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View Full Version : is il2fb a simulator or a game for ******ed



XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:22 AM
i wonder if this game pretends to be a simulator or what because i dont think that WWII pilots had slowed down the elevator trim. It seems that some game developer considers unfair that a person is using two controls to pitch while the less able people only use one because using two controls at the same time seems too difficult.They turned a really good simulator as it was il2 into an arcade for ******ed who cant walk and eat peanuts at the same type. It will take long before i buy anything from a company that makes products for ******ed.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:22 AM
i wonder if this game pretends to be a simulator or what because i dont think that WWII pilots had slowed down the elevator trim. It seems that some game developer considers unfair that a person is using two controls to pitch while the less able people only use one because using two controls at the same time seems too difficult.They turned a really good simulator as it was il2 into an arcade for ******ed who cant walk and eat peanuts at the same type. It will take long before i buy anything from a company that makes products for ******ed.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:29 AM
It is neither. While I'm not happy with the way the trim is handled, I can very well indeed understand the reasoning behind it.

In most planes, the trim is a wheel which takes time to turn. The move from full down to full up on the elevator trim can be several revolutions on that wheel. It is not humanly possible to do that in a fraction of a second. The trim slowdown in FB is an attempt to emulate that behaviour.

However... some planes do have very quickly reacting trims. I fly one myself once in a while. It is *NOT* an advantage. The trim becomes rediculously sensitive and it's very difficult to find the sweetspot.

I think the problem is not so much in how quickly one could move the trim before as in how it actually was an advantage to do so. It shouldn't be an advantage. If it was, the trim wheels on these planes would've been built that way.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:36 AM
raaaid wrote:
- luckily I got it for free on the overnet.


Pffttt. Shut up.

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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:51 AM
i didnt say i had bought anything i said i wont .and when you trim and look at the cockpit nothing moves.And i bet that in wwII planes had fast trims since otherelse whats the point of having more energy if you cant exchange it for turn.The bat turns are not made with the trim are made with the speed

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:53 AM
Don't reply to this asshat who steals software

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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:56 AM
I don't know if FB is a game for ******s, surely some of the people that post here (e.g. the original poster) do their best to look line one.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 08:17 AM
How many hours have you logged, raaaid? How many of those are aerobatics?
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 08:24 AM
if you say that there are planes with high sensitivity trims WWII fighters must have had that kind of trim. the same that formula 1 cars have half revolution of wheel turn and normal cars have maybe 4 revolutions,how long will it take you to move the wheel from full rigth to full left in a formula 1, and in a normal car?

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 08:29 AM
raaaid wrote:
- if you say that there are planes with high
- sensitivity trims WWII fighters must have had that
- kind of trim.

But they didn't. The reason is not that they couldn't, but because it would cause more problems than it'd solve. It's very difficult to trim a plane with a quickly reacting trim wheel. Go to a museum and talk to the restoration staff about the trims. You'll find that it differs from plane to plane, but none of them (that I know of, I'm going a little on a limb here,) react quickly, they take quite some turning to get from one extreme to the other.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 08:36 AM
i really love WWIIcombat sim.I started with european air war,then cfs1,cfs2,il2 and now i may start with fb. I love flying i even did some paraglide. but the problem with simulators is that all behave different for example they all stall different and the same plane behave very different in different simulators.What i like the most about combat sims is pulling the joystick close to stall, to the limit,and i dont like fb because most of times you are pulling the joystick full back and it will still be very far from stall because of this trim question.thats why i think ill keep playin the old il2 and forget about fb

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 08:46 AM
raaaid wrote:
- if you say that there are planes with high
- sensitivity trims WWII fighters must have had that
- kind of trim. the same that formula 1 cars have half
- revolution of wheel turn and normal cars have maybe
- 4 revolutions,how long will it take you to move the
- wheel from full rigth to full left in a formula 1,
- and in a normal car?


What the hell do F1 cars have to to do with a ww2 fighters game ,and as for being ******ed have you looked in the mirror lately TROLL.

Sounds alot like RBJ if you ask me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 09:12 AM
The trim in FB sucks.

The ONLY reason they changed it was to appease a bunch of whiners who were too lazy to use it to fly better. It was one of those deals like FW forward view, where a bunch of people couldn't let it go. Except this time a change was made, and it ruined the sim.

People were all like "Waaa I'm getting my butt kicked online, must be because someone is out-trimming me. It's like Xwing vs Tie fighters"

So what does Oleg do? Instead of solving the root of the problem, he just slows the speed of trim movement. People can still turn just as hard using trim as in IL2. The only question is how to get max trim. Since the trim is nothing more than the elevator in this sim, all one needs to do is recalibrate their stick to fly around (level and hands free with near max trim) doing bat-turns.

It's so pathetic. Now only the exploiters can do bat-turns instead of any average player, and everybody has lost their fine trim control. Lose-Lose situtation.



"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Message Edited on 09/25/0304:19AM by RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 11:07 AM
pourshot wrote:
- Sounds alot like RBJ if you ask me

He is RBJ, that's why he writes with no capital letters and no spaces between lines, and spells IL-2 differently: not to look like himself (i.e. RBJ).
Clever, but not enough: way overdone.

