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View Full Version : P-51 Center of Gravity Without Multiple Tanks..



The_Blue_Devil
08-19-2003, 09:00 AM
Just wondering how Oleg and Crew will manage the stall tendancy of the Mustang without the Ability to change Fuel tanks Manually in FB as you can in so many other games? Either they will make it so she stalls if you handle her in an unbalanced way...or she won;t stall at all/as much as it should on full tanks. Anyone with detailed info on the Mustang's fuel management and stall factor please chime in.

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<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


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The_Blue_Devil
08-19-2003, 09:00 AM
Just wondering how Oleg and Crew will manage the stall tendancy of the Mustang without the Ability to change Fuel tanks Manually in FB as you can in so many other games? Either they will make it so she stalls if you handle her in an unbalanced way...or she won;t stall at all/as much as it should on full tanks. Anyone with detailed info on the Mustang's fuel management and stall factor please chime in.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>

The_Blue_Devil
08-19-2003, 06:07 PM
bump

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<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 06:11 PM
They will do it the same way they picked the roll rates for the P47 and Fw190...


They'll GUESS.



<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 06:14 PM
That's a good question. I assume that it will be modeled to drain the fuel in the fuselage tank first (or second if your caring drop tanks). As for online play they prob will model it so that 75% fuel or less will assume that the fuselage tank is empty. Just my speculation.

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"Altitude, speed, maneuver, fire!"-The "formula of Terror" of Aleksandr Pokryshkin, Three times awarded the rank of Hero of the Soviet Union

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 08:12 PM
From what I've read the Stangs were extremely unstable with full fuse tank to the point of wanting to tumble while performing a roll! Toooooo bad (and frankly suprising) Fuel tank management is not modelled in this sim because it was critical in this plane!

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 08:17 PM
Who is going to 'fly' the Pony with full tanks? A full load would be ~8hrs of flying time. A 1/4 load of fuel will be more than enough for any scenario, so far, in FB.

Still, an interesting question./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 08:21 PM
I have doubts that Oleg will get it right the first time.

25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 08:24 PM
ElAurens wrote:
- They will do it the same way they picked the roll
- rates for the P47 and Fw190...
-
-
- They'll GUESS.
-
-
-
-
- <center><FONT
- color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> <img
- src="http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40h
- ome.gif">
- </img>.
-
- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by
- night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in
- the day that it was vanity:
- but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for
- they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make
- them possible. "
- --T.E. Lawrence
-
-
I'm afraid u'r right/i/smilies/16x16_robot-sad.gif





Message Edited on 08/19/0307:25PM by VMF513_Wolf

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 08:26 PM
I am sure YOU would get it right the first time Buzz...cuz...U DA MAN.....why don't you give flight sim programming a go, and get it right the first time!

mucker

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 08:53 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Who is going to 'fly' the Pony with full tanks? A
- full load would be ~8hrs of flying time. A 1/4 load
- of fuel will be more than enough for any scenario,
- so far, in FB.

If you claim to fly "full real" and use ground starts you will.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Otherwise it really isn't full real, is it.

No combat pilot starts a flight with less than a full tank that I ever heard of.
-
-

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 08:56 PM
mucker

You overdosed on you sarcasm pills today. Back off a little tomorrow.

25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 09:09 PM
I'm sure they'll make it so that it uses all the tanks at once. If you need drop tanks, which you most likely won't need since it had a 1300 mile range without them, they'll use those first.

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 09:39 PM
well a 190 shouldnt be able to outturn the p51d and the p51d should be able to stay on a ki84s 6


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 09:48 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- well a 190 shouldnt be able to outturn the p51d and
- the p51d should be able to stay on a ki84s 6
-
-

-



They were dogs down low, they were made for high allitude where their job of protecting bombers was.

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 09:50 PM
I don't think they were dogs down low. Not as good as they are at high altitude, but not dogs.

