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View Full Version : Are ALL guns undermodelled?



Jagdklinger
04-06-2005, 04:21 AM

Jagdklinger
04-06-2005, 04:21 AM
Just curious as to your impression of all air to air weapons OVERALL (NOT one specific weapon). Should all weapons be more lethal?

PS: For a fun challenge, replies to this thread may NOT use the word "porked" "overmodelled" "MG151" "50-cal" or "uber" "undermodelled" "Mk108" and "Hispano" ANYWHERE their posts.
You MAY refer to them creatively by other names and use substitute terms http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif , but all the listed words are totally verboten. (I'm trying to set a record for the first and only thread to be free of these words http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Badsight.
04-06-2005, 04:31 AM
bullets/shells in FB/PF dont have to fight thru a "atmosphere"

compared to RL they are like "Lazers" <--- didnt include that one DID YOU ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

but seriously , we also dont have half the stuff Rl planes do under their skin , things like the bf109 F4 in this canadian muesum that was downed by one 7.7mm bullet from a mig-3 . went stright into its radiator , belly landed on a lake soon after

if we had to make shots thru something that replicated the RL enviroment , we all would be sitting next to 50 Ghz machines & we all would be opening up much closer than we do now

ive gotten so many hits at 800 meters + , as well as just about everybody else who plays this game a lot , i mean thats just "wow" for that in RL

WOLFMondo
04-06-2005, 04:37 AM
I don't think there undermodelled at all. I think offline they work different to online but then thats the quirks of the netcode, latency, packet loss etc

Jetbuff
04-06-2005, 04:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
PS: For a fun challenge, replies to this thread may NOT use the word "porked" "overmodelled" "MG151" "50-cal" or "uber" "undermodelled" "Mk108" and "Hispano" ANYWHERE their posts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
German guns are definitely weaker than their allied counterparts. While part of this weakness can be explained through historical differences and other game limitations, I find it hard to swallow the current differences. If we get proper loadout for the hub cannon(s) then maybe things will start to look more historical.

JG53Frankyboy
04-06-2005, 05:43 AM
ans also the damage models count.

fly as an example a Ki43-Ib and shoot at a Hawk-81A-2 and F2A-2 from dead six - huge difference.

also the AI bombers are very different.

anarchy52
04-06-2005, 06:34 AM
I think that DM inperfection and DM errors play the important part in the perception of effectiveness of the weapons. For example:

Wing damage:
- one of the great misteries of FB DM. Some planes suffer serious performance degradation when hit by few MG rounds, others suffer performance degradation only when the wing breaks off. I-16 is a good example of resistance to wing damage.

Fuel fires:
In reality if a plane leaves multiple streams of fuel vapour and you spray it with API - good chanches of a big *WHOOOOSH*, in FB - no effect. Remember MiG-3 in earlier versions of FB. The flying Zippo. Not any more.

Engine damage:
Best if you test offwhine with Arcade=1. Shoot the LaGG-3 on the engine cowling with .30 cal or german 7,92. Then try P-51, P-40, Bf-109. Notice the difference? For fun try the P-39 engine runs with oil leak for ages with no performance degradation.

Structural toughness:
TB-3 (I doubt you could really do the things possible in FB without breaking the plane in mid air)
B-25 (fireproof, built from titanium and ceramics)
B-17 compared to B-25 is an easy kill...WTF?
some planes on the other hand have undermodelled structural strength to compensate for DM - like Zero: IRL was very voulnerable to machinegun fire due to lack of self sealing tanks. In FB lack of fuel fire modelling has been compensated by making zero structurally weak. You can't seriously believe that half a dozen or so .50 cals would break it in half?

Cooler damage:
Fastest way to kill an engine, unfortunatelly not modelled in FB (except IL-2 oil cooler). IL-2 used to be voulnerable to oil cooler damage, seems to go much further with cooler damage nowadays.

Controls damage:
Silly. Happens way too often. I'd really like to see the size of hitboxes. Playing offwhine with arcade you see funny things: I remember getting a single AP round through the aileron surface (not joints or places where you'd expect cables to be) and lose all aileron control. Probably overmodelled to compensate the lack of other types of damage.

BBB_Hyperion
04-06-2005, 07:10 AM
Its true all guns weapon effects undermodeled and aiming is overmodeled .) Asking for correction several years .

GUARD4000
04-06-2005, 07:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Its true all guns weapon effects undermodeled and aiming is overmodeled .) Asking for correction several years . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree.It is too ease to aim right now.I think the new FM will make it harder.And i hope weapons will be better in the new patch,or people will have a hard time to get kills.