A.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 11:18 AM
Oh man this is worse stuff than the .50 cal won't kill a Tiger stuff.
Trimming to turn sharper? Trim has one, and only one purpose. Allowing a pilot to fly hands off to reduce pilot fatigue. It also helps when shooting as the aircraft does fight you.

However I strongly encourage you to go take a flight lesson in a Cessna. Once airborne ask if you can use the elevator trim to turn harder. Let me know how long the instructor laughs.

I've seen no "bat" turns online. Most aircraft stall long before you reach maximum elevator. If your going so fast you can actually pull full up elevator without stalling. Then you must be flying while blacked out.

These are WWII fighter planes not modern jet fighters or even aerobatic planes. No G suit's equals 6 positive G's is blacking out.

Sounds to me like a whiney kids thread about how they used to be able to use "bat" turns online to give them an edge while others were just trying to fly based upon a little reality.

Reality is trim in real life doesn't move the entire elevator. It's also not very big except on slower aircraft, and then it's not going to help you turn more either way.

If anything the game has too much trim as it is. Trim is designed to operate and be effective at cruising speeds. Not low speeds or extremely high speeds.
If anyone is adjusting their settings to accomplish this in FB. I feel sorry for them as they need to go play a game, and not a simulator.

I fly FB because it is a simulator. Taking advantage of game glitches, or little things like over effective trim to gain an advantage is cheating. No argument it's cheating anyway you slice it.

Just because the game will allow you to do it doesn't make it right. I've known about the over responsive trim even if it is slowed. Do I use it? Yeah when performing outside loops in QMB for aerobatic tracks in a 109.
However it's not on a slider, or another joystick.

As it's already been said you simply cannot do it in a real aircraft. The trim is usually only on one half of the elevator anyway. At high speeds you shouldn't be able to stall a fighter. Rip the wings off maybe, but not over pitch into a stall.
I just wish the blackout effects happened faster, and once blacked out they lasted a good 15+ seconds.

As far as two joysticks and calling those who choose to fly it like a sim names. I can race myself on PS2 hands against my feet. Sometimes my feet even win. So aren't you so much more skilled than most who can't use two hands moving in the same direction at the same time?

Last time I looked in the cockpit of a WWII fighter there was only one stick.

JerseyD
09-25-2003, 11:18 AM
They only slowed it down to hide the real problem.The game handles trim wrong.It lets you put UFO life moves if you have your plane trimmed all the way up or down.
Rather than fix the FM code they let everybody think that trim was some kind of cheat and acted like they where doing us some sort of favor by slowing it down.All they really did was try and cover up there glarring mistake in the FM.

In WW2OL the trim still works exactly like it did in old IL-2 but theres one major difference.In WW2OL it doesnt give you UFO like abilities.And guess what... No-one complaines about it asking them to slow it down because it the FM is correct in that game.Well at least as far as that goes anyway.


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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 11:18 AM
thats the thing if you got an elevator and aleron trim in your joystick, then you can full trim up the elevator in the game and full trim down with the joystick trim going leveled and just having to put the joystick trim in normal when you want to make an instant turn.Anyhow if i had been a figther pilot in WWII the first thing i would make sure is that i could pitch untill the limit which is not possible in the game at high speeds.Besides if the trim is realisticly configurated then the elevator isnt because wwii pilots flew to the limit and with this mixture of elevator and trim elevator you just can fly to the limit at high speeds.Do the game developers know the difference between instant turning rate and holded turning rate, with this system of elevator the instant turning rate doesnt exist.I think that the first il2 was designed by a good combatsim player while the forgotten battles must have been designed by someone who doesnt even know that the key to combat is the energy

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 11:19 AM
raaaid wrote:
- i wonder if this game pretends to be a simulator or
- what because i dont think that WWII pilots had
- slowed down the elevator trim. It seems that some
- game developer considers unfair that a person is
- using two controls to pitch while the less able
- people only use one because using two controls at
- the same time seems too difficult.They turned a
- really good simulator as it was il2 into an arcade
- for ******ed who cant walk and eat peanuts at the
- same type. It will take long before i buy anything
- from a company that makes products for ******ed.
-
-

You obviously have no concept of just how offensive this post is (which i assume is due to your age) but i'm astonished that it has not been locked or removed by the mods. It would appear that if you have someting innocuous to say about aircraft behaviour in this GAME the mods jump all over it and quewe up to lock it whereas some moron can make remarks such as "il2 into an arcade for ******ed who cant walk and eat peanuts at the same type." and thats just fine. Those of you who have responded in a similar vein should be ashamed. This place gets more pathetic daily.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 11:42 AM
raaaid your use of the word ******ed in reference to IL2 is disgusting and highly offensive. I hope you are banned little man/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 11:45 AM
In real AC you have to be careful with the trim especially at high speeds. Now in FB, it just trickles out slow and you can't tell if anything is changing for like 10 seconds.

Anyway you slice it trim in FB is wrong.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 11:50 AM
Oh yeah thats why in WWII all combat pilots flew around with their trim turned all the way up. That way they could pull even more painfull G's, and hope the wings stayed on.

If you are going so fast full deflection doesn't stall you your turn rate stinks anyway. I'd suggest reading up on cornering speed. Thats your instant turn and it's a low speed not a high speed thing.
It also varies for every aircraft.