25th_Buzz
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The_Blue_Devil
08-19-2003, 10:00 PM
Well the other day I noticed that the F2A/Brewster auto switched tanks every couple of minutes when I was looking down. I hope they allow this in the Mustang, or at least set it up so that she burns the centerline tank first. Manual fuel management and Self-Sealing tanks would be VERY WELCOME in this sim.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 10:07 PM
I know in CFS we intentionally went into DF servers with @ 5% fuel since the model was very unstable with a full tank. I am sure that even if switching tanks manually is not an option it will be modeled as correctly as possible for this sim. With all ther complaints about FMs and suc..and you know you can never please all the people..I challenge these guys to 1. Find better FMs in another sim. and 2. Prove that they are modeled wrong.... the bottom line is we dont know. No e of us flew warbirds we are just affectianadoes living out a fantasy on our computers. I like the current FMs. I liked the old ones..problems and all,,,At thier worse they were still better than all the rest. I think the new ones are better than the old ones though.......my 2 cents..

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

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XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 10:17 PM
Bear,

The reason I made my comment on doubting it will be right the first time. Is not because I think I can do it better. That's rediculous. It's because I can't think of one plane that hasn't had it's FM changes 2-3 times already. I wouldn't expect the P-51 to be any different. I hope i'm wrong though. An accurate P-51 would be nice.

25th_Buzz
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The_Blue_Devil
08-19-2003, 10:55 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- I know in CFS we intentionally went into DF servers
- with @ 5% fuel since the model was very unstable
- with a full tank. I am sure that even if switching
- tanks manually is not an option it will be modeled
- as correctly as possible for this sim. With all ther
- complaints about FMs and suc..and you know you can
- never please all the people..I challenge these guys
- to 1. Find better FMs in another sim. and 2. Prove
- that they are modeled wrong.... the bottom line is
- we dont know. No e of us flew warbirds we are just
- affectianadoes living out a fantasy on our
- computers. I like the current FMs. I liked the old
- ones..problems and all,,,At thier worse they were
- still better than all the rest. I think the new ones
- are better than the old ones though.......my 2
- cents..
-
I agree Bear this is the best flight sim out, however eyecandy and dynamic flight models/damage models mean little if the basic part FM, i.e. stall and roll characteristics are quarky. In AH, yes I admit to flying AH long ago, when we flew Mustangs on escort duty we had to drain the centerline first if not the DT's, otherwise the Musty would be prone to stalls and or rolls in hard manuevers. They also had the 500mph flaps included..making the Musty a BnZ queen.
I am just worried that in lacking the ability to change the center of gravity manually will result in the Mustang being stall and spin happy period.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 11:52 PM
C'mon guys. The Pony had the fuselage tank installed to milk every ounce of range out of it.

8th AF P-51's flew the entire war from England. After takeoff it was drained as much as possible. If it was a very very long flight, more fuel would be retained in it to ensure enough for the return after dropping tanks. If it was a shorter trip, all of it could be drained. The chance of encountering enemy A/C with a full fuselage tank was remote.

The cg was moved far enough forward for normal operations after about 1/2 of the tank was used. The plane could be fought under those circumstances. The main problem was that a 3 G turn would swiftly reef into a 5 G unless back pressure on the stick was used.

To force P-51's to fly and fight with a CG problem wouldn't be right, unless it was a scenario where the LW jumped them over the channel or something. Otherwise, the Mustang entered the range circles of LW fighters with a cg adequate for combat.

Brit P-51's mostly did not have a fuselage tank. Allison engined P-51's also didn't have a fuselage tank.

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 12:02 AM
Just tossing this in the air ...

If set to 100% fuel make the Pony tail heavy and very "squirrely" ...

if set to 75% fuel make it somewhat more stable ...

if set to 50% fuel make it stable ...

if set to 25% fuel make it slightly nose heavy and stable ..

if set to 0% fuel make it to an airfield as soon as possible!

ak!


Falcon

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Message Edited on 08/19/0311:04PM by Falcon_41

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 01:59 AM
Iris47 wrote:
-
- MiloMorai wrote:
-- Who is going to 'fly' the Pony with full tanks? A
-- full load would be ~8hrs of flying time. A 1/4 load
-- of fuel will be more than enough for any scenario,
-- so far, in FB.
-
- If you claim to fly "full real" and use ground
- starts you will./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
-
- Otherwise it really isn't full real, is it.
-
-
- No combat pilot starts a flight with less than a
- full tank that I ever heard of.
-

Iris, you seem a little confused by the words "full real". This has nothing to do with an a/c's fuel load.

