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TankerAce
11-13-2005, 04:20 PM
Up to the Japan Campaign in my offline career, flying a P-47D-27. I get on the tail of a Ki-43, and rake him with a 5 second burst. I see the hits, I see bits and pieces fall off his plane, and he goes into a spiral. He then recovers, gets behind me, and after a one second burst (and I only heard two hits), he shoots up my cockpit, then shoots up my wings, my tail, and my entire plane with his 2 7.7s. Now, I hit him with a continual 5 second burst with 8 .50s, and he was still flying, and he downs me with a 4 second burst from 2 7.7mms. That just doesn't make sense.

Also, does anyone have any tips for flying the Jug? Any time I do a slight turn, it stalls, and I can't recover. Yet planes like the P-40, P-39, etc I have no problem stalling and recovering at will.

Thanks.

|CoB|_Spectre
11-13-2005, 05:05 PM
One of the more enduring discussions related to this sim is whether the planes are accurately modeled. A search of Oleg's Ready Room on just about every airplane model will point to such discussions going back to the origin of the game. Most of us try to compare the anecdotal information we glean from books and interviews with WWII pilots with the sim experience. Much has been said about the Jug's lack of killing power, lack of dive acceleration, lack of toughness and it has improved over the time with some patches. The new "150 octane" P-47 seems to perform closest of the Jugs I've read about in books like Robert S. Johnson's "Thunderbolt", except the performance boost he talked about came from the paddle-bladed prop, not higher octane fuel. So, to answer your question, yes...according to some opinions. Oleg's team does not put much weight behind anecdotal information, choosing instead to rely on engineering data to derive what they perceive as a correctly flying model. Whether they're right or wrong, is in the eyes of the beholder.

fordfan25
11-13-2005, 05:53 PM
i think the DM and the dive rate's are the biggst offender as far as the p-47 goes. but i think its a matter of just about every thing being a little outa wack. and what i mean by this is like the argument on the .50's for those that feel thay are to weak, is it a matter of them being to weak or the DM on some of the planes being to strong or the dm not being complexe enough to allow for fires failers ect. another words i dont know if its that a f4u is diveing to slow or the zero is diveing to fast. all i know is a zero should not be catching up to me in a dive. "all though thay do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif" same with the dive in the 47. spits catching them or keeping up with them in servers like 334th afj. 109s as well.

DaimonSyrius
11-13-2005, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by |CoB|_Spectre:
One of the more enduring discussions related to this sim is whether the planes are accurately modeled.
(...)
to derive what they perceive as a correctly flying model. Whether they're right or wrong, is in the eyes of the beholder.

Excellent review and summary of most disputes, archived or ongoing, in these forums, IMO. Well done, Spectre, S' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Cheers,
S.

FritzGryphon
11-13-2005, 07:38 PM
Now, I hit him with a continual 5 second burst with 8 .50s

I'd venture a guess of 2 hits, and 478 misses, if the Ki-43 was still flying afterward. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bearcat99
11-13-2005, 07:41 PM
Consider using arcade mode to see where your shpots are going. I think the 50s are decent now.. and the new P-47 is better.. but IMO it is lacking in the toughness dept..... but it isnt a show stopper.. at least not for me.

VFA-25_Peckens
11-13-2005, 11:09 PM
are u trying to turn fight the ki43s with the 47?

TankerAce
11-13-2005, 11:51 PM
Ok, I'll try some of those things.

As to the turn fight, no way. Not in a Jug. I dived, and got on his tail. As he pulled up in a climb, I pulled up too, raked him, and he spiraled downwards, and as we were at 1,000 feet, I declined not to pursue (figured he'd dig a hole). Instead, he recovered, got on my tail, and since I can't turn worth a dang, and had no altitude, I was a sitting duck. He shoots out a wing so bad I can't control her, I stall, and boom.

I watched the track, I saw about 30-35 hits on his wing and fuselage, and 2 or 4 I think on his cockpit. (Had a bad gunnery day). What made it ackward for me is with a P-40C (I added it to the campaign) I was able to knock fown a Ki-43 with the same amount of hits, and it has 2 .50s and 4 .30s.