JerseyD
09-25-2003, 11:50 AM
hey RBJ I see that your sig is homeless again.
need a new one? here you go/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://home.cfl.rr.com/jerseydevil/JerseyDevil's%20Frag%20Zone/Frag%20Zone_files/sharkattack.jpg


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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 11:51 AM
hey mods how about banning raaaid's ip bet we wont see rbj for a week


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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 12:03 PM
SmokeJaguar wrote:
-
- raaaid your use of the word ******ed in reference to
- IL2 is disgusting and highly offensive. I hope you
- are banned little man

Is it me or or people overeacting to this little guy? Disgusting and highly offensive? Get a grip, man. He's just PO'ed about the terrible trim in FB, and rightfully so.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 12:17 PM
Pretty offensive post IMHO. I agree with Smoke Jaguar - where I am from the word ******ed is (to say the least) offensive and vulgar.

Mods - You should lock this post and just get rid of Raaaid/RBJ's posting privelages. It is another "Trim is whacked" BS post - AGAIN. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 12:20 PM
Is there some hidden conspiracy to not talk about trim going on? Don't ask don't tell?

It must be sad to not be able to watch shows like Saturday Night Live because you take things too seriously.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 12:26 PM
the person who wins an online turning fight in the same starting conditions is the one who is able to put the plane closer to the stall limit,which is an ability for which some people are better than others.the main things they have changed from il2 to fb have been first slowing the trim which means that most time you can forget about stallin as long as you keep over 400 km,easy you could even do this with the keyboard.Second thing they changed,the wind noise that told you you were about to stall, now it has almost disappeared,now is easier to make sure you are around 400 km when you turn than to take it to the limit by means of a fast response to the increase of stalling sound. So they turned a game in which what counted was the reflexes and the tact with the joystick into a game in which all you have to do is keeping the joystick pulled fully and keeping and ideal speed it just sucks.I have this opinion of the game Im not insulting anybody I just say they turned an awesome game into an stupid game and thats why i say it seems to be for ******ed,too easy.I dont say anything to whose playin as ill be playing myself, though not too long i suspect

JerseyD
09-25-2003, 12:35 PM
maybe just change the title to "is il2fb a simulator or a game for the mentaly challenged" or something /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
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Message Edited on 09/25/0307:45AM by JerseyD

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 12:47 PM
Or not make a dumba$$ post like this at all.
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif



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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 01:04 PM
It's not a dumb post. He is talking about how in IL2, the flight model was crisp and the trim was 1:1.

Now, in FB, the trim is a slow trickle and the air feels like grease.

For those who only come into here to flame instead of talk about the FM there is another thread where you can vent your frustration http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5520 Go tell those people how oversensitive you are and leave the FM talk to us.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Hawgdog
09-25-2003, 01:05 PM
raaaid wrote:
- i really love WWIIcombat sim.I started with european
- air war,then cfs1,cfs2,il2 and now i may start with
- fb. I love flying i even did some paraglide. but the
- problem with simulators is that all behave different
- for example they all stall different and the same
- plane behave very different in different
- simulators.What i like the most about combat sims is
- pulling the joystick close to stall, to the
- limit,and i dont like fb because most of times you
- are pulling the joystick full back and it will still
- be very far from stall because of this trim
- question.thats why i think ill keep playin the old
- il2 and forget about fb


donde están los limones. pffffffft Did you pirate this software?

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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 01:12 PM
It's not a dumb post you say Ray?

Well that would be because the poster is one of your billion aliases /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

The man just won't drop it...

It's getting ever so tiresome /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 01:18 PM
Believe it or not, there are other people who care about how this flight sim feels.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 01:21 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- It's not a dumb post. He is talking about how in
- IL2, the flight model was crisp and the trim was
- 1:1.
-
- Now, in FB, the trim is a slow trickle and the air
- feels like grease.
-
- For those who only come into here to flame instead
- of talk about the FM there is another thread where
- you can vent your frustration <a
- href="http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewt
- opic.php?t=5520"
- target=_blank>http://acompletewasteofspace.com/for
- um/viewtopic.php?t=5520</a> Go tell those people
- how oversensitive you are and leave the FM talk to
- us.

Because he is a self opinionated know nothing gimp, you simply don't get it do you? how old are you? If you want to continue to b!tch about trim (btw if you were half the ace you claim to be it wouldn't be of such concern to you) then ok, but why do you insist on mocking those less fortunate than yourself, this is a public forum fgs

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 01:25 PM
I don't mock anybody. I look past those things and stick to the relevant issues. Sure raaid could have used better words, but I'm not going to go off track and throw a hissy fit like some people. This is a flight sim forum, not a sensitivity support group.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Message Edited on 09/25/0308:34AM by RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 02:09 PM
Man I'm a moron! All those times I was shot down, and all I needed to do to win was do 400 and put it as close to a stall as possible? lol

I won't even say what I feel about that statement. The trim being slow has nothing to do with the flight model. Nobody has any buisness using two joysticks so they can turn harder than the aircraft should by using trim on one.
If it's that big a deal just trim it where you have to hold half down stick to fly level. Then you get as much turn or more so than anyone needs.

