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View Full Version : P-40 hits harder then the P-47!!!



XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 07:04 AM
ITS TRUE! I swear to you. I was playing with the QMB. I set up a nice dogfight. 4 Ju-52's, 4 BF-110G4's, 2 109G6's against 4 P-47's and 4 Mug UD's. The Me-109's were gone on the first pass. I got behind a 110, and filled him with lead. all 8 guns (both primary and secondary) and it took quite a bit! I polished off the 110's and went after the Ju's. I went high, dove low, and got 1 braudside. A little smoke for a hard hit. Went high, came down and behind. I held on both primary and secondary for 2 sedonds on his engine at 200M (I had 300M convergance). Finally a little fire and it veered off. Went onto the 2nd Ju. Same thing. About 4 seconds of fire from 100-200 meters, off comes his wing. The others went the same way. Im talking ACCURATE shots with ALL 8 GUNS into his engine. Last I filled the hull. UGH! I hated the P-47 because it kept stalling. So I took the P-40 field mod. First run and 1/2 second birst down a 110. Next 110 goes down faster. 109's the AI took out. So I go after the Ju's. First dive, I took a ranging shot on his engine. Engine on fore and it went down!!!!! 2nd Ju, wing fell off after 1 second birst. 3rd Ju EXPLODED!!!! The 6x .50 cals on the P-40 were taking everything down so much faster then the P-47!

#1, I know you need to fire both primary and secondary for the P-47. DUH!

#2, the convergance was the same. P-40 kills were way off of convergance, were the P-47 was in.

Try it out guys!!!

My thoughts....

On the P-39 there are two differant guns. The nose guns do half dmg due to it being synced with the prop, but the wing guns are full. I am THINKING Oleg and team gave the P-47 all half power guns!!!

Whats your thoughts.

Gib

"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 07:04 AM
ITS TRUE! I swear to you. I was playing with the QMB. I set up a nice dogfight. 4 Ju-52's, 4 BF-110G4's, 2 109G6's against 4 P-47's and 4 Mug UD's. The Me-109's were gone on the first pass. I got behind a 110, and filled him with lead. all 8 guns (both primary and secondary) and it took quite a bit! I polished off the 110's and went after the Ju's. I went high, dove low, and got 1 braudside. A little smoke for a hard hit. Went high, came down and behind. I held on both primary and secondary for 2 sedonds on his engine at 200M (I had 300M convergance). Finally a little fire and it veered off. Went onto the 2nd Ju. Same thing. About 4 seconds of fire from 100-200 meters, off comes his wing. The others went the same way. Im talking ACCURATE shots with ALL 8 GUNS into his engine. Last I filled the hull. UGH! I hated the P-47 because it kept stalling. So I took the P-40 field mod. First run and 1/2 second birst down a 110. Next 110 goes down faster. 109's the AI took out. So I go after the Ju's. First dive, I took a ranging shot on his engine. Engine on fore and it went down!!!!! 2nd Ju, wing fell off after 1 second birst. 3rd Ju EXPLODED!!!! The 6x .50 cals on the P-40 were taking everything down so much faster then the P-47!

#1, I know you need to fire both primary and secondary for the P-47. DUH!

#2, the convergance was the same. P-40 kills were way off of convergance, were the P-47 was in.

Try it out guys!!!

My thoughts....

On the P-39 there are two differant guns. The nose guns do half dmg due to it being synced with the prop, but the wing guns are full. I am THINKING Oleg and team gave the P-47 all half power guns!!!

Whats your thoughts.

Gib

"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 07:12 AM
You know, I have noticed that the P-40 seems to pack a suprising amount of punch. Maybe he did mess up the P-47's armament.

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 07:17 AM
well the A4 seems to have moer punch than either of em http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 07:24 AM
On a related topic, the MG-151 on the 109F4 does more damage than the MG-151 on the 190D9. I deduced this after a few rounds in the QMB, and protest vehemently that my beloved Dora is undermodelled.

