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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 08:21 AM
At E-3 I got to fly the Me-163 with Oleg watching. Its VERY fast. Sometimes too fast. I just recently got the book "The flying wings of Jack Northrop". After the war they developed an aircraft to study flyign wings at high speeds. The aircraft the X4 build in 1948 showed "The flight program showed that above Mach 0.76 the aircraft experienced constant yawing and rolling motions. At the same time, elevron effectiveness decreased considerably. At higher Mach numbers, uncontrollable oscillations about the three axes were encounterd. Looking back, the results were not too suprising as the much earlier Messerschmitt Me-162 and De-Havilland D.H. 109 Swallow experienced the same difficulties". Interesting hay?

I was wondering if anyone (But Issy and Huck, we know what they will say) has any referances to the Me-163 doing this? This problem is a function of the flying wing itself since its compleatly all lift! At high speeds, its generating to much lift.

I want to tell this to Oleg so the Go-229 will be un-controllable at high speeds, and have him correct the Me-163 if I can find more evidance of it.

Does anyone here have further evidance of this happening?

Gib

"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 08:21 AM
At E-3 I got to fly the Me-163 with Oleg watching. Its VERY fast. Sometimes too fast. I just recently got the book "The flying wings of Jack Northrop". After the war they developed an aircraft to study flyign wings at high speeds. The aircraft the X4 build in 1948 showed "The flight program showed that above Mach 0.76 the aircraft experienced constant yawing and rolling motions. At the same time, elevron effectiveness decreased considerably. At higher Mach numbers, uncontrollable oscillations about the three axes were encounterd. Looking back, the results were not too suprising as the much earlier Messerschmitt Me-162 and De-Havilland D.H. 109 Swallow experienced the same difficulties". Interesting hay?

I was wondering if anyone (But Issy and Huck, we know what they will say) has any referances to the Me-163 doing this? This problem is a function of the flying wing itself since its compleatly all lift! At high speeds, its generating to much lift.

I want to tell this to Oleg so the Go-229 will be un-controllable at high speeds, and have him correct the Me-163 if I can find more evidance of it.

Does anyone here have further evidance of this happening?

Gib

"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
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</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 09:56 AM
From Eric Brown:

"I was diving at Mach 0.80 without problems"

"Me 163 pilots reported uncontrollable flight characteristics above Mach 0.84."

(No word by word quotes"

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 10:02 AM
Interesting. Do you know if its just stiff controles, or fluttering?

Gib

JtD wrote:
- From Eric Brown:
-
- "I was diving at Mach 0.80 without problems"
-
- "Me 163 pilots reported uncontrollable flight
- characteristics above Mach 0.84."
-
- (No word by word quotes"
-
-



"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 11:41 AM
Flying wings do a violent pitch down at transonic areas, happens to every flying wing, but as an aeronautical engineer of mine said nowadays a supersonic flying wing coul probably be built, but the 40's things just couldnt make it. The Me163 Komet was probably the best flying awing at the time though.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 12:35 PM
"Flying characteristics were unpleasant, if not dangerous. All three aircraft built crashed, killing their pilots. One was the British first aircraft to exceed the speed of sound, in a dive, flown by John Derry." (9 September 1948)

That was one gutsy pilot in the DH108!


http://me-serv.me.psu.ac.th/extra/Southamton/Pictures/Britain/Dh108__2.gif





http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap18a.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 12:47 PM
Interesting aircraft. Looks like flying wings in general had problems at high speed. I will alert Oleg when he gets back. I dont know it if will be in time to change the Me-163, or if he already knows this, and its already in. When I flew it, it was not. But that was months ago.

Gib

MiloMorai wrote:
- "Flying characteristics were unpleasant, if not
- dangerous. All three aircraft built crashed, killing
- their pilots. One was the British first aircraft to
- exceed the speed of sound, in a dive, flown by John
- Derry." (9 September 1948)
-
- That was one gutsy pilot in the DH108!
-
-
<img
- src="http://me-serv.me.psu.ac.th/extra/Southamton/
- Pictures/Britain/Dh108__2.gif">
-
-
-
-
-
-
<img
- src="http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap18
- a.jpg">
-



"You dont win a war by dieing for your country. You win a war by making the other fool die for his country."

<center>
http://gibbageart.havagame.com/images/sig01.jpg (http://gibbageart.havagame.com)
</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 02:15 PM
Some links about the Me163

http://www.kheichhorn.de/html/body_me_163_b_komet.html

And a report from Rudi Opitz

http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/articles/me163/me163_1.asp

read it some time ago... he mentioned nothing about such problems (as far as i remember), but I admit this proofs nothing, all Pilots are remembering the postive aspects of their plane more then the negativs it seems, nevertheless it´s an interesting report...

JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
I./Gruppe

http://www.jg53-pikas.de/
http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/pikasbanner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 02:31 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- Interesting. Do you know if its just stiff
- controles, or fluttering?
-
- Gib

At Mach 0.80 Eric Brown himself found everything was fine "Elevator/Aileron forces were low, no signs of compression".

Eric Brown says he was only told that "at Mach 0.84, the plane would shake heavily to suddenly nose down and go into a almost fatal dive".

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 02:36 PM
Various books and references(to lazy to look all of them up) refer to the very docile flight characteristics of the 163.I've only seen one reference to it being uncontrollable and that was when one pilot was approaching mach 1 over the baltic sea.Yes I'm one of those people who believe that the 163 came close.Also before the fur flies did you know that the US gov. would not let Howard Hughes fly in an after war race with a me-262 and one competitor was going to be an early sabre jet.I've also haven't read anything that descibes the northrup flying wing as hard to handle.Scientists and engineers can prove that a bumble bee can't fly.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 02:48 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:

- I want to tell this to Oleg so the Go-229 will be
- un-controllable at high speeds.

the Go229 had some kind of special air-brake that minimized the XX (what is the english word for "Auftrieb"?): i'll try to explain. This airbrake decreased the climbrate in horizontal flight (do you know what i mean ?) > it stops the plain from going into an Nose-up position...

To hold against the higher stick-forces at hight speed the go229 was able to adjust the stick in lengh (this adjusted the lever so the pilot was able to pull the high-stick-forces)



--

jope you could understand what i want to say....english is not my mother tongue...

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XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 03:25 PM
turenne wrote:
-Scientists and engineers can prove that a
- bumble bee can't fly.
-

That is incorrect. They only proved that if the bumble bee had rigid wings, and operated in the same scale as human built aircraft, that it could not fly. However, the bumble bee uses flexible wings, and flies at a much smaller scale, relative to the molecules in the air, allowing it to create some facinating turbulence eddies, in order to keep it aloft.

The proccessing power required to simulate bumbel bee flight also happens to bring most supercomputers to their knees. We have it much easier, dealing with rigid wings, and larger sizes, relative to the molecule size of air.

Harry Voyager