There's more to dogfighting than turning. Using trim in a turn is stupid. It's definitely not realistic in any way. The trim is in fact modelled wrong and thats the only reason it would give you a turn advantage in the first place.

It doesn't change the aircraft any with or without it. It's when maybe 25% of the people flying start using something like that it even becomes a problem. As aircraft that normally would out turn another aircraft are suddenly being out turned by the other.

It's a bad FM glitch in the dynamics. I can't program half as good much less better so it doesn't bother me. I trim my plane to fly level, and then I fly.

Like I said fighter pilots do not now nor have they ever gone around cranking on their trim controls except in extreme situations like they could get the stick to move due to high speeds coming out of a dive.
However since the game allows the controls to move no matter what the speed even if slowed it takes out the need for that.

The only thing I say is when my elevator gets knocked out I should still be able to use my trim to fly home. As they are seperate controls.

Instead they are combined controls which by using full up trim, and full up elevator you can actually move the elevator farther than the actual aircraft possibly could.

That's cheating.

If you want to gripe about the FM then fine do so. However complaining the trim is too slow isn't griping about the flight model. It's griping that you can't cheat anymore and do unrealistic manuevers.

If you want to gripe on flight models I say seperate trim from the elevator, aileron, and rudder controls. So they still work when the controls die unless the trim controls are hit also.
Then I say use historically accurate trim tabs on the surfaces. Of course it in no way helps you do fancy little trim turns. Trim has very little effect and requires many turns of the wheel. Thats why it's only suitable for level cruise flight, and emergency situations where airspeed is so high a little trim makes a big difference.

So once again discussing a problem with the FM is one thing. Complaining that the trim is too slow is not discussing a problem with the flight model. It's discussing something you liked to take advantage of in IL2 and that they fixed due to countless complaints in Forgotten Battles. It's is an IL2 vs FB discussion and not a FM discussion.

The FM is wrong for the trim but fixing it would do nothing for your little gripe. Boohoo you have to fly the aircraft realistically. If you can't get it near a stall I suggest decreasing your speed until you can. The slower you go the tighter of a circle you make.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 02:17 PM
raaaid wrote:
- i really love WWIIcombat sim.I started with european
- air war,then cfs1,cfs2,il2 and now i may start with
- fb. I love flying i even did some paraglide. but the
- problem with simulators is that all behave different
- for example they all stall different and the same
- plane behave very different in different
- simulators.What i like the most about combat sims is
- pulling the joystick close to stall, to the
- limit,and i dont like fb because most of times you
- are pulling the joystick full back and it will still
- be very far from stall because of this trim
- question.thats why i think ill keep playin the old
- il2 and forget about fb

You love WW2 combat sims and you dont fly FB....hmmm......go figure.

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Hawgdog
09-25-2003, 02:19 PM
Trim on sliders is a cheat. If you use trim in such a fasion its because you are compensating for shortcomings in your pants...or your shirt for the lady fliers. The reason the trim IS the way it IS (like the creative use of caps?) is because fliers who couldnt keep up with the boys who practice had to do something. Still, all those trim slider looooooooosah's get their arses handed to them. Leaning on an artificial (thats fake) methods to overcome your lack of practice is cheating. I bet you fly with externals and no cockpit.
See what happens when you finally realize trim on a slider is no replacement for team tactics?
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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 02:37 PM
*Every single flight sim that has ever existed that has trim, you can turn harder using trim*

If you are behind the times, it's your problem. I suggest you get with the program and learn how to dogfight, and yes turning hard is an important aspect of dogfighting. It's important for turning and burning, and also if you don't use trim on a slider you will only ever be half the boom and zoom pilot you could ever be either.

I would rather have everyone get easy access to max trim like it was in IL2, instead of people who only apply the RBJ ShiftT being able to do so called "bat-turns" (the hardest turn possible) at will. And for people who value being able to control their aircraft with dual preciscion, slow-trickle trim is a kind of a slap in the face if you ask me.
---------------------------------------
Hawgdog wrote:
- Trim on sliders is a cheat.

I suppose real pilots are cheats too them, because they have trim on sliders too.

- If you use trim in such
- a fasion its because you are compensating for
- shortcomings in your pants...or your shirt for the
- lady fliers.

Actually, it is because it enables one to perform better than one who doesn't use it.


- The reason the trim IS the way it IS
- (like the creative use of caps?) is because fliers
- who couldnt keep up with the boys who practice had
- to do something.

I suppose you think people who use aeilerons to turn are cheats too. Real men just fly in a straight line right?

- Still, all those trim slider
- looooooooosah's get their arses handed to them.

You never fought against an ace like me.

- Leaning on an artificial (thats fake) methods to
- overcome your lack of practice is cheating. I bet
- you fly with externals and no cockpit.

Actually, the people who think people who use trim on a slider are cheats, are the ones who are using a crutch to expalin why they keep getting shot down.

- See what happens when you finally realize trim on a
- slider is no replacement for team tactics?

You obviously have no clue as to what the argument here is, and by the way I specialize in taking on entire squadrons at once ..and winning. NO I am not interested in joining your squad! (I always have to say afterwards)


"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Message Edited on 09/25/0309:54AM by RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 02:57 PM
JerseyD wrote:
- hey RBJ I see that your sig is homeless again.
- need a new one? here you go


ROFLMAO JD... Oh man

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

JerseyD
09-25-2003, 02:58 PM
http://www.b737.org.uk/trimmers.jpg


whats that? a trim knob? from a real plane? nah it couldnt be.Could it?

