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View Full Version : Who or what were the AVG?



Philipscdrw
10-20-2004, 07:11 AM
Just curious. Someone mentioned they have hand-built engines and custom gunsights.

Philipscdrw
10-20-2004, 07:11 AM
Just curious. Someone mentioned they have hand-built engines and custom gunsights.

BSS_Goat
10-20-2004, 07:14 AM
American Volunteer Group
Americans fighting the Japanese for China

spoonfish
10-20-2004, 07:14 AM
AVG = American Volunteer Group.

Fought in China against the Japanese, I think before the US was officially at war with Japan. Also known as the Flying Tigers.

Chuck_Older
10-20-2004, 07:23 AM
In a nutshell:

The AVG were the Flying Tigers. A Time magazine article actually dubbed them "Flying Tigers"

100 H 81A-2s and American Volunteers from the Air Corps, Navy, and Marine Corps gave Chiang Kai-Shek of China an instant airforce. The American pilots resigned their US commisions and semi-covertly went to china, where the Warhawks were waiting.

Some of them, like "Ajax" Baumler, had pretty strong convictions about countries being invaded by aggressors. He had previously been a fighter pilot in the Spansish Civil War, and had resigned his US commision th fight in the conflict. he had 4.5 victories in Spain!

AVG stands for American Volunteer Group

By the time Pearl harbor happened, the AVG was a cohesive fighting force, ready to take on the Japanese.

They had several well publicised battles in which they performed incredibly well.

By July 4th, 1942, the AVG was assimilated into the USAAF. Only 15 or so pilots stayed past their contract time (the AVG was on a Bounty Contract basis, you got 500 dollars US for each confirmed victory over an enemy aircraft), and ultimately only 5 I think actually stayed in the USAAF.

For example, the real Charles Older was a Marine aviator who joined the AVG. He had 10 kills in the AVG, and then accepted a USAAF commision. He scored a further 8 victories flying P-51s with the US Army.

I don't know about "hand built" engines any moreso than you could consider most a/c engines of the time to be 'hand built' as no factory robots existed, but I do know that Allison tech reps would visits the various AVG bases such as Kunming, to help get the H-81A-2's engines running at their peak.

At some times, ground crew were not available to the AVG at some remote bases, they sometimes flew out to forward airfeilds in pairs to conduct ops for a week, then fly back to a main base. During that week, the pilots were their own armorers/crew cheifs/mechanics!

Chuck_Older
10-20-2004, 08:23 AM
Oh, and as for gunsights...I wouldn't quite call the ring and bead "custom". It's not as if they had any gee-whiz gunsight like a K-14. Quite the opposite in fact

r0bman
10-20-2004, 08:49 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif
speechless.

how can you not know about the AVG?!?!

please see my sig for lots of info (and pics http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

DuxCorvan
10-20-2004, 09:34 AM
Actually Baumler also fought on a Bounty Contract basis in Spain. He was to earn 1000$ for each enemy plane shot down. He was shot down in July 1937, and returned in August to the USA. He flew Polikarpov I-15 and I-16 in the Lacalle and Kosakov squadrons. He was at least credited with 2 He 51 and 2 Fiat CR.32, and, since it's unlikely he ever got his reward, Spanish Government owed -and still owes him- 4000$.

Six kills more in China and after credite him with 11 victories.

He died in 1973.

http://boozers.fortunecity.com/lolos/226/image43.gif

r0bman
10-20-2004, 10:19 AM
along the same lines, what have we heard about a Burma map? I know we'd need a little more along the lines of earlier japanese planes, but the map is the biggy. I didn't see it in the final map list... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Chuck_Older
10-20-2004, 10:22 AM
I am fearing it was too big to be on the PF discs and it was omitted. Maybe in the patch? I dunno.

I've been using Lvov for my AVG missions. At least there's a lot of wilderness type areas and some hills

Tobus75
10-21-2004, 12:23 AM
Great book about the AVG and beyond (AVG was made a normal USAAF pursuitgroup after official war since Pearl Harbor, not flying as chinese but as US)

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S079X~ser=ACE~per=2

Philipscdrw
10-21-2004, 06:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
I don't know about "hand built" engines any moreso than you could consider most a/c engines of the time to be 'hand built' as no factory robots existed, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Rolls-Royce jet engines are still handbuilt by a team of about 5 engineer/technicians, or at least hand-assembled.

BTW I did know of the Flying Tigers, but I didn't know their formal name AVG.

Thanks for answering!

LEXX_Luthor
10-21-2004, 07:17 PM
Use south~east Kuban map for China (lower left corner). Major Chinese mountains...but no Chinese rivers. Best map over the FB.

AVG operations described in brutal detail here...click 1941.

~ http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/sino-japanese.htm

http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/images/chinastar.gif http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/images/japansun.gif



Thanks for that Spain story Dux.

VW-IceFire
10-21-2004, 09:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by r0bman:
along the same lines, what have we heard about a Burma map? I know we'd need a little more along the lines of earlier japanese planes, but the map is the biggy. I didn't see it in the final map list... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We've seen Rangoon (Bruma) on the maps list for a while and its not there anymore. So its probably one of the maps yet to come.

Oleg mentioned that a couple of maps and planes were due out soon after release.

This map holds dual purpose...Spitfire VIII's with the RAF fought over this area late in the war.

Flatlander1961
10-21-2004, 10:42 PM
Read the book "God is my copilot" Its written by one of the main guys that led the Flying tigers/AVG.... very good read. P40's against Zekes I think they had better than a 10:1 kill ratio

Burnin_777_AVG
10-21-2004, 10:43 PM
Hey..and don't forget the 777 AVG in Russia! http://777AVG.com

BV

Chuck_Older
10-22-2004, 05:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flatlander1961:
Read the book "God is my copilot" Its written by one of the main guys that led the Flying tigers/AVG.... very good read. P40's against Zekes I think they had better than a 10:1 kill ratio <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Welll...there's no real proof the AVG ever shot down a Zero, is there? Almost any single engined, low wing monoplane the Japanese flew in the war was called a "Zero"

Chuck_Older
10-22-2004, 05:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Use south~east _Kuban_ map for China (lower left corner). Major Chinese mountains...but no Chinese rivers. Best map over the FB.

. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rivers was why I was using Lvov http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

jgur1
10-24-2004, 08:07 PM
The AVG were a group of volunteers, mostly Americans, led by Gen Clare Chennault and were formed quite abit befor the States got into WWII officially... They did a very commendable job against pretty good odds...The rest yu can read in the forum.

LEXX_Luthor
10-24-2004, 08:49 PM
P~40 needed altitude advantage. Commendable job not possible without millions of Chinese ground observers (Kissenger/Bush were wrong to reduce Chinese births starting 1970s). Something to keep in mind as we pester Oleg about BoB and Beyond...Chinese ground observers and telephone lines first organized by Soviets in late 1930s and already they were allowing Russ pilots to get into air early and jump Japp formations and fly bombers to safety "off the map edge" during airfield attack.

LEXX_Luthor
10-24-2004, 09:26 PM
forgot http://www.boardy.de/images/smilies/kopfpatsch.gif

Also think of asking Oleg for active placeable Aussie Coast Watcher Objects (ACWO) for the mission builder in BoB and Beyond (the "beyond" part here...not for BoB itself). AI aircraft flights must be programmed to respond to ACWO. Aussum!

(1VB)YAKMAN
10-24-2004, 10:22 PM
Heres their Offical website. A few of the Original's & their kids are there everyday. They are VERY freindly & helpfull.

AVG Offical Website (http://www.flyingtigersavg.com/)

Chuck_Older
10-25-2004, 05:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jgur1:
The AVG were a group of volunteers, mostly Americans, led by Gen Clare Chennault and were formed quite abit befor the States got into WWII officially... They did a very commendable job against pretty good odds...The rest yu can read in the forum. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mostly Americans?

Are you sure you're not thinking of the Composite Air Wing? AVG piloys were US servicemen released from active duty to fly for China.

Many Chinese pilots flew aircraft that were EX-AVG and still had AVG markings, but if you can name an AVG pilot that WASN'T an American, I would appreciate you telling me his name.

I think you have seen a photo or something of a Chinese pilot flying a P-40 in AVG markings that was really part of the CAW

DIRTY-MAC
10-25-2004, 05:45 AM
that is true,
and by the way,I think the most common fighters
the AVG saw was Ki-43s Oscars
and ki-27s
and some ki-44s

VOL_Mountain
10-25-2004, 05:36 PM
Our "Name Sake" The American Volunteer Group!

I had to bump this thread!

FYI, Anyone wishing to fly in an AVG uniform in the Pacific battle we are planning, send me a message or make a post on this site:

"The Volunteers" Home (http://avgvolunteers.bravehost.com/home.html)

"Rising Sun" Online War (http://www.nightbomber.com/IronSkies/index.html)