In the interim, I have switched to flying a WIldcat in the USMC campaign, and noticing that it is far easier to fly and fight with. Still get shot down, but for some reason I'm able to use the F4F-3's 4 .50s better than the P-47s 8 .50s.

WOLFMondo
11-14-2005, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by TankerAce:


Also, does anyone have any tips for flying the Jug? Any time I do a slight turn, it stalls, and I can't recover. Yet planes like the P-40, P-39, etc I have no problem stalling and recovering at will.

Thanks.

Adjust your stick settings so its allot smoother, if your using the default settings it will not help controlling stalls. The Jug is all about smooth controls, maintaining a high hard deck and not being suckered into a fight with better turning aircraft.

Don't listen to those guys who say it can't dive either, you just need to be diving from 15,000-20,000 ft, not from 2 or 3,000 ft where that weight and HP advantage can't really be used.

chris455
11-14-2005, 01:08 AM
RE: the Jug, only the P&W R2800 engine is undermodelled, and then only in the survivability department. I'm a Jug lover from waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back, and IMO, all else is well with the great beast in PF.

IMHO, 4.02 has been very "kind" to the Ki-43.
I'll leave it at that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hit him at convergence range and he'll blow up. Promise.

Don't lose heart. Flying the P-47 successfully is very different from most other A/C. Learn how to do it right and the rewards will be great.

Professor_06
11-14-2005, 01:45 AM
The Oscar has been given very very generous damage model. It is very tough to bring down with fifty cals. Its a DM thing. It can be done but you feel like you are shooting 22s.

I had the pleasure of going to the McMinnville Evergreen aviation museum. (Spruce Goose) They had a fuselage of a downed Zero. I ws able to get close and touch the thing. The aluminum alloy is thin, light and brittle. The planes are designed like ultralights. Spars are fragile. My impression was they are very very fragile. You could see fifty cal holes in the thing. Zeros stands for Zero protection. Oscars are the same construction. Eight fifty should shred them.

Professor_06
11-14-2005, 01:52 AM
when you stall you shut off the throttle. opposite rudder blah blah

HotelBushranger
11-14-2005, 02:02 AM
What I discovered, last night to my immense annoyance, is that the A6M2-21 has turned into a Jug. I had made a mission, with a P-40 (myself) 2000 metres higher than a top cover of Zeros. Well, I dived through the top cover, hit one and got a fuel leak, then dived to the lower flight, 2500 metres below. When I reached them, I was at 670kmh, and when I looked behind me I found the leader of the top cover flight right, and I mean RIGHT on my tail; after the entire dive. Utter bollocks.

MiamiEagle
11-14-2005, 06:47 AM
Gentelmen no Sim has or will ever have the perfect planes models of World war two era. Thats simply impossible. As you guys should know by now. The more information you read about this planes the more confuse you get.

Pilots of this planes are the least reliable sources of informations since they for the most part fell in love with their planes.

Thus they became very emotional about the performance of their particular planes.

Many refuse to give up their planes for upgrades. Many German pilots refuse to fly in with Fw190 and give up on the Bf109 when the Fw190 become more numerous.

The same thing happen with some Pacific and European U.S. squads.

We do not understand the complexcities of the Air war as well as we think we do.

Just because some pilot wrote that the P47 could out dive a Bf109 it does mean it always happen that way and under every circumstances.

For example if the Bf109 pilot unticipates the P47 is going to dive and starts the dive before the P47 pilots does it will some time before the P47 separates with safe enough distance between its self and the Bf109. By that time it could have receive some damage from the enemy.

The same thing will happen with straight speed distance.

For example when I first started to fly in the Sim world with CFS1 and CFS2 I would get very frustated when I would try with my P38 to run away and could not speed or out run away from a persuing Zero.

Once I almost quit the Sim World because of this. I did not understand the dynamics of the Air war at that time as well as I do now. Iam not a expert nor will ever be one. But I do understand them better now.

Its just takes time to developed separartion and in the mean time the enemy craft can and will damage your plane.