The trim knobs on my x45 think it is!!!
I think I agree with them

<Center>http://home.cfl.rr.com/jerseydevil/JerseyDevil's%20Frag%20Zone/Frag%20Zone_files/109chevysig.jpg (http://www.mudmovers.com/Sims/IL2/il2_skins_sports.htm)</center>

J¨rsé¿D¨v*L

<a href=http://www.diskworks.com/myth.html>The Jersey Devil (Fact or Fiction?)</a>



Message Edited on 09/25/0310:01AM by JerseyD

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 03:09 PM
Some real pilot aces said they used trim all the time, like it was riding a bike. They would be very unhappy if they found out what happened to the trim in FB. It's just sad that people have nothing better to do than cry cheat because some people can control their plane better than others. Here's to Oleg & Co. making the trim 1:1 like it was in IL2, and instead of trying to orchestrate a cover-up (slow trim) they should fix the problem for real.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 03:20 PM
the guy steal's software, then comes to the official forum to btch about it.

Man, i think we have a winner.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 03:28 PM
the first thing to know is if in one of this real planes the elevator goes farther by trimming or not.some people say that trimming does so,I dont know.but if it does certainly is one of the key to victory and in the game does so, so fully trimming is key for victory in the game.Second thing, in the game to fly leveled take you ages while in il2 took you a second, no wonder why they added the level fly key,and in a real fighter plane im sure it takes you less than the 21 seconds that takes you in the game to trim from fully up to fully down.
third and more important question if they were so concerned with the controls improvement they could have changed what was wrong and keep what was right.But they did the opposite now we dont have trim control and keep on suffering the dead zone issue.If they had played longer they would have realize that the dead zone is not a dead zone but an unoperative zone, while you have the joystick in the dead zone doesnt move but when the joystick comes out of the dead zone it moves all the way instead of start moving,so unless you have a perfect joystick you have to choose between the speed and keeping the pedals centered with a huge dead zone or not having the pedals centered loosing speed but having pedals that can be controlled

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 03:55 PM
Dead zone now? You truly are a muppet. Learn how to setup your controller. It's not difficult.

As for trim, have you ever flown a plane? Trim does not make a control surface move any further. All trim really does is alter the 'neutral' position. Trim is for getting your plane flying in a certain way with little or no input. When climbing, you trim. When descending, you trim. Or in this case, when half one wing's been blown off and the plane wants to veer right/up/left/down/in circles, you trim.

Whether this has been modelled with 100% accuracy is one thing, but to whinge because they've taken away your favourite way of fighting is just ridiculous.

Try learning some real tactics, teamwork, and how to use energy. Read a book or seven (if you ask your teacher they'll point you in the direction of the local library).

Berk.

Hawgdog
09-25-2003, 03:55 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:

- Hawgdog wrote:
-- Trim on sliders is a cheat.
-
- I suppose real pilots are cheats too them, because
- they have trim on sliders too.


Aceless wonder RBJ, you are as predictable as the morning sun. Hash it however you'd like, you're cheating.

"real pilots us trim on sliders"? Thats laughable other than its completely false.Then we should have fire and forget missles in a WWII sim as well??

pfffft to you


"strong in him it is, the stench of cheat"
Hawgdog to Aceless wonder

<center></script>The original HawgDog, dont be fooled by fneb imitations
~W~ cause S! has become USELESS
When you get to hell, tell 'em Hawgdog sent you
http://users.zoominternet.net/~cgatewood/assets/images/sharkdog.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:09 PM
raaaid wrote:
- in the
- game to fly leveled take you ages while in il2 took
- you a second, no wonder why they added the level fly
- key

Good point raaaid.


KaiserB_uk wrote:
- Trim does
- not make a control surface move any further.

That is incorrect. With respect to pilot strength (which is modeled in this sim) and control surface compression due to high speed aitflow over the controller, trim can and will allow one to move the surface furthur than the pilot could do with just his arm strength. Thats why trim only helps you turn at higher speeds.


Hawgdog wrote:
- "real pilots us trim on sliders"? Thats laughable
- other than its completely false.Then we should have
- fire and forget missles in a WWII sim as well??
-
- pfffft to you

Slider, knob, lever whatever you want to call it, they had it. Certain planes like the FW had buttons. Unfortunately even these aren't implemented well in FB. In the FW, when you pushed the trim button for 3 seconds, it din't move for 10 seconds with no way to reverse it like it does in FB.

Admit it, trim in FB is borked and it needs to be fixed. What I see here is a prejudice against trim. Why don't they slow down the prop pitch too? There are prop pitch exploits too if you want to look at it that way (negative).

