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NoSystem
08-28-2005, 06:58 PM
To start with, let me make it clear that I am not an experienced or serious sim pilot. However, I am not a complete newbie and was wondering if anyone else had noticed this "problem". Whenever I fly a mission in a P51, it seems the plane cannot take a hit without being disabled--"Engine Inoperable", "Machine Gun Jammed", etc, etc, etc, over and over again. I have much better luck with Corsairs, P38's, Sturmoviks. Any feedback?

SeaNorris
08-28-2005, 07:21 PM
P-51's suck, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif stay in the Spits/La/Yak/P-40/39/63/47/190/109 etc

NorrisMcWhirter
08-28-2005, 07:28 PM
To start with, let me make it clear that I am not an experienced or serious sim pilot....


I stopped reading after that bit

Ta,
Norris

danjama
08-28-2005, 07:39 PM
Norris your such a bully! P51 is undermodelled ask oleg! Stick with Yaks and 190's

NorrisMcWhirter
08-28-2005, 07:42 PM
Well, if he's getting hit by mk108s or a bagfull of 151/20s, it's hardly surprising he's losing controls http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

Bearcat99
08-28-2005, 09:09 PM
While I do think the P-51 is a tad too slow and too fragile... you had the wings fall off yet? I still fly it. I like the P-51 and the P-51 in this sim though IMO flawed is still the best one in any sim so... I fly it. I want to enjoy the sim not rack up points online so I fly what I like... regardless. I do think the MkIII Mustang that we have now should be the way the normal ones are modeled though (B/C).... as far as sturdiness and speed and the MkIII should be a bit faster as well.... I think even the 50s seem different to me in the MkIII. Or so it seems to me...... but as I said... I still like it.

ClnlSandersLite
08-28-2005, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Well, if he's getting hit by mk108s or a bagfull of 151/20s, it's hardly surprising he's losing controls http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

How'd you know he was getting hit? You didn't read past the first sentance...

arcadeace
08-28-2005, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by NoSystem:
To start with, let me make it clear that I am not an experienced or serious sim pilot. However, I am not a complete newbie and was wondering if anyone else had noticed this "problem". Whenever I fly a mission in a P51, it seems the plane cannot take a hit without being disabled--"Engine Inoperable", "Machine Gun Jammed", etc, etc, etc, over and over again. I have much better luck with Corsairs, P38's, Sturmoviks. Any feedback?

I€ve learned long ago never fly them against any planes with rear firing guns, one ping and the engines modeled in this sim go kaput. And in the midst of dogfights, never allow yourself even close to head-on fire. It€s a fun and capable plane but pick and play challenges wisely.

fordfan25
08-28-2005, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by ClnlSandersLite:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Well, if he's getting hit by mk108s or a bagfull of 151/20s, it's hardly surprising he's losing controls http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

How'd you know he was getting hit? You didn't read past the first sentance... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


LMAO http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Badsight.
08-28-2005, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
or a bagfull of 151/20s, it's hardly surprising he's losing controls http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif & does it need a bagfull ?

theres no reason for the P-51 to have such a Glass Jaw as much as it does

mockery doesnt help the issue

FritzGryphon
08-29-2005, 12:05 AM
I'm pretty sure the Allison is the weakest engine in the game.

From point blanc, only takes 1-2 M2 bullets to flame/stop it. 109s are 2-4, Yaks 4-6, etc.

AnaK774
08-29-2005, 12:41 AM
Well, as game has no coolant leaks modelled,
most inline engines seem bit too fragile for
light hits in engine compartment...
Guess thats the way its compensated

NorrisMcWhirter
08-29-2005, 03:35 AM
"To start with, let me make it clear" & "Fragile P51"; it's quite obvious, even to the untrained eye http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, that this will be a recipe for:

a. It doesn't take many hits.
b. The wings fall off [when I yank the stick back at 700kmh]

In my experience, the P51 takes as many hits as the Spit (4-6 151/20s) does before going down and you don't hear people whining about the Spit being too weak; plus, that fits with the expected average.