Distance from your base and altitude plus fuel and climate conditions make a difference. Coditions of the encounter with enemy and the skill of the enemy encounter all make a difference in what happen and its result of encounter. This are just a few of the preconditions of airial combat on weather you will be successful or not.

Just bacause Johnston or any other wrote that the P47 or any aicraft could do this or that better than the enemy it was never as easy or clear cut as they wrote it.

Just remember airial warfare was three dimentional and its not like two cars with machine guns fighting on single plain surface.

Just keep this mind when we make comment on this subject.

Miamieagle

WOLFMondo
11-14-2005, 06:56 AM
MiamiEagle, get that post stickied!

Professor_06
11-14-2005, 09:30 AM
Miami. Its good to relax a bit but you miseed the point. Diving away from a zero is not the same thing as diving away from a 190. The quick dive separation doesnt exist in the sim. What Oleg did was to limit the top dive speed of the Zeros. That is not historically or technically correct. This has been discussed and tested back in the 3.01 patch days. In the sim you are not getting separation because of diving ability, you are getting separation due to higher top speed. I hope gravity gets a better algorithm in Bob.

I think the poster is pointing out the the dead astern DM for the Oscar is FUBAR. It does act like it is armoured from the rear. Very tough to flame the Oscar or Val.

I fly offline. The AI is pretty dumb and cant do deflection shots. So I stay fast and do multiple high level passes. i dont get shot. Both the unarmoured Zero, Oscar and Val seem as tough as LW planes. Tony is very tough too. I was shootinng the heck out a tony, was thinking the 50s were weak so I shot at my wingman in his F4U, a short burst and the F4u was shot in half. LOL. I blew the tail off a six ton allied fighter with a short burst. LOL

But try to get a kill in a Val or Oscar. I think its toughness it out the need for gameplay. IMO.

WOLFMondo
11-14-2005, 10:08 AM
I thought Tagert proved there was dive seperation (it might have been someone else but someone did a load of fancy charts).

If your fighting AI its different, give up now, they cheathttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Dunno where you get this tough zero from. The Val is pretty tough but the Zero? That plane is so easy to down its laughable.

ElAurens
11-14-2005, 11:02 AM
A little story about a sortie on Spits vs. 109s last night...

BlitzPig_Rocket and I are on the Ardennes map.

It is the Battle of the Bulge.

Weather sucks, German armor is streaming in from the East.

Rocket and I hop in the late P47Ds with 150 Octane boosted engines, load 1 1000lb. and 2 500lb. bombs, 50% fuel and go looking for the Fascist bastages. We find the main German advance and proceed in typical BlitzPig fashion to bomb and straff the living **** out of it. We are merrily at work when we are jumped by some Jerrys. All flying 109K4s. I'm not sure exactly how many there were owing to the loooooow clouds and the general confusion of a low level engagement. Rocket gets a 109 on his six and calls for some help. I firewall the Jug and head that way. The Kraut (even had a "JG" in his tag) was all over Rocket and firing his elephant gun. I fire a burst that causes him to break off Rocket and I give chase He is twisting and turning, but I don't follow his tighter maneuvers, I just raise the nose when he yanks the stick and drop down on him again on the other side of his crazy twisting.
I get a solid hit on his left wing which slows him up quite a bit, then I get hits on his fuselage and right wing, then he make a real mistake. He trys another bat turn, but with the damage I've doled out to his crate he departs and drops into the trees and explodes.

Rocket and I turn for home. Then this defeated JG types in the chat bar: "I'm out, all you do is fly Spitfires....."

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

The P47 can be very effective.

Professor_06
11-14-2005, 11:17 AM
I remember those charts i think but the charts showed the separation was negligible AFAIR. I did some complaining about the Zero v F4F in a dive and starting from 250 IAS to 450 IAS they bothed took the same amount of time in a straight down dive. Around 500 the early Zero began breaking up. the "no redline" F4F didnt begin to crack up until 550-575. So initial sep was not there. Still not fixed but limitation in FM IMO keep it unfixable. Zero is the least tough ofthe Japanese fighters. I think im refering to its reistance to flame. Sometimes it flames easy and sometimes its impossible

Professor_06
11-14-2005, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
A little story about a sortie on Spits vs. 109s last night...