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:16 PM
1)whinning help the developers
2)seems that trim is wrong as shouldnt pulled the elevators farther up than the stick does
3)seems that the elevator stick is wrong since you can pull higher the elevator by fully trimming than by fully pulling the stick
4)the dead zone option is useless since if you have 4 grades of dead zone, two grades to the left and two grades to the right and you move the joystick three grades to the right it should count one grade to the right but it counts three
5)the trim seems to move slower and less acurately than in a real fighter plane
6)if these problem are solved and ubi makes a good game certainly i will buy their products when i have money

Hawgdog
09-25-2003, 04:16 PM
Wow.....in after the lock, mother of all holy f u ckers!
Gotta love it!

and a big fat Pffffffffft to you Baldie Jr. Too much slider and not enough trim to see the jest of the post

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTT!



Message Edited on 09/25/0306:07PM by Hawgdog

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:20 PM
IL2: crisp, accurate trim, crisp flight model

FB: sloth trim, soft flight model, and auto-leveling feature

Which is better?

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

ZG77_Nagual
09-25-2003, 04:26 PM
RBJ - uh... high marks to ..er.. limiting your focus.

Trim on a slider
Heat sink compound
Nvidia

I definitely find the subject line of this thread offensive.
I also dislike the advocacy of software piracy.
As soon as I can find a moderator on this cesspit I intend to complain.

Loudly.

Or maybe I'll just go somewhere else.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

JerseyD
09-25-2003, 04:28 PM
Hawdawg, Is trim on a trim knob a cheat? If yes you better call Siatek and CH and tell them quick!!!

<Center>http://home.cfl.rr.com/jerseydevil/JerseyDevil's%20Frag%20Zone/Frag%20Zone_files/109chevysig.jpg (http://www.mudmovers.com/Sims/IL2/il2_skins_sports.htm)</center>

J¨rsé¿D¨v*L

<a href=http://www.diskworks.com/myth.html>The Jersey Devil (Fact or Fiction?)</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:30 PM
LMAO U GET THE HERO OF THE DAY AWARD !!!

<center><font size="7" color="red">Arcade Mode Inabled[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:32 PM
Trim ahhh I never thought it was so important just another key bind somewhere. Thanks I will try that tonight see if it helps with levelling.

And I should know.

Experience:

Used to own a polestyrene glider plane (4ft wide) with detachible wings which fell off if you threw it too hard.


Now ask me about planes !

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:35 PM
Raid for one you should use your real name to post LOL

for two altho FB has some shortcomings I still like it alot the trim is fast enough if you know what your doing maybe you should learn to df with more tactics than just yank & bank

PS your combat flaps work too you know ?

<center><font size="7" color="red">Arcade Mode Inabled[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:44 PM
I don't know anything bout trim, but is RBJ Iraqi ? Is that why everyone's all over him?

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:49 PM
cokebuck wrote:
- I don't know anything bout trim, but is RBJ Iraqi ?
- Is that why everyone's all over him?
-
-

I think it's because he keeps changing his name and posting the same old t0ss. Who knows. He's certainly got up my nose just reading this thread. I'm supposed to be working for god's sake. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



Message Edited on 09/25/0303:57PM by KaiserB_uk

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:58 PM
Hawgdog,

Pay attention. You are arguing poorly.

The fact remains: it does not matter if a trim-wheel can be turned faster than in real life... if we must talk about such things, I'll be happy to remind you:

1. RL pilots couldnt make thier cockpit disappear.
2. RL pilots couldnt change thier throttle into a rudder.
3. RL pilots couldnt see arrows.
4. RL pilots didn't have padlock.
5. RL pilots did not have hydralic sticks and had to pull HARD during extreme moves.
6. RL pilots didn't fly like most online pilots because they would have WASHED OUT of training.

Got it?

The flight model has been BROKEN since day one. The whiners, who were totally ignorant to the root of the problem, demanded that the trim be slowed down to more closely approximate RL, which is total bull since it does not address the BROKEN FLIGHT MODEL and does nothing to enhance REALISM within the sim.

If you do not like RBJ, ignore him, but please don't argue on this point. The trim in FB is porked, thereby prooving that old saying: the masses are asses.

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 05:00 PM
cokebuck wrote:
- I don't know anything bout trim, but is RBJ Iraqi ?
- Is that why everyone's all over him?
-
-

No RBJ your not Iraqi...

in my opinion I prefered Il2 Trim v FB Trim but its not going to change no matter how much you b*tch about it...

They changed how some of the ac trim in the sim after 1.11 patch I noticed it right away...

I use trim myself to get my AC flying straight and also to retrim in dives when the speed changes the effect of the levelflight trim... Rarley do I use trim to turn with because I dont turn that much for one and for two it dosent seem to do much anyway combat flaps are much more effective to turn with and they also help you bleed speed fast so that your turning radiouse is smaller dont get too slow tho ACE LOL or youll be diggin your own grave

Good Luck Ace Case

Muahahahahhahhahhaa



<center><font size="7" color="red">Arcade Mode Inabled[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 05:08 PM
Uspoon wrote:
- raaaid wrote:
-- i wonder if this game pretends to be a simulator or
-- what because i dont think that WWII pilots had
-- slowed down the elevator trim. It seems that some
-- game developer considers unfair that a person is
-- using two controls to pitch while the less able
-- people only use one because using two controls at
-- the same time seems too difficult.They turned a
-- really good simulator as it was il2 into an arcade
-- for ******ed who cant walk and eat peanuts at the
-- same type. It will take long before i buy anything
-- from a company that makes products for ******ed.
--
--
-
- You obviously have no concept of just how offensive
- this post is (which i assume is due to your age) but
- i'm astonished that it has not been locked or
- removed by the mods. It would appear that if you
- have someting innocuous to say about aircraft
- behaviour in this GAME the mods jump all over it and
- quewe up to lock it whereas some moron can make
- remarks such as "il2 into an arcade for ******ed who
- cant walk and eat peanuts at the same type." and
- thats just fine. Those of you who have responded in
- a similar vein should be ashamed. This place gets
- more pathetic daily.
-
-

I couldn't agree more..............well stated .