TgD Thunderbolt56
04-06-2005, 08:06 AM
In the realm of this sim, I'd have to say they are decent. As a long-time shooter/reloader, I'm quite familiar with ballistics, ballistic coefficients and physics (a physics degree doesn't hurt my understanding either).

In the wise words of an old shooting instructor: "Remember...bullets don't go where you wish them to go. They go where they are aimed"

Hit what you're aiming at and the effectiveness is improved exponentially. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


TB

fabianfred
04-06-2005, 08:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GUARD4000:
I agree.It is too ease to aim right now.I think the new FM will make it harder.And i hope weapons will be better in the new patch,or people will have a hard time to get kills. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well...IRL it was far harder than in il2 to get kills..... flyers who had 100+ combat sorties under their belt and had 5 kills were considered good...

many of us get bored with less than 5 kills a sortie...

NetDaemon
04-06-2005, 08:35 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif Maybe it´s your aim that´s undermod..., errr, weaker? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

LStarosta
04-06-2005, 08:42 AM
I think all of you guys are *************.

NetDaemon
04-06-2005, 08:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
I think all of you guys are undermodelled. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


ALARM ALARM ALARM

He used a forbidden word!!!!

There goes our entry in the Book of Guiness Records http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

SweetMonkeyLuv
04-06-2005, 08:50 AM
I've been playing WW2 flight sims for a couple years now, but I'm brand spankin new to IL2 (started playing FB+AEP+PF about 3 weeks ago), so take what I say with a grain of salt.

In IL2 and in the other sims I've played, I've probably spent 70%+ of my time in the F models of the 109. As a result, I'm used to having more of a rapier than a broadsword in terms of firepower. In the other sims I've played, Franz fighting requires more discipline in gunnery. I'm used to passing on dead 6 shots in favor of shots with some deflection. I prefer high 5 or high 7 approaches where I have a sporting chance to hit the engine or the pilot. I'm used to firing short bursts from insanely close range; I don't bother shooting until I'm at least within 200m, and usually wait till I'm at 150m or less.

What I'm not used to is flying and shooting with these tactics and still coming home with few/no kills. I've been playing IL2 offline in campaign mode as a 109f2 in the central sector of the russian front, and find that even though I'm scoring hits in what appear to be the right places from the right ranges, I'm not bringing the other plane down nearly as quickly or as often as I'm used to. In 13 hops so far (only reflying a few times when I've died or gotten captured), I've only scored 9 air-to-air victories, which seems absurdly low considering all the lead I've put into enemy air. I often find myself making 4 or 5 passes on a bandit, scoring solid hits on 2-4 of the passes, only to see the bandit merrily continue to evade or fly on with nothing but maybe a leak or a little smoke trailing and no noticeable changes in their flight characteristics. The more frustrating part is that I'm watching my wingmates open up from further away, at less favorable angles, and drop enemy planes like they were bad habits. Of my 9 victories, only one was a first-pass kill (MG+cannon from very close range).

Granted, I'm not used to flying against this (Russian) planeset. For the most part, I'm ignorant about the early war VVS birds and their characteristics. On my campaign hops, I'm most often seeing I-16s, MiG-3s, and some twin engine medium bombers (SBD or something like that?). For the heck of it, I decided to try out some more well-armed rides in quick missions against those same enemies. I had no trouble bringing down enemy planes with one or two good scoring passes while in a FW190, a late model Spit, or a later model 109 (think I used the Gustav with the 30mm cannon). Even in a P40 with 50cals, I was downing the same planes with one or two passes was little/no problem.

I'm sure this has all been said before. But I was glad to read this post, and see some of the same observations I've made (like that the smaller caliber arms don't seem to do much damage). But I do believe I need to make a switch and abandon my Franz campaign in favor of one in which I get a more heavily armed ride. Its simply too frustrating to make a textbook shooting pass and come away without a kill.

PS: I gather that "Arcade=1" is a config setting in the INI file. What exactly does it do?

PPS: Are the damagable components for each plane listed out anywhere, or, better yet, are their 3D pictures of these "hitboxes"? \

PPPS: In the offline missions, is it the last person to put lead in the bandit that gets credit for the kill, or the person who does the most damage, or the person who scores the most hits?

GUARD4000
04-06-2005, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SweetMonkeyLuv:
I've been playing WW2 flight sims for a couple years now, but I'm brand spankin new to IL2 (started playing FB+AEP+PF about 3 weeks ago), so take what I say with a grain of salt.