Of course, after actually checking the number of hits I got, I realized that there is no difference. I also realized that my results could vary wildy depending on range of firing, location and concentration of hits, and that everything from gun placement, airframe stability and gun shake can dramatically affect the percieved effectiveness of the weapons.

You'd also wonder why the dev team would take the time to model the gun specs differently for every plane, rather than just copy/paste the specs for identical guns. Not to mention speculating on a reason for having a particular weapon modelled differently for different planes.

But hey, maybe you're right. I've always thought my left mouse button was bigger than the right one, and although I've never bothered to measure them, it might just be true.

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Message Edited on 06/27/0312:30AM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 07:30 AM
I actually noticed the exact same thing recently. The P-40s guns are definitely more powerful than the P-47s. I was testing the P-40 a few days ago and I had the exact same observation.

Anyone, take a P-40 up against a pair of 109s or 110s and you'll agree.




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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 07:30 AM
Well lets see what the patch brings.I hope this stuff Gets sorted in the 4 months its been worked on.

Zayets
06-27-2003, 07:33 AM
This worths try! I never bothered to compare the 'Hawk with the Jug coz I said there's no way for the 'Hawk to match the jug just because it has 8(EIGHT!!!) 0.50cals. But now you made me really curious. If this is the case , i hope this will be fixed in the patch. And please Oleg , the sound of 0.50 is o lame , look even at CFS2 , or better said , listen. I hate the sound of the firing guns in the Jug and 'Hawk , also the Cobra has a not such a pleasant sound , whatever it comes , make it better please...

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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 07:46 AM
I noticed it too in jambock n 401s server when they use to fly jugs alot with the jambocks in a head on bnz pass me being lower alt and them diving in on me and it seemed i would kill thier engine and pilot before they shot down the p40 with the 8 50s a bunch of times, but they did damage me alot and the jambocks and 401 have some extremely good sharp shooters, you can blow up a 190s and 109s fuel tank up in a 1 second burst with the p40 the jug takes a couple seconds to explode a 190 when trying to get defelction shots on the belly behind the pilot

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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 08:46 AM
gibbage i thought you knew that already. ive been saying as well as others that the jugs guns are PORKED. and the p40 DOES have better guns...oleg gives preferential status to planes that he likes and the opposite to planes he dislikes. oleg knows the jug was always king in every flight sim so he decided to change that. he decided he likes the p40 alot. as well as hurricane. i guarantee if he made a spitfire it would be a lot worse than the hurricane. he doesnt want to be like everybody else. he obviously deliberately messed up roll rate ....guns power and energy retention of jug. now others will post here the jug has great guns etc. because it saws off wings yadda yadda. well it wont do that every time and its guns are worse than a p40 so there it is.i fire the jug at convergence range all 8 not just 4 and i swear all other planes are better at downing enemies than the jug. the 109e series the migs the yak3 ...all have better guns than the jug....and the jugs guns are modelled correct??? YEA RIGHT. i am good to very good in all the planes in game Except the jug. it can only make on dive and run away. if it makes a second dive without climbing up 3000 meters again its a sitting duck. it stalls at high speed in turns in cant turn at all basically. even at high speed....the jug flys like a brick even at 700 k....very unrealistic.

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 09:05 AM
I fly the p40 often (mostly badly but/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) and dont think the guns are that good not even close to a single 20mm cannon.As for the p47 I cant say i almost never fly it.

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Cpt.LoneRanger
06-27-2003, 09:22 AM
Th Cal.50MGs have a great effect on any target.

However, the P47 has a definately MORE firepower than the P40.

You just have to move a lot closer with the P47, since it sprays it's cloud of lead a lot wider than the P40 does. (You can see this much better on ground attacks!)

So, it's very difficult to compare both planes. Indeed I tried several testings on a flight of 4 TB3s and when I got the distance and aimpoint right, I did a lot more damage with the P47.

Nevertheless, I hope the problem with the flightmodels is fixed soon, on both aircrafts....


