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View Full Version : Stalls and spins... Over violent in general?



XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:13 AM
Alright. Let's talk abouts the stalls and spins.

Since people keep telling me they are realistic, and that I shouln't complain, I am making an apeal to those who do know about these things to inform us all as to whether real life stalls tend to be this violent. It seems to me more of your stalls ought to be more gental, and only a few really hard.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:13 AM
Alright. Let's talk abouts the stalls and spins.

Since people keep telling me they are realistic, and that I shouln't complain, I am making an apeal to those who do know about these things to inform us all as to whether real life stalls tend to be this violent. It seems to me more of your stalls ought to be more gental, and only a few really hard.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:45 AM
The only problem i can see is that it doesn't compensate much for the speed of your plane. If you go into a stall at high Gs going 700 Kilometers and hour... its gonna be "violent". They seem to be about the same however no matter how many gs your pulling or how fast you entered the spin. Stalls seem to be OK. A little too abrupt I think at times, but after the 1.1b patch its like flying gliders so who knows.

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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:29 PM
Well, the "stalls" of this sim are actually not like stalls at all, they are more like a snap roll, and they then lead to spin (most people here call a spina stall)

no amount of rudder coordination, or footwork will keep a stalled plane in this sim on an even keel. In real aircraft this is possible, and doing this prevents a spin. Rovery from a stall is simple. . . in reality a plane that is within its weight and balance limits will fly itself out of a stall. . . you just need to get the nose down, and airflow over the wings. So I would sort of agree on the techinality that the current "Stalls" are over done at low airspeed. At high speed the current modeling seems pretty good. Even when the pilot is skilled at maintaining coordinated this usually doesnt prevent a wing from dropping, many of these aircraft will drop a wing aggresively. . as I said. . even when in coordinated flight! Now, a quick footed pilot should however be able to keep the snap from developing, and a only a few degrees of attitude change should occur, whereas in teh sim I find that many times I roll nearly 90 dgrees before I can level teh wings. This is in my book nitpicking when I consider that no other sim out there comes close to the accuracy of these accelerated stalls, and in light of that, I have to say that I would not agree that this is worth complaining about at this point in sim development.

Keep in mind that most all sim pilots are performing accelerated stalls, and these are pretty darn accurate!



Now, the spins are actually not nearly as violent as those in the real world, especially in these aircraft. That said, the recovery from these maneuvers is not as sure as it is in real aircraft. The current patch version introduced this peculiar tame spin, impossible recovery thing in the 190. . . when I say tame I mean a clean entry, nose low and autorotaion without oscillation. . . input of recovery inputs doesn't always recover, as if the spin had an aggrevated entry, and went flat to a tail low attitude.

My overall feeling though is that FB has tamed most of the aircraft, and rewarded those pilots without finesse, who like to be able to pull the stick against the stop without resulting in a departure from controlled flight . . . and this is simply wrong when after a realistic flight simuation.

Fly IL-2 ver 1.04b to know what was the best rendering of accelerated stalls, and spins out there.



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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:34 AM
~S! Grey, it depends on how you stall and depart the machine, how you got there and many variables. For the most part the spins you may be exposed to in most general aviation aircraft, in a training environment are tame.

Not so however if you set up an accelerated/cross controlled departure. I use to practice accelerated departures in Cubs and Citabrias, approaching from WOT in a climbing turn and would see a one turn snap roll and enter the second turn during which the nose was falling throught the horizon, before a I could start any recovery ( until I got use to it) from that type of departure. Tried the same thing in a friends two place Pitts... whole new world...... quicker.

In high powered birds, departing from an accelerated, will be quick enough to disorient you. And no, the sim doesn't do much justice to a spin in RL, it could but I don't personallly feel that we have enough computing power to duplicate them in this platform.

There are several stages to spins. Quickly they are from memory, incipent, stable, accelerated, crossover, and inverted. In an Acro bird, built for it you can experience the whole gamut. In training with limited machines that are certified for spin under a utility cert. or aerobatic cert. you'll under see ( under normal circumstances if your smart) incipient and the beginnings of stable spin. One will see stable spin development ...depending on the machine, anywhere from 3 to 6 turns.

I use to demonstrate these in instructing days gone by.If I saw the student begin to approach a fully developed spin I'd say the words I'VE GOT IT, and recover immediately, as I did not want to leave the student after the next commands, if things didn't work out..........( yep always worn a chute doing spins and in a plane we could exit)

Most pilots, unless they've had military time or Acro in purpose built machines, have not experienced the full range of spinning.

I've said above that the sim can not reproduce what a RL spin is like..... but it does give one a good represntation of what it looks like from inside the machine and some of the differences inherent between the aircraft in the sim. That sez alot for the complexity we see in FB.

Can the spin entry and character of these machines be violent, not all, but the the ones that ought to rattle your eye balls from an "accelerated entry" seem to be the FW 190's, the P-39, P-40, early lagg, and Mig, the late La's as they had tremendous excess power available.... and the Mustang when loaded at higher combat weights. The Pony was a "Gemini", with two seperate personalities. The Jug would depart quick if pulled too hard but recover just as quick.

What we do not see represented is something called the torgue roll and I'm not sure 1c can duplicate it, so I'll not say more.

Summary, sims don't fly like airplanes this one though is the best I've seen.

Are Stalls/spins over violent.... No.

Regards:




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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:50 AM
it does seem like dynamic stalls are in the FM which is a nice touch if true


one thing I have not come across in FB is any tendency to spiral dive





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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:53 AM
hi
from what i ve read the 190 was the only okl to have a vicous snap stall,now even the 109s do it.i d have to agree with the above post,i thought the stalls were pretty well
modelled in il2 w/ patch 1.04.i don t think its very good
with this first patch.hopefully it will get better.

After it was refeuled i climbed in.With many manipulations the mechcanics started the turbines.I followed their actions with the greatest of interest.The first one started quite easily.the second caught fire.In no time the whole engine was on fire.Luckily as a fighter pilot i was used to getting quickly out of the cockpit.The fire was quickly put out.The second plane caused no trouble - Adolf Galland (first time in a ME262)

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 03:54 PM
Although I never piloted a WWII fighter, I did considerable training while obtaining my Commercial Multi-Engine Instrument Pilot's License.

From this experience I can tell you that different planes react differently to controlled stalls. Some planes will keep you fighting to keep them striaght during your power on stall. Other's will make it easier to prevent spin entry.

But if you take a Cessna 152 which is your basic trainer, you will find that she wants to spin, so if you do not fight to keep her straight, she will snap into a spin, and when she starts spinning, she does not come out of it alone unless you power down, apply opposite rudder and ailerons neutral.

Other planes like the piper Arrow III are not authorized for Spin training, but I can tell you that when you stall one, it takes less effort to keep striaght than the Cessna 152.

When I intentionally put the P-39 Q in an incipient spin (multiple spins), I found that getting out of the spin was very realistic. A rule of thumb is that it takes twice as much time to get out of a spin. SO if you make rotations which last 10 seconds, expect breaking out of the spin with proper technic in 20 seconds. This held true with my P-39 test.

I believe that WWII fighter's demonstrate voilent spin characteristics.


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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 04:45 PM
I started a similar thread about spins in the OOR

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zuuxx

I feel that the techniques required to get out of a spin are too hard compared to RL and that having to drop flaps/ gear and shutting down the engine or gently rocking the plane using the ailerons is not a realistic way to exit a spin.

But Im always open to new ideas/experience.

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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 06:32 PM
Interisting. Do you think they come on over quickly? Just a lil....?

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 06:42 PM
In full real settings EAW the spins and stalls were MUCH MUCH WORSE!!! (I'm not saying this was good or correct...it's just that they were tough to break out of)

FB spins and stalls are much more manageable at full real settings

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