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View Full Version : AI performance is worse than ever



sledgehammer2
12-23-2006, 07:24 PM
I was really hoping for some improvement here. But it just doesn't seem to be in the cards. In quick mission dogfights I end up hanging from my prop while the enemy is doing zoom climbs from 500 ft above to whatever. I want to try to love this thing but I just can't believe these guys can't get this at least partially right.

Have they not heard our feed back for the last God knows how long? It looks like they replaced the idiot neg G maneuvers with even more ridiculous climbing and speed ability. It made a bad situation unbearable - at least for me.

I don't want to rant but it is extremely frustrating. I guess I just need to give it up and focus on model building.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

A war correspondent in 1944...
"For sheer brutality and fatigue, Peleliu surpasses anything yet seen in the Pacific..."

VW-IceFire
12-23-2006, 07:32 PM
So three quarters say its better, a few say its worse, and the rest of the people haven't noticed. Probably not as big of a deal as you're making it out to be.

Anyone who thinks AI is easy should punch in "artificial intelligence research difficulties" on Google and start reading.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/icefire-tempestv.jpg
Find my missions at Flying Legends (http://www.flying-legends.net/php/downloads/downloads.php?cat_id=19) and Mission4Today.com (http://www.mission4today.com).

knightflyte
12-23-2006, 07:53 PM
I can't even begin to fathom how hard it is to program AI. That is one reason I do cut the AI some slack. I'm more disheartened than anything. You betcha I'll still line up on the runway to face the UBER AI. (It's not that they're so smart......but they're so dang clever with engine management and energy effeciency! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif)

I myself don't think AI has gotten worse, but it hasn't improved either.

Rule #1 with me if it's not fun, then don't play it. It's STILL fun, though frustrating at times.

I've really been taking time to just really fly around....practice engine management again.....fiddling a little with stick preferences.....and looking at the new maps.

In a way it's a new discipline. Instead of concentrating solely on the kill aspect of the game I'll work on squad management..... or practice bombing... or... design a few missions... or heck, maybe even try online warfare.

I've finally reloaded Storm Clouds I last night. I'll give it a fairer go round this time despite my problems with AI.



There ain't to many other options for the feeling of flight (without a pilot's license of course). I can't get that from modeling or even R/C modeling. So.......I'm sticking around.

heywooood
12-23-2006, 08:13 PM
I have set up a quick 2 v 3 in the FMB useing the Manchuria map, I and my winger are flying the Ki27
and the enemy has 3 Chaikas - I used airbase object #4 in the middle of a clearing next to a river...The AI wing man has no trouble taking off and forming up, and when I order him to 'cover me' he goes much higher and gets a real advantage (much better than before) and when ordered to engage, he does so right away...

The command to 'rejoin' after combat is answered and done....
The 'break' and 'return to base' orders given just past the last waypoint before landing are executed and the AI landed on the rough base without incident...

As far as enemy AI goes - it is a mixed bag of realistic non combat formation flying, and the somewhat unevenly executed ACMs that have been commented on here at length.

The bottom line is that, while it isn't always what you would expect the planes to be capable of, we've all seen online contestants do some pretty tricky stuff and heard the complaints about FM's etc...so my take on it is this :

I am not an expert or a war veteran so I don't know what each plane with an expert pilot at the controls could do - so I can attribute it to some AI piloting code innacuracies (or limitations if you like)and some sim FM code innacuracies (or limitations again) and say that the sum total is a challenging adversary.

Could it be better? Sure.
Is it a show stopper? No way.

The AI can do an awful lot of realistic stuff and behaves overall in a solid and competitive way....and when was the last time a flaming spiraling bombers gunner kept firing accurately in your direction?

Many issues have been fixed or adjusted and that is all we can ask. Its time for SoW and I am sure it will be much better because it will be built on lessons learned in Il2/FAP.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/afewofTheFew-1.jpg

A few of The Few

SeaFireLIV
12-23-2006, 08:55 PM
Icefire wrote: "So three quarters say its better, a few say its worse, and the rest of the people haven't noticed. Probably not as big of a deal as you're making it out to be."


WRONG.
The fact is the AI used to be better! It used to have a realistic feel. I have been a few years vet of FB, I was in the vanguard, praising AI, I wouldn`t say something was seriously wrong with AI if there wasn`t. Yes, AI was never perfect, but it always kept to within realistic parameters. Everyone knows I don`t expect it to have all the weakness of a Human; we know the AI must cheat.

But this is different. AI is doing things that just in your face clearly looks wrong. I speak about the anti-grav zoom from no energy.

The reason why some haven`t noticed it is because most here are more bothered about plane types and FMs and how it all affects ONLINE play, not offline. These things are QUICK to see and comment on.

It`s only been now (a week later) that the true offline players have had a chance to give the AI a run (which takes more than a few days to do properly).

The truth is AI fly like Star Wars aircraft in many respects. It used to be better and it can be made better.

But, Icefire, i guess the shoe is on the other foot now, isn`t it? Before you hated the supposed `wobble` that I didn`t see as a problem and now I hate the `star wars` anti-grav AI that you don`t see. Perhaps the truth is you fear that if AI is bought back to a more realistic level your `wobble` may return?

I digress.

Point is AI is wrong and this is why since 4.02\3 I`ve only flown IL2 online regularly which is a sad state of affairs. IL2 now feels like an ONLINE-ONLY sim, not an online AND offline sim.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/LIVeyes.jpg
"If it burns, it is confirmed."

Ivan Lukich Zvyagin

sledgehammer2
12-23-2006, 09:51 PM
It is not my intention to start a fight here. I watched the bonus dvd this morning, and I thought it was great seeing Oleg and his team. Look guys, I think the man is a genius, ok?

There is so much in this sim that is amazing, and believe me, I wish that this didn't bother me like it does.

I know that nothing is perfect. That's just the way life is, but I can't help feeling disappointed.

I have dabbled in on-line flying but not much. The truth is I suck at it and always end up getting killed pretty quick. With the good servers going to 4.07 I hope to maybe try it some more - I got pretty frustrated with the 4.04 arcade servers, and I never got 4.05.

But off-line flying will always be important to me, and I just wish it was with more realistic AI.

I know there is enough whining going on. Like I said, I think Oleg is a genius. I'd love to just be able to sit down and have a few beers with that guy. When I was a little kid in the 70s I couldn't imagine having something like this to play with.

Oh well, sorry for rambling on.

Sledgehammer2<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

A war correspondent in 1944...
"For sheer brutality and fatigue, Peleliu surpasses anything yet seen in the Pacific..."

heywooood
12-23-2006, 10:07 PM
I agree WRT the 70's - Pong was really cool http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And as far as Oleg being a genius, well - the P-51 performance would indicate that he is human, but overall I think he has a nice idea of what I was dreaming of for all those years.
Those guys have really brought it to life for us to a large extent, this affection we have for flying and fighting in warbirds over virtual fields and oceans. For that I am grateful.

When I think about those early years of computers and the distance we have come I am amazed. But it has been over 100 years since Orville and Wilbur built the 'Flyer' and its going to take a few more years to get AI to emulate human responses properly - and also to get computer gear and software to the level where it can model flight dynamics and gravity in real time along with atmospherics and ballistics etc....so we wait...and think of how long ago all we had was Pong - It was much less than 100 years.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/afewofTheFew-1.jpg

A few of The Few

Skycat_2
12-23-2006, 10:19 PM
SeaFire vs. IceFire ...

Kewl!

knightflyte
12-23-2006, 10:55 PM
IL2 satisfies the Walter Mitty in me. As a kid of the late 60's and early 70's flight was always something I loved. I remember looking up for hours waiting for planes to cross above.

Building models of these WW2 aircraft was another way to reach out for the taste of flight with my imagination.

R/C aircraft was fun. I don't do it any more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

So now we've got some pretty spiffy computers and a very talanted team developing a game that gives life to Walter Mitty. Me with my cap and goggles chasing an axis pilot to fight a fight of not so certain outcome. Will I live or will I die?

In this vein the game SHINES head and tails above expectations. LOVE IT!

MrMojok
12-23-2006, 11:06 PM
So on your opinion, how is the AI ***compared to what we had in the last version, before '46?*** Remember their spastic no-blackout barrel-rolling, etc.

Do you think this is an improvement over that, or a step back?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://members.cox.net/f1dude/P51_sig.jpg

Badsight-
12-24-2006, 12:15 AM
the single best fight ive ever had against an Ai was in the 06 beta patch for v4.00

at least the Ai are not the snipers they were from v1.xx patches<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1741/shindendrawflight66os.jpg

mautsi2
12-24-2006, 12:53 AM
I agree that AI is done very well,good job Oleg and team.
Use Veteran AI,Ace with it's excellent deflection shots is a bit too uber for me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Monty_Thrud
12-24-2006, 02:55 AM
http://premium1.uploadit.org/bsamania//IL2M_W061223_201009_C06122320100865.jpg

...btw the Hurricane is also appalling, one touch of the stick and wing tip trails appear, this aircraft has no power...it should not fly.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://premium1.uploadit.org/bsamania//beatup.jpg
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif..http://premium1.uploadit.org/bsamania//2006-02-23_012924_pilot11.gif ..http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Soviet Fighter Tactics (http://luthier.stormloader.com/home.html) Merlin (http://www.spitfire.dk/Chapter5.htm) The Doors (http://www.thedoors.com/index.cfm?fa=home1)
DA! (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/index.htm)
WWII Links (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/index.htm)

SeaFireLIV
12-24-2006, 06:43 AM
I don`t mean to argue with anyone, I just don`t like seeing us offline players being treated like we see nothing. It`s just depressing to see the sim I so loved go backwards with its AI. Also, I feel as if we offline players are being ignored. It`s as if Oleg said, "Screw realism offline, just make the AI extra good and let`s concentrate online stuff!"

Truth is BOBWov now has better AI by far.

Anyway, it`s Christmas and I will not argue on until after Christmas. So peace and....

SO MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/LIVeyes.jpg
"If it burns, it is confirmed."

Ivan Lukich Zvyagin

DarkWingDuck...
12-24-2006, 07:50 AM
Last night I tried a online coop,
my flight of IL10s (well the 3 that were still with me as I approached the target) dropped their bombs in the sea and turned for home...we werent even under attack
So I dont know what the "I" stands for????????<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

QUACK

knightflyte
12-24-2006, 07:55 AM
I don't think you're being argumentative at all, Seafire. I understand and feel somewhat the same way. I don't wanna be left behind because of online play. Even if it's just a perception that online play is of more value to the developers, that IS what it feels like to offliners in a way.

I realise there are difficulties in AI development. If 4.01 - 4.03 were pretty decent in AI FM and Energy retention in comparison to 4.04 then why the big difference now? I pulled back to earlier versions because of this.

I won't revert back now as there SO much in '46, that going back to 4.01 - 4.03 would be foolish.

I'm going to really make a VERY concerted effort to just fly offline learning how to maximize my planes effectiveness. So instead of me biotchin, at least I can say it's NOT me, and I'm doing the best I can with what's given. I've learned how to fly the planes, but I never really took the time to master one. So my expertise comes at the price of learning in battle. Not the best way. That doesn't mean the AI's not messed up though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

It won't dampen my enthusiasm for the game. I'll still play it.

cawimmer430
12-24-2006, 07:59 AM
The AI sucks, I agree.

Once, I did a perfect shot into the rear gunners face of a B-29 Superfortress with the MK-108 prop cannon from a BF-109G-6. I did a fast rear attack and fired 3 salvos of 30mm ammo into the rear gunner.

What happense?

He still shoots at me and hits my engine and makes it stop dead. Bull****. I hit the guy with 3 MK-108 cannon bullets, right in the face (used my lead gun sights in zoom mode). Guy should have been more than dead. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

AI... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

-Christian W.

http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/8240/il2sig018ll.jpg

DKoor
12-24-2006, 08:22 AM
A quicky little Ai inspection...
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7213/a6m2vsbuffalomkicf9.th.png (http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=a6m2vsbuffalomkicf9.png)
(don't let v4.05 number confuse you - data is v4.07)

So here is track (http://rapidshare.com/files/8789729/407-kunaa6m-vs-4xbuffalo_eg.rar.html). In superior ship such is A6M one would expect an easy fight when 1 v. 1. But sad truth is that unless he turns on me I don't have ANY chance to catch him up on deck chase (me in A6M and Ai in Dutch Buffalo Mk.I, that would be U.S. designation F2A-1).

I just tried silly QMB fight N1K vs. 4xACE Yak-3_Vk-107. LoL they've BnZed me for about 10mins and I was unable to get a clear firing solution on them, nor they were able to get me, after a while I was tired of it... draw. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Energy madness, they are basically looping all around my aircraft with t0ns of energy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Also some Ai "skills" such as this have always been around, AFAIK:
Cheating in terminal dive speed (http://rapidshare.com/files/8792770/CHEAT-zero-dive.zip.html)

edit**

Originally posted by RegRag1977:
How many guys you could read here saying Ai is too stupid! Some of them said it was possible for them to kill 16 of them in one QMB mission when set on ace, seeing them as überexperten, mocking Oleg and team...Remember. That was only possible because of the ridiculous way AI used to engage, i think. +1 agree.
I have achieved that - it wasn't easy but I've managed it. Spitfire Mk.IX vs. 16xBf-109K, I've shot down 12 of them other four have fled, some of them damaged.

Ai is still joke as far as "toughness" is concerned the real problem now is to catch Ai. Nothing else.

So it wasn't that Ai *is* spoiled Ai *was* spoiled and still is, the only thing that has changed is our fun-factor which isn't as big as it used to be.

So in this regard I would like better "old" totally crippled Ai than this energized but still stoompid Ai since it suits for most users better. I'm personally indifferent since it isn't a big issue for me in my campaigns, I still shoot them down like a bunch of headless flies.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<hr class="ev_code_hr" />http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5638/g14hartmannlh1.jpg (http://airwarfare.com/mediawiki-1.4.5/index.php?title=Main_Page)<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">@ STURMOVIK?: 1946 - coming November 2006 in ETO and Australia

slipBall
12-24-2006, 08:23 AM
I hate to be a spoil sport, but I enjoy 4.05 AI....Set to ace they are a real challenge, most times I give him a later superior aircraft...there are two rules that work for me
1...keep him in view as much as possible, if you loose him, look were he should be

2...antisapate his next move....this is difficult, but possible<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/orders.jpg

RegRag1977
12-24-2006, 08:25 AM
But this is different. AI is doing things that just in your face clearly looks wrong. I speak about the anti-grav zoom from no energy.

TRUE



The truth is AI fly like Star Wars aircraft in many respects. It used to be better and it can be made better..

I agree on your points, nobody, i think, can disagree the fact that AI cheats too much, and reacts poorly, even to a simple situation.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gifI think the new Ai when it came with 4.04 or Peshka was an attempt to improve the game and not only an unwanted result of correcting wobbles.

Alas, never before these patches AI cheated like now.

But Ai before wasn'nt (as you said) perfect at all. In the past, it was TOO easy to win altitude advantage upon AI enemy (even set on ace)even with a poor dogfighter like Me109G6,Fw190A vs multiple Yaks3 or Las7, or Hayate Aces. We could win advantage straight after crossing them, pulling up a candle as they were turning hard and loosing speed. After these very first moments we knew we would win the fight comfortably. We could boom them as many times as necessary.

How many guys you could read here saying Ai is too stupid! Some of them said it was possible for them to kill 16 of them in one QMB mission when set on ace, seeing them as überexperten, mocking Oleg and team...Remember. That was only possible because of the ridiculous way AI used to engage, i think.

Engagement is the most difficult thing to model for AI, and in the past it was clearly, for me, the weakest point of the AI. Everytime AI engaged poorly and lost the fight...

Now this problem of AI turning hard stupidly and bleedind all his energy to engage after crossing has been corrected: AI has no energy limitation, and always has the extra boost from nowhere. That means that having altitude advantage is absolutely useless (they can be in your six coming close and still accelerating after a long and sharp candle to meet you...(Try now to kill 16 of them... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif)

This energy modeling is annoying for all offline pilots who didn't play for the figures exploit but just for immersion.

Wouldn't it be possible to allow AI to have an Energy bonus only in the begining of the fight, to let him have his chance and then, after few seconds, giving them the same limitation as in the past patches so that humans can win an advantage position?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gifWould it be possible to make fighters in the QMB start with their real cruise speed instead of the 300 KPH for all http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif, that giving advantage to the "light turners"?

Just some ideas? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Regards!