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 09:23 AM
I noticed this almost as soon as FB was released, it is pretty obvious. I don't mean to sound arrogant, I'm just saying I agree and have for a long time. I do more testing of weapons and damage modelling than anything else by far, its like a sickness. I'll sit there for hours trying one type of gun against every type of plane. Like I said, sick. The.50's also seem devastating against ground targets as well for some reason but underpowered in the air. But again, take a P-40/P-47 and you will tear Macchi-202's apart. Now fly La-5 or Yak-1B against Macchi-202's and you will get frustrated very quickly. Same against Yak's, mg's do decent damage, cannons hardly anything. So I don't think it is the guns, it is the damage models of the planes that are off. Still the P-47 damage potential seems neutered regardless. I have confidence that the patch will change all of this so in a few weeks or so hopefully this will all be meaningless.

Cheers

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Message Edited on 06/27/0308:40AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 11:00 AM
i think the p40 mgs are more concentrated, or the bullets are less dispersed. In QMB vs veterans IL-2 I, I was able to shoot down 7 of them in p40

-------------

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Cpt.LoneRanger
06-27-2003, 11:35 AM
Yes, jurinko, that is more the point, I think.

I do a lot of testing, too, especially between different armaments.


It's right, that the damage modell has some flaws. In a campaign-mission, I followed an I16, that tried to escape. All I had left in my 109G2 was my MGs, but almost complete load, since I shot the other aircraft down with the cannons. Anyway, I shot the whole load into the back of the I16 at a distplayed distance of 0.12 - 0.08. I was in a cloud of debris and every single shot hit - until I was completely empty. I didn't believe it, pasued and looked at the I16. It had a minor battle damage on the left wing, that's it.... I WANT THAT PATCH =[

But back to the point:
I n my testflights against TB3 I opened fire from target's 12 at 0.7 and 0.5
I noticed that P40 was a lot more deadly than P47, especially in E-Version.
Tried it several times, but then I changed my tactic and fired at 0.3 and less and had about the same effect with P47 as with P40 at 0.5

P47 scatters the rounds a lot more.

As I allready stated: Try not on shooting down an aircraft, but attack a point (a tree for example) on the ground and watch the patterns.

Shooting this plane down and that plane with another plane is not really good testing, since we know, there's definately something wrong with damage modells.


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 12:28 PM
I don`t think so. The P-47s guns are further away from each other, and 8 guns rake the machine more than 6. It could be the lack of fire concentration and greater spreading on the P-47 for this reason.

And it`s very doubtful Oleg would write weapon effectiveness for each plane. From what he posted, it seems more logical that all the gun specs are written in a single file, and then the engine only refer to that file`s appropriate part to set damage, ROF etc. In brief, the gun effect must be the same on all planes.

Try close range and arcade mode. Oh, and good luck with counting the hits.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 02:16 PM
It's funny you should say that now because just last night I was in a QMB with a 47 and i was going against some 190s... I was right on this guy and all my shots were hitting..pieces were flying but nothing more was happening. I remember saying to myself....8 guns...should be more ...should be a quicker death...I'm talking 5 second bursts here at very close range... Hopefully the patch will take care of this.

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Cpt.LoneRanger
06-27-2003, 04:02 PM
"I don`t think so. The P-47s guns are further away from each other, and 8 guns rake the machine more than 6. It could be the lack of fire concentration and greater spreading on the P-47 for this reason." - Vo101_Isegrim


Is this an answer to my post? Then you DO THINK SO.

That's exactly what I said. =)


But the damage models ARE wrong:
I had a funny experience just yesterday:

I've flown the same test-mission as always, settling behind a TB3 and fired all I had from my P39. Every single bullet hit, till my last round of ammo. Nothing. A rudder was damaged, a few holes in the fuselage and wings, but apart from that - nothing (ok, the rear gunners were dead)

I tried again with a He111 and it exploded on the 2nd hit with my mighty cannon.

grrrrr, any date on that patch, btw =) ?


