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carguy_
07-11-2005, 02:11 PM
http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/cloud1.jpg

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/cloud2.jpg

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/cloud3.jpg

This Yak owned me 15 seconds after I noticed he followed me in clouds all the time.

For combat purposes they are....how do you say it...unsuable. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Tooz_69GIAP
07-11-2005, 02:19 PM
Well, the clouds look cool, if you can run em (cept for those ridiculous cotton ball things on the clear weather setting).

But, AI can see through clouds, so if you're fighting AI, then yeah, the clouds are daft, coz they significantly reduce your SA far more than before, but the AI is unaffected.

carguy_
07-11-2005, 03:11 PM
I thought that it was quite obvious I`m not posting bout AI.That Yak was piloted by a human.

VW-IceFire
07-11-2005, 07:17 PM
Yep he's online...you can now see through parts of clouds...usually around the outside. The closer you get inside the denser it gets and the harder it gets to see them till you just can't.

But I find them more real that way. When you fly through a cloud, you can still see somethings...depending on density.

I always thought it was definately a limitation of game engines back in the day where the visibility was shorter than the end of the wing. There still is that level of visibility...but not in the entire cloud.

I run the clouds on an average system with virtually no FPS loss whatsoever. The people experiencing FPS loss are running very old systems or bad drivers or something like that.

MEGILE
07-11-2005, 07:58 PM
pffft... Oleg gave them uber Yaks, Infra Red goggles too? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Stigler_9_JG52
07-11-2005, 10:23 PM
I find it quite ironic that clouds are often the only thing you can see planes against when there are no icons. And not just when they're silhouetted by them, but also IN them.

heloguy
07-11-2005, 11:18 PM
Whine whine whine. My god. I've got an idea. Start, Programs, Ubisoft, Uninstall. That should take care of all your problems. Please do. They don't serve cheese here.

Tater-SW-
07-11-2005, 11:48 PM
It's hardly a whine. Clouds are to air combat what hills and vegitation is to tank combat---terrain. I can't tell you how many stories I have read where the protagonist lived to tell the tail because he "ducked into a cloud to evade that _____ (your fighter name here)."

tater

Slater_51st
07-12-2005, 12:36 AM
Hi,

Personally, I've never had a problem with the clouds in FB. If you duck into a cloud and you can still see the scenery outside, you can't really be "in" the cloud. I personally always get to the nice thick parts of the cloud and I always manage to get away. On many many occasions I've evaded 2-3 people by succesful cloud management.

I have also chased people through clouds, and there are ways to outsmart them and be ready to nab them when they comeout if they fly in a straight line all the way through.

Padlock was not on I hope, as well as the no cockpit option? Both of these can be used to defeat clouds. If this was taken durring the fight, the outside view may also have been active, in which case a tap of the F6 key will automatically lock onto your aircraft.

If any of these was active, he could have easily shot you down in a cloud, so please clarify that they were off http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Not meaning to sound upset but the argument would be pointless if the enemy was using a tracking method like those described above,

S! Slater

TX-Gunslinger
07-12-2005, 02:35 AM
I really hate to ask this, considering the "climate" around here lately, but have you ever spent time in real clouds (say from a passenger airplane) of various types, trying to observe other aircraft, the ground or maybe ships at sea?

For me the new clouds are one of the coolest things about 4.01

I love the "severe" weather now. A flight at 10000 meters with "Thunder" set is incredible. Even more so is the what you find at about 1000 meters in the same environment. The contrast is very immersive to me.

Unteroffizier Georg Genth of 12/JG26 recalling 7 March, 1945 in a FW-190D9:

"I had seen the Tempests above me, I could see them beside me, and new Tempests were approaching from underneath. My only chance lay in evading them until I could reach the cloud layer. So I tore off at top speed towards the cloud, jinking to the left and right with the rudder. This decieved the enemy behind me as to my direction of flight, and the more rapidly I trod on the rudder pedal the more difficult it was for the reflex sights behind me to show the right deflection. As a result, the fire from the Tempests missed to the side, since the pilots relied on the views from their sights."

"The trick worked well. I reached the cloud and attempted a zoom climb, intending to come around in a head-on firing pass at the Tempests, breaking up their attack. This was not to happen, since a Tempest below me could see me in the thin cloud and reported my direction of flight to my pursuers."