In IL2 and in the other sims I've played, I've probably spent 70%+ of my time in the F models of the 109. As a result, I'm used to having more of a rapier than a broadsword in terms of firepower. In the other sims I've played, Franz fighting requires more discipline in gunnery. I'm used to passing on dead 6 shots in favor of shots with some deflection. I prefer high 5 or high 7 approaches where I have a sporting chance to hit the engine or the pilot. I'm used to firing short bursts from insanely close range; I don't bother shooting until I'm at least within 200m, and usually wait till I'm at 150m or less.

What I'm not used to is flying and shooting with these tactics and still coming home with few/no kills. I've been playing IL2 offline in campaign mode as a 109f2 in the central sector of the russian front, and find that even though I'm scoring hits in what appear to be the right places from the right ranges, I'm not bringing the other plane down nearly as quickly or as often as I'm used to. In 13 hops so far (only reflying a few times when I've died or gotten captured), I've only scored 9 air-to-air victories, which seems absurdly low considering all the lead I've put into enemy air. I often find myself making 4 or 5 passes on a bandit, scoring solid hits on 2-4 of the passes, only to see the bandit merrily continue to evade or fly on with nothing but maybe a leak or a little smoke trailing and no noticeable changes in their flight characteristics. The more frustrating part is that I'm watching my wingmates open up from further away, at less favorable angles, and drop enemy planes like they were bad habits. Of my 9 victories, only one was a first-pass kill (MG+cannon from very close range).

Granted, I'm not used to flying against this (Russian) planeset. For the most part, I'm ignorant about the early war VVS birds and their characteristics. On my campaign hops, I'm most often seeing I-16s, MiG-3s, and some twin engine medium bombers (SBD or something like that?). For the heck of it, I decided to try out some more well-armed rides in quick missions against those same enemies. I had no trouble bringing down enemy planes with one or two good scoring passes while in a FW190, a late model Spit, or a later model 109 (think I used the Gustav with the 30mm cannon). Even in a P40 with 50cals, I was downing the same planes with one or two passes was little/no problem.

I'm sure this has all been said before. But I was glad to read this post, and see some of the same observations I've made (like that the smaller caliber arms don't seem to do much damage). But I do believe I need to make a switch and abandon my Franz campaign in favor of one in which I get a more heavily armed ride. Its simply too frustrating to make a textbook shooting pass and come away without a kill.

PS: I gather that "Arcade=1" is a config setting in the INI file. What exactly does it do?

PPS: Are the damagable components for each plane listed out anywhere, or, better yet, are their 3D pictures of these "hitboxes"? \

PPPS: In the offline missions, is it the last person to put lead in the bandit that gets credit for the kill, or the person who does the most damage, or the person who scores the most hits? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
U are using 109f2,which has a mg151/15.That is a 15mm cannon,wont do much damage.And those 2 MG are 7,92mm and are almost useless.U will feel better when u get 109f4,which has mg151/20.That is a 20mm cannon.

And now i answer your question.
1)it allowes u to see the damage effect of those hits.
2)no
3)Usually the last man to put the lead will get the kill.In fact u will get the messege "enemy aircraft destroyed" even the bandit successfully RTB,if u have put some hits on that guy.The scoring system of this game does have some problems,which puzzle people a lot when fighting online.

F19_Ob
04-06-2005, 10:47 AM
Many of the above posters has some good points.
I'll add my piece.

I think the guns in FB corresponds well with what I've read so far.
Also various test from the time and modern seems similar in FB too.
With similar I mean that the damage varies and is different depending on gun and situation.
The same gun produced different results on the same target and distance. Like in FB.

I have read accounts where hits were made from distance as far as 800-1000m and I have been able to replicate that in FB.
A few examples are:

Il-2 pilts hitting bombers on 500-1000m aswell as groundtargets. Spraying cannonshells and mg's aswell as rockets after BnZ'ing german fighters and hitting beyond 500m.
Polikarpovs I-16's and I-15's did the same.

Bf110 and Ju88 pilots firing from 800-1000m on bombers, outside the bombergunners range, to avoid being damaged far at sea or deep in enemy territory.

Accounts of Morane-Saulnier pilots (one Finnish) who hit and killed fighters from beyond 500m with 20mm cannon.

Spitfirepilots making long cannon sprays after escaping fw190 and hit beyond 500m.
One spitfire pilot shot all his ammo in Two long sprays.


La5 pilot making long sprays from distance to hit german bombers.

Russian p39pilots spraying 37mm cannonshells on bombers and clusters ground targets from 1000m.

just a few that I remember now....

han freak solo
04-06-2005, 11:19 AM
I have to say, I think the aiming and strength of weaponry is OK for the game.