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 05:05 PM
Fly against a TB-3 in a Me-262, and then you will know the meaning of the word "frustrated" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 05:08 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- ITS TRUE! I swear to you.

Subjectively it seems the case to me too, and I've
said it a few times before.

The causes might be:

1. the P47 (rightly or wrongly) has more dispersion
2. There is a beta version of the .50 object in the
code and the P47 incorrecty references
3. None of the above!

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 05:11 PM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- On a related topic, the MG-151 on the 109F4 does
- more damage than the MG-151 on the 190D9. I deduced
- this after a few rounds in the QMB, and protest
- vehemently that my beloved Dora is undermodelled.

In the D9 it's synchronised to the prop, so that
might be part of it, although LW sychro gear
was very good and should only drop the ROF
by 10%.

- Of course, after actually checking the number of
- hits I got, I realized that there is no difference.

Or it could be this :-)

- I also realized that my results could vary wildy
- depending on range of firing,

I've noticed this too - sometimes the P47 is deadly,
sometimes ineffective. Subjectively the P40 seems
better. It might be dispersion, gun platform stability,
etc as well, of course.

- You'd also wonder why the dev team would take the
- time to model the gun specs differently for every
- plane, rather than just copy/paste the specs for
- identical guns.

It seems unlikely that the would,

Perhaps one other possible bug is that the split
trigger may have a bug. I.e. you might get the
light show for 8 guns, but only get the damage of 4?

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 05:19 PM
I also have noticed this, wondering how on earth six .50 cals can be more effective that 8 of them. Especially when you have set your convergence to the same settings with both planes!!! P-40 does kill extraordinarily well, I would call it devastating for the MG category. But I like it that way!! Just wish the P-47 would be as effective ( or more effective ).

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 05:24 PM
I think it's just that convergence is a little more difficult to get a handle on in the P-47. Seriously, I've taken wings clean off 190's with a short burst in a 47...that seems impressive to me.

Now if only we could get a plane stand and a fixed target let us actually set and calibrate our guns....

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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 05:29 PM
I think I recall seeing a tatment by someone assosciated with FB that the vibrations from 4 .50 mgs in each wing would cause the wing to twist & this would cause the dispersion. I don't know if this is what is happening but it seems possible to me. Anyone else hear/read this ?

Also I think tests against "friendly " aircraft are much more usefull than results in dogfights where there are just too many other varibles.



Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
- I don`t think so. The P-47s guns are further away
- from each other, and 8 guns rake the machine more
- than 6. It could be the lack of fire concentration
- and greater spreading on the P-47 for this reason.
-
- And it`s very doubtful Oleg would write weapon
- effectiveness for each plane. From what he posted,
- it seems more logical that all the gun specs are
- written in a single file, and then the engine only
- refer to that file`s appropriate part to set damage,
- ROF etc. In brief, the gun effect must be the same
- on all planes.
-
- Try close range and arcade mode. Oh, and good luck
- with counting the hits.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- <img
- src="http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-deskt
- opweb.jpg">
- 'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'
-
- Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
- (Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto
- of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)
-
- Flight tests and other aviation data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim
-



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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 05:36 PM
I dont know how you guys can fly P47 long enough to actually do some testing, but its guns do seem a little "meh".

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 06:51 PM
In the D9 it's synchronised to the prop, so that
might be part of it, although LW sychro gear
was very good and should only drop the ROF
by 10%.


Just FYI FB doesn't support lower ROF for synced guns. They all fire at max ROF, like in IL-2.

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 07:45 PM
Yes I agree with Gibbage fully, ive been flying the P40, all three versions latley, and ive notice the same thing to, It does more damage than the P-39 and the P-47. Someone mention that the P40's guns are more concentrated, they seem that way, I dont have to put the gun sight on the planes everytime I fire the guns, but in the P-47 the shots go wide with all 8 guns, I have to re adjust my aiming everytime. but if you get in real close with the P-47 and fire all 8 the target gets ripped to bits and usual a wing comes off or he explodes all together. But it could be undermodeled.

