds.*****

<center>http://www.ghosts.com/images/FIATG.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 01:35 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- It was not realistic in '41. Engine was unrealible
- resulting in fatal accidents in testing.

Agreed



- By the time
- engine was ready the airframe was obsolete.

Agreed again.



- Are you pleading for He-100 to be introduced in '39
- plane set and He-280 in '41? He-100D-1 was
- production serie (even if it did not see mass
- production) and He-280 was considered ready to enter
- in production.

No, actually I agree here too. My point was that it could have been a viable fighter at some time, clearly 1943 was not too early.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 04:31 AM
cowace2 wrote:
- Are you serious?
-
- 680 km/h in 1941? The FASTEST American fighter in
- 1941 was hard pressed to reach 500 km/h. This plane
- would probably outclimb and outaccelerate anything
- in the sky until at least the late model 109s, Yaks,
- and La's got on the scene.
-

Oh, I just remembered, the Razorback P-47 has a top speed of 433mph at 30,000ft, or 692kmh at 9,100m. Accordingto the object viewer, the first order for the 'D' model Thunderbolts was placed in 1941. The first oder for the P-47B version was placed in September 1940, though the aircraft first flew on May 6, 1941, and had a top speed of 412mph (659).

In fact, apparently the RAF was schedualed to test the P-47 in combat in late 41/early 42, but due to various bugs (including, but not limited to, the tail falling off, control surfaces shreading, ignition harness failures, etc. etc.), it was suggested to them that it was inadvisable at that time.

However, it does seem that the P-47C was operational by the end of 1942. It might be a very nice plane to have in 1942...

Harry Voyager

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XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 04:33 AM
Airborn_ wrote:
.

"Yes, I also don't see anything against modelling
it... now that many more 'borderline' planes already
have been modelled, or are going to be. I don't
think it will be very welcome on '41 or '42 servers
though, hence my reaction to Voshkods desire to have
it "own" everything on '41/'42 servers."


Ah, don't worry! I wasn't really serious about the "ownage" part.
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I was just teasing our esteemed LW flyers.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that the I-185 would be banned on most early war servers as soon as it's released.





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XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 04:39 AM
I'm confused. In everything I've read, the i16 was the mainstay of the Soviet fighter force until 1943 when the Mig started to arrive in adequate numbers. All these super Soviet planes we hear about receive little or no attention from history. Why?

***I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. That, or Duder. His Dudeness. Or El Duderino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing***

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 04:43 AM
The__Dude wrote:
- I'm confused. In everything I've read, the i16 was
- the mainstay of the Soviet fighter force until 1943
- when the Mig started to arrive in adequate numbers.
- All these super Soviet planes we hear about receive
- little or no attention from history. Why?



Because Soviet leaders were dumb... and gay! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 03:31 PM
HarryVoyager wrote:
-
- cowace2 wrote:
-- Are you serious?
--
-- 680 km/h in 1941? The FASTEST American fighter in
-- 1941 was hard pressed to reach 500 km/h. This plane
-- would probably outclimb and outaccelerate anything
-- in the sky until at least the late model 109s, Yaks,
-- and La's got on the scene.
--
-
- Oh, I just remembered, the Razorback P-47 has a top
- speed of 433mph at 30,000ft, or 692kmh at 9,100m.
- Accordingto the object viewer, the first order for
- the 'D' model Thunderbolts was placed in 1941. The
- first oder for the P-47B version was placed in
- September 1940, though the aircraft first flew on
- May 6, 1941, and had a top speed of 412mph (659).
-
- In fact, apparently the RAF was schedualed to test
- the P-47 in combat in late 41/early 42, but due to
- various bugs (including, but not limited to, the
- tail falling off, control surfaces shreading,
- ignition harness failures, etc. etc.), it was
- suggested to them that it was inadvisable at that
- time.
-
- However, it does seem that the P-47C was operational
- by the end of 1942. It might be a very nice plane
- to have in 1942...
-
171 P-47Bs flew in 42 with the 56th Fighter Group
that at this time belonged to the US army airforce

WIRLIE WHINERS
first of the few

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 04:06 PM
Reminds me of I-16 tail + MiG center + La-7 front... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 04:38 PM
The F4U first flew in May 1940. In July 1942, the USN was recieving a/c from the production line.


fjuff79 wrote:

-
- 171 P-47Bs flew in 42 with the 56th Fighter Group
- that at this time belonged to the US army airforce
-
-

"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

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XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 05:13 PM
Ok, a few points:

Primary cause of the I 185's non production was the assorted engine problems- first the M90, then the M81, the M82, and M71. Interestingly enough, Polikarpov was instructed to send the blueprints of the M82 mounting cannons to the OKB's of Lavochkin, Mikoyan, and Yakoklev. The performance of the M71 engine was far better- so it was chosen for production- Bad move....

Development was interrupted by the evacuation of Zavod 51 (Polikarpov facility) to Novosibirsk- this no doubt factored in the problems.

Politics no doubt played a role- Polikarpov was Stalins "King of the Fighters" until Chkalovs death flying the I 180. Several of Polikarpovs designers were sent to the Gulag for that- only thing that spared Polikarpov was the fact that he had not signed off on the flight. However Stalin certainly remembered it- and no doubt Yakoklev (and possibly Mikoyans brother) had influence over the decision. I find it interesting that none of the Polikarpov designs after 1938 were adopted despite some apparent advantages- the I 185 and the ITP being the obvious ones that come to mind

Finally, the fact that Polikarpov was dying of cancer in 1943 may play a part in it as well

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XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 10:04 PM
Looks like somebody else is modeling that plane.