The genuine Hawg-dawg....USA
Proud former member of Kelly Johnson's "SKUNK WORKS"
Fat Boys and.... Props Forever....Baby

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 05:12 PM
Uspoon wrote:
- raaaid wrote:
-- i wonder if this game pretends to be a simulator or
-- what because i dont think that WWII pilots had
-- slowed down the elevator trim. It seems that some
-- game developer considers unfair that a person is
-- using two controls to pitch while the less able
-- people only use one because using two controls at
-- the same time seems too difficult.They turned a
-- really good simulator as it was il2 into an arcade
-- for ******ed who cant walk and eat peanuts at the
-- same type. It will take long before i buy anything
-- from a company that makes products for ******ed.
--
--
-
- You obviously have no concept of just how offensive
- this post is (which i assume is due to your age) but
- i'm astonished that it has not been locked or
- removed by the mods. It would appear that if you
- have someting innocuous to say about aircraft
- behaviour in this GAME the mods jump all over it and
- quewe up to lock it whereas some moron can make
- remarks such as "il2 into an arcade for ******ed who
- cant walk and eat peanuts at the same type." and
- thats just fine. Those of you who have responded in
- a similar vein should be ashamed. This place gets
- more pathetic daily.
-
-

I couldn't agree more............. well stated .


The genuine Hawg-dawg....USA
Proud former member of Kelly Johnson's "SKUNK WORKS"
Fat Boys and.... Props Forever....Baby

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 05:24 PM
if you want to see an elevator trim get a p40 look to the left, close to the acelerator and tell me if you think that moving that thing fully will take you 21 seconds.
if somebody tells me how to get a picture of the game i will post it to clearly prove that 1l2 was more realistic than fb at least in that sense. Isnt it curious that all planes have the trim on the left, may be its because you use it at the same time than the stick

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 05:40 PM
Scragbat wrote:
- It's not a dumb post you say Ray?
-
- Well that would be because the poster is one of your
- billion aliases >
-
- The man just won't drop it...
-
- It's getting ever so tiresome

He won't drop it because this sh!t is what passes for funny stuff in Ray's world. Though you'd think he'd find a new joke to amuse himself with by now. Oh well. That's what comes of a lack of imagination.

Ray knows feck-all about actual WWII fighters. He also is a big booster for medium settings because "real men dogfight, they don't bounce" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif . Of course he won't recognize the fact that 80% of kills scored in WWII were done via bounce/ BnZ. "Dogfighting" was the exception rather than the rule in WWII. And no sane fighter pilot would engage in some ridiculous swirly fight like people do in this sim.

Which brings us to the crux of his issue with the present model of trim. He's been denied his little arcade/gamer technique that he used for dogfighting in a/c that nobody should dogfight in.

As for raaid- you are a P.O.S. for stealing software. And you know feck-all about that which you are talking either.



Message Edited on 09/25/0304:44PM by LilHorse

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 05:53 PM
wrong most kills were made without the pilot realizing till was too late, read something.
spitfires won bf109s because they turned faster no german ace downed more than 5 spit fire.
real pilots like taking the plane to the limit, not using the advantage of bnz or the group tactics,wether piloting a plane a car a bike or whatever if you take the thing closer to the limit than the other person then you are better pilot as simple as that

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 06:07 PM
i bet he is a member of the famous RottenBastardJohnnie's family...RBJ that is !

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 06:10 PM
raaaid wrote:
- wrong most kills were made without the pilot
- realizing till was too late, read something.

I do "read something", dimwit. And what you just described above is being bounced. Thanks for confirming what I stated before.

- spitfires won bf109s because they turned faster no
- german ace downed more than 5 spit fire.

I assume here you refer to the BoB which was probably the last major air battle where anything like extended dogfights took place between these a/c. And even still most victories in that battle came as a result of the bounce.

- real pilots like taking the plane to the limit,
- not using the advantage of bnz or the group
- tactics,wether piloting a plane a car a bike or
- whatever if you take the thing closer to the limit
- than the other person then you are better pilot as
- simple as that

No, kid. REAL pilots didn't "like" taking their plane to the limit as if it were some kind of game. REAL pilots were interested in completing their missions and surviving.

Maybe YOU should "read something".
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 06:17 PM
When trim was fast, it added another element, another thing to use in order to be an ace.

Now, you can just jimmy it up (RBJ ShiftT) to do bat-turns at will, and forget about it. Wow! What skill that takes! And please, don't tell me that turning performance means nothing in a dogfight. Not only will you win the tie ups, but you will land twice as many shots on your BnZ flybys.

So FB is set and forget trim, soft flight model, flaps can hardly be felt anymore, and autolevel instead of trimming for level flight.

I think we know which is for newbies, and which is for aces.

"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 06:30 PM
Most of the people who complain about trim being too slow in FB are not real pilots. All the real planes I have ever flown have trim wheels or cranks and take 4ever to get from full trim down to full trim up. And they even take quit a while to get from the middle ( neutral trim ) to either extreme. I have never flown a fighter type aircraft, let alone in combat, but I doubt most fighter pilots adjusted it much in the heat of battle. Unless the stick forces to do the manuever they wanted to do was very excessive. Even then, it probably took them a while to get it adjusted to where they wanted it. And, even so, they no doubt didn't adjust it to help them to turn tighter ( since it doesn't
actually help that in RL ) but instead did it only to relieve the stick pressure. Also, I realize that there is
no doubt differences in how fast trim wheels/cranks can be moved from one plane to another. But one thing is a fact:
Trimming is designed to be a "fine" control of pitch, roll or yaw, and in this case we're discussing pitch/elevator trim. If they made trim that adjusted really quickly, it would make it harder to adjust and that would defeat it's purpose to begin with. If I had a trim wheel in the Cessna 172 I fly that adjusted quickly, or at a fast rate, I'd hate flying the goddamm thing. Since it would be too hard to make fine adjustments to attain level flight, hands free. I'm afraid people like RBJ don't fully, or even partially understand trim and it's purpose in flying aircraft. He's a gamer, not a RL pilot like some of us. And he's a very bitter person who can't deal with defeat.


"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 06:43 PM
im not talking about real pilots im talkin about the difference between good and bad pilots,why do you think that rossi or shumacher win,because they brake later and turn harder.And since bnz is so important why didnt the germans won the war.Because when thy went down to protect the bombers they were blown out of the sky by the spitfires.hartman 317 downed 3 or 4 spitfire.not ace in the western front with such numbers.Spit fire, slower, less climbing rate but it has a higher turning rate at holded cornering speed than the bf109,its only advantage.And thank god somebody thought that turning was important because now you can say all nonsense you want like that turning is not important when they won 20 for each because of the turning rate

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 06:54 PM
a pilot in wwii would keep himself always above the enemy bouncing once in a while and seeing his companions fall, a real pilot would go down right the way and starting downing planes one after another turning like hell

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 06:56 PM
raaaid wrote:
- im not talking about real pilots im talkin about the
- difference between good and bad pilots,why do you
- think that rossi or shumacher win,because they brake
- later and turn harder.

http://www.uploadit.org/files/250903-valentino_rossi2.jpg


(Scusa Vale! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )



http://www.uploadit.org/files/170903-G55_Firma.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:23 PM
what i dont like about the trim in fb is not that i cant bat turn its obvious how to do it just the same as in il2.what i really dislike is that i lost the turning aim i had with il2, i could set the trim to make my plane turn just as my enemy without touching the joystick and then use the joystick for sligth corrections
so if they changed the trim to avoid bat turns they certainly got it wrong.And if they did it in order to be more ralistic look at the p 40 trim and tell me if that would take 21 seconds to turn

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:28 PM
raaaid wrote:
- im not talking about real pilots im talkin about the
- difference between good and bad pilots,why do you
- think that rossi or shumacher win,because they brake
- later and turn harder.And since bnz is so important
- why didnt the germans won the war.Because when thy
- went down to protect the bombers they were blown out
- of the sky by the spitfires.hartman 317 downed 3 or
- 4 spitfire.not ace in the western front with such
- numbers.Spit fire, slower, less climbing rate but it
- has a higher turning rate at holded cornering speed
- than the bf109,its only advantage.And thank god
- somebody thought that turning was important because
- now you can say all nonsense you want like that
- turning is not important when they won 20 for each
- because of the turning rate

Sorry, kid, but you said "real pilots" before. It's in your own post. Maybe you should re-read it.

And the above post shows just how little you know. Don't try to jive me or anybody else here about this stuff. Only somebody who has not studied air combat tactics of WWII would have said the nonsense you spewed above.

When it became apparent to the British and Americans that their tactics were out-dated they adopted the basic tactical configuration and doctrine of the LW as laid out by Werner Molders. Those being squadrons broken down into flights of 4 a/c in finger-four formation and utilized team tactics and hit and run attacks (aka BnZ). This doctrine waw further refined by people like Claire Chennault (and through him by Butch O'Hare and Jimmy Thatch) and Hub Zemke.

British Fighter Command abandonded the old "Vic" formations and the Fighting Area Attacks during the Battle Of Britain and like the Americans adopted the basic tactical doctrine of the LW fighters. That enough of a history lesson for you?

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 09:17 PM
its curious all people you mention are american,and none but one was in the european scenary.As for americans who made a genocide with indians and trew the atomic bomb on civilians i understand they like the hit and run but a spit fire is slower than bfs so i doubt they aplied the hit and run strategy and the americans jumped into the war when the nazis were done for.
as for real pilot i dont consider a real pilot mohamed ata for example i consider a real pilot a good pilot even though he hasnt pilot a real plane

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 09:24 PM
<marquee>http://members.chello.se/ven/rbj-anim.gif </marquee>


<h3>Ok, enough.</h3>



http://members.chello.se/ven/sour.jpg




http://members.chello.se/ven/milton.jpg