"Thus a Tempest was waiting to attack me when I left the cloud, and struck my wounded bird in the tail area. After a sharp blow, which I could feel through the control stick, my elevators failed. It was time to get out. I jettisoned the canopy at about 600km/hr, released my harness, and was sucked from the cockpit of my FW, which was now standing on it's nose. I was hurled upside down along the fuselage, and the fin struck my left arm so hard that it broke it, ripping the sleeve from my leather jacket." (Donald L. Caldwell's 'JG26:Top Guns of the Luftwaffe').

Sounds sort of similar to your Yak experience don't you think? I do lose planes in the thicker portion of the cloud.

4.01 clouds get an A+ from me.

S~

Gun

carguy_
07-12-2005, 04:21 AM
Difficulty settings were all checked except speedbar.

Stigler,
you`re right,I think my plane was silhouetted in the cloud because this Yak pilot jumped me from 300m alt advantage when I was entering a cloud.

First screenshot: you can clearly see the distance between me and Yak is circa 200m.

2nd screenshot: distance 170m

3rd screenhot: distance 130m

Those screenshots were taken in chronological order.As you can see this Yak is catching up on me.In engagement situation I was climbing 10deg angle with 340kph.In this situation I have decided to sacrifice energy for multiple course changes which at those distances I thought would make him lose me.Didn`t work.From the start(1st screenie) to the end(3rd) he had followed every of my maneuvers.


The question is:at which distance should be a plane visible by another plane while they`re both in the asme cloud?

Ofcourse I have never flown through a cloud.However I thought a fog phenomenon resembles being in a cloud pretty good.Throughout 15 winters I have witnessed in my life there was never visibility better than 90m.
Difference between this situation and typical fog?The sun was shining brightly in the mission.Should that make an airplane being in a cloud visile from circa 200m?

So I ask is this possible?If this Yak never saw me from 200m he would never engage me.So what even in the cloud he could follow my every evolution which lead me to stance of a sitting duck?

KG26_Alpha
07-12-2005, 05:10 AM
Hmmm
Using printscreen whilst enemy on "6"
tsk tsk tsk

Of course you took thoses screenines from a track you recorded eh ?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

heloguy
07-12-2005, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
It's hardly a whine. Clouds are to air combat what hills and vegitation is to tank combat---terrain. I can't tell you how many stories I have read where the protagonist lived to tell the tail because he "ducked into a cloud to evade that _____ (your fighter name here)."

tater

I realize that. Clouds have saved me more than once online, and honestly I haven't had any problems yet. Yet, that is.
I also find the clouds in FB to be extremely realistic from what I've seen. After being a crew member for five years in the Marine Corps and spending about 800 hours in the air, I feel they're right on. But, then again, it is a game, and there might be the occasional glitch.
I also feel that on the whole visibility is an issue in the game, but that has to do more with resolution, which is hard to overcome. I can remember it being pretty easy to spot an aircraft from about five miles away, and even being able to identify type from as far a 2 to three. Here, we only see dots from just over five kilometers, which works out to be about 3 and a half miles.
Back to my comment earlier, though, it may have been made in haste, but it irked me a little that this guy gets beat once, and can't believe he was seen in a cloud. A cloud is a translucent object. Even if you are in the middle, light may penetrate to create a shadow on the rest of the cloud below you, depending on the the type of cloud. Also, you can't win them all. Maybe it was a glitch, or maybe the guy got lucky. If this happens ten more times, then complain about it. Otherwise, it's topics like this that scare off the developers from making this forum as it should be.

Chuck_Older
07-12-2005, 07:09 AM
You can see the landscape through one of the clouds in the last pic, so it isn't surprising to me that you were seen, carguy

I've seen many patches of fog through my 33 winters, and I've been in commercial aircraft that flew through clouds.