As to the wings falling off, tell Oleg about it - he can always reduce the elevator response to something realistic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

Tvrdi
08-29-2005, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by NoSystem:
To start with, let me make it clear that I am not an experienced or serious sim pilot. However, I am not a complete newbie and was wondering if anyone else had noticed this "problem". Whenever I fly a mission in a P51, it seems the plane cannot take a hit without being disabled--"Engine Inoperable", "Machine Gun Jammed", etc, etc, etc, over and over again. I have much better luck with Corsairs, P38's, Sturmoviks. Any feedback?

well partialy I can agree with you...DM and FM isnt great in all the planes....as Oleg stated some planes are really overmodeled or undermodeled by 15%....thats how it is...I would say Bfs and Spits, P39s 63s,P38s, some vvs planes, are little bit overmodelled and FW190As and mustangs, maybe P47s are a little bit undermodelled...as Bearcat said regarding mustang...that "wings fall off" bug....its really a bug even Oleg stated its modelled historically correct, but then its somehow random weakness of a single plane which wasnt present only in mustangs..wher are the other weaknesess in other planes??...other thing is FW190 forward view...dou you remember gunsight droping bug in Lw planes which is corrected..thers so many bugs in this sim but still its a best sim on the market...Im not surprised servers are full of spits and bfs....almost nowhere p47s mustangs Fws(Antons)....most of the ppl here wont fly his favourite but the "15% planes"...thats sad...I dont care...Ill take my favourite P47d or FW190A6....thats why i asked for P47s vs Fw190As server...its really sad that with all those one-side whiners we cant get the honest post with all the bigger bugs (for all planes) listed here....how come?

P.S.- in betas (pre 4.01) you could easily kil anything in BnZ with p47 or Fw190As....and escape with good E...thats how it should be IMHO...its obvious that the target is to hav a million of players flyin like maniacs down low..turning and turning...and a nice gameplay feature that you can catch anything in anything...what a cra*

cheers

HayateAce
08-29-2005, 06:20 AM
Nosystem,

Don't mind Chip McSquirter. He has some personal issues that go well beyond flight simming.

Chip chip chip

Monson74
08-29-2005, 08:09 AM
The 51 WAS fragile in real life - especially the engine. Try not to get shot & turn those 2x3 .50s on a 109 - it will fall apart too even though the .50s are synced http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kuna15
08-29-2005, 08:36 AM
In my experience almost every time I get hit, I am going down one way or the other if I continue fight. So conclusion is simple -- I try to not receive hits.

Versus experienced players, I will not last long in damaged plane so only option is to run if I can (I try to run every time when I see that is possible)

That scenario works in every plane, no matter how sturdy it is, it's performance is somewhat crippled. About P-51s specifically, about DM I would say that it's engine is really weak. Maybe the weakest in game. MG131s are more than enough to bring it down.

tigertalon
08-29-2005, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
In my experience, the P51 takes as many hits as the Spit (4-6 151/20s) does before going down and you don't hear people whining about the Spit being too weak;


Hi m8,

just for fun, what happened to me on UKD1 on one of Normandy maps:

I poured so many 20mms into a spit, that I discharged outer Mg151/20 (and of course half of inner supply) and after some more 20mm hits, he finally lost a wing. It was my first engagement after I joined, so I checked gunstat. It said 10% (but included also mg fire). So, assuming mg and cannon hit percentage were roughly the same, I used 500 20mm shells on him, approx. 50 of them hitting!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif before he finally went down. Even he was laughing at what happened.

tigertalon
08-29-2005, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
In my experience almost every time I get hit, I am going down one way or the other if I continue fight. So conclusion is simple -- I try to not receive hits.

U flyin Ki43s mostly? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Try Fw190. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Monson74
08-29-2005, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
While I do think the P-51 is a tad too slow and too fragile... you had the wings fall off yet? I still fly it. I like the P-51 and the P-51 in this sim though IMO flawed is still the best one in any sim so... I fly it. I want to enjoy the sim not rack up points online so I fly what I like... regardless. I do think the MkIII Mustang that we have now should be the way the normal ones are modeled though (B/C).... as far as sturdiness and speed and the MkIII should be a bit faster as well.... I think even the 50s seem different to me in the MkIII. Or so it seems to me...... but as I said... I still like it.

The 51 is not too slow - it goes almost 580 km/h at SL like it should. It's pretty much on par with the Dora & the Hayate only it has poor acceleration due to less HP. But once up & running it's fast all right & E-bleeding is not that bad. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

JG7_Rall
08-29-2005, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
In my experience almost every time I get hit, I am going down one way or the other if I continue fight. So conclusion is simple -- I try to not receive hits.