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:28 AM
cowace2 wrote:
- In other news, WHY ON EARTH WAS THE VVS NOT USING
- THIS ENGINE???
-
- It sounds comparable to the R-2800, which was easily
- the best overall engine to be fielded during the
- war. Why would they not press this engine into
- service?
-
-
-
Because it was never more than a concept. Soviets may have built good airframes, but never could shake the engine lag behind. This thing never saw no 2000 hp engine, close to 3/4 of that may be on a good day or two.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:33 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
-
- It was realistic for an operational fighter, and its
- demise had nothing to do with politics.
-
- From the final test report issued by the NII VVS:
- "The I-185 M-71 fighter armed with three ShVAK
- synchronised machine guns could be introduced into
- the inventory. The I-185 M-82 was bettered only by
- the I-185 M-71 fighter, surpassing all other
- production aircraft, both indigenous and foreign."
-
- According to the NII VVS, the I-85, particularly the
- I-85 M-71, could outperform the Yak-7B, LaGG-3,
- MiG-3, P-39, Sptifire, and Bf-109F. It outperformed
- all except the He-100 which was a little better in
- level speed and climb.
-
- The Bf-109F, according to the NII VVS was 29mph
- slower than the I-185 at sea level, and 12.4mph
- slower at 19,700 feet.
-
- In November 1942, all the prototypes of the I-185
- underwent service trials with the 728th Fighter Air
- Regiment and were highly regarded.
-
- Commander Capt. Vasilyaka noted: "The I-185
- outclasses both Soviet and foreign aircraft in level
- speed. It performs aerobatic manuevers easily,
- rapidly and vigorously. The I-185 is the best
- up-to-date fighter from the view of control
- simplicity, speed, manueverability (especially
- climb), armament and survivability."
-
- Major General P Losyukov noted: "The I-185 M-71 is
- the best up-to-date fighter. It surpasses in
- maximum speed, climb rate, and vertical
- manueverability both the Soviet and latest foreign
- production fighters (Bf-109 and Fw-190). The
- fighter must be introduced into inventory."
-
- The delay in production of the fighter was due to
- its unrelaible engine, which usually failed in about
- 24 hours. Anyway, the M-82 engine was needed for
- the La-5.
-
- "It should be noted that, technologically, the I-185
- was very sound. Its structure was well designed,
- and its components could be produced at different
- plants for subsequent asembly at the production
- plant."
-
- Source for quotes: "Soviet Combat Aircraft of the
- Second World War" Volume one, Single Engined
- Fighters.
-
- ==================================================
- ======
-
-
- Now, was the plane really that good, or was this so
- much Communist hyperbole? Who knows. I find it
- difficult to believe it was better than every other
- plane tested in every aspect.
-
-
-
-
-
- Regards,
-
- SkyChimp


It's pretty easy to drag up the exact same comments on darn near every soviet prototype introduced.

Yawn...........

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:46 AM
BBB_Hyperion wrote:
- Engines 1*2000hp Shvetsov M-71 DB
- Empty Weight 3105kg
- Maximum Weight 3750kg

-range 1005 km

With huge Hp engine as empty weight 3105kg then max weight 3750kg...ummmm 645kg weight different also fly 1005 Km....ummmm...how many lite of fuel can it carry? how many ammo for 3 20mm cannons? Monster engine...fuel guzzler or not?


Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:52 AM
funny a 3 side thread about a warm breath of air and an a/c that never saw production./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif 5 prototyps were launched but "only" 4 of them were completed. Maybe assembled in a back yard garage./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:57 AM
No Text

Message Edited on 11/07/0311:58PM by robban75

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:59 AM
Kannaksen_hanu wrote:
- Sorry, but I REALLY hope that this plane doesnt ever
- make itself into FB. I cannot imagine any more
- boring situation than fly in '41 server and see
- everybody flying I-185. Ok, a couple of Hurri
- mkIIc's would be there too...

That's how we feel if we fly with our early war crap planes against the FW190's.
Many times have I been on early war servers with Blue team all flying early war FW190's and there is no plane on the Red side that can even remotely match it's top speed.

[Sarcasm on] Great fun. [Sarcasm off]

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 01:17 AM
I don't want extra who looks better than heroes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


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Message Edited on 11/08/0309:18AM by TooCooL34

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 01:56 AM
Great! Throw the He-100 and Fw-187 in and we can have some good fantasy fun!

--AKD

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:44 AM
WereSnowleopard wrote:
-
- BBB_Hyperion wrote:
-- Engines 1*2000hp Shvetsov M-71 DB
-- Empty Weight 3105kg
-- Maximum Weight 3750kg
-
-
--range 1005 km
-
- With huge Hp engine as empty weight 3105kg then
- max weight 3750kg...ummmm 645kg weight different
- also fly 1005 Km....ummmm...how many lite of fuel
- can it carry? how many ammo for 3 20mm cannons?
- Monster engine...fuel guzzler or not?
-
-
-
-
- Regards
- SnowLeopard
-

Stalin saw a technical report for a British recon spitfire, he wasn't a technical guy, so got some silly notion that range had to be matched to keep technical parity. All the concerned agencies were instructed to meet the range spec by Stalin, only Lavachka had the guts to say no. Popy was in no position to say anything but had to comply. Yak introduced the D series wing in a jiffy. Nothing like working with several loaded guns pointed at you.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 09:41 AM
Yea, I185 actually flew in 41 and also Me262 flew in 42. Does it mean that they should be on 41/42 servers?

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 03:45 PM
How many were built and used in combat? The game really doesn't need another MiG-3U-type plane. Let's get those planes that were actually used in some substantial numbers, such as the I-15 or the Hs-123.

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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:20 PM
i want.. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:31 PM
great, another prototype plane.. like its not hard enough for us OKL-flyers allready.. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

ANyway, nice to see new planes coming..

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