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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 07:48 PM
Hehe congrats Yanks,Oleg patched your planes well.

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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 08:59 PM
I was 100M and less from a Ju-52. It was filling my screen! There was no way of missing it, and all 8 guns were pumping into it.

Gib

Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
- I don`t think so. The P-47s guns are further away
- from each other, and 8 guns rake the machine more
- than 6. It could be the lack of fire concentration
- and greater spreading on the P-47 for this reason.
-

"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 09:03 PM
Fennec, your wrong. Take up a P-39 Q-1. It has 4 .50 cal's . two in the wings un-synced and two in the nose synced. Both guns have the same ammo load. Hold down the trigger. The nose guns last twice as long. Oleg said the gun sync is in. But he does it differant. Instead of a lower rate of fire, its a lower damage. On the P-39, the nose guns have HALF the damage, but twice the ammo to simulate the 1/2 ROF. If the D9 sync is 10%, then I guess he lowered the damage by 10% and gave 10% more ammo.

Gib

StG77_Fennec wrote:
- In the D9 it's synchronised to the prop, so that
- might be part of it, although LW sychro gear
- was very good and should only drop the ROF
- by 10%.
-
-
- Just FYI FB doesn't support lower ROF for synced
- guns. They all fire at max ROF, like in IL-2.
-
-
-
-



"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 10:48 PM
I just did a test in arcade mode and got some interesting results...

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/moose1285/grab0001.jpg


http://www.angelfire.com/comics/moose1285/grab0002.jpg



When I did the same in the P-40 I used all my ammo (I slowed time so everything hit) and suceeded in filling the center fusalage with arrow thingies. However, I did alot more damage with the p-47 (as the pictures show) and still had about half my ammo after I blew off both of his wings. I don't think it's an issue of power, I think that the recoil from the guns and the scattered effect of the convergance makes it difficult to see the same results.

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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 10:54 PM
MachineII, I think that is a bug as I have referred to it often as the "one bullet and no wing" bug for the FW-190. Yet I can dump my entire ammo load in a FW-190 from P-40 and P-47 and get nothing at all. Trying to shoot down 190's is the most frustrating thing in the game, you can literally riddle it with mg and cannon rounds and do very little damage, toughest plane in the game. Then you'll fire one shot from 400 meters away and take its wing of. The DM is so off that I'm sure this will all change and I can't wait. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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The_Blue_Devil
06-27-2003, 11:23 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- It's funny you should say that now because just last
- night I was in a QMB with a 47 and i was going
- against some 190s... I was right on this guy and all
- my shots were hitting..pieces were flying but
- nothing more was happening. I remember saying to
- myself....8 guns...should be more ...should be a
- quicker death...I'm talking 5 second bursts here at
- very close range... Hopefully the patch will take
- care of this.
-
The Jug requires you to fire at almost exact convergence range with your wings leveled damn near perfectly..I noticed the bullets have a tendancy to spray and not center like those of the mustang and or warhawk. BTW the Mustang explodes like the P40 currently which leads me to believe that they just used the same FM with the Mustang as they did with the P40 as a time saver until the mustang is ready..Which would explain the six gunned Mustang and warhawk doing more damage than the jug.

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Message Edited on 06/27/0310:24PM by The_Blue_Devil

XyZspineZyX
06-28-2003, 12:33 AM
I just did some messing around with the arcade mode,
counting bullet hits. If I increase by screen resolution
from my normal 1024x768x32 (about 45 fps) to 1600x1200
(about 20 fps, sometimes 30 fps - my monitor can only
do it at 60Hz) I get a much better proportion of rounds
to hit. At 250m on some passes I was getting as few
as 10% hits. Now I can get about 40 to 50% as it is easier
to be accurate with aiming (I was going for Ju52s
like Gibbage). It takes 40 to 80 hits to down a Ju52,
so a two second burst does the trick (removing tail,
wing, engine, or whatever).

It seems to make more of a difference to the P47 than
the P40, though, at least subjectively.

I am not sure what conclusions can be drawn from this
test, though.