U flyin Ki43s mostly? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Try Fw190. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


except for when you get a pin ***** sized hole in the wing which makes you do an insta-roll to either side without full opposite aileron and kills your speed too

F19_Ob
08-29-2005, 10:49 AM
Liquidcooled engines should be fragile and sometimes a single bullet was enough.
However a 109 engine shouldn't be able to take more than a p51. I haven't made that comparison yet.
I've occasionally flown the p51 and it doesn't worry me asmuch as the p47.
P47 could take enourmous ammounts of damage, and it wasn't too unusual for them to take 20mm hits in the engine and still fly home over the channel.

In the sim though a couple of 20mm in the tail cuts the fuelage in half.
Still like it though.
I guess one have to take the good with her bad and dont expect too much.

tigertalon
08-29-2005, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
In my experience almost every time I get hit, I am going down one way or the other if I continue fight. So conclusion is simple -- I try to not receive hits.

U flyin Ki43s mostly? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Try Fw190. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


except for when you get a pin ***** sized hole in the wing which makes you do an insta-roll to either side without full opposite aileron and kills your speed too </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, that nasty Fw190 "winghit bug" is still around... on yaks aswell. Anyway, it is easy to cripple Fw190, no doubt on that. But it is VERY HARD to take it down, to finish the job. Keeping in mind Fw190 has excellent elevator response (also negative), you can keep throwing off your persuers aim quite effectively for quite some time, even with winghit. It is almost impossible to set Fw ablaze, engine is very durable, and you have to be lucky-shot to take a wing off. Real dangers are only PKs and controll loss.

NorrisMcWhirter
08-29-2005, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Nosystem,

Don't mind Chip McSquirter. He has some personal issues that go well beyond flight simming.

Chip chip chip

Sgt - you still never told me how it felt to be on ...sorry, CONTRIBUTE to being on, the losing side.

Never mind, eh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

NorrisMcWhirter
08-29-2005, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Nosystem,

Don't mind Chip McSquirter. He has some personal issues that go well beyond flight simming.

Chip chip chip

Chip?

YAOI!

Ta,
Norris

PBNA-Boosher
08-29-2005, 01:28 PM
THe P-51 had and always will have a glass jaw. The Merlin engine could not take even the slightest of hits without seizing up.

You're best off not getting hit at all.

lrrp22
08-29-2005, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
THe P-51 had and always will have a glass jaw. The Merlin engine could not take even the slightest of hits without seizing up.

You're best off not getting hit at all.

The cooling system, like all inline motors, couldn't take any kind of damage. The engine itself (and cooling system) shouldn't be any more fragile than those of the Spitfire/109/D-9/Yak/Hurricane, etc. The P-51's engine was only fragile when compared to the radials common in the USAAF/USN.

luftluuver
08-29-2005, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Monson74:
The 51 WAS fragile in real life - especially the engine.
The P-51 fragile IRL?

Tell that to the pilots that flew the A-36. 23,373 combat sorties with only 177 lost due to enemy action (air and ground). That is 132 sorties per a/c lost.

Weak wings?

A 500mph dive with 2 500lb bombs under the wing.

SnapdLikeAMutha
08-29-2005, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Nosystem,

Don't mind Chip McSquirter. He has some personal issues that go well beyond flight simming.

Chip chip chip

Chip?

YAOI!

Ta,
Norris </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.ukstudentlife.com/Travel/Tours/Company/TheOriginalTour/FishAndChips.jpg

PBNA-Boosher
08-29-2005, 02:24 PM
Luftluver, the P-51 was fragile in the nose. As stated by many here, the Merlin engine as well as many other liquid cooled engines could not take damage. Taking a cannon hit to the engine is like throwing a hand grenade in Merlin. The wings, the fuselage, even pilot protection may have been strong, and hey, that's great, but the engine was the weakness of the airplane.

SnapdLikeAMutha
08-29-2005, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
Luftluver, the P-51 was fragile in the nose. As stated by many here, the Merlin engine as well as many other liquid cooled engines could not take damage. Taking a cannon hit to the engine is like throwing a hand grenade in Merlin. The wings, the fuselage, even pilot protection may have been strong, and hey, that's great, but the engine was the weakness of the airplane.

Yep, by the same token the Merlin-engined Mossie was considered more vulnerable than the Hercules-engined Beaufighter on low-level anti-shipping strikes.

lrrp22
08-29-2005, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
Luftluver, the P-51 was fragile in the nose. As stated by many here, the Merlin engine as well as many other liquid cooled engines could not take damage. Taking a cannon hit to the engine is like throwing a hand grenade in Merlin. The wings, the fuselage, even pilot protection may have been strong, and hey, that's great, but the engine was the weakness of the airplane.

Boosher,

That's true, but like I said, that is true of all inline/water-cooled engines- not just the Mustang's which is what many here believe should be the case.

In game, a hit to the P-51's nose shouldn't do any more damage than the same hit would do to a Spitfire or 109. It does, though. Any hit to the Mustang's nose noramlly results in an instantly dead engine. That doesn't seem to be the case with the Spitfire, and is definitely not the case with the 109.

FritzGryphon
08-29-2005, 03:15 PM
I don't know, the Spit is pretty weak too.

But you may have a point, the engines seem to get magically more or less durable, depending on what plane they're in. For example, the M-105 engine takes fewer hits to flame/stop in Yak, than it does in P-40E field mod.

Also, though the cooling system on inline engine was vulnerable, it ought not cause the insta-fire we get ingame (usually followed by the 'kaboom' a few seconds later). For example, I've read of 109E losing all it's coolant, and still making it across the channel, then belly landing, before it lit on fire.

Kuna15
08-29-2005, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
In my experience almost every time I get hit, I am going down one way or the other if I continue fight. So conclusion is simple -- I try to not receive hits.

U flyin Ki43s mostly? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Try Fw190. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I did not fly too much KI-43 after 4.01. Online I have never played with Oscar seriously. I gave it a few runs and that's it. About FW-190, you got a point there IMO; on UK_dedicated I had nice run while in FW-190s (kill/death ratio).

In few times that I've been killed in FW-190 were mostly due to my own stupidity (manoeuvring with already damaged plane on deck, running onto friendly AA while taxiing etc.).

VW-IceFire
08-29-2005, 03:40 PM
Mustang has a glass nose. Its quite simply the vulnerability of a very tightly fitted Packard Merlin that makes the plane vulnerable.

By the way, the P-51B through D were ranked as one of the worst Fighter-Bombers in the USAAF because of this.

Any plane that takes a couple of hits is going to start getting gun jammed, fuel tank leak, and engine inoperable messages. Doesn't matter what it is. With a superb machine like the P-51, try and not be hit...getting hit a couple of times usually means its time to start thinking about RTB. In any plane really...

Kocur_
08-29-2005, 04:18 PM
There is something wrong with modelling the same engine in different planes. Is it me or Merlin in Spitfire can run veeery long with smoke trail behind the plane? Ive neved had/seen that on P-51.

P-51 was quite unusual with its control system: forces on stick were decreasing with increase of speed. Even after they attached balast under the stick, pilot still could deflect it easy, sometimes too easy...If all planes are modelled to lose wings at 14g, P-51 with its control system is No1 candidate to experience this. Didnt check in 4.01 but in 3.04 I could make Bf-109 lose wings by pulling stick hard in fast dive. It was neg. trimmed to maximum of course http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Badsight.
08-29-2005, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
In my experience, the P51 takes as many hits as the Spit (4-6 151/20s) does before going down and you don't hear people whining about the Spit being too weak; plus, that fits with the expected average. that , in no way explains why the Mustangs motor is so easy to kill

the Allison can be stopped from the most lucky deflection hits , & id bet its eaiser to kill than the weak merlin in the Spitfire

arcadeace
08-29-2005, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by lrrp22:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
Luftluver, the P-51 was fragile in the nose. As stated by many here, the Merlin engine as well as many other liquid cooled engines could not take damage. Taking a cannon hit to the engine is like throwing a hand grenade in Merlin. The wings, the fuselage, even pilot protection may have been strong, and hey, that's great, but the engine was the weakness of the airplane.

Boosher,

That's true, but like I said, that is true of all inline/water-cooled engines- not just the Mustang's which is what many here believe should be the case.

In game, a hit to the P-51's nose shouldn't do any more damage than the same hit would do to a Spitfire or 109. It does, though. Any hit to the Mustang's nose noramlly results in an instantly dead engine. That doesn't seem to be the case with the Spitfire, and is definitely not the case with the 109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are spot on Irrp. There should not be much difference, if any... but there is. It comes down to how these a/c are modeled. I€ve enjoyed the Spit almost as much as the Mustang and the amount of occasions the Mustang€s engine stopped with just 1 hit, has far surpassed the Spit€s.

With some folks here I think there€s underlying nationalism and its too bad. I don€t care much for Ameriwhiners and there are plenty of them, but with this issue I would hope Oleg understands its a legitimate shortcoming in DM of which he can only improve upon

carguy_
08-29-2005, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by lrrp22:
In game, a hit to the P-51's nose shouldn't do any more damage than the same hit would do to a Spitfire or 109. It does, though. Any hit to the Mustang's nose noramlly results in an instantly dead engine. That doesn't seem to be the case with the Spitfire, and is definitely not the case with the 109.

Uhuh,the P51 engine stops almost immediately when hit,although there are always anomalies like the MK108 damage.Ingame Merlin suffers from side hits.Majority of times I hit P51 in the upper part of the nose where windshield is.It results in grey smoke,also when hit from beneath.

ME109 DM seems to be a bit more complicated.
Engine hit will result in grey smoke mostly but a good 12mm hit leaves it stopped.
There are also some other possibilities like damaged Kommandogerat,damaged throttle.


IMO there is no comparement between P47,109,P51 and Spitfire engine DM.
The last one takes few 20mm rounds without being damaged very often.Lighter caliber causes mostly grey smoke.

Xiolablu3
08-29-2005, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
While I do think the P-51 is a tad too slow and too fragile... you had the wings fall off yet?


I am always breaking the wings off ALL the planes in a dive. Its hard to slow yourself down when u are diving on people. Combat flaps, radiator open, throttle to 0%, I still end up flying over 700kph often.

I know that 'crack' sound very well, next minute I'm spinning towards the ground minus one wing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

fordfan25
08-29-2005, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
"To start with, let me make it clear" & "Fragile P51"; it's quite obvious, even to the untrained eye http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, that this will be a recipe for:

a. It doesn't take many hits.
b. The wings fall off [when I yank the stick back at 700kmh]

In my experience, the P51 takes as many hits as the Spit (4-6 151/20s) does before going down and you don't hear people whining about the Spit being too weak; plus, that fits with the expected average.

As to the wings falling off, tell Oleg about it - he can always reduce the elevator response to something realistic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

or he can relize that the 51 was a tough built fighter unlike a woodn la-7 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
08-30-2005, 09:33 AM
Or the delta wood(en) wonder, the Lagg3. Which seems to be overlooked.

The P51 has a water cooled engine and I agree that it shouldn't seize on sight but that it should be more vunerable than any radial engined aircraft.

If someone objective comes up with a test showing that the P51 engine is way more vunerable than, say, the 109 lump then I'll buy it. Otherwise, it's just speculation.

Ta,
Norris

NorrisMcWhirter
08-30-2005, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by SnapdLikeAMutha:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Nosystem,

Don't mind Chip McSquirter. He has some personal issues that go well beyond flight simming.

Chip chip chip

Chip?

YAOI!

Ta,
Norris </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.ukstudentlife.com/Travel/Tours/Company/TheOriginalTour/FishAndChips.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You want to watch what you're eating - it'll make you obese http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

fighter_966
09-15-2005, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
"To start with, let me make it clear" & "Fragile P51"; it's quite obvious, even to the untrained eye http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, that this will be a recipe for:

a. It doesn't take many hits.
b. The wings fall off [when I yank the stick back at 700kmh]

In my experience, the P51 takes as many hits as the Spit (4-6 151/20s) does before going down and you don't hear people whining about the Spit being too weak; plus, that fits with the expected average.

As to the wings falling off, tell Oleg about it - he can always reduce the elevator response to something realistic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris
Also germans noticed how easily P51 caught fire
due its Merlin engine so Im not convinced that
its DM is wrong but I agree with you that the FM
is bit wrongmodelled

luftluuver
09-15-2005, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by fighter_966:
Also germans noticed how easily P51 caught fire
due its Merlin engine so Im not convinced that
its DM is wrong but I agree with you that the FM
is bit wrongmodelled

Interesting. Did the Germans say the same about the Spitfire? Just curious.

Stanger_361st
09-15-2005, 08:14 AM
P-51 I fly mostly. Jug is the other. DM on P-51 is ok with me. From all I read from real pilots the DM seems right. Some Authors joked around and was afraid of the so called (golden beebie). They wonder if some lucky infantry with a rifle on one shot would take them down.
Book by Norman "Bud" Fortier.
Now the P-47 DM that is another thread.

WOLFMondo
09-15-2005, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by fighter_966:

Also germans noticed how easily P51 caught fire
due its Merlin engine so Im not convinced that
its DM is wrong but I agree with you that the FM
is bit wrongmodelled

Why would the Merlin catch fire more than any other engine? Most gun camera film i've ever seen involves 2 things, either a wing comes off or the plane burns. It seems pretty common with any plane with an internal combustion enginehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

geetarman
09-15-2005, 11:56 AM
The P-51's engine is a bit weak, but it's the least of it's problems. If I get shot down, I attribute it to somehting I did wrong and deal with it. I try not to get hit at all.

VW-IceFire
09-15-2005, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
There is something wrong with modelling the same engine in different planes. Is it me or Merlin in Spitfire can run veeery long with smoke trail behind the plane? Ive neved had/seen that on P-51.

P-51 was quite unusual with its control system: forces on stick were decreasing with increase of speed. Even after they attached balast under the stick, pilot still could deflect it easy, sometimes too easy...If all planes are modelled to lose wings at 14g, P-51 with its control system is No1 candidate to experience this. Didnt check in 4.01 but in 3.04 I could make Bf-109 lose wings by pulling stick hard in fast dive. It was neg. trimmed to maximum of course http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Naa I've flown 40 or 50kph with the thin black oil trail behind a Spitfire IX and a P-51C Mustang and both made it back just in time to land before the engine died.

The two are similar. I think the difference is this:
1) Critical hit to a Merlin on a Spitfire usually involves reving the engine all the way up with no throttle control and then it stops
2) Critical hit to a Merlin on a Mustang frequently means the engine just stops in place.

I don't know if Oleg models some of the components of the engine inside or if its just the engine block that counts as a hit area...but maybe there is something about the installation of the engine in the aircraft rather than the DM itself.

Speculation.

horseback
09-15-2005, 03:54 PM
If the Mustang flamed easily, it wasn't due to the engine; the Mustang simply carried a lot more fuel than most aircraft, but by the time it entered combat, most if not all of the fuel it carried was in its wing tanks. Bounce from above, hit the wing roots hard, and those tanks should spray a wonderfully flammable haze...just like, say the LaGG or Yak.

The Spit, by contrast, had its fuel tank right in front of the pilot, so that he could easily see that his plane was on fire, and bail out before anything untoward happened, at least theoretically.

If anything, the Mustang should be hardier than a Spitfire. It's larger, comparatively a bit on the overengineered side as far as structural strength, and certainly from the rear angles, gives the opposition a lot less critical components to shoot at spread over a wider area. The sensitive areas are on the underside, because the preferred aerial attack angle was from above and behind, and therefore a bit harder to get at in aerial combat, and more vulnerable when attacking a ground target.

I was under the impression that Oleg assigns 'engine packages' for DM, so the whole Mustang fragility issue, compared to Merlin engined Spits and Hurricanes, seems a bit as though the Pony is being singled out.

cheers

horseback

VW-IceFire
09-15-2005, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by horseback:
If the Mustang flamed easily, it wasn't due to the engine; the Mustang simply carried a lot more fuel than most aircraft, but by the time it entered combat, most if not all of the fuel it carried was in its wing tanks. Bounce from above, hit the wing roots hard, and those tanks should spray a wonderfully flammable haze...just like, say the LaGG or Yak.

The Spit, by contrast, had its fuel tank right in front of the pilot, so that he could easily see that his plane was on fire, and bail out before anything untoward happened, at least theoretically.

If anything, the Mustang should be hardier than a Spitfire. It's larger, comparatively a bit on the overengineered side as far as structural strength, and certainly from the rear angles, gives the opposition a lot less critical components to shoot at spread over a wider area. The sensitive areas are on the underside, because the preferred aerial attack angle was from above and behind, and therefore a bit harder to get at in aerial combat, and more vulnerable when attacking a ground target.

I was under the impression that Oleg assigns 'engine packages' for DM, so the whole Mustang fragility issue, compared to Merlin engined Spits and Hurricanes, seems a bit as though the Pony is being singled out.

cheers

horseback
Having shot at both Spitfires and Mustangs...I find the Mustang, in certain places, to be much more capable of withstanding hits than the Spitfire.

For the Mustang, its wings, tail, and main fuselage are fairly hardy. Despite having fuel tanks all over the place. Its just the engine.

The Spitfire is more even across the whole of the plane.

NorrisMcWhirter
09-15-2005, 04:11 PM
^ yep. I'd agree with that.

It's far easier to de-wing Spits than it is to dewing the Mustang, which is quite ironic considering the number of complaints about wings 'falling off' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also, the Spit is definately quite capable of running with engine damage for an appreciable amount of time. I cannot honestly recall the last time I hit a Spit and caused the engine to sieze but maybe it's the case that the Spit engine DM is, in fact, a little 'uber' and the Mustang engine DM is, in fact, normal.

Cheers,
Norris