While on the surface water vapor may seem like water vapor, bear in mind that fog can be darker because underneath the fog is the ground

A cloud can seem bright because the sunlight reflects around but passes through

Since in FB I can't say that cloud types are modelled, getting into the conditions of cloud cover is a moot point (That strato-cumulus is over-modelled!) so It's my suggestion that if you try this again, fly directly through the cloud to it's 'most dense' part, with a team mate following, and see if he loses sight of you then

Personally, offline, I just played a mission I made a few months ago, and I cannot see any enemy AI through the clouds in that mission at all anymore in 4.01, not even a little bit. If they are in that cloud, I can't see them at all

SeaFireLIV
07-12-2005, 07:47 AM
I like the clouds. I`ve noticed that if an enemy plane is quite close to you, he`ll still see you enter cloud and be able to follow until you get into REALLY DEEP cloud.

I was on Warclouds and I focused on a 190 which was about 1000m away, he saw me and, as I thought, he immediately dived into nearby cloud. I went after him, but once he entered the cloud I completely lost him. Never found him again.

It seems the further away you are from someone when they enter cloud, the harder it is to see them. It is not true that every cloud should become an instant brick wall to vision. I think it all depends on distance away at the time he enters cloud.

Another nice thing about this is it`s entirely possible to fly through cloud in close formation and not collide.

crazyivan1970
07-12-2005, 11:20 AM
Couple things to consider...

Is server forcing new clouds? If it does... then yea... kinda wierd that that Yak followed you... if not - then it`s easy to explain http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lets say server is not forcing new clouds... that means user can control it by putting it in medium clouds... so you see new clouds because you did not set it to 0 in your conf.ini and your opponent sees old clouds on medium detail which gives him an advantage.

So, main question remains... what are the server settings clouds wise, what are the Yaks settings clouds wise... and what are your settings http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Stigler_9_JG52
07-12-2005, 02:26 PM
Heloguy, if you have nothing better to do than make asinine comments like that when someone brings up a criticism based on facts and observable phenomenon (as opposed to just blind devotion to a particular title or developer, better known as f*nboi-ism), I'd rather you followed your own little de-installation routine.

I have a VALID POINT. Deal with it. I'm not asking you to agree, or to like it. But feel free to debate, rather than complain that everybody else doesn't just accept what's shoveled at them without questioning it.

Chuck_Older
07-12-2005, 04:15 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

That's very confusing. So you're saying you're carguy?

crazyivan1970
07-12-2005, 04:32 PM
Got me too Chuck.... what are you saying Stig? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif IP check in effect huh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif :d

carguy_
07-12-2005, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
You can see the landscape through one of the clouds in the last pic, so it isn't surprising to me that you were seen, carguy

The last pic is taken 15 seconds before this guy pulls the trigger sending my plane to neverland.It shows you the situation where I,shocked that he followed me,was out of energy,ideas or any will to fight.Actually it shows when I and him are getting out of the cloud.We were in the centre of the huge cloud as pic2 shows.


I've seen many patches of fog through my 33 winters, and I've been in commercial aircraft that flew through clouds.

While on the surface water vapor may seem like water vapor, bear in mind that fog can be darker because underneath the fog is the ground

A cloud can seem bright because the sunlight reflects around but passes through

I guess that if you,a guy with experience,tells me that visibility through cloud at full sunlight,1700m is good enough for him to see me then I have no problem with that.I was surprised that new clouds almost completely lack the hiding factor because the old ones were thin.The only thing visible was your own plane`s wing but now it is possible to see through.Pic1 shows that I`m exiting the cloud and this guy is entering it...although this didn`t keep him from following me as I was changing my course multiple times.


Since in FB I can't say that cloud types are modelled, getting into the conditions of cloud cover is a moot point (That strato-cumulus is over-modelled!) so It's my suggestion that if you try this again, fly directly through the cloud to it's 'most dense' part, with a team mate following, and see if he loses sight of you then

OK I will do that though the track shows clearly I`m in the centre of the cloud making turns and he is following me.


I feel that it is necessary to provide a trk of this so those interested would see the picture.I can also make few more pics from this trk to show this situation more obviously.

As a player who never flown an aircraft I will not object if this is more realistic than old clouds.If this all was made on purpose then there is no problem.I,however,feel really bad that now clouds do not serve any other purpose than video candy.Not after what I saw.
If you ask me I didn`t have an opportunity to follow my enemy through a cloud because I don`t do that.I extend away till I see him.I will try now though.

As for bigger distances some particular objects like cities,airfields,aircraft are clearly visible through clouds.It looks like the program forgot to hide it behind clouds.This is certainly not real and should be fixed.Classic bug.

Chuck_Older
07-12-2005, 05:15 PM
Sometimes you come off really, really arrogant, carguy.

You tell me that in your 15 years, you've seen fog. I reply in my 33 I've seen fog and been in clouds. Now I'm a "guy with experience".

I have no doubt that was not a compliment. I can dish it too, you know? Relax, I'm trying to help. Taking your frustrations out on me fixes exactly nothing

carguy_
07-12-2005, 05:41 PM
I've seen many patches of fog through my 33 winters, and I've been in commercial aircraft that flew through clouds.

According to this quote you have been in commercial aircraft and flown through clouds.Sooo you`re relatively experienced and by your previous reply I conclude you call those clouds realistic.I cannot deny that because I did not experience what you did.

SeaFireLIV
07-13-2005, 05:45 AM
So the major question is: Is Carguy Stigler???

Y`know Chuck has reminded me that all see cloud quite close - FOG. I remember walking towards a valley in the park at 3:45am and noticed a deep fog bank. I could see through this cloud/fog out to the background to some degree. But as I went deeper it became harder to see out. Kinda eerie actually.

Now was it that the fog had just became more thick at that time? Or was the fact that I was in the middle of the fog making it harder for me to see out? Or a combination of both?


You decide.

heloguy
07-13-2005, 06:15 AM
Actually, the question is: is Stigler Carguy? The regression of personalities seems to be from the latter to the former in this case, which leads me to believe the dominant personality to be the creator of this thread...whoa. My head hurts now. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

We still have yet to see an answer to Ivan's questions.

antifreeze
07-13-2005, 06:22 AM
CrazyIvan:
> Is server forcing new clouds? If it does...
> then yea... kinda wierd that that Yak followed
> you... if not - then it`s easy to explain
> Lets say server is not forcing new clouds...
> that means user can control it by putting it
> in medium clouds... so you see new clouds
> because you did not set it to 0 in your
> conf.ini and your opponent sees old clouds on
> medium detail which gives him an advantage.

WHAT? As far as I have always understood, ALL players ALWAYS have the same cloud setting as the host, whether it is specified or not. That applies for both the new/old clouds setting and the 'low/medimum/high' setting. I'd be very disappointed to hear that players can now choose their own individual clouds.

However, just because two players have the clouds set the same doesn't necessarily mean that they see the same thing on-screen. It is possible, I suppose, that the yak was able to follow because his video-card rendered the clouds differently. You perhaps saw yourself covered by the cloud, but if you were to view the same track on his machine, you might actually be able to see yourself in the cloud.
That's not something Oleg can do anything about though.

Stigler_9_JG52
07-13-2005, 09:59 AM
No, carguy is carguy. And Stiglr is Stiglr. And they're two different guys.

I don't play "personality of the day". With one exception, I am Stigler or Stiglr everywhere on the web. I don't need disguises. I get plenty of heat as Stigler, and that's fine. I'll fire away at anybody on any subject and take the fallout. I got nothing to hide.

The one exception came about because "Stiglr" got corrupted on another board and my only recourse was to create a new "name".

carguy_
07-13-2005, 10:19 AM
Antifreeze,I`m sure you`re right as everyone of us can tweak color,gamma,contrast settings to certain extent plus AA/AF/resolution/compression,etc.
This could`ve been why this guy seen me all the time.

Relatively my time with new clouds sums up to 5 hours so it`s obvious I don`t have experience with them nor do I know how useful they`re for combat.I flew two missions in rainy weather and those clouds were the only thing that let me see airplanes from distances bigger than 200m.The dot contrasts with clouds,that`s why.

So at greater distances the dot is clearly visible when the cloud is the backgroud or the object is below it aaaaaand as I see in the trk the distance of 150m is no longer safe for a fully "cloud-submerged" plane to get away.

I`m not kidding.This guy followed my every maneuver and banged me as I had no more options.Maybe somehow by achieving a certain color/gamma/res/aa/af/compression combination one can limit the cloud.Know what I mean?Maybe what I saw(being in the centre of the cloud) he saw different(I`m exiting the cloud).Many possibilities to that.