Of course, I don't have real life experience to know better. But, my joystick has enough center slop to make aiming a b*tch sometimes. And If the guns are weakened, the "game" will suffer and bore me silly to the point of not wanting to deal with it anymore. Offliners can always turn off "realistic gunnery" if they think their guns are too weak.

I think the game is plenty challenging and it seems realistic enough to be thoroughly entertaining to me.

NextBarbaPapa
04-06-2005, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jagdklinger:
Just curious as to your impression of all air to air weapons OVERALL (NOT one specific weapon). Should all weapons be more lethal?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know from aspect of playability. But from historical point of view, yes, they should be, for sure. Some more, some less, but they all should be more powerfull. (but some should also be less accurate - for example: german nose mounted 30mm cannon should be both: stronger and not so accurate)

NorrisMcWhirter
04-06-2005, 01:57 PM
Let's face it...everyone thinks the guns of their preferred aircraft could do with a boost from time to time. It's just that some groups actually get that boost whether it is warranted or not.

From reading pilot accounts (which are not reliable sources as they are mostly anecdotal), I'd have to say that what you see in the game seems to match....the anecdotal evidence.

I dispute gun camera footage as it is largely propaganda and is very likely to show 'best case' scenarios purely for that reason.

So, perhaps Hyper is right. Gun strength isn't correct it's just too easy to hit your target.

Having said that, my stats utility sometimes shows 10+ 20mm _hits_ to down certain aircraft which is perhaps a little OTT...if you consider that the average is claimed to be 5x 20mm hits this, arguably, means that I should be seeing as many '1 hit' downings as I see '10 hit' downings.

Cheers,
Norris

Arm_slinger
04-06-2005, 03:26 PM
the guns are fine, it's pilot kills that are undermodeled!, do we have anyone willing to do some tests? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

tigertalon
04-06-2005, 03:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
So, perhaps Hyper is right. Gun strength isn't correct it's just too easy to hit your target.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Norris

Well, one should never forget, that we are MUCH MUCH more experienced in flying and in shooting compared to WW2 pilots. They never had a "refly" option. We are all able to gain enormous experience in shooting, deflection shooting etc. That's why I don't think it is to easy to hit the target. In WW2, just very very rare pilots were able to hold themselves back and not shooting when enemy was in their windscreen, let alone in gunsight. They were just squeezing the trigger, hoping to hit anything...

If you would put a novice pilot, who never played any sim, and give him average number of hours for training, I am quite sure he will do no better than his WW2 RL counterparts.

Bearcat99
04-06-2005, 03:52 PM
Keep inmind too that unlike real pilots in WW2 we have no adrenaline, no fear, no fatigue, and no inertia/gravity working on us and like someone said... we have probably logged more combat hours.. I mean actual fighting hours and in some cases even stick time period.. than a lot of WW2 pilots ever got the chance.

I think the guns in this sim are good enough... although I have no experience with real cannon and MGs.... I find a lot of times I can duplicate guncam footage as far as time of fire and even rate of fire.. or in the case of some of the german lanes the look of the rounds through the air.. (smoke? )

NorrisMcWhirter
04-06-2005, 05:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
So, perhaps Hyper is right. Gun strength isn't correct it's just too easy to hit your target.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Norris

Well, one should never forget, that we are MUCH MUCH more experienced in flying and in shooting compared to WW2 pilots. They never had a "refly" option. We are all able to gain enormous experience in shooting, deflection shooting etc. That's why I don't think it is to easy to hit the target. In WW2, just very very rare pilots were able to hold themselves back and not shooting when enemy was in their windscreen, let alone in gunsight. They were just squeezing the trigger, hoping to hit anything...

If you would put a novice pilot, who never played any sim, and give him average number of hours for training, I am quite sure he will do no better than his WW2 RL counterparts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you are entirely correct. After all, would you seriously risk a real-life collision getting in as close as you might in this game or would you take a pot shots from further afield? True about the hours, too...I think back to my first session in an online DF server/co-op and just know how easy it was for people to have been killed with just a few hours experience. OK, so I hadn't been through a military flying course beforehand..but neither had the other guys online(presumably). Swings and roundabouts.

I dare say a lot of pilots forgot about their fear in the heat of the moment but self-preservation is still a strong instinct.

Ta,
Norris

Jagdklinger
04-07-2005, 07:49 AM
Thanks, guys - some well reasoned replies. Kudos to all who avoided the 'verboten' words http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif