PDA

View Full Version : Ship Anti Air. Overmodeled.



XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:54 AM
Maybe this have been discussed before, I saw no mention of this in the list of thing corrected in the coming patch. (maybe I missed it)

The ships AA is too skilled. They are to devastating, I find it impossible to attack an enemy port without heavy losses or getting shot down. It takes many tries. I have still to succeed.

This is not fun when theres a 10-20 minutes flight to the target. then one can sit all the day on the same mission and still not succeed.

Today I was flying an IL2 on over 2000meters altitude, there was very bad weather so the water below me was not visible even as low as 500meters or something. Very bad visibility.

Still the single boat below me shoot very accurately straight through the clouds and scored several hits. (I got leaking fuel tank) Now this particular incident is not in any way realistic.

I dont mind Heavy AA, but this is too hard, and I dont think that it was this difficult to engage a ship/port compared to engaging an airfield in real life.

What are other peoples opinion?

What do other players do on these impossible missions?

--
"Too late ... No time."
Concorde pilot Christian Marty, moments before the supersonic jet crashed into a hotel in Gonesse on the outskirts of Paris.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 12:54 AM
Maybe this have been discussed before, I saw no mention of this in the list of thing corrected in the coming patch. (maybe I missed it)

The ships AA is too skilled. They are to devastating, I find it impossible to attack an enemy port without heavy losses or getting shot down. It takes many tries. I have still to succeed.

This is not fun when theres a 10-20 minutes flight to the target. then one can sit all the day on the same mission and still not succeed.

Today I was flying an IL2 on over 2000meters altitude, there was very bad weather so the water below me was not visible even as low as 500meters or something. Very bad visibility.

Still the single boat below me shoot very accurately straight through the clouds and scored several hits. (I got leaking fuel tank) Now this particular incident is not in any way realistic.

I dont mind Heavy AA, but this is too hard, and I dont think that it was this difficult to engage a ship/port compared to engaging an airfield in real life.

What are other peoples opinion?

What do other players do on these impossible missions?

--
"Too late ... No time."
Concorde pilot Christian Marty, moments before the supersonic jet crashed into a hotel in Gonesse on the outskirts of Paris.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:02 AM
It is changed in the patch.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 01:24 AM
Have a read /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zvubl&tpage=1

<fontsize=2>Unofficial IL-2 Community FAQ (http://mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm)
<fontsize=2>Hunter82's Tech Pages (http://mudmovers.com/tech/tech_pages.htm)

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 03:49 AM
fromsweden's question is right on, although it's been asked before. Ship AA is far too accurate and powerful in FB and I hope some future tweak does address it. With current modelling, it is absolutely impossible to simulate an attack on multiple surface ships without being shot down before you are even in sight of target. If you were attacking a late-war US task force with radar-directed AA, maybe, but the Marat and a couple of DD's????

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 04:53 AM
- Tweaking and perfecting the FM, to match the aircraft landing and altitude characteristics (including climbrates) closer to the original.
- Reworking the code of aircraft engines for more realistic performance (including prop pitch).
- Adjusting aspects of aircraft and engine control.
- Reworking sound to bring up a new quality engine sounds, as well as other effects, and extended support of the EAX.
- Revising weapons lethality and produced effects.
- Revising damage model on some planes.
- Adding new flyable aircraft (in a separate add-on).
- Reworking models and adding more details into the damage models of AI aircraft that are becoming flyable with addition of new cockpits.
- Optimization (rework) of online code for fast transfer of data (especially for modem users and long distance lines).
- Adding more eye-candy into the game.


So where is the part about AI gunners, especially the AA?

Your link pointed to page 1, is the answer on page 1?


Neal

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 05:01 AM
EURO_Snoopy wrote:
- Have a read /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- <a
- href="http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-
- topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zvubl&tpage=1"
- target=_blank>http://forums.ubi.com/messages/messa
- ge_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zvub
- l&tpage=1</a>
-
-
- <a href="http://mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm"
- target=_blank><fontsize=2>Unofficial IL-2 Community
- FAQ</a>
- <fontsize=2>Hunter82's Tech Pages (http://mudmovers.com/tech/tech_pages.htm)

Glad to hear it. I am getting very ticked off about getting nailed dead on while in the middle of a thunderstorm at 2000 meters by some incredibly accurate ship or flak battery.


&lt;script>c2="#444839";c3="#000000";c4="#444839";c5="#444839";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor=c2;a[a.length-3].bgColor=c3;a[a.length-4].bgColor=c4;a[a.length-5].bgColor=c5;a[a.length-8].bgColor=c5;image="http://www.themenkey.net/~vecdran/il-2.jpg";oa=a[a.length-2].style;oa.backgroundImage="url("+image+")";oa.backgroundPosition="left center";oa.backgroundRepeat="no-repeat"; var VecAvatar='http://www.themenkey.net/~vecdran/A.gif'; var a=document.all.tags("img"); for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=VecAvatar;a=document.all.tags["td"); for[i=0;i<a.length;i++) if[a[i].innerHTML.indexOf["vecdran")!=-1)ii=i</script>


<center>http://www.themenkey.net/~vecdran/brushedmetal.gif

<table style="filter:glow[color=#33CCFF,strength=4)"><TD><font color="#white"face="americanabt">Professional Plane Staller</font></table></center>

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 06:37 AM
the aaa is fine, it doesnt need to be with good aiming, a flack gun can damage u evern if they trow shells 10 metters from you, they are like granades, and ship aaa, is extremly powerfull besides they dont only trow u the aaa guns but all they have,, fly low and c those main cannons blast u off


"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 01:40 PM
Well..

If you take light anti-aircraft weaponry, ranging from 12.7 to 20 mm, and try to shoot at a plane flying in about 500-3500 meters away from you, having a velocity of 200-500 km/h and direction of travel straight above your head, you'll notice how very difficult it is to hit a moving target.

The light AAA was only effective against planes that were making a strafe run or flying a pass REALLY close by. Consider the fact that the plane is actually moving very fast (even 200-300 km/h is FAST, almost the speed of an F1 car), and if it's making a strafe, it's moving at even greater speeds (up to 600 km/h). The chances of hitting the plane are very low. Even if you were an expert marksman.

Then let's take the more heavier AAA, like tower mounted, feet-operated 2x 40mm defense mounting. First, it takes you 4-5 seconds to do a 360 degree turn. Then, it takes even more time to raise & lower the barrels. Only with extreme luck (or pilot's stupidity to fly straight towards you) were you able to score a hit.

The AAA in Forgotten Battles is way overmodelled. It is far from realistic. If you think otherwise, try going to the army and shooting a standard, non-scoped 7.62 rifle to 300 meters. That already is pretty difficult, and the target isn't even moving..

-Celorfie

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 02:51 PM
Russian statistic from WW2: Torpedo bomber live 4 sortie at average... And keep in mind, not every sorty he is attaking an battleship. I feel what ship AAA as a whole is quite realistic, at least its not too strong. In RL you should have 50+ planes to try an attack against big ship.

If you want attack an battleship with 1 escadrilia only... you deserve to die.

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 04:24 PM
Real large shell AA with fragmentation bursts had timed shells unless you were late war allied and then proximity only to the front in 75mm and larger, the 75mm at least used in later years and may not have been miniaturized enough even in WWII.

Attacking Battleships close in alone, yes dangerous. But when they see through clouds or make perfect shots at passing planes many km away is different. They ID you and start shooting in an instant, it is ridiculous. How many rounds of AA did it take in history to down a single plane? Many 1000's. In the sim they aim with radar using automatic guns and computer tracking worthy of very modern warships... except that they don't do predictive aiming so well, the scattering of shots ahead of the dodger.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 11:05 PM
here's what was posted on another site


http://oldsite.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=001444

AAA [accuracy ratio] decreased. Especially on ships.
AI gunners - Novice mode [accuracy ratio] decreased. With other don't agree many other players. Just try to play Il-2 online. But in real life just FW190s had a chance to attack from upper halfsphere.... Bf-109 - only from low sphere. Just for the sample, if you really read [accounts from] German pilots.
FMs tuned with more [precision].
EAX - sorry it wasn't our bugs. Finally we are in contact with Creative and did new simplified EAX driver.... It sounds well, but does not contains what [was] promised in the SDK...


They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..
General John Sedgwick's last words spoken while looking over the parapet at enemy lines during the battle of Spotsylvania in 1864

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 12:20 AM
also why do the ships have so many tracers i have a huge library of naval battles and you do not see tracers from the anti aircraft or the main deck guns. Ship aa isnt to bad dont try to out climb it dive down and get more speed the faster you go the better chance you have of not being hit. an AAA choice of 3 aaa modes is needed to make everyone happy, novice, experienced, expert

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:02 AM
No Shiet!!!!

http://www.roush.org/rausch1.gif


http://www.roush.org/rausch1.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 04:54 AM
Chromatorg wrote:
- Russian statistic from WW2: Torpedo bomber live 4
- sortie at average... And keep in mind, not every
- sorty he is attaking an battleship. I feel what ship
- AAA as a whole is quite realistic, at least its not
- too strong. In RL you should have 50+ planes to try
- an attack against big ship.
-
- If you want attack an battleship with 1 escadrilia
- only... you deserve to die.
-
-


Not the same thing. First of all, torpedo planes were not very effective against armed ships, period. They were slow and level and easy to target since you have a great range indicator (water). Diving attacks were more effective since they provided greater angular motion with respect to the gunner (see Battle of Midway where the torpedo planes were all shot down). On the other hand, a Swordfish torpedo bomber disabled the Bismark's rudder...and I don't recall many casualties among the attackers. Tell me that the Bismark didn't have a crack crew and wasn't heavily armed... What is being discussed is not just torpedoes. We are talking about boats anywhere on the map. They have incredible accuracy at extreme range. This is the "Golden BB" bug in the AI gunnery, but applied to lethal 20 mm weapons. The first round will hit you square in the cockpit at extreme range. You might avoid it by jinking BUT THE AI WON'T!!! It will fly straight to its death. The US Navy had the best AAA defenses in the world with air superiority and a radar picket destroyer screen, yet poorly trained kamikazi's repeatedly penetrated the screen. I've posted the number of USN rounds (per caliber) expended per kill before, and it figured to something like 5 minutes of continous firing by the full armanent of two destroyers using proximity fuses and radar, just to destroy one kamikazi plane. In the Falklands War the Argentines repeatedly penetrated the UK fleet air cover and missiles and guns using A4 Skyhawks. Fortunately, something like 50% of the bomb hits didn't detonate because they were flying too low and too fast to arm properly.

We presently have a decent model of the Phalanx anti-missile system. Needs a patch.

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 06:31 AM
That and the fact that the Argentine Skyhawk groundcrews had incorrectly fused the bombs, and in one case forgot to fuse them at all. Then the BBC did a nice report on this during the war and all the raiders bombs where correctly fused.

Don't you just %)%)(*# love the media during time of war.

RedHarvest wrote:
-
- Chromatorg wrote:
-- Russian statistic from WW2: Torpedo bomber live 4
-- sortie at average... And keep in mind, not every
-- sorty he is attaking an battleship. I feel what ship
-- AAA as a whole is quite realistic, at least its not
-- too strong. In RL you should have 50+ planes to try
-- an attack against big ship.
--
-- If you want attack an battleship with 1 escadrilia
-- only... you deserve to die.
--
--
-
-
- Not the same thing. First of all, torpedo planes
- were not very effective against armed ships, period.
- They were slow and level and easy to target since
- you have a great range indicator (water). Diving
- attacks were more effective since they provided
- greater angular motion with respect to the gunner
- (see Battle of Midway where the torpedo planes were
- all shot down). On the other hand, a Swordfish
- torpedo bomber disabled the Bismark's rudder...and I
- don't recall many casualties among the attackers.
- Tell me that the Bismark didn't have a crack crew
- and wasn't heavily armed... What is being discussed
- is not just torpedoes. We are talking about boats
- anywhere on the map. They have incredible accuracy
- at extreme range. This is the "Golden BB" bug in
- the AI gunnery, but applied to lethal 20 mm weapons.
- The first round will hit you square in the cockpit
- at extreme range. You might avoid it by jinking BUT
- THE AI WON'T!!! It will fly straight to its death.
- The US Navy had the best AAA defenses in the world
- with air superiority and a radar picket destroyer
- screen, yet poorly trained kamikazi's repeatedly
- penetrated the screen. I've posted the number of
- USN rounds (per caliber) expended per kill before,
- and it figured to something like 5 minutes of
- continous firing by the full armanent of two
- destroyers using proximity fuses and radar, just to
- destroy one kamikazi plane. In the Falklands War
- the Argentines repeatedly penetrated the UK fleet
- air cover and missiles and guns using A4 Skyhawks.
- Fortunately, something like 50% of the bomb hits
- didn't detonate because they were flying too low and
- too fast to arm properly.
-
-
- We presently have a decent model of the Phalanx
- anti-missile system. Needs a patch.
-
-
-
-



http://cragger.freeservers.com/images/il2_sig_1.jpg