In my eyees one fact stand out.Old clouds gave me good cover nearly every time.Since flying with new clouds I have been shot down two times while exiting the cloud as the enemy followed me through the whole trajectory I`ve made while flying through the cloud.

Summing it up,I do not like new clouds one bit.I lose ~10FPS and they serve no longer any combat purpose aswell as bomber formations cannot be hidden in those because they`re(as dots)clearly visible from above no difference whether thy`re in a cloud or under it.

Want to hear more?If there are targets flying low I do not scan the air,I scan the ground because the shadows of those targets flying low are clearly visible,unlike the aircraft LODs.

PS.No,currently I have no other account nick on ubi forums and have not used one since 2003.

SUPERAEREO
07-13-2005, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by Antifreeze:
CrazyIvan:
> Is server forcing new clouds? If it does...
> then yea... kinda wierd that that Yak followed
> you... if not - then it`s easy to explain
> Lets say server is not forcing new clouds...
> that means user can control it by putting it
> in medium clouds... so you see new clouds
> because you did not set it to 0 in your
> conf.ini and your opponent sees old clouds on
> medium detail which gives him an advantage.

WHAT? As far as I have always understood, ALL players ALWAYS have the same cloud setting as the host, whether it is specified or not. That applies for both the new/old clouds setting and the 'low/medimum/high' setting. I'd be very disappointed to hear that players can now choose their own individual clouds.

However, just because two players have the clouds set the same doesn't necessarily mean that they see the same thing on-screen. It is possible, I suppose, that the yak was able to follow because his video-card rendered the clouds differently. You perhaps saw yourself covered by the cloud, but if you were to view the same track on his machine, you might actually be able to see yourself in the cloud.
That's not something Oleg can do anything about though.


IF I remember correctly there will still be a difference online between a player who has set "normal cloud" and one who is using "detailed cloud" in the setup.

This setting works (or used to work) irrespective of the host and pretty much like the landscape details, which means that if you have set "detailed clouds" your clouds will look BIGGER than the clouds visible to another player who has his setting on "normal cloud", so while you think you are hidden in cloud the other guy might actually be able to see you because on his screen that bit of cloud simply does not exist, in the same way that trees set on 3 on your PC will not appear on another PC on which the trees are st at 2.

The issue was (relatively) well known from the times of the original IL2 and it has not been corrected since, as far as I know.

Morale: set your clouds to "normal" in the setup screen.


S!

crazyivan1970
07-13-2005, 11:02 AM
No antifreeze, only new clouds setting on server side dictates clouds setup for the client. If new clouds are not forced by the server, client can fly on medium clouds and it`s not the same thing as detailed clouds, be sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LEBillfish
07-13-2005, 11:11 AM
I am not so sure Ai can see through the clouds anymore....Not positive, but not so sure. Lately online I have used the clouds a lot to evade thinking it a live pilot....Quickly finding my pursuer lost and been able to jump him and down him.....

Quite often of late it proves to be AI.....What I find tracks me through clouds are external view servers and what I assume are those "F6'ing"......Yet with AI I have had no trouble at all.

SeaFireLIV
07-13-2005, 01:06 PM
I agree with LEBillfish. Though there`s been no confirmation on whether AI can or can`t see through cloud I have also had no problems with AI in cloud in all my time on Campaign.

I suspect it`s a placebo effect, but it`s strange.

Chuck_Older
07-13-2005, 03:23 PM
carguy-

I misunderstood you, sorry about that

LeadSpitter_
08-13-2005, 02:26 AM
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005363E.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Carguy ^^ use them.

Monty_Thrud
08-13-2005, 05:22 AM
By those screen shots, your on the edges(thinner part) of the cloud, so he should be able to see you...head for the centre to lose the enemy.

LEXX_Luthor
08-16-2005, 07:15 AM
Players see in clouds.
Players can't see in clouds.

We need much bigger clouds to settle the Issue...


Towering cumulus
Sao Paulo, Brazil, March 2002
http://www.chitambo.com/clouds/cloudsimages/low/towercu_saopaulo_mar02.jpg

A towering cumulus is actually just another congestus or calvus cloud. Here, however, I try to show what the real effect of a towering cumulus is. A cloud growing straight up with few or no clouds around it. Hence, it looks like a tower.

~ http://www.chitambo.com/clouds/cloudshtml/towering.html