BlitzPig_Rocket and I are on the Ardennes map.

It is the Battle of the Bulge.

Weather sucks, German armor is streaming in from the East.

Rocket and I hop in the late P47Ds with 150 Octane boosted engines, load 1 1000lb. and 2 500lb. bombs, 50% fuel and go looking for the Fascist bastages. We find the main German advance and proceed in typical BlitzPig fashion to bomb and straff the living **** out of it. We are merrily at work when we are jumped by some Jerrys. All flying 109K4s. I'm not sure exactly how many there were owing to the loooooow clouds and the general confusion of a low level engagement. Rocket gets a 109 on his six and calls for some help. I firewall the Jug and head that way. The Kraut (even had a "JG" in his tag) was all over Rocket and firing his elephant gun. I fire a burst that causes him to break off Rocket and I give chase He is twisting and turning, but I don't follow his tighter maneuvers, I just raise the nose when he yanks the stick and drop down on him again on the other side of his crazy twisting.
I get a solid hit on his left wing which slows him up quite a bit, then I get hits on his fuselage and right wing, then he make a real mistake. He trys another bat turn, but with the damage I've doled out to his crate he departs and drops into the trees and explodes.

Rocket and I turn for home. Then this defeated JG types in the chat bar: "I'm out, all you do is fly Spitfires....."

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

The P47 can be very effective.

I agree the "Late P47" is a good one. The extra speed makes it almost realistic. It can nearly catch a Dora in a race. LOL ..but that is a funny story.

Grey_Mouser67
11-14-2005, 11:43 AM
Dive modelling has been off...as Professor noted, with engines on you'll find that diving accelaration is very similar in all aircraft with overall dive performance being directly proportional to top speed. This is incorrect.

We're not talking pilot accounts here either, it is plain physics. Thrust and mass work in additive fashion in the dive where in the climb thrust must overcome gravity acting on mass. There are other forces at work too, but plain and simply put...heavy planes with high horsepower will out accelarate and outspeed aircraft that are lighter and/or less thrust...period!

That means that Jugs, Lightnings, Fw's, Tempests, and Mustangs can out accelarate and outdive lighter, less powerful planes like Spitfires, Bf109's, Zekes, Yaks etc...it is plain old physics.

It is not modelled well in this game, hasn't been modelled well and probably won't be at this stage. It is a handicap to all aircraft that are fat like the Jug....they lose a good portion of their offensive and defensive capability so they are less effective in game than in real life.

We just have to figure out how to overcome it and lobby Oleg to change it....AI seems to be able to overcome dive restraints better than humans so it is important to note in these conversations whether we're talking offline or online....the Zeke definitely accelerates in the dive just as fast as a Hellcat...I have the bullet holes to prove it

Von_Rat
11-14-2005, 11:53 AM
agree 100 percent

DIRTY-MAC
11-14-2005, 12:03 PM
changing the the prop blades angle can help the dive acceleration,

TankerAce
11-14-2005, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by chris455:
RE: the Jug, only the P&W R2800 engine is undermodelled, and then only in the survivability department. I'm a Jug lover from waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back, and IMO, all else is well with the great beast in PF.

IMHO, 4.02 has been very "kind" to the Ki-43.
I'll leave it at that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hit him at convergence range and he'll blow up. Promise.

Don't lose heart. Flying the P-47 successfully is very different from most other A/C. Learn how to do it right and the rewards will be great.

Is suppose its one of those practice makes perfect kind of things. I'll get it eventually.... or crash up the entire production run, one of the two http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

TankerAce
11-14-2005, 01:32 PM
I think I'm starting to get used to it now, thanks for the tips.

Set up a quick combat, 4 P-47D-27s vs 4 Ki-43IIs. I hit one in the engine in a frontal pass, and he bailed. Second one I got in close, shot off his rudder and raked his wing, and he crashed.