Iris, a 1/4 fuel in the P-51 is 254.5 L and that is good for ~2 hrs of flight time. The Fw190 held 525 L(normal) of fuel. Who in FB flies the Fw with full tanks, especially in a DF room? I bet even co-ops, a full tank of fuel is not loaded.

I look forward to combat with you in a fully fueled Pony./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif My 1/2 loaded Dora will have you a smoking hole in the ground in no time.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

The_Blue_Devil
08-20-2003, 02:11 AM
Cut the P*ssing contest this is a serious thread..Please.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com ( <A HREF=)" target=_blank>http://www.361stvfg.com</a> </center>

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 02:47 AM
Buzz,

My sarcasm dosage is just fine Buzzaroni. You should have a face to face with Oleg and point out where in the programming code he went wrong so he can correct it...I am sure he would much appreciate it. I'm in total agreement with Bearcat99....

mucker

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 02:53 AM
I explained myself mucker. You don't like my explanation? Tough! Go muck up another thread.

25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 03:07 AM
Your explanation is fine Buzz...I'm just getting tired of reading all of the threads bashing Oleg..... "Oleg needs to do this", "Oleg won't get it right the first time...", "How did Oleg not see this?"

Oleg has done masterful work....$40 game, free patch (both top notch) What is there really to complain about? Really?

mucker

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 03:59 AM
Probably the first time you've heard me say it though. Usually I get called a brown nose. I'm just being realistic this time. I hope he does get it right the first time. It's the only plane i'm really waiting for.

25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 05:55 AM
Hey Buzz I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I just meant that we dont know and a lot of the plane performance was dependent upon the skill of the pilot. Hey mucker...your should change your name to mucker fother....LOL.... no dis intended..it just cracked me up...mucker fother...LMAO..... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 06:15 AM
georgeo76 wrote:
- That's a good question. I assume that it will be
- modeled to drain the fuel in the fuselage tank first
- (or second if your caring drop tanks).

Actually, no drop tanks or WITH drop tanks they would use fule from the centerline fuselage tank FIRST! Not all of it, but enough to get it down to the point where the stability problem would be gone.. I dont recal the exact number, but 87 gallons seems to ring a bell? Anyway, the larger centerline fuselage tank on the D model is what caused the stability problem.


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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 06:25 AM
I hear what you're saying Buzz, sorry I lost my cool. The 51 will be a great addition, and, the more planes the better is how I feel! That is what is so cool about simulation...you can fly an F4U against an Yak, etc.,etc....

Hey Bearcat, you're one cool mucker fother! Hmmmm...I kind of like that....

mucker

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 11:09 AM
I read a story in one of my Flight Journal mags. The pilots said they used the drop tanks first, when droped they went the the tank behind the cockpit to drain it. With that tank full it made the P-51 unstable in maneuvering. had a tendency to snap roll on them, much like the Yak 3 does now. They said they used diving attacks (ie: BnZ) untill most of the fuel in the fuselage was burned off. So who knows how the fuel load will be modeled in this game. The B/C models were more stable with the fuel load than the D models. I have flown it in AI form and if you get frisky with it it snap rolls real quick. The flyable version will prolly be different. Just hope the 6 50cals are modeled more like the P-40 and not the P-47. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 12:14 PM
Lavochkin_Kid wrote:
- I read a story in one of my Flight Journal mags.
- The pilots said they used the drop tanks first, when
- droped they went the the tank behind the cockpit to
- drain it. With that tank full it made the P-51
- unstable in maneuvering.
-

The fuselage tank was used first, til there was 25-30 gal left. Drop tanks were left on til dry or had to be dropped because of combat.

--------

Was there more than 1 fuselage tank in the P-51? Sounds like it when sees centreline fuselage tank mentioned.


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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 03:53 PM
IIRC (and I could recall wrong), it had a collecting tank ahead of the pile-it, just like the Spit. Someone got the docs at hand or in more recent memory?

The infamous fuselage tank was added later in some (probably most) P51Ds for longer legs.

Cheers,
Fred


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