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XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 10:40 PM
Does the modeling of the 50cal gun seem a bit weak? I unloaded all (8) guns of the P47 on a dead leavel 109 and got nothing but bits and pieces. Eight 50's hit very hard, just ask any train engineer that survived WW2.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 10:40 PM
Does the modeling of the 50cal gun seem a bit weak? I unloaded all (8) guns of the P47 on a dead leavel 109 and got nothing but bits and pieces. Eight 50's hit very hard, just ask any train engineer that survived WW2.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 10:50 PM
Convergence is key, probably not many rounds were hitting the target. If you get anything close to the convergence of those 8 50's it will be ripped apart. Even the 4 30's of the p-39 can anhilate when the target is in the zone.

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XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 10:55 PM
IAMTA wrote:
- Does the modeling of the 50cal gun seem a bit weak?
- I unloaded all (8) guns of the P47 on a dead leavel
- 109 and got nothing but bits and pieces. Eight 50's
- hit very hard, just ask any train engineer that
- survived WW2.


Yeah, but it does absolutely nothing to a tiger tank.

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XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:19 PM
Try a P-40. The P-40's 6 .50 cals hit a lot harder then the P-47's 6.

Gib

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XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:21 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- Try a P-40. The P-40's 6 .50 cals hit a lot harder
- then the P-47's 6.

can't see why it would be programmed like this.

Nikko



Message Edited on 06/30/0312:22AM by Niberto

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:23 PM
GIBBAGE IS CORRECT

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:29 PM
it certainly seems like they are weak at first.

i think the key is convergence. Because the guns are way out in the wings, you've really got to set the convergence lower then you would other aircraft, way down to 200m. It seems to act like 300m on any other aircraft. But if you get in to 200m, with the convergence set to 200m, those 8x .50s will flat out rip anything up with the shortest of bursts.

make sure your firing both sets(they are split in fb), and your opponents will not have much of an aircraft left if they are hit.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:30 PM
RedDeth wrote:
- GIBBAGE IS CORRECT


Yes, especially about the P47's six guns.

You can always rely on a modeller for total accuracy.

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XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:36 PM
OMG stop it!It is undermodelled.It will be fixed with the patch.Period.

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XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:41 PM
Sorry


Gibbage1 wrote:
- Try a P-40. The P-40's 6 .50 cals hit a lot harder
- then the P-47's 6 (EDIT!! 8 guns!!!).
-
-

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XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:42 PM
Author: carguy_
Rank: Over 3000 Postings
Date: 06/29/03 10:36PM




OMG stop it!It is undermodelled.It will be fixed with the patch.Period.


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XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:43 PM
carguy_ wrote:
- OMG stop it!It is undermodelled.It will be fixed
- with the patch.Period.

That's what my friend told me too. I guess people are in a total hurry to get this patch thingy. Oh well.

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:43 PM
commie1 wrote:

- RedDeth wrote:
-- GIBBAGE IS CORRECT
-
-
- Yes, especially about the P47's six guns.
-
- You can always rely on a modeller for total
- accuracy.
-
- Innit? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



But then again...

I`ve read somewhere in a thread that the 0.5 of the P-47 could blow a Tiger-tank into pieces.

Amazing stuff.


Tried that in FB.

Didn`t work.


----> undermodelled, no question. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:59 PM
I'm sure a P-40 could blow any Tiger they met. I've an account of a veteran, in 1942 in China, he met a tiger..or was it a zero..can't remember.

Nikko

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 12:52 AM
Maybe that's why .50s could kill zero tigers.

..

ps) sorry, bad joke.



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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 02:53 AM
GIBBAGE IS INCORRECT !

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 02:56 AM
In addition to what everyone else has said, are you certain you are using all eight machine guns? Four of them are on the cannon punch, and four are on the machinegun punch.

One quirk of the P-47 is that it has a tendancy to swing a bit when you fire all the guns. If you aren't compensating for it, then you can end up missing with most of the rounds.

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 03:17 AM
The .50 cal were the best weapon in the war!
Did you know that Alies actually changed all their anti-tank guns for them???
They were so great that they could even chop to pieces a Tiger tank!!
Sounds stupid right?
It is .
Try the thread about the "P-47 guns vs Tiger tank"


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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 08:16 AM
top armor of tigers can be penetrated by heavy fire from p47 50s

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 09:24 AM
RedDeth wrote:
- top armor of tigers can be penetrated by heavy fire
- from p47 50s
-

Yeah, sure they can...
At a range of 100 odd metres or less and at 0 degrees incidence...
Sheesh...

Go on then. Go into your vertical dive and start firing at 100m. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 09:48 AM
So the .50 cal can actually rip a Tiger apart?! All you have to do is place the Tiger in the convergence and boooom. Convergence is the key /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 09:58 AM
jmmoric wrote:
- So the .50 cal can actually rip a Tiger apart?! All
- you have to do is place the Tiger in the convergence
- and boooom. Convergence is the key

Sure that (no statement needed to that nonsense). /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 02:00 PM
yeah, the patch will fix it, that's what they all say, and then they die!!!!

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XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:24 AM
Convergence is the solution. I have been using the 500m setting. I will experiment with the the closer settings you suggested.. Yes I fire both sets on the stick. Thanks All

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:37 AM
Correct!
Convergence is the key, if you want to destroy a Tiger, you just get your .50s into convergence range, and fire.
Ofcourse after you start shooting you must not move the breake or you will mis him.
It's proven the .50s work as AT weapons(...sure from about 12mm) he-he
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XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 11:45 AM
As an example of what was probably happening to you (convergence problem) - we had a gunnery training session in our squadron the other night that showed to me how you can seem to be hitting your target but are in fact missing 90% of the time.

Our training was done by taking Mk1 Hurricanes (with unlimited ammo) and shooting at late modell FW190s. The poor little 303's can't damage the heavily armoured FW so the FW pilot will just try turns and manouvers while the Hurricane sits behind blazing away at it.

I was hitting (visually) the FW better than 60% of the time. But my gunnery stat was about 12% hits out of about 15000 rounds! The conclusion we came to was that because my convergence was set to 300yds and I was shooting from 150-200 I was probably only hitting with 1 or 2 of the 8 guns most of the time. You still see the "damage" falling off the target though even 7/8 bullets are missing the target.
The problem becomes magnified if your wings (with the guns) are not in the same plane (of angle) as your target's (so one of your wings possibly shoots over the target and one shoots under it).

IAMTA wrote:
- Convergence is the solution. I have been using the
- 500m setting. I will experiment with the the closer
- settings you suggested.. Yes I fire both sets on the
- stick. Thanks All
-
-

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 02:43 PM
P-47 guns weak???
I usually (95%) fly luftwaffe planes. but what i have tested the thunderbolt the guns are great! I can shoot enemy planes down from 500m, really. i just set "MG" convergense to 200m and "cannon" to 500 and its quite easy to snipe enemy planes down even with deflection shots.So they are not weak .(With 109 the best shooting range is 50m)
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XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 02:50 PM
According to a first-hand source (an actual P-47 pilot from WW2) ANY slewing due to firing the machine guns on the P-47 is dead incorrect. The plane should not move at all. He never noted any real vibration (enough to upset the sight or cause "headshake").

This needs to be fixed also. 8 .50's do NOT push a Jug around. I mean, geeze, look at the weight of the thing.



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XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 07:21 PM
- This needs to be fixed also. 8 .50's do NOT push a
- Jug around. I mean, geeze, look at the weight of the
- thing.

agreed, try and keep your wings at the same angle as your targets wings, and fly in a "reletively" straight line for a second to calm down any drift.

And the shaking is out of hand. I can see a 109 with 3 m108 shaking quite a bit, but the effect of machine gunes on something as big as the P47... come on.

S.Jones- I do remember in your post that the 8 50's did almost make the pilot your were talking to almost go deaf when he once fired them all with his canopy open.

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 07:24 PM
Yessir, you remember correctly. I'll post the whole email here in a minute.


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XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 07:46 PM
Dan,

I am more than pleased to try to answer any question I can but please be aware its been 59 years since I flew the 47. Wow, who would believe there could be this much interest in the P47 and its pilots after all this time.

To your queries:

The Jug was heavy - 6 to 7 tons loaded, No the 50's did not cause the optical sites to shake or the plane to yaw.

We always wore a helmet with ox mask/mike and ear phones for communication. It was hot late June in France, We were based near St Lo(spelling) at A13, Patten had broken out, we were providing cover for his advance, would take off never get over a couple thousand feet provide cover expend everything we had and return to the base in about a half hour. It was sweltering in the cockpit, I opened the canopy and took off my helmet. Everything was great till I fired at vehicles half hidden in a wooded area. The roar of those 50's was so loud I thought I had been hit. Needless to say that was the last time I tried that. Should'nt have tried it in the first place, no helmet no communication. Those 50's over the noise of the slip stream and engine was a real surprise.

Can't speak to the flight characteristics of the 47 compared to the 109 or the 190, Never saw a Jerry in the air, was always in the tactical end of things, front line support etc, was on a few escort missions before the invasion but no action. I have had the pleasure of being locked up in the same POW camp with Gabe Gabreski and a few others of distinction and any ace I have ever listened to that flew the Jug would'nt have traded for any other. But you can bet they were biased.

I can speak to the toughness of the Jug, Blown tire on landing, easy to control, hard pull into the tire, pulled me off the paved runway, 3/4 of a ground loop, no damage, new tire and back in business the same hour. Shot at and hit, explosive, probably a 20mm, got the top 1/3 of the vertical stabilizer and rudder. This was over the beachead on the second or third day of the invasion, flew back to England, no control problems, landed normally. I was flying the operation officers brand new D25, Paddle props and all, long mission to southern France, back to England, ran low on gas, landed on a field in south England, gased up, taxied to end of runway for take off, radio advised to clear runway for landing aircraft, I did, it was soft fresh graded dirt, waited till cleared for takeoff, powered up for a turn back on the runway, it did'nt want to move so more power and it started to move and turn but than it started to nose up. I chopped the throtle but too late. The nose up stoped but not before I hit the dirt with the prop. I ran a power check and found no problem or any indication of damage so I took off and returned to my base. Everything nornal on the landing, taxied to the parking area shut down and saw the line crew running to the front of the plane. I had chewed a good 6 inched off those paddles and I swear there WAS NO INDICATION OF ANY PROBLEM.

To say I caught hell for that indescretion is a gross understatement. Maintenance regs required a complete engine change. I dont think Capt Raymond "Knobby" Walsh ever forgave me. Knobby also was the first American to shoot down a German V1, those "buzz Bombs" that were more of a irritation than effective.

Lastly, I took several hits, mostly explosive on a run on antiaircraft positions, hard hits, headed for the base about 20 minutes away, began to overheat and loose power within a few minutes barley able to keep it in the air, lost power, at about 100 feet, deadstick, no flaps landing, really rough terrain, captured immediately, but I'm still alive and well thank you. I'm sure that would not have been the case if I was'nt in a Jug. But than I am Biased.

Sorry I cant personally relate any air to air experience, however, I'm sure you have seen a lot of air to ground footage on any thing that moved on land or sea, and a lot that was stationary. The varables are many on firing air to ground and many more air to air. Watch the P47 air to ground footage for visual effectiveness. Theres no visual referance on air to air except when there are hits. On ground fire you can see how often there are many more misses than hits, firing too soon , too long, many reasons for misses. Could be bad barrels, if the previous pilots had fired too long a burst the riflings could be burnt out causing sloppy convergence. A small percentage of hits was all that was necessary to damage or destroy the average target (not tanks). You were in range for only a few millisecond but that was enough. Short bursts, in range was the rule, shreding is for cabbage not 50s.


***NOTE: Minor editing to preserve the gentleman's privacy.***



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XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 09:56 PM
no s***! You'd be lucky with a light tank. Remember that they were orginally infantry guns!

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 10:09 PM
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XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 03:44 AM
It may be old, but I don't see Bud's plane shaking or yawing in that film.



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XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 06:36 AM
I once knew a guy who shot down 10 zeros in one flight in a Catalina, true story /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .......joke

~aaron white

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 06:41 AM
Ya, and I shot down 10 B-29 in a I-153, (and then I woked up).
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