Set up another one with the P-47D (the new one). Got close, gave one a squirt (on his tail) and he started streaming fuel. I let him fill the gunsight completely, hit him with full .50s, and his plane fell apart (It didn't explode, but it jsut fell apart). So I guess my main problem was I was firing too early, and not getting a cood concentration of all the guns. That and I was being too hard on the stick. Now that I am more gentle, the '47 doesn't stall as bad.

gthgrrl4game
11-14-2005, 03:03 PM
Tanker,
I was having trouble with the P-47 as well. It is my first time trying them and things were not racting as I thought they should to 8 heavy MG's. Then I played back an offline combat and realized that the inner 4 Mg's are weapon 1 and the outer 4 are weapon 2.
Blondeness in action.
Next time I hit the 1&2 combo keys and thing blew up.
Blew up good http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ddsflyer
11-15-2005, 02:39 PM
The concentrated firepower of 8 .50 cals is immense. There should be no Japanese plane anywhere that can take more than a 1 sec. burst, much less a Ki43.

luftluuver
11-15-2005, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:


Rocket and I turn for home. Then this defeated JG types in the chat bar: "I'm out, all you do is fly Spitfires....."

He deserved to get shot down if he doesn't know a Spit from a Jug. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Nice historical manuever to get on the 109's tail. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

drose01
11-15-2005, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I think the 50s are decent now..;

Have they really changed at all? We know they are still synched, the ROF is the same, and I dont believe anyone has said that they somehow are more potent compared to cannons in 4.02.

Maybe DM on some plane types is weaker, making them seem stronger.

(beating a dead horse but fifties still seem too weak to me!)

El Aurens that sounds like a cool and successful engagement, but I think it tells more about your own skills then anything else. In general, the 4.02 K4 owns the P47: definitely outturn you, MOST definitely outgun you, and if all else fails turn that nose straight up and outclimb you.

jds1978
11-15-2005, 05:14 PM
Tanker,
I was having trouble with the P-47 as well. It is my first time trying them and things were not racting as I thought they should to 8 heavy MG's. Then I played back an offline combat and realized that the inner 4 Mg's are weapon 1 and the outer 4 are weapon 2.
Blondeness in action.
Next time I hit the 1&2 combo keys and thing blew up.
Blew up good

Rgr that, the look on my face must of been priceless once i figured that little number out myself...

i'm not an engineer nor am i a pilot. my take on FM and DM of any plane type is purely dependent upon the literature written after the war. as long as their are no gross distortions to what history tells me, i'm happy. maybe that makes me a fanboi...oh well.

the .50 cal issue remains unresolved...or more properly, a mystery. are they stronger? desynched? is the DM weaker on certain Blue AC? who knows....i do feel that i'm getting more killing power out of my F4u-1d/P40m/P51d since 4.02...

CaptJodan
11-15-2005, 06:30 PM
I've learned over the years of playing this game and lobbying, most of the times without success, for changes is that it's all about compromises. Everyone has their favorite plane, or just planes they think need to react a certain way and it'll never be perfect.

I've seen the 47 go through a lot of improvements and I think it's a lot better than it was when it started out (it was TERRIBLE back then). Given that it's A) not a dogfighter, B) that dives really aren't modelled right and probably won't be, and C) that it wasn't really a high performance fighter at low altitude (I think the sim still stuffers some from being a low alt sim from the start), the P-47 has pretty much done what it can to be a decent fighter. It's not really my kind of ride, save for one area.

If there was a problem with the P-47 that still annoys me and makes it difficult to justify flying it's that weak engine DM. To me, I use the P-47 nearly exclusively in the ground combat role (as it was mentioned it was supposed to be good at). Yet that whole engine problem really makes it hard for me to justify taking that plane out instead of the P-38 (My natural ride, almost as good a dirt mover, and the safety of two engines, Thanks again Gib). Pilot accounts are often suspect, I know, but there's plenty of good documentation of the 47's survivability, especially in the engine department, and I think this is a glaring problem that adversely affects one of the major operational points of the plane. I've had 7.7s knock out the main engine with one bullet (not right away, but it'll shoot away oil or whatever that stuff is, and you can basically kiss getting back home goodbye. This is consistent).

Anyway, it's not like other planes don't have problems. The IL-2 should be the tank of the skies in the sim, I just think that the 47 needs to move a bit closer to the IL-2 than it is to the P-51 (in engine toughness).

Prolly won't happen, but hey, at least I have my 38.

CaptJodan
11-15-2005, 06:32 PM
Added:

I should mention that I'm still working off of 4.01m. Haven't switched to 4.02, so if there is anything different in that one, specifically this Oscar of doom, then I am no authority to speak on it. (But Oscar's of doom do make me less likely to put 4.02 on)

ElAurens
11-16-2005, 05:12 AM
What is all this talk of Uber Oscars?

The Ki43 has always been an excellent turner, (only the biplanes are better), but it is still slow as molassas, and only slightly more damage resistant than the Zero, and it is pathetically armed. It's saving grace is the tube/telescopic gunsight, it allows very accurate shot placement, which is necessary for it's weak guns.

If you are losing repeatedly to Oscars online, or off, you are not flying your US planes correctly. And most of you don't. I can't tell you how many P40s I've shot down because these dim bulbs think they can out turn a Ki43.

If you stay high and keep up your speed all a Ki43 pilot can do is curse you as you leave him in the dust.

gthgrrl4game
11-16-2005, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
What is all this talk of Uber Oscars?

The Ki43 has always been an excellent turner, (only the biplanes are better), but it is still slow as molassas, and only slightly more damage resistant than the Zero, and it is pathetically armed. It's saving grace is the tube/telescopic gunsight, it allows very accurate shot placement, which is necessary for it's weak guns.

If you are losing repeatedly to Oscars online, or off, you are not flying your US planes correctly. And most of you don't. I can't tell you how many P40s I've shot down because these dim bulbs think they can out turn a Ki43.

If you stay high and keep up your speed all a Ki43 pilot can do is curse you as you leave him in the dust.

The scope does help here, true that!
Then you have a chance with the lite MG's of actually hitting something critical.
Sigh, It is a blast to fly.
Faster US planes flown well can prosper against it, like you say. It can deal with slashing attacks to degree by virtue of its really quick turns. But you only have a very little time before they are out of range http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Jug vs. Oscar=Sledge Hammer vs. Gnat
Done it offline from both sides.

Lordbutter4
11-16-2005, 10:24 AM
Lol unless im flying a 43...then even the 38L-Late is falling from the sky! I love dropping 38's with 7.7's.
As far as the 47 goes, i really got into using it in 4.01 becuase it was one of the least used planes in the ETO. Once 4.02 hit and everyone started using the new one it lost its luster to me. But from my experiences i would say yes its under rated. It just seems to slow compared to 109's(a 109 using the prop cheat can outdive a jug), and you can forget outrunning any late war axis plane. Going in groups tends to be its saving grace but finding good people to fly with is sometimes near impossible.

chris455
11-16-2005, 02:47 PM
As far as the 47 goes, i really got into using it in 4.01 becuase it was one of the least used planes in the ETO.

???????????????????????????????

Lordbutter4
11-16-2005, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by chris455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As far as the 47 goes, i really got into using it in 4.01 becuase it was one of the least used planes in the ETO.

??????????????????????????????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On spits vs 109's, 4.01 no one flew a jug. If it came up in a map i was about the only one to fly it. After 4.02 everyone started flying the new jug. I noticed about the same with warclouds.

drose01
11-16-2005, 06:22 PM
Military Channel has a feature on the P47 right now...great video and information.

And there are frequent references to the "devestating firepower" of its fifties. The aviation historian providing background said that with 8 fifties a short burst would often literally blow enemy aircraft out of the sky![sigh]

WOLFMondo
11-17-2005, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Lordbutter4:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chris455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As far as the 47 goes, i really got into using it in 4.01 becuase it was one of the least used planes in the ETO.

??????????????????????????????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On spits vs 109's, 4.01 no one flew a jug. If it came up in a map i was about the only one to fly it. After 4.02 everyone started flying the new jug. I noticed about the same with warclouds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Been flying it regularly since FB first came out!

gthgrrl4game
11-17-2005, 07:40 AM
The T-Bolt has been one of my real-life favs ever since I was little and Dad took me to an air show where the Confederate Air Force was flying one.
I will NEVER forget that sound http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif